Food for thought!!

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Geraghty

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Let me preface this by saying Nitro RC boating is suffering from a multitude of maladies....

I am not trying to start a sxxt storm here...."JUST SIMPLE FOOD FOR THOUGHT"...
Nitro racing is declining and it isn't just because of FE and gas availability...
A great part of this decline is just the high cost of equipment and fuel....
The financial investment and experience required to try nitro RC boating just is not conducive to attracting new boaters...
How many of you are tired of paying $450.00 for a Novarossi 3.5 powerhead or $550.00 for a O.S. to race nitro outboards..... Outboards that could be out of production in a heartbeat....
I have been doing this for a long long time I have seen the RC nitro boating community dwindle for a long time now....
Nitro RC boating needs a good shot in the arm at "grassroots club level"....
We saw a bit of a grassroots revival a few years ago with the RTR boats like the Budweiser and Miss Vegas but that market quickly dissolved....
The next step up from RTR into nitro RC boating is a big one if you want to be competitive....
We don't see the young people coming into Nitro to keep the RC nitro hobby healthy.....It is just simple numbers...The more hobbyists that try RC nitro the more we will retain....
When David Hall and I introduced the JAE hydros 13 years ago we knew there was a ton of .12 car motors not being used so we designed a simple to build cheap boat to put those motors back in service .....
The introduction of the JAE gave a big shot in the arm to Nitro RC boating....Using that same approach we decided to try and put the million not being used .28 car motors into Nitro RC boating..
The photos you see here are photos of a prototype of a .28 outboard....If you have a 3.5 tunnel with a K&B , O.S. or Lawless 3.5 lower unit you can put it back into competitive service with a .28 car motor....
There are a bunch of 3.5 tunnels not being used because you have to put a $550.00 motor on the back to be competitive....There are 3-4 for sale on ebay every day...
What you see here is a $39.95 motor mount from Fred Howe @ Lawless Drives.This mount is completely adjustable..... Any .21 or .28 car motor with a SG shaft will fit on this mount....Mount comes with a coupler to the stock flex cables...
This pipe required a minor mod to work but more on that later...fact is it is $15.00....The car pipe [silencer] is from ebay for $15.00.....

https://www.ebay.com/itm/RC-Car-Exhaust-Pipe-Exhaust-Joint-Tubing-for-HSP-HPI-Redcat-1-8-Nitro-Car-U0W6/164021623249?hash=item26307359d1:g:HScAAOSwilNeFE9z

If you don't have a motor you can get a new one from $75.00 to around a $100.00.....Parts are cheap and plentiful....
All the car .21's and .28's Buggy motors with SG cranks have the same mounting dimensions and platforms....
The motor you see here is a $$99.00 Hobao pull-start ....I put on the roto-start just for convenience..... The carb on this motor is a Novarossi 5 port rotary carb...

https://www.wish.com/search/.28%20%204.57cc%20perfk%20/product/5a583092f707ed120cfc3e53?&source=search&position=0
https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-OFNA-HYPER-7-TQ-PRO-Engine-MAC-STAR-TURBO-6-PORT-28-28-EASY-PULL-HOBAO-OH12/142650240243?epid=2256168198&hash=item21369decf3:g:1lcAAOSw9hdaH08L

These motors are not junk....Machining and material is first class...These car motors are tortured by their owners in off road buggys & truggys and they survive and run very well on 25% nitro...

Possible rules if a Club decided to try this...

Class=.28 Outlaw Tunnel

1.Max displacement .28CI

2.No tuned pipes

2.25% nitro max....Race fuel sold by the tank at the pond...

3.Motor claim less carb,pipe and mount..... $100.00.....

ONCE AGAIN.....THIS IS JUST FOOD FOR THOUGHT !!!!

Note:I am going to post this on RC Universe also....With 640K + worldwide members maybe somebody will be tempted to try Nitro RC boating......
 

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LawlessMan

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I would like to add my 2 cents to Rod's comments. He and I talked about this mount for several days before we came up with a working design for a simple solution to the problem of mounting a cheap car motor in a boat. I give Rod all the credit for the design in the first place, I just helped turn his model into a solid part. Like the JAE design, this is a new and different approach. It uses a readily available motor - with either a pullstart or a rotostart - which are available for a fraction of what you'd pay for a Rossi or an OS. Parts are super cheap and widely interchangeable between different brands. You can put this adapter on any old K&B or a Lawless 3.5 and mount that on any old tunnel and have a boat that will run just fine against similar setups at a really low startup price. You can build a boat that you wouldn't be afraid to have your 10-year son, daughter, niece, nephew, granddaughter or grandson run wide open. I think that any kid who can try out an RC boat that will go way faster than those battery powered Walmart toys will want to do it again and see if he or she can make it go faster. Your Dad didn't hand you the keys to his Mustang and say "Take it for a spin" did he? He probably helped you find a beater, make it run and THEN handed you the keys. That's how this should work, and hopefully we'll get a new generation of boaters joining up, first just for fun, then as a new crop of competitors. By the way, if you want to use an old OS lower unit, we're working on it.
 

Joern Markset

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Oct 25, 2004
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504
Rod, this is exactly the thoughts I had 10 years ago when I wanted to put a CMB 91 onto to a VP lower designed for Zenoah engines. I even made drawings for the brackets to be made, unfortunately it was never done. In fact, I discussed this with Kjell Gunnar couple of hours before I saw this post, we discussed the posibility to put a CMB 3,5 onto a 3,5 lower as a directdrive.
In my point of view, it is a brilliant idea to have more guys trying outboard without spending half a fortune.
I predict it could be just as fun at a much lower cost.
 

RonShaw

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Rod,
I respect you immensely, so since this is a food for thought conversation here is some more food for thought. I agree with everything you said from this sentence forward.

“I have been doing this for a long long time I have seen the RC nitro boating community dwindle for a long time now....”

I think the 28 outboard would be an excellent idea and a lot of fun Just like the other tunnel classes have been. Might also be an excellent class in comparison to the sport B tunnel where everything is equal as possible. I’m interested in seeing the conversation on that portion of your statement above.

In regards to your statement before the sentence I noted above, I absolutely 100% disagree. It’s statements like these that are further damaging our hobby. The entire hobby is down as a whole. The prices on outboard engines alone isnt the reason for the decline. Do you really think the manufacturers don’t follow these forums to see what everyone is saying? Do you also think that the newbies that get on here don’t see statements like that and question the hobby as a whole? First of all I offer the OS outboard engines and parts on my site lower than anywhere in the country. I do this to help that class. Check the prices and you’ll find the same. The engine is $439, not $550 as you stated. It was $389 up until about two months ago when I had to raise the price to make sure I cover cost, freight, and taxes. I am doing this on the parts as well. Second of all as far as where the prices on the engines are concerned, this is not the issue Rod. The real issue is social media and all the other influences kids have today they did not have back in the day when the hobby was 10 times as strong as it is today. Less volume leads to higher prices. Also, looking at the prices boaters are spending on other classes (other than tunnels) across the board, its pretty obvious those that love the hobby figure out a way to stay in the hobby. There are also plenty of used engines available as well. I will also note in certain areas of the country, some clubs are having no problems whatsoever filling classes for racing. Obviously those clubs and figure out a way to promote racing in a positive way, and with a wonderful venue, are continuing to grow the hobby. Take SOWEGA, Atlanta, Huntsville, Charleston, and most recently Brandon. Those clubs are having no problem whatsoever fill in classes I’m having plenty of entries to race. Some of them sell out within hours. Why, its all about positive attitudes and making boaters both new and old feel welcome and providing a great place to race.

Again everything after your sentence I noted above, I agree with you hundred percent. But that portion before needs to be thought out more clearly in the future. If you truly want to grow the rc boating hobby, negativity like that needs to stop. Do things like the rest of your statement above, come up with new classes and new ways to make our hobby more affordable so more new people join. As you may or may not know, I now carry Carl’s 20 tunnels as well as the LeeCraft 40 Tunnels in stock at all times. In the last year alone I’ve sold over 150 tunnels so that tells me the tunnel interest is still there, but all of us just need to work harder at trying to get the sport boaters to a local club so they get help and want to join the club, and attend races. If we spent more time promoting the hobby and enticing sport boaters, no telling where the hobby would go. If not and we continue to publicly bash the manufacturers that are supplying the goods, you will see our hobby continue to decline and the newbies that read it, walk away as well. Positivity and fun is more infectious!!!! Lets spread more of it!!! Just more food for thought.
 
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RonShaw

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I would like to add my 2 cents to Rod's comments. He and I talked about this mount for several days before we came up with a working design for a simple solution to the problem of mounting a cheap car motor in a boat. I give Rod all the credit for the design in the first place, I just helped turn his model into a solid part. Like the JAE design, this is a new and different approach. It uses a readily available motor - with either a pullstart or a rotostart - which are available for a fraction of what you'd pay for a Rossi or an OS. Parts are super cheap and widely interchangeable between different brands. You can put this adapter on any old K&B or a Lawless 3.5 and mount that on any old tunnel and have a boat that will run just fine against similar setups at a really low startup price. You can build a boat that you wouldn't be afraid to have your 10-year son, daughter, niece, nephew, granddaughter or grandson run wide open. I think that any kid who can try out an RC boat that will go way faster than those battery powered Walmart toys will want to do it again and see if he or she can make it go faster. Your Dad didn't hand you the keys to his Mustang and say "Take it for a spin" did he? He probably helped you find a beater, make it run and THEN handed you the keys. That's how this should work, and hopefully we'll get a new generation of boaters joining up, first just for fun, then as a new crop of competitors. By the way, if you want to use an old OS lower unit, we're working on it.
Great stuff Fred. We appreciate what you do as well in supplying us with great lowers and accessories, as well as this latest offering for potentially yet another tunnel class. Thank you.
 

Geraghty

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May 16, 2003
Messages
1,454
Rod,
I respect you immensely, so since this is a food for thought conversation here is some more food for thought. I agree with everything you said from this sentence forward.

“I have been doing this for a long long time I have seen the RC nitro boating community dwindle for a long time now....”

I think the 28 outboard would be an excellent idea and a lot of fun Just like the other tunnel classes have been. Might also be an excellent class in comparison to the sport B tunnel where everything is equal as possible. I’m interested in seeing the conversation on that portion of your statement above.

In regards to your statement before the sentence I noted above, I absolutely 100% disagree. It’s statements like these that are further damaging our hobby. The entire hobby is down as a whole. The prices on outboard engines alone isnt the reason for the decline.

Ron,
My post was not directed at the "racer"......
I guess we will just have to agree to disagree.....If you read my post I said "nitro RC boating".....not nitro RC boat "RACING"...., but if you think Facebook is the only influence in the decline of "RC nitro boating" I totally 100% disagree....
I agree that the "racer" will come up with $$$ to get the new NR outboard to be competitive.......I also believe that 99% of the time the brand new guy that might be interested in getting involved in the hobby will not just step up and add $1000.00 to their VISA card on the come that he might like the hobby....
If you think equipment prices do not affect the promotion of the hobby you are dreaming....I know your prices were and are lower on O.S. outboards and I commend you for that....you don't have to defend your business to me....you are a great addition to the hobby.....whether or not you believe this .I don't believe you are not ground zero for RC "nitro" boating" in the world RC "nitro" boating community...You may be ground zero for RC nitro boat "racing" in North America and all "racers" know what you have and what you have to offer....kudos to that for you...
Anybody new wanting to get involved is going to go to ebay as a starting place for equipment....The O.S. outboard is $550.00 ....that is the first contact to the hobby of RC nitro boating that that is the first contact some one new will have with "RC nitro boating".........
One of the reasons I posted this on RC universe has over 640,000 members ........IW has just over 8,000..... There are a ton of nitro boaters world wide that don't even know you exist..... That is the reason we started JAE on RC Universe , it took off like wildfire and is still going strong....
As for the .28 outboard outboard adapter , this effort was not pointed at the "racer"...RC nitro boat "racing" comes later.....You got to get the new RC nitro boaters in door first...
As for being negative......since when is telling the truth being negative?????
Rod
 

RonShaw

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Rod thanks for your feedback. You say your post wasn’t geared to the racer so lets go back and read the comment again right from your post that prompted my initial response above......

Your post....“How many of you are tired of paying $450.00 for a Novarossi 3.5 powerhead or $550.00 for a O.S. to race nitro outboards..... Outboards that could be out of production in a heartbeat....
I have been doing this for a long long time I have seen the RC nitro boating community dwindle for a long time now....
Nitro RC boating needs a good shot in the arm at "grassroots club level"....”

Sounds like a very negative and straightforward attack on the manufacturers (mainly Novarossi and OS) and directed toward the racers to me. Really??? How can you say your post wasn’t geared toward racers with that comment? Yes comments like “Outboards that could be out of production in a heartbeat....” are scare tactics that are going to get a response from me. You may want to go back and change either your reply or your original post as they contradict each other. Negativity like that does nothing but hurt not only the outboard manufacturers but the sport as a whole and spits in the face of the few that still support it.

Ideas on a new tunnel class great, comments like that not so much. Thats not the “shot in the arm” our hobby needs.
 
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Geraghty

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May 16, 2003
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Ron,

1.I guess we will just have to agree to disagree...
2.My post was never addressed to the "racer"......I directed my post to attracting the possible new RC nitro boater , not the "racer"...
3.This .28 tunnel outboard adapter was not pointed at the "racer"......the racing community is already hooked.... I don't care if this adapter ever gets raced....
4.I appreciate what you have done supplying the RC nitro boat "racing" community with equipment .....kudos to you for that effort ....North America "racers" know your company exists...
5.I am sure there are a bunch of possible "Nitro RC boaters" that have no idea that Novarossi U.S.A. even exists....
6.I personally do not believe Facebook and vaping is the major cause of decline in RC nitro boating....No doubt it has an influence but just how much nobody knows....
I don't personally care....I want to know how to get exposure and get somebody to invest in RC nitro boating...RC boat "racers"come later in that process....
7.I introduced this effort on RC Universe also....That forum has 640,000 members....IW has 8,000..... By my math that is a better than 80 times better chance at exposure and to get somebody to try out the RC nitro boating hobby.......RC gas and FE are not suffering....in fact just the opposite .... they are gathering up the RC nitro drop outs...
8.RC Universe is where we introduced the JAE back 13 years ago....It grew legs world wide and continues to grow....One of the reasons the JAE effort was successful was the much lower cost tempted people to try hobby and the number of RC boaters we reached.....Go to You Tube and see how many JAES are being run and not raced.....
9.If you think hobby cost doesn't affect participation , you are dreaming....Getting the "new" RC boater interested in raising their VISA card balance by $1000.00 on the possibility they
will like RC nitro boating is a major drawback to attracting participation...
10.A new RC nitro boaters major research vehicle , because of the decline in the local hobby shop population ,will be ebay....The cheapest O.S. on ebay is $550.00...
The racer knows your prices are less , the "racer" knows this...not the newbie.....Put your O.S. outboards on ebay for $439.00 + shipping and see how many bites you get....

11.As to being negative .....when is telling the truth being negative???....The local clubs have to have something to offer that doesn't cost $1,000.00......

Like I said we will just have to agree to disagree....
I don't want to chew on this any longer.....I want ideas and possible solutions......
 
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RonShaw

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Rod if you don’t want to eat what you sow then don’t make statements like that. This could’ve been a very positive and helpful thread about a new tunnel class but you totally ruined it with those comments.
 

BullDogRacing

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Oct 7, 2007
Messages
282
Yep 100% Well Said Rod.
And just to add my thoughts as based here in Australia,
Not everyone Knows where to buy the cheap power heads or complete motors like the OS outboards Ron sells that support us racers.
Most new comers head straight to ebay looking for the deals, or local hobby shops that only sell FE ready to runs that most clubs don't support due to the amount of classes we have.
Not to far back Grim did the greatest thing, being teaming up with Aqua craft as those tunnels he had a hand In designing were In my mind, a great entry package to get boaters to feel the fun running tunnels brings before turning to a Vision , Lynx Or other.
Im sure if a company like Aqua craft revisited the idea of releasing a new tunnel with updated design and still the scale looks, things would bounce back.
 
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Jerry Dunlap

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Apr 1, 2002
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3,825
Yep 100% Well Said Rod.
And just to add my thoughts as based here in Australia,
Not everyone Knows where to buy the cheap power heads or complete motors like the OS outboards Ron sells that support us racers.
Most new comers head straight to ebay looking for the deals, or local hobby shops that only sell FE ready to runs that most clubs don't support due to the amount of classes we have.
Not to far back Grim did the greatest thing, being teaming up with Aqua craft as those tunnels he had a hand In designing were In my mind, a great entry package to get boaters to feel the fun running tunnels brings before turning to a Vision , Lynx Or other.
Im sure if Aqua craft revisited the idea of releasing a new tunnel with updated design and still the scale looks, things would bounce back.

AquaCraft no longer exists as a source of model boats.
JD
 

Mark Poole ModVP

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Nov 30, 2005
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1,246
Anything can be done at the club level, we have proven that before. Any attempt to make another nitro engine class will be worse than pulling teeth. Correct me if I am wrong but isn't this why the 'A' and 'C' classes (IMPBA) were implemented so these types of engines could be used?

Got to say this. What hurts this hobby the most is what I saw watching the videos of a race recently. X class hydro....6 boats start, 1 boat will finish. Couple times no boats finished. Bystander walks over and ask.. "how much does one of these cost?". Drive another nail in the coffin.

The question that everyone in the organization should be asking (and this has zero to do with fuel type or boat class) Why has the membership flat lined for the last 35 years?
 

Geraghty

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May 16, 2003
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1,454
Rod if you don’t want to eat what you sow then don’t make statements like that. This could’ve been a very positive and helpful thread about a new tunnel class but you totally ruined it with those comments.
I am sorry you feel that way ....but....you just still don't get what I am trying to accomplish here.....
I don't care if this effort ever becomes a organized class for racing at national level.....
I am just trying to get more hobbyists every where to try RC Nitro boating....
Maybe it will grow legs at club level....Who knows ?.....I don't know ....we will see.....
 

HTV Boats

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Nov 8, 2006
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2,174
Sticking with the food for thought theme here are a few.

Over the years at the ponds testing so many people watching have asked 3 basic questions, The first two are always how fast does it go and how much does it cost? Then if cost seems to be in their budget is where can you get one. Draw your own conclusions on how to direct them to what boats you like.
As for nitro my opinion is the JAE thanks to Rod and David and Martin has revived nitro more than any other factor. Cost and availability key here, but .12's though cheapest are not what is most popular.

Fuel and glow plugs are to model boating what coal is to the energy grid.

I still love tunnels but they seem to be the last choice of new boaters. Outboards back in the day drew people in with cost and simple rigging. Bolting a one piece ready made motor on much easier than motor, stuffing tube, strut & rudder. Simplicity was key.


Mic
 

Geraghty

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Joined
May 16, 2003
Messages
1,454
Sticking with the food for thought theme here are a few.

Over the years at the ponds testing so many people watching have asked 3 basic questions, The first two are always how fast does it go and how much does it cost? Then if cost seems to be in their budget is where can you get one. Draw your own conclusions on how to direct them to what boats you like.
As for nitro my opinion is the JAE thanks to Rod and David and Martin has revived nitro more than any other factor. Cost and availability key here, but .12's though cheapest are not what is most popular.

Fuel and glow plugs are to model boating what coal is to the energy grid.

I still love tunnels but they seem to be the last choice of new boaters. Outboards back in the day drew people in with cost and simple rigging. Bolting a one piece ready made motor on much easier than motor, stuffing tube, strut & rudder. Simplicity was key.


Mic
I totally agree with you.....Back in the day tunnels were the go to "lets try this hobby" list .by the newbies....
Now it appears tunnels have fallen off that "lets try list".....In my opinion obviously $$$ has to be a part of that equation.....
 
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