FUEL QUESTION - PROPYLENE OXIDE

[John Knight]

I was at the spring nats this past weekend and several boats were far and above faster than others. I know that a past discussion on this board was help about the fuel additive propylene oxide (PO) and it's effect and legality under the racing associations.

A call was made to one fuel manufacturer this morning and they stated that 2% PO is now being added to almost all fuels being made now (essentially by all major fuel manufacturers) to give it an extra kick. That person then asked if any boats were behaving in a certain manner, such as starting, revving high, launching like a rocket, faster than others while running, etc. If so, then most likely they have more than 2% PO in the fuel - probably triple that amount, according to that source.

Is PO legal under IMPBA, NAMBA or APBA? If not under IMPBA (since I race under that assn), where is it specifically outlawed in the rule book? How can it be tested and enforced - not that I want to start it. What happens if the fuel manufacturers is making the fuel with it in the blends? Rules and enforceability? If the rule exists, is it archaic or past it's time?

I am NOT trying to start a war but trying to find out if PO is legal because it was so obvious that several racers were far and above the others. I have been in this hobby far too long to accept the junk that the boat, setup, pipe and prop made the difference. No way. There is a reason.

 

[Josh Stollfuss]

From the IMPBA Rule book page K3 Technical Standards:

Fuel Restrictions,

The use of Tetra Nitro Menthane or Hydrazine is illegal in all phases of model boating controlled by the IMPBA. Any memeber found using these will be banned from the IMPBA for one year. In addition, he will have to reimburse to the IMPBA the entire fuel analyzing costs prior to being allowed to rejoin this organization.

 

[John Knight]

From the IMPBA Rule book page K3 Technical Standards:

Fuel Restrictions,

The use of Tetra Nitro Menthane or Hydrazine is illegal in all phases of model boating controlled by the IMPBA. Any memeber found using these will be banned from the IMPBA for one year. In addition, he will have to reimburse to the IMPBA the entire fuel analyzing costs prior to being allowed to rejoin this organization.

Is PO the same as Tetra Nitro and Hydrazine? They are specifically mentioned but not PO by name unless it is another chemical name that I do not know of. Very possible. That is why I am asking.

 

[Eric Bourlet]

I just went through the NAMBA rule book and can find no mention of any kind of fuel restrictions in any of the Glow section. The only restrictions are in some of the GAS classes. I would question if what you saw was caused by PO being added. It was more likely just the guy may have been running higher nitro in the 3.5 and smaller motors, or his setup, head clearance, prop choice ... I hope someone like Andy chimes in on this but as I understand it the main advantage to adding prop is for cold weather starting. It boils off at a low temperature. Heck I remember when guys first started running cut back 1450s in 7.5 OPC and there were guys grousing that there is no way a stock motor could run that fast and implied that the guy was cheating just because he had figured out the right prop and setup.

 

[Josh Stollfuss]

I'm not sure about PO, but it may be some derivative of the fuels mentioned?? Would be interesting to find out though.

Josh-

 

[John Knight]

Eric,

Please do not understand! I am NOT saying anyone is cheating at all. I can guarantee high nitro of 70% or higher was being used, even with the 80 and 90 engines. It is more than just set up, etc. I know what one racer uses for his head clearances and they are not tight in the least. The engines are substantially modified - nothing is stock.

Point is that maybe there is another additive, that is a loophole in the rules or is perfectly legal, that is being used that makes that difference. But it IS noticable. Both Andy and John Brown was there as well. Many from the Who's who list were also there. And leading the pack with the best running boats and driving like they stole them! Fun to watch the pros duking it out.

John

I'm not sure about PO, but it may be some derivative of the fuels mentioned?? Would be interesting to find out though.

Josh-

You nailed my question in the center! My only point I am making. The fuel manufacturer says it is legal and more commonly used that many of us know. I want confirmation of it.

 

[Jim Allen]

John,

I have tested propylene oxide (C3H60) in amounts from 5% to 17% in high nitro methane fuels. I have also tested ethylene oxide (C2H40) in amounts from 5% to 13% in high nitro methane fuels. Both chemicals can be considered igniters, but neither work well in large amounts when combined with menthanol alcohol (CH40). Please note that nitro methane (CH3NO2) is 53% oxygen by weight; menthanol alcohol is 50% oxygen by weight; ethylene oxide is 36% oxygen by weight & proplyene oxide is 27% oxygen by weight. These igniters, proplylene & ethylene, when combined with nitro contents greater then 75% can make substantial increases in HP. This increase is not due to an increase in RPM, but an increase in torque. I have found that a fuel formula of 80% nitro; 12% ethylene & 8% oil will burn in any size engine (.15 to .90 cu in), giving a large increase in torque over the entire RPM range. I prefer to use ethylene over proplylene because the oxygen bond is not as strong. The needling of this fuel is extremely easy in different air temperatures; humidities; altitudes & will always require a richer needle setting than any standard fuels. There is nothing in the IMPBA or NAMBA rule book about the use of these chemicals.

Tetranitromethane [C(NO2)4], & hydrazine (NH2NH2) have been outlawed for some time. All of the above chemicals are extremely dangerous & should not be used without material safety data knowledge. In fact some of these chemicals can be HYPERGOLIC!!

Jim Allen

 

[Wally Marsh]

I just went through the NAMBA rule book and can find no mention of any kind of fuel restrictions in any of the Glow section. The only restrictions are in some of the GAS classes. I would question if what you saw was caused by PO being added. It was more likely just the guy may have been running higher nitro in the 3.5 and smaller motors, or his setup, head clearance, prop choice ... I hope someone like Andy chimes in on this but as I understand it the main advantage to adding prop is for cold weather starting. It boils off at a low temperature. Heck I remember when guys first started running cut back 1450s in 7.5 OPC and there were guys grousing that there is no way a stock motor could run that fast and implied that the guy was cheating just because he had figured out the right prop and setup.

I fully agree with Eric. Yes, there are those times when a single factor can make a difference. But consistently, it still come down to an optimized complete set of factors all working together that makes that one boat/driver combo stand out. I experienced this last year. Bought a Lynx tunnel and applied what worked in my previously competitive (but wrecked) Leecraft, did not follow Carl's suggestions (my mistake). Spent ALL summer fighting myself, finally worked out a good set-up, I got "lucky" it all came together last fall and I won to very competitive races. I watched other Lynx's also in my area last year, they aren't there yet, same hull, motors, pipes etc., just havn't found the optimal set up. I've got my work cut out this season, lots of good competition in the mid-west, but I'll keep working for that next stage.

the Wallster

 

[Glenn Quarles]

John, yes propylene oxide is legal in IMPBA. It is not the same as Tetra Nitro Menthane or Hydrazine. Like Eric said I have never seen a huge preformace gain from using it. I only use it (I use 4% max) with really high nitro (above 70% or so) in cold weather. It seems to help the smaller motors make enough heat to let them run.

Unless things have changed, I don't thing most of the fuel manufacturers put propylene is as a standard.

Hope this helps,

Glenn

 

[Mark Bullard]

I do not think that any one was using PO and there is nothing ilegal about running it. The problem with using it is you have to place in the fuel right before you use the fuel and it will be gone in a few hours. I mix my own fuel and I will tell you why. Most of the fuel manufactures mix by weight and not by volume. Just ask your fuel supplier. A gallon of 50% fuel mix by weight will only be somewhere between 35 and 45%. Now this will tell you what you are paying for.

I mix by volume, and the numbers that I use are 64 ounces of nitro, 28 ounces of Klotz KL 200 oil, 2 ounces of Acetone, and 34 ounces of Menthanol. Now I read somewhere that Acetone improves the firing of the fuel. I can't say if it does or not but it does improve cold weather starts. I run about 8.5 to 1 compression ratio on my K 90 motors and do very little mod to the motors. The rest is the boat and props.

Mark Bullard

 

[Marty Davis]

John, yes propylene oxide is legal in IMPBA. It is not the same as Tetra Nitro Menthane or Hydrazine. Like Eric said I have never seen a huge preformace gain from using it. I only use it (I use 4% max) with really high nitro (above 70% or so) in cold weather. It seems to help the smaller motors make enough heat to let them run.

Unless things have changed, I don't thing most of the fuel manufacturers put propylene is as a standard.

Hope this helps,

Glenn

Glenn:

I agree with you about "Prope". I doubt that many (any) fuel manufacturers put Prope in their fule. Why, because it is SO VOLITILE that it will actually evaporate THROUGH the plastic bottle and there will be no Prope left in the fuel.

I always ran a little Prope in every gallon of fuel that I mixed, BUT I put it in the jug as near as I could before the race or testing session.

As for engines runnin MUCH better, that is not correct. It will make a little difference only and mostly be helpful on days where there are temperature extremes.

Note: Engineer, Tom Grannis ALWAYS put a little Prope in his fuel regardless of the weather. That was reason enough for me to do the same. I did test it on the dyno and found reason to put it in.

It is NOT something that I would suggest that the typical boater seek out. It is reported to be VERY bad to breathe and that is a good reason NOT to run it.

Marty Davis

 

[steve wood]

I do not think that any one was using PO and there is nothing ilegal about running it. The problem with using it is you have to place in the fuel right before you use the fuel and it will be gone in a few hours. I mix my own fuel and I will tell you why. Most of the fuel manufactures mix by weight and not by volume. Just ask your fuel supplier. A gallon of 50% fuel mix by weight will only be somewhere between 35 and 45%. Now this will tell you what you are paying for.

I mix by volume, and the numbers that I use are 64 ounces of nitro, 28 ounces of Klotz KL 200 oil, 2 ounces of Acetone, and 34 ounces of Menthanol. Now I read somewhere that Acetone improves the firing of the fuel. I can't say if it does or not but it does improve cold weather starts. I run about 8.5 to 1 compression ratio on my K 90 motors and do very little mod to the motors. The rest is the boat and props.

Mark Bullard

i believe red max fuels have prop in them standard

 

[John Knight]

I do not think that any one was using PO and there is nothing ilegal about running it. The problem with using it is you have to place in the fuel right before you use the fuel and it will be gone in a few hours. I mix my own fuel and I will tell you why. Most of the fuel manufactures mix by weight and not by volume. Just ask your fuel supplier. A gallon of 50% fuel mix by weight will only be somewhere between 35 and 45%. Now this will tell you what you are paying for.

I mix by volume, and the numbers that I use are 64 ounces of nitro, 28 ounces of Klotz KL 200 oil, 2 ounces of Acetone, and 34 ounces of Menthanol. Now I read somewhere that Acetone improves the firing of the fuel. I can't say if it does or not but it does improve cold weather starts. I run about 8.5 to 1 compression ratio on my K 90 motors and do very little mod to the motors. The rest is the boat and props.

Mark Bullard

i believe red max fuels have prop in them standard

Steve,

You are CORRECT and that came from the factory this morning. 2% is added to every gallon they mix unless it is not requested by the buyer.

 

[dave roach]

Take a small glass of prope and throw it in the air and it will evaporate before hit the ground.

You have to put in your fuel tank just before you run to do any good.

Dave Roach

 

[SayMikey]

Take a small glass of prope and throw it in the air and it will evaporate before hit the ground.

You have to put in your fuel tank just before you run to do any good.

Dave Roach

Prope is too dangerous the the every day racer,the health problems it can cause are not worth the effort. A lot more can be gained by setup and repeated testing and tinkering with props and such. Someone should post the MSDS sheet on it maybe IMPBA would also ban it if they read the sheet

 

[SayMikey]

Take a small glass of prope and throw it in the air and it will evaporate before hit the ground.

You have to put in your fuel tank just before you run to do any good.

Dave Roach

Prope is too dangerous the the every day racer,the health problems it can cause are not worth the effort. A lot more can be gained by setup and repeated testing and tinkering with props and such. Someone should post the MSDS sheet on it maybe IMPBA would also ban it if they read the sheet

https://www.intlwaters.com/gallery/albums/userp...ene%20oxide.pdf

 

[mark voorhies]

I do not think that any one was using PO and there is nothing ilegal about running it. The problem with using it is you have to place in the fuel right before you use the fuel and it will be gone in a few hours. I mix my own fuel and I will tell you why. Most of the fuel manufactures mix by weight and not by volume. Just ask your fuel supplier. A gallon of 50% fuel mix by weight will only be somewhere between 35 and 45%. Now this will tell you what you are paying for.

I mix by volume, and the numbers that I use are 64 ounces of nitro, 28 ounces of Klotz KL 200 oil, 2 ounces of Acetone, and 34 ounces of Menthanol. Now I read somewhere that Acetone improves the firing of the fuel. I can't say if it does or not but it does improve cold weather starts. I run about 8.5 to 1 compression ratio on my K 90 motors and do very little mod to the motors. The rest is the boat and props.

Mark Bullard

i believe red max fuels have prop in them standard

Steve,

You are CORRECT and that came from the factory this morning. 2% is added to every gallon they mix unless it is not requested by the buyer.

I would wonder how much of the Prope is still there if you have your fuel exsposed to

air for even a few minutes? Thats what I was told from researching a couple years ago

before startin to mix fuel.

 

[Don Templeton]

"NUFF SAID"

I don't think I'll be using that stuff anytime soon! :lol: :lol:

 

[dave roach]

Mark

If the fuel has 2% prope in the gallon and you left it open it would last a few seconds.

 

[mark voorhies]

MarkIf the fuel has 2% prope in the gallon and you left it open it would last a few seconds.

Yep, thats what I heard.