NAMBA rules discussion

[jfruge]

Terry, I am not against length limit, I'm against length limits without power restrictions. Since he brought it up, I asked Mr. Jordan to name a racing organization that has a length limit but doesn't have a power limit, he didn't answer, I can't think of one, I doubt he could either.
Length restrictions without a power restriction is putting a Band-Aid on the situation. Just because a new cell comes along, why do we have to use it? If we don't put some provisions for spending caps on classes up to a least P power, F/E will be playing to a very limited audience.

What if you used the Length limits along with say a motor weight limit as well?

I for one still think that a NEU 1527 is overkill for P class! (well a 1521 for that matter) but that may be just because I have a 1515

Thoughts?

John Fruge

 

[jimi911]

Terry, I am not against length limit, I'm against length limits without power restrictions. Since he brought it up, I asked Mr. Jordan to name a racing organization that has a length limit but doesn't have a power limit, he didn't answer, I can't think of one, I doubt he could either.
Length restrictions without a power restriction is putting a Band-Aid on the situation. Just because a new cell comes along, why do we have to use it? If we don't put some provisions for spending caps on classes up to a least P power, F/E will be playing to a very limited audience.

What if you used the Length limits along with say a motor weight limit as well?

I for one still think that a NEU 1527 is overkill for P class! (well a 1521 for that matter) but that may be just because I have a 1515

Thoughts?

John Fruge

The good thing about running the big motors is not the performance advantage. At 1515 will run with a 1521 or a 1527 any day with length restrictions. You can't use all the power of a 1515 so the bigger motors are overkill performance wise. The BIG advantage of the bigger motors is their durability. They are workhorses at the amps and voltages we use them at. I run most of my Neus without cooling ... they just are not working. Drop a Hacker or a even a smaller lehner in there and you need to push them to get the performance I am getting ... pushing means less longevity.

I like big motors ... I have them ... I have some small ones to, but I think they are worth the investment.

BTW dito on the 240s. I run 240s or MGM 224a escs in just about everthing I own. Do I use all the power ... not even close ... but I know if I mess up a setup, pick up some weeds, or something wacko happens I have that margin of safety.

Big motors with big escs doesn't mean big advantage with the length limits ... its just peace of mind! I cooked 1 esc this year (A MGM 160a) when my driveline exploded and ceased the shaft. Other than that I have been running the heck out of my gear and never had to worry a bit about frying something. I did cook a Feigao 6XL though (they are disposable!!)

 

[TRUCKPULL]

Terry, I am not against length limit, I'm against length limits without power restrictions. Since he brought it up, I asked Mr. Jordan to name a racing organization that has a length limit but doesn't have a power limit, he didn't answer, I can't think of one, I doubt he could either.
Length restrictions without a power restriction is putting a Band-Aid on the situation. Just because a new cell comes along, why do we have to use it? If we don't put some provisions for spending caps on classes up to a least P power, F/E will be playing to a very limited audience.

Dan

First you want Weight Limits on the cells, But you cannot answer the 5 points that I posted.

Now All of a sudden you say you are not against Length Limits??? :huh:

Any Power limits that you can think of, you must first tell us how we are going to TECH them at a National race with over 200 boats like we had a few years ago in MI.

Larry

 

[Paul Pachmayer]

Hi Guys,

In the IMPBA there are NO restrictions on the P count using lipo cells, put in whatever you want. Just an observation but no body has pushed over 2P in a boat, it isn't needed. The reason for 2P is simple, we've been running 1 mile heats. Every boat I have from 2S up to my 10S boats pull roughly 6000mah from the cells per heat. I still go by the 20% rule so I need a total of roughly 8000mah. Oddly enough I've been running 20C 4350s in 2P configurations.

Using the proposed hull lengths with the best equipment in E2 mono (33" hull) I can run around 55 to 60mph before I simply can't keep the hull on the water in race conditions. That's in a 7 pound boat all up.

Trying at this point to limit power through cell limits after the rules are in place is pointless, the horse is out of the barn. Not to mention the cells are changing rapidly. Cell cost is also a piss poor argument, there are killer cells out now that are in the 300.00 dollar range for 4S2P. I can outfit my open boats for well under a grand! Competition between manufacturers is getting pretty hot, this by itself will drive cell costs down.

Just don't forget it's a total package, boat length along with 1 mile heats and full course mills keep things in check. That is why it's been working with the IMPBA proposed rule set.

Paul.

 

[lohring]

I'm not necessarily opposed to length limits. I just haven't seen them used in other model boat situations where the power available was changing rapidly. They weren't even considered in other cases since the challenge was to build boats that could handle the power. Limiting power in electric motors is very direct and simple. if you limit the input volts and amps the output power won't vary more than around 10% due to component efficiencies. I can often increase the power from a given displacement internal combustion engine 20% and double the power with a new design.

All we are arguing about really is how to limit the amps since battery voltage is mostly set. Currently the amps are unofficially regulated both by battery capacity and the available speed controllers. I doubt that it would be hard to put a current limiting circuit in speed controllers. They should have them now as a protective measure. It is technically harder to check battery capacity, but not impossible. How about some creative thought on this simple problem?

Lohring Miller

 

[TRUCKPULL]

I'm not necessarily opposed to length limits. I just haven't seen them used in other model boat situations where the power available was changing rapidly. They weren't even considered in other cases since the challenge was to build boats that could handle the power. Limiting power in electric motors is very direct and simple. if you limit the input volts and amps the output power won't vary more than around 10% due to component efficiencies. I can often increase the power from a given displacement internal combustion engine 20% and double the power with a new design.
All we are arguing about really is how to limit the amps since battery voltage is mostly set. Currently the amps are unofficially regulated both by battery capacity and the available speed controllers. I doubt that it would be hard to put a current limiting circuit in speed controllers. They should have them now as a protective measure. It is technically harder to check battery capacity, but not impossible. How about some creative thought on this simple problem?

Lohring Miller

Lohring

FE has been down this road of Limiting power.

I am not saying that it can not be TECHED some way, But at a large race like MI a few

years ago with over 200 boats, HOW are you going to TECK them.

And heaven forbid that nothing goes up in smoke when you are charging or discharging

or checking some one eleses boat.

One charge discharge cycle on one pack takes about 1 hour.

200 boats at 2P = 400 hours of TECH time.

Larry

 

[Darin Jordan]

I doubt that it would be hard to put a current limiting circuit in speed controllers.

Lohring,

You say this as though we can just pull the heads and do a little port timing... a very, VEEERRRRYYYY small number of FE-ers out there have the capability of building a circuit like this... And even if you could get ALL of the manufactures of such circuitry onboard... HOW would you calibrate these?? How would you tech them to insure that Castle's 100amp limit is the same as Schultzes is the same as MGMs is the same as the cheap Chinese models?? Seems VERY impractical to me, if not technically unfeasible...

It is technically harder to check battery capacity, but not impossible. How about some creative thought on this simple problem?
Lohring Miller

If you recall, with the very BEST of intentions, we tried this route at the 2007 FE Nationals, and were criticised strongly for our efforts... And, it takes a LOT of time to do even a single pack...

ALL of this adds complexity to the situation that just doesn't need to be there... The length restrictions have proven to be more than a sufficient limitation for FE over the past season...

There are many of us that have something to lose with this change... I have a 36" hull sitting here that would have made an excellent P-Mono, that will no longer be legal, so the sacrifice is felt close to home as well... HOWEVER, it's one I, and many others are willing to make if it helps stabilize FE in NAMBA in the long term...

 

[T.S.Davis]

Lohring, that's just it. We've been talking about how to limit amps for 2 years. Nobody has come up with a viable solution. The manufacturers could write it into the firmware I suppose but how would you get to every manufacturer? Then how would you tech that? Yikes. That's what started guys talking about simple length restrictions. The thinking being of course that your only going to be able to go "X" mph at a given length before your too unstable to finish. Super easy to tech. That's what they've been doing in Canada and at various locations. It seems to be working. Well, for those locations so far it has.

Paul, another strong argument for allowing cells to be paralleled multiple times is versatility. Suppose I had three sets of 2500's laying around from an old plane setup. I could race that 3P without having to buy the latest and greatest. Not with 2p limit I can't though. Heck, for N2/E2 sprint, I could buy 2s2p 3750's and be pretty competitive. Even at 1 mile. Where you get into trouble is when someone takes the liberty of paralleling three sets of 5000 and finds a 500 amp speedo. That's the chink in the IMPBA armor in my opinion but hey with length limits maybe it wont ever matter in our lifetime.

Dan, lengths without an amp limit is what your against? My understanding at least. Your cell weight thinking would basically limit what we "could" buy. In so doing stop guys from buying the latest and greatest every time it hits the market. Problems are many with this in my opinion but aside from that, is your fear that we will see boats that look like they came from mars? Guys trying pull the 300 amps available using wind tunnels, computer aided designs, and cnc mills to get them there? Or is that you feel you would have to buy new every spring to be competitive? With lengths you still have to stay in the water to win.

Honestly, I don't ever want to have a battery spec hanging from my neck like we did with the Sub C. Maybe that's just me though. New tech. came along and we just stood there and watched it go by. Were it not for guys like Paul and Kelly Brooks we'd still be scratching our chins 10 mph slower with melted shrink wrap. Ahhh, anybody miss the smell of toasted NiMh in the morning? smells like.......victory!

With Sub C it was the dimension itself that was the limitation. A weight limit would be exactly the same as having a dimensional limit IMO. Then when something new comes along that's heavier we'll wait patiently. Buy up all the old stuff we can find knowing full well that there is a better alternative but it's not legal so keep buying the old stuff. Then when there's no more old stuff to be had we'll have to propose a rule change........aaaaaagain.

OH! Another possibility. What if Brian is right on target and the cells get lighter. Then what? More arguing most likely.

 

[AlanN]

Great post Terry. I think you summed up alot of valid points. The fear of outrageous setups is somewhat of ghost. Will there be some....yes. It's usually a highlight of a race day when someone puts some ungoddly amount of power in a hull and all gather to the pond to watch. 9 times outta 10 we ohh and ahh until something breaks/ it flips/or blows up! Then there is that 10th time where we all admire the work and see how we can copy it!

"Just because a new cell comes along, why do we have to use it?" Gee I don't know....how about something better than what we currently have? Face it Chase electrics is a tech war. You've been doing this how long and have not caught on yet? Whether it be a motor/speed controller or cells racers want the best or latest. Also.....noone has ever mentioned that when a new product comes out their older stuff gets sold to those less fortunate. I know I will have some extra cells to convert to different packs or sell to those who could use them. This is not meant to drive the costs up. This is the norm in FE. You also asked Darin an unfair question. (reminds me of the phones sales wimps who make my skin crawl) What other source of racing has power plants and power sources changing so rapidly? None. So keep kicking and screaming. There is no other racing like fe boats. Of course if your so concered about restrictions go fe car racing....I understand you can still use a brushed motor there.

ps

Terry, I appreciate your understanding. I am not trying to drive a wedge between the organizations.

I like racing 1 mile!

 

[jfruge]

It seems to me that this might be a good time and place to post the current rule change plan and also maybe add the riggers to the limit as well.

That should also give folks that are not on board with the plan to speak up.

Just my thoughts for today!

John Fruge

 

[T.S.Davis]

Alan,

I didn't think you were. A wedge is counter productive. The reality is that neither organization owns every market. If you want to race in Rome you have to race with the Romans the way the Romans race. This is especially true with FE because it still only exists in pockets around the US. It's really hard to build an FE program from scratch unles you find a pocket of racers. Heck, it's even hard to keep one together that IS established. If you do find an existing club you run what they run.

If we all run at least similar rules an FE guy could race with who ever he could find. Knowing you Alan, I know that's what you want most of all. TO RACE. The whole NAMBA vs IMPBA doesn't help FE in the long run. Knowing me like you do, you surely know hard it is for me to type that.

 

[Darin Jordan]

The whole NAMBA vs IMPBA doesn't help FE in the long run.

Someone who can still post there needs to go try to convince Eddie that increasing the P size limits to 37 or 38" is a REALLY BAD IDEA!! I tried via e-mail, telling him that at the current limits being proposed, the door is still open for lower powered setups... but if you increase the length to 38" or ???, you'll all but MANDATE that someone use a high-amp/high-dollar setup...

Also, in my opinion, we need minimums for all the levels as well... if for no other reason than to keep like boats racing together...

 

[T.S.Davis]

Relax D'man! LOL

It's in there somewhere. I mentioned it before. I also mentioned that scale hulls are not always best performing hulls for sport too. Now if you ran your 38" hull on 6s you could boogy. Still may not perform as well as a true "sport" design on 6s.

 

[Darin Jordan]

Now if you ran your 38" hull on 6s you could boogy. Still may not perform as well as a true "sport" design on 6s.

One could run a 1/10th scale in the Q/E3 class on 4S and be within the class limits, as well as within the hull performance limits... Just like you could run your 27.5" hull in P/E2 on 3S and be perfectly legal...

There is no need to increase the P/E2 limits just to accomodate the occasional 1/10th scale guy.... because it's not THEM that are going push the class out of reach... it's the guys like ME, who will push the limits right to the edge and make a combo that only a few could touch... we really don't NEED to have 38" P-Sports out there... 34" is plenty big...

 

[eddieh]

Now if you ran your 38" hull on 6s you could boogy. Still may not perform as well as a true "sport" design on 6s.

One could run a 1/10th scale in the Q/E3 class on 4S and be within the class limits, as well as within the hull performance limits... Just like you could run your 27.5" hull in P/E2 on 3S and be perfectly legal...

There is no need to increase the P/E2 limits just to accomodate the occasional 1/10th scale guy.... because it's not THEM that are going push the class out of reach... it's the guys like ME, who will push the limits right to the edge and make a combo that only a few could touch... we really don't NEED to have 38" P-Sports out there... 34" is plenty big...

Darin I am Listening/Reading/whatever.... but who the heck am I that need convincing??? I am just a moderator... and a NAMBA member hell I am still smiling thinking about Alans big red monster churning up the michigan pond, that was cool, I am thinking we NEED that in an N-2 setup

seriously I actually do read everything I can...

but I am bringing lipo this year to michigan, and no alan you can't drive my boat....

 

[AlanN]

If we all run at least similar rules an FE guy could race with who ever he could find. Knowing you Alan, I know that's what you want most of all. TO RACE. The whole NAMBA vs IMPBA doesn't help FE in the long run. Knowing me like you do, you surely know hard it is for me to type that.

Yes, yes and yes. I have burried my hatchet. Sounds like you are too. B)

Eddie...you'll be wanting to drive the Miss US when you get to see it....did some testing yesterday.

 

[T.S.Davis]

It's usually a highlight of a race day when someone puts some ungoddly amount of power in a hull and all gather to the pond to watch. 9 times outta 10 we ohh and ahh until something breaks/ it flips/or blows up!

That reminds me. Remember when Kelly brought out that Titan 40 and ran it on LiPo for us at your Cup race? We all stopped what we were doing and watched as it blew off and tumbled like a stone. Then of course, we laughed are a$$e$ off.

1/8 scale is still like that for me. I don't think I want to race it. Screws up my watch'n them go time.

 

[eddieh]

If we all run at least similar rules an FE guy could race with who ever he could find. Knowing you Alan, I know that's what you want most of all. TO RACE. The whole NAMBA vs IMPBA doesn't help FE in the long run. Knowing me like you do, you surely know hard it is for me to type that.

Yes, yes and yes. I have burried my hatchet. Sounds like you are too. B)

Eddie...you'll be wanting to drive the Miss US when you get to see it....did some testing yesterday.

cool alan, I am sure it will be a top notch rig...

I was thinking you would be the first dude to put a 3080 in the new thunderboat class!!!!! I actually like the little more relaxed atmosphere for scale, but a 54 inch Hydro HAS to be cool...... I think they run them in district 1.... gotta catch them next year..

 

[Darin Jordan]

Darin I am Listening/Reading/whatever.... but who the heck am I that need convincing??? I am just a moderator... and a NAMBA member

Eddie,

I just see you as someone that others on RRR listen to and respect your opinion... Basically, we need you on our side!

If we increase the proposed lengths of P for NAMBA, and it passes... I can promise you that I'll resume my plans to built a 1527 powered 36" Delta Force for P-Mono and things will get REALLY ugly..... Help save the rest of NAMBA from this happening and support a 34" max length for P/E2...

 

[eddieh]

Darin I am Listening/Reading/whatever.... but who the heck am I that need convincing??? I am just a moderator... and a NAMBA member

Eddie,

I just see you as someone that others on RRR listen to and respect your opinion... Basically, we need you on our side!

If we increase the proposed lengths of P for NAMBA, and it passes... I can promise you that I'll resume my plans to built a 1527 powered 36" Delta Force for P-Mono and things will get REALLY ugly..... Help save the rest of NAMBA from this happening and support a 34" max length for P/E2...

cool bring it on Baby....... B)

There are more to the rules then just lengths, and I have been talking with douggie Jr,sr, and I need to rely on their expertise, but I promise to keep an open mind, it was brought up on the other forum about a NAMBA FORUM where you had to be a namba member to get in, I do think that would be useful, or at least a site where our district reps could discuss things without all the what ifs etc, I am not convinced yet about the lengths where they are but I am beginning to see that restrictions in lengths are required, but I am not so convinced where.

a question would you build this 36 monster just to race locally? what's the sense to it? or is this the travel unit???