TF443- Irwin Lower & Engine Combo

[Brian_Nelsen]

Mike

Yes I have a stake in this issue, that is why i want to make sure I am clear on the rules.

I totally agree, my involvment should have no bearing on any decision you make. Your decision however makes a difference to me.

I could not agree more that you have the best intensions for the hobby and the sport tunnel class, I have never questioned that. The IMPBA made the right choice when they asked you to be the OB director. You have the knowledge of the engines, series of engines and the strength to make tough decisions. Non of that has ever been in question in my mind.

Maybe its all symantics at this point I am not sure. I will post nothing further on this subject until we have product in hand for all to see.

Thanks

Brian Nelsen

 

[Grimracer]

I have brought this point up a number of times on this board. For a long time, people were calling the IMPBA 21 class stock. I pointed out that it is "Sport 21"..
Basically it is what it is. The rules are there and are easy to follow. If you don't like them, then don't run the class.

With that being said, I still think the IMPBA Sport 21 is a cheater's class. A go-no-go guage is the most vague definition and allows a number of modifications to be made to an engine that will never be detected.

But also with that being said..lol... The rules are there.. They are clear and as many top racers will tell you.. There are NO speed secrets.. If you have a question, just ask..

Intent, rules.. Whatever.. If you ask the question, you will get answers.

Sport 21 is what it is. Modified tunnel without a pipe...

Charley

Your right.. its Sport 21 in IMPBA... we get it.. but some still dont.

All restricted racing is subject to calling people cheaters.. hardy worth the effort ot point this out.. just look at... well... any other fourm of racing.. does this suprise you some how..?

The go-no-go gauge is hardly vague.. its a solid metic and its non changing. As far as what you can do in the motor.... you can only shove so much air in a .320 hole with out a blower.

Maybe the words Sport tunnel should be changed to Resticted Tunnel even thought the words Sport and Stock are two complety differnt words..

Thanks for your input Charley, Happy racing.

Mike

 

[waterbug]

 

Grim

 

If I was going to call you a DUMB ASS..... :angry: I WOULD SAY DUMB ASS !!!!!

YOU GOT IT.............

 

NOW WHAT IN THE HELL DO YOU NEED ME TO CLARIFY !!!!!!!!!!!!

 

ALL THIS STARTED BY ME EMAILING YOU AND GETTING A ANSWER, NOW IF YOU WANT ME TO POST THAT EMAIL I WILL.....................AND WE WILL LET THE BOARD SEE WHAT THEY THINK OF THAT EMAIL..................... :angry:

 

I WILL STOP MY ORDER AT THE POST OFFICE, IF NOT JUST SEND IT BACK I DON'T NEED IT..................... :angry:

 

WHAT I SAID TO DAVE ROACH IS IF THERE IS GOING TO BE A HEADACHE

THEN GRIM CALL A MEETING OF THE BOARD OF DIRECTORS AND SET UP THE RULES ON TIMING-CARBSIZE-EXHAUST OUTLET SIZE....MAKING EVERY ENGINE HAVE THE SAME NUMBERS.........

 

I THOUGHT WE SETTLED THIS ON THE PHONE BUT I GUESS NOT......... JUST AS I SAID ON PAGE 5 ..........I AM OUT OF THIS DISCUSSION..............

 

 

[Slideblues]

Hey Guy's

I really dont see why all the fur is fly'n here.........

Jim has said when the engines get here he will send samples to the directors of each Org for eval according to their rules, So till that happins the rest is speculation to me, I am sure we will all know the outcome this winter and will prob hear it first here at Intlwaters.

Just my perception anywho,

Gene

 

[user 115]

I genuinely don't think people running Mod tunnel have a need to cheat.. They can run whatever they want. Maybe at the top races some guys are pushing the engine sizes, but I doubt it.. If someone came out of the blue and smoked eveyone at a race, he/she would be under heavy scrutiny..

I have always just had a problem with the name Sport Tunnel as racers think they are getting into a beginner class or feel that they can buy a boat and engine and run with anyone.. Yes, I know..Set up is a lot of it as well as props.. However, there are still some engine mod's too.

Call it Super Stock Tunnel.. Or Improved Tunnel..

To me it's not about who's engine is built where or how.. To me the name is a misnomer and on the surface could potentially lead people into a class that they are not prepared to run in.

In NAMBA stock, you know what you are getting into just by the name.. In IMPBA Sport 21, it's just not as clear to me. That's all..

Charley

 

[Ron Olson]

From a person who used to run in the 3.5 OB tunnel class. I've been to many district races and haven't seen a Sport 21 class being run. The only place that I saw it was at the Internats. Most clubs in the IMPBA just throw all of the .21 OB's together, out-of-the-box stock to bad-ass mod. If there are enough people at a race to have a Sport 21 then let them! I've seen a lot of stockers or ones with just a tuned pipe added that have won purely by driving skill or not getting airborne.

My son got his first trophy, a 3rd place at his first race with a bone stock K&B on a DPI hull by outlasting modded Nova Rossi/ Lawless lower unit hot dogged boats!

 

[Grimracer]

 

Grim

 

If I was going to call you a DUMB ASS..... :angry: I WOULD SAY DUMB ASS !!!!!

YOU GOT IT.............

 

NOW WHAT IN THE HELL DO YOU NEED ME TO CLARIFY !!!!!!!!!!!!

 

ALL THIS STARTED BY ME EMAILING YOU AND GETTING A ANSWER, NOW IF YOU WANT ME TO POST THAT EMAIL I WILL.....................AND WE WILL LET THE BOARD SEE WHAT THEY THINK OF THAT EMAIL..................... :angry:

 

I WILL STOP MY ORDER AT THE POST OFFICE, IF NOT JUST SEND IT BACK I DON'T NEED IT..................... :angry:

 

WHAT I SAID TO DAVE ROACH IS IF THERE IS GOING TO BE A HEADACHE

THEN GRIM CALL A MEETING OF THE BOARD OF DIRECTORS AND SET UP THE RULES ON TIMING-CARBSIZE-EXHAUST OUTLET SIZE....MAKING EVERY ENGINE HAVE THE SAME NUMBERS.........

 

I THOUGHT WE SETTLED THIS ON THE PHONE BUT I GUESS NOT......... JUST AS I SAID ON PAGE 5 ..........I AM OUT OF THIS DISCUSSION..............

 

Sounds like you just did..lol... chill out friend.. its possible that I miss read the post or that it came off wrong.. it did not read right to me.. i was just asking a question..

Whew.. some days you just can not get a break.. Funny.. i have never been slammed on any forum this way before.. maybe its time for Uncle Donnie and a little "Reverse Action"....sorry you have to have the CD to get it..

Also.. if you think you must post an e-mail that was sent to you in confidence i can not stop you.. i stand by my words to anybody that e-mails me. To say that i have some concerns with the motor and the way that things are going is no secret. im thinking whats best for the hobby.. this does include you if you call your boating a hobby.. sounds like you might take it a tad more seriously then that.. sorry for that.. to me racing toy boats is a hobby and it will stay that way..

Regarding the order.. hate to see you get cranked like this.. to bad..not because i need the money or anything like that… its just because its an ugly outlook, attitude.. i just hate to see it..

I have no idea what your conversation was with Mr Roach.. Sounds like you guys have ideas..good… first i have heard however.. your IMPBA OBD cant address ideas without hearing them..

As far as im concerned we are still at the point of the phone conversation.. if you think that its past that its now your problem.. Sorry you feel this way.

Regards..

Mike Z

 

[Grimracer]

I genuinely don't think people running Mod tunnel have a need to cheat.. They can run whatever they want. Maybe at the top races some guys are pushing the engine sizes, but I doubt it.. If someone came out of the blue and smoked eveyone at a race, he/she would be under heavy scrutiny..
I have always just had a problem with the name Sport Tunnel as racers think they are getting into a beginner class or feel that they can buy a boat and engine and run with anyone.. Yes, I know..Set up is a lot of it as well as props.. However, there are still some engine mod's too.

Call it Super Stock Tunnel.. Or Improved Tunnel..

To me it's not about who's engine is built where or how.. To me the name is a misnomer and on the surface could potentially lead people into a class that they are not prepared to run in.

In NAMBA stock, you know what you are getting into just by the name.. In IMPBA Sport 21, it's just not as clear to me. That's all..

Charley

Charley

I agree..most do not.. smolking the others is always a reasion for "questions"..

The word Sport should not be missleading.. however it seems as it might be..to some anyway..

Sport Tunnel is not a Beginners class and this is the real reasion for the thinking...its not that we sell the class as such its that the cost, speeds and easy tuning are just what the DR orderd for the new guy..

Sport tunnel can be an Eye Opener for sure.. Todd Tribit and Gary Preusse tought me this..

Good point and the rule book is all i can point you to the help..

Cheers

Mike Z

 

[Grimracer]

Hey Guy'sI really dont see why all the fur is fly'n here.........

Jim has said when the engines get here he will send samples to the directors of each Org for eval according to their rules, So till that happins the rest is speculation to me, I am sure we will all know the outcome this winter and will prob hear it first here at Intlwaters.

Just my perception anywho,

Gene

Gener..

Thanks.. all im doing is waiting for a motor and getting slammed for it.. answering questions as i get them and getting slammed for it..

To tell you the truth i knew i would get this.. heck its all part of the

POSITION OF IMPBA OBD THAT I DO FOR FREE SO THAT OTHER TUNNEL RACERS HAVE A VOICE..

hehehehe :lol:

Grimster

 

[Tunnelbill]

Guys,

We are all friends, this is a Nasty Post ......

 

[waterbug]

GRIM

 

You think I like saying this........ you are totally wrong......Yes I could have done it different...........

 

I have been at the hospital with my wife all day for her to get the shock theropy and a nerve block.........and come home to relax and just read the forum and the first thing I read is I called someone a dumbass....?????????

 

Know if you want to edit your post....... I will edit mine and I will call you on your cell [Cheaper for me] and if I can give you my credit card # and you can send the parts on....!!!!!

 

I'm under pressure...........YOU are under pressure.........

SO WHAT DO YOU SAY.............???????? Well......A hang up on the phone.........second call .........what do I want .........TO WORK IT OUT.........

I guess its what it is ..................... too bad for me....... :lol: :lol:

 

 

 

[SayMikey]

Jim im shocked you would say such a thing,first we will run the class this weekend with 6 boats entered. While its not a huge class its as big as some of the others.My son and I have run it since it was called stock man did it need some help then. Now in its present form its a lot better.Your efforts to bring in a new engine for the outboard tunnells is great but for someone like yourself to degrade this class is totally wrong. If you dont like it run a different class He** there are 16 plus classes something for everyone. Grim I got your back keep up the good work an to all that race this class lets keep the racing tight and fun....Mikey ok i can breathe

 

[GTR]

Hi Guys

First comment - EVERYBODY TAKE A DEEP BREATH. OK now we are all friends here with a common pastime and enjoyment - model boats. Let's get some perspective.

From an outsider I would have to say I sort of agree with Charley if it was called Super Sport or Super Stock it would give a better impression to newbies of what the class was about. A lot of these people come from other RC areas where sport means beginners and slightly above beginners - this class is definitely more than that.

The standard in and out rule has a hoe in it big enough to drive a truck through. My point being we all know the limit with the OS engine is the exhaust outlet - too restrictive. There are 3 different can mufflers for the K&B SS the early ones had smaller exhaust tubes, the later ones (incl the black ones) had bigger ones. The early K&B exhaust adapter had a hole in it, the later one doesn't. So if you take the early adapter and the late can you have an effective exhaust outlet that is huge compared to the OS. IMHO this is one of the reasons people think the OS is not as good as the SS - it's all down to exhaust outlet size. If you think it doesn't matter take an SS with a holed adapter and put one withot on and radar it and see the difference - guarrantee a few mph slower. This is one place I can see that the rules are a bit open.

Just my 2 cents

 

[Grimracer]

Waterbug

I will say this.. looks like i could of over reacted to your saying that (basically) IMBPA was to dumb not to take a look at the motor at this years big event.. is this what you implied?

Heck somebody needs to show me a motor or tell me its there for me to have a look at it in the first place.. I had no idea the motor was there.. Was it? If this is being dumb then i am guilty.. i never saw a motor.. can not prove it was there.. are there pics any ware of it at the Internats?

Sorry for over reacting..

My intentions are not to make IMPBA look bad but rather to promote good times and in particular good tunnel racing..

So.. lets get back to boat racing..

GTR.. as an FYI.. OS just won the IMPBA Indy masters.. sorry but i have been beat by to many of the motors (this must have happened to you too if you race the class) to write them off.. they are fast..

Come to think of it OS Sport won US-1 in 1999.. O yea.. US-1 is a piped class and the motor was run through the stock exhaust.. No kidding.. i think he won SAW (if i remember it race just around 49mph) and oval.. and yes.. Tommy lee was racing.. was it Mike Slabey that was driving the boat... i think so.....

It won Sport also..

ROCK ON

MikeZ

 

[GTR]

Hi Grim

I love OS products as they do perform and are of the highest quality. The OS OB has had some problems with the p&l and the muffler is a bit on the restricitve side - but it is very quiet. Congrats to those guys that win and I have no doubt that is about more than engine power.

However, my point about the SS motors was that within your rules - unless I misinterpreted them you can get a distinct advantage by using the old muffler adapter and the newer muffler as it allowas a considerably larger exhaust area. I think this amounts to a minor loophole. This must to an extent disadvantage the OS as it really motors a lot better when allowed to breathe.

I realise Mark Anderson recently one with an OS OB but I can't say I know whether there are a new batch with better p&l plating or if they are just being operated by better people (probably the latter). I love my OS as it starts and runs hard without any fuss at all, and if OS were a little more interested I'm sure it can be made in to a real rocket. OK so it may never be a NR/CMB/MAC but it would have power and reliability second to none. I guess this would be wishful thinking as the market is just too small for OS to spend any R&D on a better OB. Now if only they would make a 45 size I think they could sell a ton of them.

Hey forgive my ramblings as what would I know about the US racing scene. :blink:

 

[Grimracer]

Hi Grim
I love OS products as they do perform and are of the highest quality. The OS OB has had some problems with the p&l and the muffler is a bit on the restricitve side - but it is very quiet. Congrats to those guys that win and I have no doubt that is about more than engine power.

However, my point about the SS motors was that within your rules - unless I misinterpreted them you can get a distinct advantage by using the old muffler adapter and the newer muffler as it allowas a considerably larger exhaust area. I think this amounts to a minor loophole. This must to an extent disadvantage the OS as it really motors a lot better when allowed to breathe.

I realise Mark Anderson recently one with an OS OB but I can't say I know whether there are a new batch with better p&l plating or if they are just being operated by better people (probably the latter). I love my OS as it starts and runs hard without any fuss at all, and if OS were a little more interested I'm sure it can be made in to a real rocket. OK so it may never be a NR/CMB/MAC but it would have power and reliability second to none. I guess this would be wishful thinking as the market is just too small for OS to spend any R&D on a better OB. Now if only they would make a 45 size I think they could sell a ton of them.

Hey forgive my ramblings as what would I know about the US racing scene. :blink:

Hi GTR

I dont know about Mark Andersons (Hi Mark) OS motor.. what im saying is that in IMPBA.. is if somebody wants to re-plate the liner it matters little.. the GO-NO-GO gauge can not detect this.

Just for reminders.. IMPBA Sport Tunnel is not intended for the kid, dad, grandpa, girlfriend and or second cousin.... that just bought a boat at the local hobby shop and now wants to race it. Its for the master tunnel tuner, heck, allot like master tunnel tuner and non IMPBA member Mark Anderson or IMPBAs tunnel master Gray Pruesse or new master Brad Beckner along with a host of others.. Like the other classes, if a new racer wants in, please feel free to have at, it but you do have to contend with the likes of the masters. No different then any other class IMPBA offers..

As for K+B having a distinct advantage over OS... let the wins speak for themselves. However.. make mine a K+B.. its my sport motor of choice. I also like Ofna, AMC and Michelob beer..

ROCK ON

Mike

 

[SayMikey]

Hey Grim dont forget you also like country music LOL LOL Mikey

 

[Grimracer]

Mikey.. o yea.. i forgot.. Hehehe

Sing with me...heck lets sing like Hank W Jr..

Disclamer: if you are a country music fan you best not read the lyrics below.. fair warning.. this is my twisted mind writing country music.

Now sing with me..

Give me a beer

and a tear

and big guy for my rear

to the cattle show we go..

push an old ford

thats what there for

they go from the front to the back door

to the cattle show we go..

Fill in any old country lyrics here.. there all the same...

to the cattle show we go..

Hope your well

My uint is swelled

I thought the hole in the tree was a dink hotel (dam bees) :blink:

to the cattle show we go..

stick a fork in my im done..

LETS ROCK....

Grimracer

 

[jydracing]

First off i would like to say that i have been fowlling this thread and am supprised.

first the engines that everyone is talking about here are not avaliable yet and i am sure that when jim gets them he will send one to the proper people to aprove them to be run. until this happens the only thing that can be done is to wait. All of the speculation here is uneded.

secand hi mike dude i feel for you i do not understand how anyone can place any blame on you in this. as far as i know there has not been any ruling made on if these engines are not legal to run in sport b tunnell class. only time will tell.

third here in dist 13 we do net seporate the stock and begeners the reason is there are not enough begeners to run a class on there own and i hate that becouse the begeners are the future of this HOBBY and after a few people that might be intrested in this hobby reads this i wonder if they will still be intrested.

and last but not least as for the name sport b tunnell.

as far as i know all of the orginations have rules and i feel that is a person wants to run in a certon class they should look up the rules for that class and go by them and if they do not like the rules than do not run it now it is as simple as that it does not matter what the name is. and to say that people that run a certon class are cheaters than i say prove it protest the people and let them prove that they are legal.

well that is all for now i think every one needs to take a chill pill or a shot of jack or crown and a nap and think about what they are going to say befor saying it. i guess this makes me a target now so have fun see ya jimmy

 

[Grimracer]

Jimmy

You are 100% right.. im just waiting on a motor...

what we seem to be running in to is people (like me) that are excited about the prospect of a new (potential) motor for the IMPBA sport class. I can not speak for NAMBA.. Hello o me NAMBA bros.. i would guess that they are just as amped as we are.

Being OBD for the IMPBA im not going to make a ruling on anything until i have a motor..

I have seen, watched run and touched the K+BSX. Were there 100 units made? I still do not know.. this is the first motor that im tasked with approving (hell its the first motor the IMPBA has ever had to approve for sport tunnel) and following the history of K+B it will likely make it.. All looks good but im just not sure about the 100 units made.

The Irwin motor is of a new design.. as least looking at the pictures i have of the prototype. I have question that only having a motor in my hands can answer..

Pictures worth a 1000 words right...right.. but to me its worth a 1000 questions?

For now its a waiting game and thats it.. we will wait..

Also

I have no idea how to bring new racers to IMPBA.. i say this and really have a bunch if ideas.. but i have hashed them over with fellow racers and we always concluded that its the new guy that MUST make the decision to join in.. the best we can to is make racing available to them.. in my opinion its mass markets that need to introduce the hobby to the person. .its the person that need to make the decision to race.

There is no easy answer.

ROCK ON Jimmy and thanks for stepping to the plate.. being a good friend and racing bud...

Mike