Where to buy fuel in bulk quantities

[carlnoki]

Chris;

i went to teh lake yesterday and did a bit of testing on the 21's using no nitro fuel.

engine set as follows: 21 Green Head LS

fuel mix: 15% Klotz/85% Meth.

head clearance: 5 and 6 thou.

carb: standard CMB

pipe: Brown 21 long pipe (smaller volume) and picco 7015 small volume 21 pipe with 90 degree stinger

glow plug: o'donnell red dot (hot heat range) and Tower Hobbies plug (hot heat range)

props: Grim 38-55 for breaking in

Grim 38-63

ABC 1516/3

ABC 1716 cut to 39mm dia.

ABC 1717 cut to 39mm dia.

took a bit to get the needle set for starting purposes, but with a little persuading i had it going in about 1/2 hr.

the launching was as per the norm, throttle responce was a bit slower compared to nitro fuel.

speed was also down a bit from nitro fuel (60%). with the green head is was able to get and maintain a solid 66 mph with the Brown pipe and 65 mph with the old picco pipe. The motor cooling was regulated with a wheel collar just off the nipple at the rudder blade. temp was monitored with a lazer temp gun. really had to pinch off the water to almost none at all to get the motor to heat up to a reasonable temp. (remember, its winter out there). best performance was with the o'donnell plug. head clearance finally set at .006". .oo5 was a bit too tight. pipe length set at 3" measured along side the motor to the high point on the pipe.

next testing will be with an added 5% Prope. Oxide added to the fuel mix.

if there is anything i can try for testing purposes that iam able to do folks, please suggest it to me and i will give it a go if i have it and am able to do so.

this is just a testing of straight fuel to see what the outcome is heading towards in the event ONE DAY we do happen to run out of nitro.

REMEMBER< THIS WAS JUST A TEST,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

carl

p.s. dang, i am doing more water time now than when the season was under way :lol: :lol:

 

[Don Ferrette]

Hey bill.
it is possible to runs SPEC FUEL.. but the clubs would have to hydrometer it to see what it is.. and i doubt that most would be willing to spend the time and money to do it.

Or the club provides the fuel for racing. The cost of spec fuel could be included as part of the entry fees. If the club publishes the brand and formula of fuel they're using people can buy their own for testing and tuning ahead of time. The club could even sell fuel at the race. Providing spec fuel would require a bit of work to setup and staff authorized fueling stations, but if there's a will, there's a way...

So that would mean ALL fuel would have to purchased from ONE manufacturer as even at same % levels for nitro and oil all fuels are NOT the same. It's hard enough to get clubs to hold properly organized and run races without adding this on top of it all. With the amount of fuel you'd be talking about for each race how would you know if each club properly stored and handled the fuel? What would happen if the one supplier chosen decided that they weren't going to supply fuel mid way thru a season? What if a club didn't have the cash up front to buy the fuel? Also not to mention you deny racers to ability to get together and do group buys, mix their own etc. etc., screw all that. These are not cars, we don't complete a heat on 5 or 6 oz. of fuel. <_<

Geeez, it's amazing what cabin fever does each season.................

 

[Ron Olson]

Sorry, but I find that amusing. The guy running a .21 or RTR boat would pay the same as someone running a twin .90?

Forget it and just go on to where this thread started, where to get fuel.

 

[Don Ferrette]

Sorry, but I find that amusing. The guy running a .21 or RTR boat would pay the same as someone running a twin .90?Forget it and just go on to where this thread started, where to get fuel.

Awwww, whatsa matter Ron, you don't want to subsidize my twin's fuel costs? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[El Zorro]

Great job, Carl! I'm sure everyone here can appreciate your efforts in showing us that this type of fuel actually will work. A small percentage of nitromethane ( 5% 0r 10% ) would help you with starting the engine, as you already know.

On the other hand, trying to run a race with all contestants utilizing the same fuel from a central source ( lets say 10% nitro fuel ) WILL NOT WORK in model boat racing, and I'll tell you why. 1) People won't want to pay the extra money involved in entry fees, 2) Sombody, somewhere will try to add something to their fuel to enhance their performance, 3) In order to prevent number 2 from happening each boat after EVERY heat would have to have it's fuel checked with Digitron meter ( as we do with the big race boats in the Stock classes ), 4) by doing the first three items mentioned already it will take up SO MUCH TIME that at a lot of the bigger races that are already squeezed for time in getting 4 rounds of racing in, you would be LUCKY to get in two rounds, much less three, and 5) It would require more manpower from the host club to oversee the whole fueling/fuel checking operation at each race. If you want to try this at one of your races and you have plenty of extra time to do all of this, knock yourself out..............been there and done that in Controline Speed and Scale Racing.

Dick Tyndall

 

[carlnoki]

Dick;

i agree with you on the MAJOR undertaking that would be involved in doing teh CONTROL fuel.

Like yourself, when i flew control line speed, the fuel used for teh FAI portion was provided by the host club at the proper ratio mix and was checked before and after each flight. it took time, thats for sure and we could not do that on the scale we run at boat races. we would get maybe 2 rounds in during the entire weekend IT THAT.

can you think of anything i can try for testing with straight fuel?

let me know

carl

 

[ALLAN YUEN]

Great job, Carl! I'm sure everyone here can appreciate your efforts in showing us that this type of fuel actually will work. A small percentage of nitromethane ( 5% 0r 10% ) would help you with starting the engine, as you already know.On the other hand, trying to run a race with all contestants utilizing the same fuel from a central source ( lets say 10% nitro fuel ) WILL NOT WORK in model boat racing, and I'll tell you why. 1) People won't want to pay the extra money involved in entry fees, 2) Sombody, somewhere will try to add something to their fuel to enhance their performance, 3) In order to prevent number 2 from happening each boat after EVERY heat would have to have it's fuel checked with Digitron meter ( as we do with the big race boats in the Stock classes ), 4) by doing the first three items mentioned already it will take up SO MUCH TIME that at a lot of the bigger races that are already squeezed for time in getting 4 rounds of racing in, you would be LUCKY to get in two rounds, much less three, and 5) It would require more manpower from the host club to oversee the whole fueling/fuel checking operation at each race. If you want to try this at one of your races and you have plenty of extra time to do all of this, knock yourself out..............been there and done that in Controline Speed and Scale Racing.

Dick Tyndall

h34r: Where did you get digitron meter? can tell ?

 

[Ron Olson]

Sorry, but I find that amusing. The guy running a .21 or RTR boat would pay the same as someone running a twin .90?Forget it and just go on to where this thread started, where to get fuel.

Awwww, whatsa matter Ron, you don't want to subsidize my twin's fuel costs? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Only if you let me drive them! :lol:

This never realy considered a cheap hobby/sport/addiction or whatever you like to call it, the simple truth. Prices do rise in everything and so far we've done pretty well over the years, some have actually gone down in some cases.

 

[AndyBrown]

Chris;i went to teh lake yesterday and did a bit of testing on the 21's using no nitro fuel.

engine set as follows: 21 Green Head LS

fuel mix: 15% Klotz/85% Meth.

head clearance: 5 and 6 thou.

carb: standard CMB

pipe: Brown 21 long pipe (smaller volume) and picco 7015 small volume 21 pipe with 90 degree stinger

glow plug: o'donnell red dot (hot heat range) and Tower Hobbies plug (hot heat range)

props: Grim 38-55 for breaking in

Grim 38-63

ABC 1516/3

ABC 1716 cut to 39mm dia.

ABC 1717 cut to 39mm dia.

took a bit to get the needle set for starting purposes, but with a little persuading i had it going in about 1/2 hr.

the launching was as per the norm, throttle responce was a bit slower compared to nitro fuel.

speed was also down a bit from nitro fuel (60%). with the green head is was able to get and maintain a solid 66 mph with the Brown pipe and 65 mph with the old picco pipe. The motor cooling was regulated with a wheel collar just off the nipple at the rudder blade. temp was monitored with a lazer temp gun. really had to pinch off the water to almost none at all to get the motor to heat up to a reasonable temp. (remember, its winter out there). best performance was with the o'donnell plug. head clearance finally set at .006". .oo5 was a bit too tight. pipe length set at 3" measured along side the motor to the high point on the pipe.

next testing will be with an added 5% Prope. Oxide added to the fuel mix.

if there is anything i can try for testing purposes that iam able to do folks, please suggest it to me and i will give it a go if i have it and am able to do so.

this is just a testing of straight fuel to see what the outcome is heading towards in the event ONE DAY we do happen to run out of nitro.

REMEMBER< THIS WAS JUST A TEST,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

carl

p.s. dang, i am doing more water time now than when the season was under way :lol: :lol:

Carl,

66 mph! That's impressive for Straight fuel with no engine mods for the methanol. Forget the Prope! That stuff is TOXIC.

More compression (smaller chamber), but with more squish clearence will improve starting and overall power.

Forget SPEC FUEL. With the right engine/boat set-up there will be little difference in overall racing perfomance between the guy that chooses to run 0% - 15% and the guy that chooses to run 50% +.

 

[Terry Keeley]

Chris;i went to teh lake yesterday and did a bit of testing on the 21's using no nitro fuel.

engine set as follows: 21 Green Head LS

fuel mix: 15% Klotz/85% Meth.

head clearance: 5 and 6 thou.

carb: standard CMB

pipe: Brown 21 long pipe (smaller volume) and picco 7015 small volume 21 pipe with 90 degree stinger

glow plug: o'donnell red dot (hot heat range) and Tower Hobbies plug (hot heat range)

props: Grim 38-55 for breaking in

Grim 38-63

ABC 1516/3

ABC 1716 cut to 39mm dia.

ABC 1717 cut to 39mm dia.

took a bit to get the needle set for starting purposes, but with a little persuading i had it going in about 1/2 hr.

the launching was as per the norm, throttle responce was a bit slower compared to nitro fuel.

speed was also down a bit from nitro fuel (60%). with the green head is was able to get and maintain a solid 66 mph with the Brown pipe and 65 mph with the old picco pipe. The motor cooling was regulated with a wheel collar just off the nipple at the rudder blade. temp was monitored with a lazer temp gun. really had to pinch off the water to almost none at all to get the motor to heat up to a reasonable temp. (remember, its winter out there). best performance was with the o'donnell plug. head clearance finally set at .006". .oo5 was a bit too tight. pipe length set at 3" measured along side the motor to the high point on the pipe.

next testing will be with an added 5% Prope. Oxide added to the fuel mix.

if there is anything i can try for testing purposes that iam able to do folks, please suggest it to me and i will give it a go if i have it and am able to do so.

this is just a testing of straight fuel to see what the outcome is heading towards in the event ONE DAY we do happen to run out of nitro.

REMEMBER< THIS WAS JUST A TEST,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

carl

p.s. dang, i am doing more water time now than when the season was under way :lol: :lol:

Great stuff Carl, somebody doing something constructive for those wanting a low/no nitro alternative!

I agree with Andy that a smaller volume head would help, even as small as 0.15cc or so. You already got the hot plug, low head clnc, pinched water figured out.

I'd definately like to see what 5% prope would do and would bet it'd make things a whole lot more "runable".

What flavour of Klotz ru running? Full synthetic, castor, mix?

BTW, 66 mph with a 20 hydro will put you in the hunt anywhere, anytime! Any idea what it runs on 60%?

 

[carlnoki]

Terry;

this is a NEW boat and motor as well. So, i have only tested it using 0% nitro.

i did just mix up some 5% prope mix. will try that next weekend along with the head button from my OLD green head that Bobby at Tidewater did for me.

the other 21 rigger (old one), new motor, is radar gunning (Stalker) at an honest 74 mph using 60% nitro mix.

and the klotz is synthetic.

i MIGHT try using 0% with that rigger, but only time will tell.

modest plug: ABC is working on some new props and will let you know how they work as time goes on.

carl

p.s. Terry, it took me a while but i certainly learned to let the 21's SQUEEEEEEEEEELLLL like stuck pigs.

i might also try a CB jet ring carb i got that plugs right in.

 

[TERMINATOR]

Terry;this is a NEW boat and motor as well. So, i have only tested it using 0% nitro.

i did just mix up some 5% prope mix. will try that next weekend along with the head button from my OLD green head that Bobby at Tidewater did for me.

the other 21 rigger (old one), new motor, is radar gunning (Stalker) at an honest 74 mph using 60% nitro mix.

and the klotz is synthetic.

i MIGHT try using 0% with that rigger, but only time will tell.

modest plug: ABC is working on some new props and will let you know how they work as time goes on.

carl

p.s. Terry, it took me a while but i certainly learned to let the 21's SQUEEEEEEEEEELLLL like stuck pigs.

i might also try a CB jet ring carb i got that plugs right in.

i am just curious to how many competition laps you turned with the straight methanol setup and if they were close to a actual race course? and if any mill laps too, i am just trying to see if there is any more fuel usage with that setup, i used to race imca modifieds and they would go through about twice as much as a normal gas race engine to get them running in the kill zone..how much fuel was left after the run.. thanks. and i bet you didnt kill any plugs either.

terry k

 

[Terry Keeley]

Terry;this is a NEW boat and motor as well. So, i have only tested it using 0% nitro.

i did just mix up some 5% prope mix. will try that next weekend along with the head button from my OLD green head that Bobby at Tidewater did for me.

the other 21 rigger (old one), new motor, is radar gunning (Stalker) at an honest 74 mph using 60% nitro mix.

and the klotz is synthetic.

i MIGHT try using 0% with that rigger, but only time will tell.

modest plug: ABC is working on some new props and will let you know how they work as time goes on.

carl

p.s. Terry, it took me a while but i certainly learned to let the 21's SQUEEEEEEEEEELLLL like stuck pigs.

i might also try a CB jet ring carb i got that plugs right in.

Sounds good! Maybe try the stock head and only add the prope to see if there's any difference?

74, that's smokin'!

 

[AndyBrown]

Terry;this is a NEW boat and motor as well. So, i have only tested it using 0% nitro.

i did just mix up some 5% prope mix. will try that next weekend along with the head button from my OLD green head that Bobby at Tidewater did for me.

the other 21 rigger (old one), new motor, is radar gunning (Stalker) at an honest 74 mph using 60% nitro mix.

and the klotz is synthetic.

i MIGHT try using 0% with that rigger, but only time will tell.

modest plug: ABC is working on some new props and will let you know how they work as time goes on.

carl

p.s. Terry, it took me a while but i certainly learned to let the 21's SQUEEEEEEEEEELLLL like stuck pigs.

i might also try a CB jet ring carb i got that plugs right in.

i am just curious to how many competition laps you turned with the straight methanol setup and if they were close to a actual race course? and if any mill laps too, i am just trying to see if there is any more fuel usage with that setup, i used to race imca modifieds and they would go through about twice as much as a normal gas race engine to get them running in the kill zone..how much fuel was left after the run.. thanks. and i bet you didnt kill any plugs either.

terry k

Terry,

Air/fuel ratio for:

Gasoline-------16:1

Methanol------6.5:1

50% Nitro---- 3:1

100% Nitro---1.5:1

See pattern here?

 

[LarryConrad]

Terry;this is a NEW boat and motor as well. So, i have only tested it using 0% nitro.

i did just mix up some 5% prope mix. will try that next weekend along with the head button from my OLD green head that Bobby at Tidewater did for me.

the other 21 rigger (old one), new motor, is radar gunning (Stalker) at an honest 74 mph using 60% nitro mix.

and the klotz is synthetic.

i MIGHT try using 0% with that rigger, but only time will tell.

modest plug: ABC is working on some new props and will let you know how they work as time goes on.

carl

p.s. Terry, it took me a while but i certainly learned to let the 21's SQUEEEEEEEEEELLLL like stuck pigs.

i might also try a CB jet ring carb i got that plugs right in.

i am just curious to how many competition laps you turned with the straight methanol setup and if they were close to a actual race course? and if any mill laps too, i am just trying to see if there is any more fuel usage with that setup, i used to race imca modifieds and they would go through about twice as much as a normal gas race engine to get them running in the kill zone..how much fuel was left after the run.. thanks. and i bet you didnt kill any plugs either.

terry k

Terry,

Air/fuel ratio for:

Gasoline-------16:1

Methanol------6.5:1

50% Nitro---- 3:1

100% Nitro---1.5:1

See pattern here?

If my car ran at 16:1 I could probably get 40 mpg! In closed loop it stays at about 14.7 At wot, full boost around 10.5.If I fool the computer with a map clamp I can get the A/FR to 11.5 before the computers starts pulling timing. With a pint of torco and the water injection spraying a 50/50 mix of alky and water I can get closer to an ideal 12:1.

Larry

 

[TERMINATOR]

Terry;this is a NEW boat and motor as well. So, i have only tested it using 0% nitro.

i did just mix up some 5% prope mix. will try that next weekend along with the head button from my OLD green head that Bobby at Tidewater did for me.

the other 21 rigger (old one), new motor, is radar gunning (Stalker) at an honest 74 mph using 60% nitro mix.

and the klotz is synthetic.

i MIGHT try using 0% with that rigger, but only time will tell.

modest plug: ABC is working on some new props and will let you know how they work as time goes on.

carl

p.s. Terry, it took me a while but i certainly learned to let the 21's SQUEEEEEEEEEELLLL like stuck pigs.

i might also try a CB jet ring carb i got that plugs right in.

i am just curious to how many competition laps you turned with the straight methanol setup and if they were close to a actual race course? and if any mill laps too, i am just trying to see if there is any more fuel usage with that setup, i used to race imca modifieds and they would go through about twice as much as a normal gas race engine to get them running in the kill zone..how much fuel was left after the run.. thanks. and i bet you didnt kill any plugs either.

terry k

Terry,

Air/fuel ratio for:

Gasoline-------16:1

Methanol------6.5:1

50% Nitro---- 3:1

100% Nitro---1.5:1

See pattern here?

If my car ran at 16:1 I could probably get 40 mpg! In closed loop it stays at about 14.7 At wot, full boost around 10.5.If I fool the computer with a map clamp I can get the A/FR to 11.5 before the computers starts pulling timing. With a pint of torco and the water injection spraying a 50/50 mix of alky and water I can get closer to an ideal 12:1.

Larry

not trying to get too far off topic here.. but larry what the heck you have done to that neon? alky injection with water ...? pretty cool boat hauler

terry

 

[carlnoki]

fuel mileage is deffinately UP.

no blown plugs as yet.

Terry: i will be testing the prope mix with the stock head first then the other head.

i ran the boat on our race course. bouy markers are visible

once needeled, ran the course 12 full laps before coming in. still had fuel in the tank. (how much, dont know) just shook it

as you can see by Andy's chart, the hotter the fuel, the lower your mileage.

and if yo uthink about it, that is why you get worse mileage in your cars in the winter time than in the spring thru fall time. (if you are in one of the states that use a blend of gas and ethanol for winter use)

i lose about 1-1.5 mpg on the blazer in the winter time

 

[TERMINATOR]

Terry;this is a NEW boat and motor as well. So, i have only tested it using 0% nitro.

i did just mix up some 5% prope mix. will try that next weekend along with the head button from my OLD green head that Bobby at Tidewater did for me.

the other 21 rigger (old one), new motor, is radar gunning (Stalker) at an honest 74 mph using 60% nitro mix.

and the klotz is synthetic.

i MIGHT try using 0% with that rigger, but only time will tell.

modest plug: ABC is working on some new props and will let you know how they work as time goes on.

carl

p.s. Terry, it took me a while but i certainly learned to let the 21's SQUEEEEEEEEEELLLL like stuck pigs.

i might also try a CB jet ring carb i got that plugs right in.

i am just curious to how many competition laps you turned with the straight methanol setup and if they were close to a actual race course? and if any mill laps too, i am just trying to see if there is any more fuel usage with that setup, i used to race imca modifieds and they would go through about twice as much as a normal gas race engine to get them running in the kill zone..how much fuel was left after the run.. thanks. and i bet you didnt kill any plugs either.

terry k

Terry,

Air/fuel ratio for:

Gasoline-------16:1

Methanol------6.5:1

50% Nitro---- 3:1

100% Nitro---1.5:1

See pattern here?

i see no need to worry bout not makin it with my 60 boat..lol

terry

 

[AndyBrown]

Terry;this is a NEW boat and motor as well. So, i have only tested it using 0% nitro.

i did just mix up some 5% prope mix. will try that next weekend along with the head button from my OLD green head that Bobby at Tidewater did for me.

the other 21 rigger (old one), new motor, is radar gunning (Stalker) at an honest 74 mph using 60% nitro mix.

and the klotz is synthetic.

i MIGHT try using 0% with that rigger, but only time will tell.

modest plug: ABC is working on some new props and will let you know how they work as time goes on.

carl

p.s. Terry, it took me a while but i certainly learned to let the 21's SQUEEEEEEEEEELLLL like stuck pigs.

i might also try a CB jet ring carb i got that plugs right in.

i am just curious to how many competition laps you turned with the straight methanol setup and if they were close to a actual race course? and if any mill laps too, i am just trying to see if there is any more fuel usage with that setup, i used to race imca modifieds and they would go through about twice as much as a normal gas race engine to get them running in the kill zone..how much fuel was left after the run.. thanks. and i bet you didnt kill any plugs either.

terry k

Terry,

Air/fuel ratio for:

Gasoline-------16:1

Methanol------6.5:1

50% Nitro---- 3:1

100% Nitro---1.5:1

See pattern here?

If my car ran at 16:1 I could probably get 40 mpg! In closed loop it stays at about 14.7 At wot, full boost around 10.5.If I fool the computer with a map clamp I can get the A/FR to 11.5 before the computers starts pulling timing. With a pint of torco and the water injection spraying a 50/50 mix of alky and water I can get closer to an ideal 12:1.

Larry

So what happened to those "lean burn" engines Detroit is always talking about! :lol: :lol:

 

[carlnoki]

ask Chrysler,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,