NAMBA rules discussion

[eddieh]

Oh and Eddie...do what you want with N1 mono. Keep it as a club or what ever style of racing. We are not trying to kill something that a club or member really wants to race.

Alan personally I would love to see n-1 go, and 1/10th crackerbox replaced with 1/6th crackerbox on 4s/1p 8 xl motor

but there are a lot of guys running them why I haven't a clue like watchin a zit grow... it's ugly but ya can't stop staring....

 

[Paul Pachmayer]

Hi Lohring,

The voltages vary from 4.2 volts down to 3 volts or less per cell now during a race. That's a change of 40%. If you run enough extra capacity the curve is very flat for all practical purposes. That's why everyone likes 2P. Lohring Miller

Not really true on the 2P thing. The ONLY reason I run 2P is capacity. I need 6000mah on board to run my 33" mono to it's full potential on a 1 mile course with full mill and finish lap. That means I need 7200 total mah in the boat, 6000 plus 20% to keep the cells safe. If, or more to the point when they come out with a cell that gives that capacity with a high C rating I'm done using 2P, wouldn't need parallel cells.

I just retired my 3 season old 4350 20C cells, they had over 230 cycles on them when they started to fade. I'm very pleased with the performance I got out of them and bang for buck couldn't be touched by nimh cells.

Paul.

 

[D. Newland]

I was trying to explain why you DON'T need to measure everything so accurately to have races that are fairly equal. The voltages vary from 4.2 volts down to 3 volts or less per cell now during a race. That's a change of 40%. If you run enough extra capacity the curve is very flat for all practical purposes. That's why everyone likes 2P. What is the variation in current between manufacturers that a given size (according to the manufacturer) battery will deliver? I'm sure it's significant between battery chemistries, but how about between batteries from the high quality lipo suppliers?
Lohring Miller

Hi Lohring,

I'm not in agreement with the 4.2 volts to 3 volts drain during a race. Resting lipo cell voltage fully charged is 4.2 V/cell. Under load, a charged pack resting voltage will drop immediately (varies by vendor/size of pack/load) and it will hold that voltage (give or take .1 to .2 volts/cell) for a majority of the cell drain. That's the "flat curve" as you mentioned. The prudent FE racer will have a setup where the voltage under load will stay on the "flat curve". If he doesn't, he risks cell damage. 1P/2P, it doesn't matter. The basic setup requirements as it relates to batteries is the same.

During a race heat, the slight loss in the "flat curve" cell voltage (.1 to .2 volts/cell) is easily compensated by the cell getting warmer during discharge, lowing the IR a bit more. That's why LiPo race boats are finishing heats just as fast as they started. In your example, you would expect an FE boat to fall on it's face on the last lap. That just doesn't happen unless there are other circumstances involved.

Obviously 2P gives you a longer and slightly higher "flat curve" voltage, but it doesn't change the basic setup requirements of my explanation.

 

[drobie]

This not targeted at any particular person or group, just a general comment for members of ANY forum . A quote I noted in a list sent to many of you this week. I thought it was good advice to anyone in a heated discussion on ANY forum.

"Don't argue with an idiot; people watching may not be able to tell the difference."

 

[lohring]

I just came back from an Australian race where electric classes were run. The lipo class used voltage (6S) and pack weight to limit power. The monos ranged from 33 inch Delta Force and 3.5 size Seducer hulls to a 7.5 size Seducer. The smaller monos ran 6S 5000 packs and the larger boat ran 5S2P 2600 (I think) cells. It was the fastest, but drew too many amps and puffed the cells. However , this is an example of a system that allows innovation, but restricts performance. It seemed to work since all the boats were close in speed despite different motors, batteries, and hulls.

Lohring Miller

 

[Darin Jordan]

It was the fastest, but drew too many amps and puffed the cells. However , this is an example of a system that allows innovation, but restricts performance.

I'm not sure a system that limits performance at the expense of puffing cells is a really good system to follow...

And besides that... EVERY time the tech changes.... the weight is going to change... so it's a trip to the rulebook EVERY season EVERYTIME the technology changes...

Sorry... but what you describe is exactly what we've had forever... Limited mah cells, and by default, "weight limits"... just regulated by cell size and count rather than by grams/ounces...... and all it resulted in was battery wars and boats growing in length...

It's time to stop that cycle... The real innovation is going to begin once manufactures and suppliers KNOW what they can target their products towards... and that their investment in molds, etc., will pay off over the LONG term... Same goes for the racers...

 

[D. Newland]

...this is an example of a system that allows innovation, but restricts performance. It seemed to work since all the boats were close in speed despite different motors, batteries, and hulls.
Lohring Miller

Are you sure you're not talking about the Az WW III race 2/07, or CAFE' 10/07 race??

What did the Australian Offshore setups look like?

 

[Eric Bourlet]

Max limits go in the exact opposite as every other NAMBA class. Stick with voltage limits ! Don't go screw up the boat rides trying to force people to limit HP it never works any where it's tried. It killed Ayrton Senna when they tried to limit down force in F1 you guys are talking about the same thing here. If you don't limit HP by either Voltage or current and specify a minimum hull size you will just end up with a bunch of ill handling boats that will discourage new blood and chase off the old guard as well. Don't just assume the existing class rules are that way by accident. Many of the nitro rules have evolved over time because we had to learn the same thing you guys are doing now. Try to learn from the past rather than make the mistakes over and over. Minimum not Maximum length is what you need to do to keep the boats interesting and keep the guy that makes an ill handling boat that ends up taking out the entire fleet.

 

[TRUCKPULL]

Max limits go in the exact opposite as every other NAMBA class. Stick with voltage limits ! Don't go screw up the boat rides trying to force people to limit HP it never works any where it's tried. It killed Ayrton Senna when they tried to limit down force in F1 you guys are talking about the same thing here. If you don't limit HP by either Voltage or current and specify a minimum hull size you will just end up with a bunch of ill handling boats that will discourage new blood and chase off the old guard as well. Don't just assume the existing class rules are that way by accident. Many of the nitro rules have evolved over time because we had to learn the same thing you guys are doing now. Try to learn from the past rather than make the mistakes over and over. Minimum not Maximum length is what you need to do to keep the boats interesting and keep the guy that makes an ill handling boat that ends up taking out the entire fleet.

Eric

It sounds like you do not know what is available to the electric boaters today.

We do use voltage limits.

It is almost impossible to tech mAp limits.

New motors are coming out almost every month with more power and less weight. So motor size or weight rules would have to be changed ever 6 months.

New batteries are also coming out almost every month with higher “C” ratings and higher capacity. Battery limits would make every body buy the newest and lasted out there, the same as we had with sub “C”;s.

(Lipo’s were intended to last for three years or more.)

Max hull lengths are the easiest to tech, and have been proven to work.

( there are about 4 clubs that have incorporated these Max length rules into there club rules, and have raced them for a year already, and have proven that they indeed do work.)

They keep boats off equal size and speed racing together; also these boats are cost efficient.

With out hull length limits there is the capability today of a 6 cell (2S Lipo) 40” long Mono with over 3 HP on board.

The cost of these monsters alone will kill this hobby.

You can only put so much power into a certain size hull and finish 3 races that are 1 mile long.

Larry

 

[AlanN]

Are you sure you're not talking about the Az WW III race 2/07, or CAFE' 10/07 race??

How about CAFE '05 and '06? Some of the 1st lipo based classes started there.

 

[D. Newland]

Are you sure you're not talking about the Az WW III race 2/07, or CAFE' 10/07 race??

How about CAFE '05 and '06? Some of the 1st lipo based classes started there.

Right. I didn't communicate that post very well. What I meant to say was that length limits were run at the Az and Ohio 2007 races, and Lohring's comments could have been used to describe the racing there, too.

 

[Pagemaster]

Am I missing something? All this talk of amp limits, weight limits, but no one that opposes length limits has given a "valid" reason for not using them. So naysayers whats the reason for not adopting length limits? better yet, if this was a business decision I would do that childish thing we learned in grammar school and break out that blank piece of paper and make a column for pluses and minuses. On my piece of paper the pluses of length limits far outweigh the minuses. Lets hear yours?

I can say personally I was/am planning to make the M Cup this June. But I'm not buying a new fleet to race against giant p mono boats. If my 33" boat is to small to race in p mono I give up! If limits are not in place I'll stay home and read about it.

Time to go the hyperions beeping. lol

 

[TRUCKPULL]

Max limits go in the exact opposite as every other NAMBA class. Stick with voltage limits ! Don't go screw up the boat rides trying to force people to limit HP it never works any where it's tried. It killed Ayrton Senna when they tried to limit down force in F1 you guys are talking about the same thing here. If you don't limit HP by either Voltage or current and specify a minimum hull size you will just end up with a bunch of ill handling boats that will discourage new blood and chase off the old guard as well. Don't just assume the existing class rules are that way by accident. Many of the nitro rules have evolved over time because we had to learn the same thing you guys are doing now. Try to learn from the past rather than make the mistakes over and over. Minimum not Maximum length is what you need to do to keep the boats interesting and keep the guy that makes an ill handling boat that ends up taking out the entire fleet.

Eric

It sounds like you do not know what is available to the electric boaters today.

We do use voltage limits.

It is almost impossible to tech mAp limits.

New motors are coming out almost every month with more power and less weight. So motor size or weight rules would have to be changed ever 6 months.

New batteries are also coming out almost every month with higher “C” ratings and higher capacity. Battery limits would make every body buy the newest and lasted out there, the same as we had with sub “C”;s.

(Lipo’s were intended to last for three years or more.)

Max hull lengths are the easiest to tech, and have been proven to work.

( there are about 4 clubs that have incorporated these Max length rules into there club rules, and have raced them for a year already, and have proven that they indeed do work.)

They keep boats off equal size and speed racing together; also these boats are cost efficient.

With out hull length limits there is the capability today of a 6 cell (2S Lipo) 40” long Mono with over 3 HP on board.

The cost of these monsters alone will kill this hobby.

You can only put so much power into a certain size hull and finish 3 races that are 1 mile long.

Larry

Eric

Congratulations on you appointment as District #8 director.

I suspect that you are a Nitro and Gas racer,

I am wondering why you would want to speak out against something that the FE people in your district have indorsed and adopted.

You have I believe the largest FE club and FE membership in your district of all North America.

This club has already adopted the length limits as club rules.

Would it not be better for you to agree to what the FE people in your District want rather then butting heads with the people that you are suppose to represent on the NAMBA board of Directors?

Also this is to be a vote for the people that race FE boats in NAMBA.

These rule changes will not affect Nitro or Gas in any way.

Larry

 

[drobie]

The smaller monos ran 6S 5000 packs and the larger boat ran 5S2P 2600 (I think) cells. Lohring Miller

Please go to www.cheapbatterypacks.com, price a 2S lipo vs. a 6S lipo and then tell us why that rule would be good for NAMBA electrics.

 

[drobie]

Max limits go in the exact opposite as every other NAMBA class. Stick with voltage limits ! Don't go screw up the boat rides trying to force people to limit HP it never works any where it's tried. It killed Ayrton Senna when they tried to limit down force in F1 you guys are talking about the same thing here. If you don't limit HP by either Voltage or current and specify a minimum hull size you will just end up with a bunch of ill handling boats that will discourage new blood and chase off the old guard as well. Don't just assume the existing class rules are that way by accident. Many of the nitro rules have evolved over time because we had to learn the same thing you guys are doing now. Try to learn from the past rather than make the mistakes over and over. Minimum not Maximum length is what you need to do to keep the boats interesting and keep the guy that makes an ill handling boat that ends up taking out the entire fleet.

Eric, with all due respect nitro racers who want to influence what we do HAVE to learn more about what makes electrics tick before attempting to exert that influence. Posts like yours sound completely counterintuitive to evey thing most electric racers have learned in recent years. PLEASE DON'T TAKE THAT PERSONALLY. Others are doing the same thing.

1. If there are no maximum hull limits or minimum hull limits, it becomes purely a money game.

2. Power has been limited as much as it can already, but it's simply not enough and other methods require complicated teching.

3. Max limits may go in the exact opposite direction for nitro boats, but we are not running nitro boats. Electrics are VERY different in many ways.

4. If you want further evidence, look at recent history. 3 years ago electrics where simply weird toys run be eccentric weirdos. Almost overnight, we've taken a quantum leap to where 1 Dist. kicked electrics out of their nitro season point series after the first season that they tried to run together.

5. Most of us have been using lipos only for 1 season, many for 2 and some have been testing for 3 or 4, running at the club level. An in terms of the future, we're in the infancy of new battery technologies. The quantum leaps will continue.

6. All 5 electric racers that have voiced an opinion against length limitations have 2 things in common. They want to run Sport 40 hulls in a Sport 20 equivalent class or they want to run they're new 1/10th scales in a class in which the slowest boats are 10-20 miles faster. The other thing they have in common? They are all associated with the only active "TEAM" in FE today. 1 doesn't race ovals and it was revealed that another has been publically representing himself (including a NAMBA number in his signature line) as a current NAMBA member when in fact he hasn't been for quite a few years.

7. We understand that there may be other electric racers that oppose limits, but they won't voice an opinion so what are we supposed to do? Guess at what that minority wants.

Bottomline, all we want is what's always been. Electric racers propose and vote on their own rules based on a majority vote by electric racers.

 

[Eric Bourlet]

Eric

Congratulations on you appointment as District #8 director.

I suspect that you are a Nitro and Gas racer,

I am wondering why you would want to speak out against something that the FE people in your district have indorsed and adopted.

You have I believe the largest FE club and FE membership in your district of all North America.

This club has already adopted the length limits as club rules.

Would it not be better for you to agree to what the FE people in your District want rather then butting heads with the people that you are suppose to represent on the NAMBA board of Directors?

Also this is to be a vote for the people that race FE boats in NAMBA.

These rule changes will not affect Nitro or Gas in any way.

Larry

Larry, I have no idea what you are talking about. I am not the District Director, Lohring Miller is in the middle of his two year term. I am a class chair but do not feel that should disqualify me from sharing my experiences and thoughts with fellow racers. Just because I don't run electric now does not mean I never did. I have an interest in all aspects of the hobby. I have talked to the electric guys at some of our fun runs and I sure did not get the idea that it is a universal idea to limit hull sizes. In fact many of the hulls I saw run prove the point they needed to be larger as they were way over powered and had terrible rides. Hull max limits will not keep guys from building over powered hulls they will still do it and the ride will suffer. Just because the loudest guys want to make hulls that won't handle the available power and will drive and handle like garbage does not mean that everyone does. You guys are all correct you have HP available that many of you don't even realize can be achieved and yes you are evolving very fast, driven be all the new technologies. Even more reason not to ham string the sport by forcing hulls to be too small to deal with the power. I do find it interesting that any time someone attempts to point out the pitfalls of maximum hull length limits you pro limits guys get into personal attacks and trying to discount the opinion of the people that disagree with you. Bottom line is that everyone should be heard on this rather than the the only thought that matters are the ones that are yelled the loudest and intimidated the opposition from speaking out. By the way when I do run for District director I trust I can count on your support?

 

[Darin Jordan]

I have talked to the electric guys at some of our fun runs and I sure did not get the idea that it is a universal idea to limit hull sizes.

Eric... I'm not sure what other clubs you've had at your fun runs... but the entire Puget Sound Fast Electric club, which as attended at least two of them, has already adopted the length limits being proposed... Brian and I talked to you for quite some time after the Pumpkin Scramble... Our club is in full support of these proposals... (well... some of us are a little leary of having to run 1-mile... but we'll work that out too...)... We've been at the forefront of this technology and we KNOW what is possible if something isn't done... Get out your wallets...

Even more reason not to ham string the sport by forcing hulls to be too small to deal with the power.

As we've tried to point out before... short of some new emerging current limiting technology coming available tomorrow, or just spec'ing motors from one manufacture for each class... the other option to NOT having length limits is to just keep doing what we've been doing... getting bigger and bigger and bigger until the costs of this equipment is so high that no one will be willing to do it... The bigger you go... the more it's going to cost to power the hull... that's just a fact... a proven fact...

I do find it interesting that any time someone attempts to point out the pitfalls of maximum hull length limits you pro limits guys get into personal attacks and trying to discount the opinion of the people that disagree with you.

I think you aren't really reading what's being posted... I can't speak for everyone else... but I've never "discounted" anyone elses ideas... and have, in fact, responded to each one... The response in every case has been to ask HOW do you propose to accomplish this idea? Details, please...

We already know what will happen if we don't have any length limits, and nothing else is done... status quo...

So when the non-length-limit supporters speak of limiting mah, limiting cells, limiting current, limiting motors... all of which are 10-fold harder to manage the simply measuring the length of the hull... People are naturally going to ask HOW do you propose this be done? What will the motor specs be? How will you limit the current and deal with the 300-amp spikes? How are you going to deal with the constant changing size/weight of the cell technology?

We are not discounting the opinions or turning a blind eye... But a position that is valid must be supportable... and without these details... how can anyone take this postition seriously as an option? Without the "HOW", it's not a viable option...

As for the "opposition" being "intimidated from speaking out"... could it actually be that they don't have answers to the legitimate questions being asked, and cannot really support thier position otherwise?? When this stuff gets down the to nitty-gritty, we're going to have to have the details of these plans to limit FE... We've detailed our side of the discussion... If there is another side... they need to detail theirs as well... That's how you have a real discussion... You can't just say "this is how it should be"... without a plan to implement it...

I can speak only for myself, but I'm completely open to others ideas that might accomplish the level of restriction we need to stay viable... but I'm going to need some details to be convinced... and so far, there haven't been any given...

And you are very correct... there are a LOT of people out there overpowering their hulls... But what you have actually experienced to date, or at least last season, was a lot of people working on the cutting edge of the technology, trying to find out what will and won't work... Lohring saw it at the Nats as well... BUT, once some limits are established... what you will see is an explosion in available hulls... and a plethora of knowledge of setups that truely work... WHICH, incidently, is exactly what YOU nitro guys have had at your disposal for MANY years... But then, you have NATURAL limits, because the IC engine is ONLY going to make SO much power for a given size... FE power is simply not that way...

 

[Scott_T]

The smaller monos ran 6S 5000 packs and the larger boat ran 5S2P 2600 (I think) cells. Lohring Miller

Please go to www.cheapbatterypacks.com, price a 2S lipo vs. a 6S lipo and then tell us why that rule would be good for NAMBA electrics.

Drobie, the class Lohring witnessed is aimed at 6S, so I have no idea why you would suggest comparing it to 2S. It has a maximum nominal voltage limit of 22.2V and a maximum pack weight limit of 900g. The boats range from 33" to 38" (mainly Deltas and Seaducers).

The owner of the 5S2P boat ran that configuration as he thought it would suit the motor he already had better (1521/1.5D), while still coming in under the weight limit.

Just clearing up things.

 

[jfruge]

I for one would like to see a cell is a cell format. I have felt this way from back in the 1P ver 2P wars....

Put a Limit on MA and weight per cell... say the current 5000 OR 6000 lipo cell + or - 10% or what ever..... (I feel this part is no big deal just go with the sticker on the pack) but this part may be another topic.

The cool part starts with the classes... I want to run Q mono.... "Q" is a 6S class = 6 cells (lipo cells)

I can run 2s3p 3s2p or 6s1p in this class. This makes for amny motor and esc options.

N2 = 2s1p (2 cells total)

P = 4 cells 2s2p or 4s1p (4 cells total)

q = 2s3p 3s2p or 6s1p 6 cells total)

S = 4s2p or 8s1p (8 cells total)

T = 5s1p or 10S2p (10 cells total)

This to me would help bring the power back in check. I do have to keep in mind that the above idea is just keyboard thoughts as I have not tested this idea.

I also feel that with out other limits like above or some MA limit device (that we dont have) the hull limit ideas that have been tested and sent in to a vote seems like the best way to help kill the "have to build a bigger better more $$$ boat every 6 months". problem!!! "You will have my vote"!

 

[eddieh]

4. If you want further evidence, look at recent history. 3 years ago electrics where simply weird toys run be eccentric weirdos. Almost overnight, we've taken a quantum leap to where 1 Dist. kicked electrics out of their nitro season point series after the first season that they tried to run together.

Doug which district is that??? In district 1 electric and nitro ran together last year, looking at expanding next year, yes electric did well in the open classes...

6. All 5 electric racers that have voiced an opinion against length limitations have 2 things in common. They want to run Sport 40 hulls in a Sport 20 equivalent class or they want to run they're new 1/10th scales in a class in which the slowest boats are 10-20 miles faster. The other thing they have in common? They are all associated with the only active "TEAM" in FE today. 1 doesn't race ovals and it was revealed that another has been publically representing himself (including a NAMBA number in his signature line) as a current NAMBA member when in fact he hasn't been for quite a few years.

Not entirely correct doug, I do not see why I should HAVE to make my current hulls illegal, nobody said anything about sport 40, but if we are going to race along side our districts nitro racers, it just makes sense to race hulls that are the same, wasn't the whole point of allowing 2p was so we could race with nitro? I do not know what district you referred to but in district 1 all the nitro folks made us entirely welcome and are having a blast.

the part about the 1/10th scale is when the last rule change was implemented (last year) it made all of our hulls obsolete, so we built new hulls under the current rules, they are 10th scale ish in size, now you want us to support a rule change that would in effect make our hulls illegal?? or run them in the next higher voltage class, meaning changing motors batts etc

I have no idea who this mystery person representing himself as a namba member and he is not??

whom are you referring to?

what does being part of a team have to do with anything???

You folks love whipping that horse...

anyway I personally am tired of the fighting, the name calling, and all the rest of the happy horsesh%t....

c-ya