FUEL QUESTION - PROPYLENE OXIDE

[Scott Norris]

"Not just trying to win races... but continually trying new things to see what works best... "

Roger, You're correct! I forgot to mention that John's brand new boat had some changes over the previous one. Things that were untested until the second round in Atlanta. John will race this boat in a few more races to be sure the new changes are working as we expect before they go into a production boat.

The race coarse is the only true test for a race boat. 90% of our testing goes on there. The practice pond only gets us close if we've made some far out change.

Andy you can just shoot that old mule test boat my way after ya'll get done with it. You have my address. I'll pick up the shipping of course.

:lol: :lol: :lol: Scott.....

How about if I promise to go whip Kevin Bulifant's Hiney with it??? :lol:

 

[izitbrokeyet?]

Gee….I was going to stay outta this…but Chucks little brother had to go talking about whoopin hinies with the nunchucks made from two bottles of Prope and some soap on a rope.

Not gonna happen bro.

Someone should mention that Prope is an igniter that will lower the wavefront initiation temp. The consequences of this are basically the same as lowering the octane in gas. You’ll lower the ignition temp or you can use a higher temp plug to efficiently burn the charge with lower compression, BUT if it’s used in a higher compression engine it Will likely cause Pre-ignitoin. Ie. If it’s accidentally put in a motor designed for high CRs there will likely be damage as a result (craters, pits, rod damage, the usual stuff).

Just trying to be helpful

 

[Scott Norris]

Gee….I was going to stay outta this…but Chucks little brother had to go talking about whoopin hinies with the nunchucks made from two bottles of Prope and some soap on a rope.

Not gonna happen bro.

Someone should mention that Prope is an igniter that will lower the wavefront initiation temp. The consequences of this are basically the same as lowering the octane in gas. You’ll lower the ignition temp or you can use a higher temp plug to efficiently burn the charge with lower compression, BUT if it’s used in a higher compression engine it Will likely cause Pre-ignitoin. Ie. If it’s accidentally put in a motor designed for high CRs there will likely be damage as a result (craters, pits, rod damage, the usual stuff).

Just trying to be helpful

Food for thought Kevin!! Thanks for the input!

 

[AndyBrown]

Gee….I was going to stay outta this…but Chucks little brother had to go talking about whoopin hinies with the nunchucks made from two bottles of Prope and some soap on a rope.

Not gonna happen bro.

Someone should mention that Prope is an igniter that will lower the wavefront initiation temp. The consequences of this are basically the same as lowering the octane in gas. You’ll lower the ignition temp or you can use a higher temp plug to efficiently burn the charge with lower compression, BUT if it’s used in a higher compression engine it Will likely cause Pre-ignitoin. Ie. If it’s accidentally put in a motor designed for high CRs there will likely be damage as a result (craters, pits, rod damage, the usual stuff).

Just trying to be helpful

Yep, another good reason not to use the stuff. If the engine is designed to burn very high nitro it does not need igniters.

I've successful run 90% nitro with 10% oil. No additives.

 

[Jim Allen]

Gee….I was going to stay outta this…but Chucks little brother had to go talking about whoopin hinies with the nunchucks made from two bottles of Prope and some soap on a rope.

Not gonna happen bro.

Someone should mention that Prope is an igniter that will lower the wavefront initiation temp. The consequences of this are basically the same as lowering the octane in gas. You’ll lower the ignition temp or you can use a higher temp plug to efficiently burn the charge with lower compression, BUT if it’s used in a higher compression engine it Will likely cause Pre-ignitoin. Ie. If it’s accidentally put in a motor designed for high CRs there will likely be damage as a result (craters, pits, rod damage, the usual stuff).

Just trying to be helpful

Yep, another good reason not to use the stuff. If the engine is designed to burn very high nitro it does not need igniters.

I've successful run 90% nitro with 10% oil. No additives.

ditto it was just hard to start

The next time you try to use this stuff make a starting fluid to prime the engine; 5% nitro, 50% menthanol; 25% oil & 20% prop by volume. This will start even wet engines.

 

[John Knight]

I thought that a posting a while back said that a little shot of lighter fluid in the carb would help start a stubborn engine. Little being the key word. Is that true? Do I recall right? Or do I have a senior moment?

 

[izitbrokeyet?]

Re: Carcinogens

This is all very good information both from a boating and safety perspective. But as a chemist by trade, I am far more fearful of hydrazine then PO and am glad the organizations have restricted its use. FYI; hydrazine in solid form is fuel for the space shuttle.

Just for grins people should read the MSDS on NaCl (table salt); pretty toxic stuff! Point is, MSDS sheets are often goofy to read and assume a certain knowledge.

Back to boating; I think there is something to be said for "fresh" fuels. I'm not talking about fresh from the manufacturer, but rather the "freshness" of the ingredients, nitro in particular. I have my fuel mixed by PowerMist and always wait until a fresh drum of nitro arrives.

Jim, I for one am happy to see solid science brought into the discussion. What are the homolytic BDEs (bond dissociation energies) for ethylene oxide and propylene oxide as I would think the opposite as you described?

Rick

One last Post,

Before I disappear from this forum for another couple of months I would hope for everyone in here that they listen to what Dr. Cesati has to say. THIS IS NO JOKE and SHOULD BE TAKEN VERY SERIOUSLY….the chemicals we play with are deadly. I’ve spent over 100 hours in the last year ..sometimes every day receiving Grads from a machine and I have tattoos that I see every morning to remind me of how lucky I am to spend more time with my loved ones. I cant explain how sad it is to be faced with this while so young….with a family. For those who don’t know my background, I’ve been fortunate enough to play with High HP/weight machines since the late 1980s ;the reward for playing with Nitro and other chemicals is very large, but the consequences are equal. ……I should point out now that I don’t even change the oil in my cars without nitrile gloves on..

I’m 38 years old with bone cancer…….wear gloves, nitrile or latex works fine.

adios for now,

KB

 

[Joe_Knesek]

John, it wasn't even cold enough to gain any advantage that Prope would have provided. It would have evaporated with the amount of heat we had. A good rule of thumb is if you don't need a ski mask to run your boat doesn't need prope.

If your boat isn't starting in cold weather, a shot of WD40 will fire it up.

 

[John Knight]

Kevin and Joe,

I am not intending to use PO. I simply asked the initial question and found out a great deal from all of you. Benefits are few and hazards are high. Enough to keep me away. Thanks for the honest answers. From the info provided I WANT to stay away from PO.

My last question was not for last weekend. Just in general as well. If you have a stubborn engine getting started, will a shot of lighter fluid help get it going? Or is that the wrong stuff to use? I have seen some shoot liquid in the carb in June and it immediately fires. Liken it to starting fluid for nitro engines.

John

 

[AndyBrown]

Kevin and Joe,

I am not intending to use PO. I simply asked the initial question and found out a great deal from all of you. Benefits are few and hazards are high. Enough to keep me away. Thanks for the honest answers. From the info provided I WANT to stay away from PO.

My last question was not for last weekend. Just in general as well. If you have a stubborn engine getting started, will a shot of lighter fluid help get it going? Or is that the wrong stuff to use? I have seen some shoot liquid in the carb in June and it immediately fires. Liken it to starting fluid for nitro engines.

John

Yes John, we always keep a can of Zippo lighter fluid stored in our fuel caddy and use it when required (high nitro and/or cold weather).

 

[John Knight]

Kevin and Joe,

I am not intending to use PO. I simply asked the initial question and found out a great deal from all of you. Benefits are few and hazards are high. Enough to keep me away. Thanks for the honest answers. From the info provided I WANT to stay away from PO.

My last question was not for last weekend. Just in general as well. If you have a stubborn engine getting started, will a shot of lighter fluid help get it going? Or is that the wrong stuff to use? I have seen some shoot liquid in the carb in June and it immediately fires. Liken it to starting fluid for nitro engines.

John

Yes John, we always keep a can of Zippo lighter fluid stored in our fuel caddy and use it when required (high nitro and/or cold weather).

I thought it was you that made the comment a while back but did not want to say in case I was wrong. Thanks guys for all the sage advice about the PO. While it may have some applications, I think the bad outweighs the good.

 

[Mark Bullard]

One thing that a lot of people miss on cranking engines warm or cold. These glow plug drivers that everone uses will not light a plug very well in cold weather or a very wet motor. The nicad one are only 1.2 volts, a standard glow plug is 1.5 volt. I once used C or D size dry cell batteries to start motors. I would take four batteries and solder them together in parallel. This would crank any engine so long as the motor had a good plug and fuel to run. I have seen a motor crank a few times if the piston was in the right position and the motor had fuel compressed by just placing the glow plug lighter onto the glow plug. The nicad drivers work pretty good in warm weather and if the motor is not wet.

We now use a 2 volt lead acid battery that lights a plug very well. We just use a nicad charger and so it does not bring the voltage to high. We also start turning the motor and moving fuel thru the motor to wet the plug before we place the battery to the plug.

Mark Bullard

 

[John Knight]

One thing that a lot of people miss on cranking engines warm or cold. These glow plug drivers that everone uses will not light a plug very well in cold weather or a very wet motor. The nicad one are only 1.2 volts, a standard glow plug is 1.5 volt. I once used C or D size dry cell batteries to start motors. I would take four batteries and solder them together in parallel. This would crank any engine so long as the motor had a good plug and fuel to run. I have seen a motor crank a few times if the piston was in the right position and the motor had fuel compressed by just placing the glow plug lighter onto the glow plug. The nicad drivers work pretty good in warm weather and if the motor is not wet.

We now use a 2 volt lead acid battery that lights a plug very well. We just use a nicad charger and so it does not bring the voltage to high. We also start turning the motor and moving fuel thru the motor to wet the plug before we place the battery to the plug.

Mark Bullard

Mark,

I also use the same 2V battery for my igniter. But someone "helped" themselves to mine on Saturday afternoon in Atlanta and discarded my clip in the trash, which was found on Sunday morning. I had just bought the battery on Tuesday so I would have fresh one for the race. Looks like there was a lightfingered Louie at the race that got your radio and my igniter. Of course, they did not "discover" their mistake before we left either. Hope they sleep well at night.

John

 

[Scott Norris]

One thing that a lot of people miss on cranking engines warm or cold. These glow plug drivers that everone uses will not light a plug very well in cold weather or a very wet motor. The nicad one are only 1.2 volts, a standard glow plug is 1.5 volt. I once used C or D size dry cell batteries to start motors. I would take four batteries and solder them together in parallel. This would crank any engine so long as the motor had a good plug and fuel to run. I have seen a motor crank a few times if the piston was in the right position and the motor had fuel compressed by just placing the glow plug lighter onto the glow plug. The nicad drivers work pretty good in warm weather and if the motor is not wet.

We now use a 2 volt lead acid battery that lights a plug very well. We just use a nicad charger and so it does not bring the voltage to high. We also start turning the motor and moving fuel thru the motor to wet the plug before we place the battery to the plug.

Mark Bullard

Mark,

I also use the same 2V battery for my igniter. But someone "helped" themselves to mine on Saturday afternoon in Atlanta and discarded my clip in the trash, which was found on Sunday morning. I had just bought the battery on Tuesday so I would have fresh one for the race. Looks like there was a lightfingered Louie at the race that got your radio and my igniter. Of course, they did not "discover" their mistake before we left either. Hope they sleep well at night.

John

And they got my Pit Table so they'd have a place to put all the stolen stuff. :angry:

 

[Mark Bullard]

Just think all they need now is a starter and a boat and they will have it made. I have some ideas on my radio but I will keep them to myself.

Mark

 

[Joe Warren]

Mark we lost a 2.0v glowbee on friday But it came back later in the same day..... I lost my pit table @ the conclusion of 04 nats. NEVER to be Seen again..... Somethings dont bother me. But a Radio I would be P.O. .....P.S. get a rope & get rid of MIKEY too..........

 

[impba3548]

Back in the days gone by I used to use a tablespoon of prope in a quart of fuel strictly for an igniter, I liked to mix the fuel in the morning for running in the afternoon. I used a transistorized glow driver on a 12 volt battery, it adjusted the voltage to the plug to keep it glowing red even in a loaded engine. When the boats had to be started with a rope, every aid in the book was sometimes not enough!!

I still have that glowdriver too... I think it was from a plan in an RC magazine, a bit of a project to build but worth it in those days.......

mike

 

[bzubee]

Hey Mike considering how OLD you are it probably uses TUBEs in the glow driver! :lol:

 

[John Knight]

A lot of negative info was given regarding the PO. There is a race fuel supplier for dragsters near me that blends racing fuels. The manager says he will not let PO in his building "due to the ability of your grandchildren growing extra sets of arms out of their backs if you use this stuff." Quite an indictment against.

Mark Bullard noted that he used acteone in place of PO. Is that a better (safer) alternative and will it serve the same purpose? How about performance? It is certainly much cheaper from what I found out about the price of PO.

 

[dave roach]

John

Acetone is a good blender for your fuel and you will'nt see any differance in the way it runs. It will start better, and when the engine is flooded.

John do you remmber about 10 years ago when the nitro factory burnt down and you could'nt get nitro ,I mixed my fuel with acetone and alc and kl-100 and it ran real will.

I still use acetone in my mix.

Dave Roach