FUEL QUESTION - PROPYLENE OXIDE

[AndyBrown]

Take a small glass of prope and throw it in the air and it will evaporate before hit the ground.

You have to put in your fuel tank just before you run to do any good.

Dave Roach

Prope is too dangerous the the every day racer,the health problems it can cause are not worth the effort. A lot more can be gained by setup and repeated testing and tinkering with props and such. Someone should post the MSDS sheet on it maybe IMPBA would also ban it if they read the sheet

It IS IMPBA Legal, but it should not be. It is NOT NHRA Legal. I ran it once in my life. After 10 laps my head was in a fog. I couldn't think straight.

I know the guys who run it at Record trials and when they are running I always stay up wind.

John Brown had by far the fastest 67 hydro in Atlanta, he was running Nitro, Methanol and oil. NO SPECIAL ADDITIVES! Oh, and his engine is for sale......no special tricks to hide.

I ran a single 84 in F Hydro. It was very fast too. Tied for second overall and I did run the first round.

I have run over 125 mph on the West and East coast using 70% nitro, 18% Methanol, 12% Syn. No Additives. B)

It REALLY is a combination of ALL of the fine details from paint to prop and everything in between.

 

[Rudy Formanek]

Ethylene oxide ( a cousin to propylene oxide) has been phased out of hospitals which used to use it for sterilyzation. It seems it's now on the carcinogen list and hospitals don't want the liability. PO is a close chemical cousin. Used to run PO, don't anymore, I saw very little difference. I would vote to make it illegal, because of health concerns not performance reasons. Sounds like a good show for the Myth Busters. Just my $.02

 

[bzubee]

Mike I have the NIOSH spec on prop and it is no more dangerous than the methanol we us eit is on oxygenator and it is a Class 1A flammable liquid same as Methanol also should avoid contact with skin and eyes also the same for Methanol. MSDS sheets are easy to come by for any of the chemicals we use including berilliyum used in most propellers. (Sorry for the spelling but is late) There is no need to over react on this additive it is no more dangerous than any of the other many chemicals we all use in model boating.

 

[mark voorhies]

Mike I have the NIOSH spec on prop and it is no more dangerous than the methanol we us eit is on oxygenator and it is a Class 1A flammable liquid same as Methanol also should avoid contact with skin and eyes also the same for Methanol. MSDS sheets are easy to come by for any of the chemicals we use including berilliyum used in most propellers. (Sorry for the spelling but is late) There is no need to over react on this additive it is no more dangerous than any of the other many chemicals we all use in model boating.

Don't forget in it's pure state, boils at about 92degrees. inside a trailor, not a good thing.

 

[Rudy Formanek]

I copied this from the US MSDS:

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

3. HAZARDS IDENTIFICATIONChap. 3

Emergency Overview

[Appearance and OdourAppearance (form and colour)and odour] [:] Colourless. Liquid. Sweet.

Health Hazards Health hazards : Harmful by inhalation. Irritating to respiratory system. Harmful in contact with skin. Irritating to skin. Irritating to eyes. Harmful if swallowed. May cause cancer.

Safety Hazards Safety Hazards : Extremely flammable. Extreme risk of explosion by shock, friction, fire or other sources of ignition. Vapours are heavier than air. Vapours may travel across the ground and reach remote ignition sources causing a flashback fire danger.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Notice it said-- May cause cancer. Hmm, when they say cancer, I take notice.

Granted a lot of what we use is bad for us, but we should at least know the risks involved. California EPA has already banned the sale to the consumer in Cal. Soon it will probably be only available as a commercial chemical nationally.

 

[Rick Cesati]

Re: Carcinogens

This is all very good information both from a boating and safety perspective. But as a chemist by trade, I am far more fearful of hydrazine then PO and am glad the organizations have restricted its use. FYI; hydrazine in solid form is fuel for the space shuttle.

Just for grins people should read the MSDS on NaCl (table salt); pretty toxic stuff! Point is, MSDS sheets are often goofy to read and assume a certain knowledge.

Back to boating; I think there is something to be said for "fresh" fuels. I'm not talking about fresh from the manufacturer, but rather the "freshness" of the ingredients, nitro in particular. I have my fuel mixed by PowerMist and always wait until a fresh drum of nitro arrives.

Jim, I for one am happy to see solid science brought into the discussion. What are the homolytic BDEs (bond dissociation energies) for ethylene oxide and propylene oxide as I would think the opposite as you described?

Rick

 

[bzubee]

Now look up Gasoline and Methanol compare them. Plus provide a way to check for the additive.

 

As for Andy having problems this is nothing against Andy but he alos had problems with CA glue some people's systems are more sensative to chemicals than others but that is no reason to go off the deep end.

 

I copied this from the US MSDS:

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

3. HAZARDS IDENTIFICATIONChap. 3

 

Emergency Overview

 

[Appearance and OdourAppearance (form and colour)and odour] [:] Colourless. Liquid. Sweet.

 

 

 

 

Health Hazards Health hazards : Harmful by inhalation. Irritating to respiratory system. Harmful in contact with skin. Irritating to skin. Irritating to eyes. Harmful if swallowed. May cause cancer.

 

Safety Hazards Safety Hazards : Extremely flammable. Extreme risk of explosion by shock, friction, fire or other sources of ignition. Vapours are heavier than air. Vapours may travel across the ground and reach remote ignition sources causing a flashback fire danger.

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

Notice it said-- May cause cancer. Hmm, when they say cancer, I take notice.

 

Granted a lot of what we use is bad for us, but we should at least know the risks involved. California EPA has already banned the sale to the consumer in Cal. Soon it will probably be only available as a commercial chemical nationally.

 

[SayMikey]

Now look up Gasoline and Methanol compare them. Plus provide a way to check for the additive.

 

As for Andy having problems this is nothing against Andy but he alos had problems with CA glue some people's systems are more sensative to chemicals than others but that is no reason to go off the deep end.

 

I copied this from the US MSDS:

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

3. HAZARDS IDENTIFICATIONChap. 3

 

Emergency Overview

 

[Appearance and OdourAppearance (form and colour)and odour] [:] Colourless. Liquid. Sweet.

 

 

 

 

Health Hazards Health hazards : Harmful by inhalation. Irritating to respiratory system. Harmful in contact with skin. Irritating to skin. Irritating to eyes. Harmful if swallowed. May cause cancer.

 

Safety Hazards Safety Hazards : Extremely flammable. Extreme risk of explosion by shock, friction, fire or other sources of ignition. Vapours are heavier than air. Vapours may travel across the ground and reach remote ignition sources causing a flashback fire danger.

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

Notice it said-- May cause cancer. Hmm, when they say cancer, I take notice.

 

Granted a lot of what we use is bad for us, but we should at least know the risks involved. California EPA has already banned the sale to the consumer in Cal. Soon it will probably be only available as a commercial chemical nationally.

PERSONALLY I THINK THAT IMPBA SHOULD INCLUDE A PRECAUTIONARY WARNING PAGE ABOUT ALL THE DIFFERENT THINGS WE USE TO HELP GUIDE NEW AND OLD BOATERS ALIKE ABOUT THE STUFF WE USE. OK i know if you buy a pack of cigarettes is has a warning label no one reads it but the kid that is getting smoke blowed in their face. We all know most hazards yeck i still see boaters get in the water while others zoom by in very fast boats. It does not hurt to at least say you tried to warn about hazards no matter what or where they might be lurking.......Mike

 

[Rick Doane]

I used to always mix my own fuel for years. Propylene oxide in small percentages is useful depending on what you want to accomplish. It is very unstable especially in its pure form. I remember having a pint can of it and coming home from college one summer, I had to stop at a fast food place to get some ice to keep the can from bursting. However it is very useful in its pure state during the winter months to at least light the glow plug. Just inject a couple of drops into the venturi and your engine will fire.

I believe Mark Bullard has a good idea with the acetone. I would suggest varing the percentage of acetone to see where the advantage actually is. I have read articles that in gasoline and diesel engines, a small amount (1-3 oz. per 10 gallons of gas and between 1-2 oz. per 10 gallons of diesel) provides 10 to 35 percent increase in fuel mileage. I use acetone to start weed eaters etc. when they are being difficult to start any other way.

The whole idea is to stuff as much oxygen into the combustion chamber as possible. All of the ingredients in our fuel contains oxygen molecules. Additives in the fuel help atomize (reduce surface tension) to increase the vaporization for combustion. Like Mr. Zuber said, berylium is probably one of the most toxic materials we encounter and we can be exposed to it through many pathways.

When all is said and done, attention to the details of the boat/motor/prop is where the most performance gain is realized.

 

[Jim Allen]

Re: Carcinogens

This is all very good information both from a boating and safety perspective. But as a chemist by trade, I am far more fearful of hydrazine then PO and am glad the organizations have restricted its use. FYI; hydrazine in solid form is fuel for the space shuttle.

Just for grins people should read the MSDS on NaCl (table salt); pretty toxic stuff! Point is, MSDS sheets are often goofy to read and assume a certain knowledge.

Back to boating; I think there is something to be said for "fresh" fuels. I'm not talking about fresh from the manufacturer, but rather the "freshness" of the ingredients, nitro in particular. I have my fuel mixed by PowerMist and always wait until a fresh drum of nitro arrives.

Jim, I for one am happy to see solid science brought into the discussion. What are the homolytic BDEs (bond dissociation energies) for ethylene oxide and propylene oxide as I would think the opposite as you described?

Rick

Rick,

I have been told by several chemist that dissociation & burning both take place when using large amounts of ethylene oxide & nitro methane together. I do not know the energies evolved in this exothermic reaction, but I am told that some energy must be supplied in the form of heat & pressure to break the chemical bonds.

Jim

 

[AWaddle322]

John Brown had by far the fastest 67 hydro in Atlanta quoted by Andy Brown.

Andy,

This is not a personnel attack on you but why is it if John had by far the fastest 67 hydro that he did not finish in the top three. We all know that John is one of the most talented course drivers that most have ever known. My point in this is it does not take a great talanent to have a one lap wonder.What does take a special talent is to set up a boat not to lose and not to tight, set the needle not to rich and not to lean, be able to hit the start and be able to finish 6 laps after the clock expires.

Lets give credit where credit is due. Frank secrest had the fastest and most consistant 60 hydro at atlanta Eric Canto had the second fastest and so on.

Sincerely,

Allen

 

[AndyBrown]

John Brown had by far the fastest 67 hydro in Atlanta quoted by Andy Brown.

Andy,

This is not a personnel attack on you but why is it if John had by far the fastest 67 hydro that he did not finish in the top three. We all know that John is one of the most talented course drivers that most have ever known. My point in this is it does not take a great talanent to have a one lap wonder.What does take a special talent is to set up a boat not to lose and not to tight, set the needle not to rich and not to lean, be able to hit the start and be able to finish 6 laps after the clock expires.

Lets give credit where credit is due. Frank secrest had the fastest and most consistant 60 hydro at atlanta Eric Canto had the second fastest and so on.

Sincerely,

Allen

Allan,

Frank and Eric had good running boats and they have gotten their recognation in receiving their 1st and 2nd place tropheis.

Anyone who watched the 67 hydro races can tell you just how fast John's boat was.

Since you're asking why he didn't finish in the top three I'll explain.

John showed up in Atlanta Sat. Morning with a brand new 67 boat that had not seen water.

He missed the first round of racing with it because he was still putting it together Sat. morning.

In the second round he took easy to feel out the boat. It was a bit loose, but he finished.

I think he won the Third round.

The fouth round he got a late start, spun the boat trying to avoid a crash, got going again, got watered down, got going again, caught most of the pack and finished the heat behind Eric.

John finished every heat he ran, So No it wasn't a "one lap wonder" !

I tied for 2nd in F hydro using the same New 67 boat with an 84 in it. I also did not run the first round, because I didn't show up in Atlanta until Sat. afternoon. I was not there hunting trophies, so I didn't run the run off with Greg David who also tied for second.

Allan,

I personally think Stu had the fastest twin, but he didn't finish at the top in qualifying and he did'nt finish the final. That doesn't mean it wasn't fast.

Bob Morton won the Twin race, so I guess he had the the 1st Fastest twin.

 

[Roger Hooks Jr.]

You know before I knew Andy... I said that guy really ain't that great... or that fast... but then I saw his K90 go from about 30mph to 92 from the exit of turn two to the start finish line in heat race set-up, in a proof session against a now forgetten Brian Neal and a still respected Steve O' Donnel... back in... what was that 1997? Yah... I still remember that...

He and John also stayed up all night to build "ME", a guy he only met once in 1997, (from someone elses wrecked boat ) a .67 Eagle SG which became without a doubt "THE FASTEST BOAT" (Fast time of the nats) at the nats in 1999. So I can say I have first hand proof and would believe without even seeing it that most likely he was the fastest...

But in knowing him, I would think that almost every heat is R & D. Not sure... but that is what I would do if I was in the business of building boats. Not just trying to win races... but continually trying new things to see what works best... so I could then include the improvements into the next batch of boats I put out so my customers could benefit. So some things might work and some things might not, which may lead to DNFs. As far as finishing and winning every heat... That is what he is expecting us to do. (Those people that race his products). What fun would the "Race Report" be on http://www.cmdracing.com if all we saw was his and John's face all the time?

You know... I raced John Brown once in 20 Hydro and I beat him... so I guess I can say that I am undefeated against John...I never lost a race!!! LOL!

...but what I won't tell you is that he kept falling off the pipe...for sensationlism... I left that part out. Like Most Do... LOL!

...but getting back to the post...

 

[bzubee]

Mike I like your idea we are already attempting to do something like that to cover disposal and maintenance for batteries that all Model boaters use. I'm not sure if we could list al of the items since that could fill a seperate book. But it would be good to have a general warning for all items and procedures we use in our hobby. I will bring this up to our National Safety Director.

PERSONALLY I THINK THAT IMPBA SHOULD INCLUDE A PRECAUTIONARY WARNING PAGE ABOUT ALL THE DIFFERENT THINGS WE USE TO HELP GUIDE NEW AND OLD BOATERS ALIKE ABOUT THE STUFF WE USE. OK i know if you buy a pack of cigarettes is has a warning label no one reads it but the kid that is getting smoke blowed in their face. We all know most hazards yeck i still see boaters get in the water while others zoom by in very fast boats. It does not hurt to at least say you tried to warn about hazards no matter what or where they might be lurking.......Mike

 

[AndyBrown]

"Not just trying to win races... but continually trying new things to see what works best... "

Roger, You're correct! I forgot to mention that John's brand new boat had some changes over the previous one. Things that were untested until the second round in Atlanta. John will race this boat in a few more races to be sure the new changes are working as we expect before they go into a production boat.

The race coarse is the only true test for a race boat. 90% of our testing goes on there. The practice pond only gets us close if we've made some far out change.

 

[Marty Davis]

I would make this suggestion, IF you choose to use Prope.

KEEP IT IN THE REFRIGERATOR AND NEVER OUT IN THE OPEN (ESPECIALLY SUN). :blink:

If you take it to the races, keep it in your drink cooler.

It is one of the most volitile liquids that I have ever seen and it could create a tremendous explosion if the vapors got in a confined space.

Marty Davis

 

[SayMikey]

I would make this suggestion, IF you choose to use Prope.

KEEP IT IN THE REFRIGERATOR AND NEVER OUT IN THE OPEN (ESPECIALLY SUN). :blink:

If you take it to the races, keep it in your drink cooler.

It is one of the most volitile liquids that I have ever seen and it could create a tremendous explosion if the vapors got in a confined space.

Marty Davis

Marty would you put it next to the orange juice or the milk? I know out in the garage next to the beer

 

[Jim Allen]

I would make this suggestion, IF you choose to use Prope.

KEEP IT IN THE REFRIGERATOR AND NEVER OUT IN THE OPEN (ESPECIALLY SUN). :blink:

If you take it to the races, keep it in your drink cooler.

It is one of the most volitile liquids that I have ever seen and it could create a tremendous explosion if the vapors got in a confined space.

Marty Davis

Absolutely CORRECT Marty! This chemical should NEVER be cooled then heated repeatedly. It will decompose & form a hazardous substance that may be explosive, flammable or toxic. Decomposition & polymerization can result in the release of a large amount of heat!

Jim :huh: :huh: :huh:

 

[Scott Norris]

"Not just trying to win races... but continually trying new things to see what works best... "

Roger, You're correct! I forgot to mention that John's brand new boat had some changes over the previous one. Things that were untested until the second round in Atlanta. John will race this boat in a few more races to be sure the new changes are working as we expect before they go into a production boat.

The race coarse is the only true test for a race boat. 90% of our testing goes on there. The practice pond only gets us close if we've made some far out change.

Andy you can just shoot that old mule test boat my way after ya'll get done with it. You have my address. I'll pick up the shipping of course.

 

[AndyBrown]

"Not just trying to win races... but continually trying new things to see what works best... "

Roger, You're correct! I forgot to mention that John's brand new boat had some changes over the previous one. Things that were untested until the second round in Atlanta. John will race this boat in a few more races to be sure the new changes are working as we expect before they go into a production boat.

The race coarse is the only true test for a race boat. 90% of our testing goes on there. The practice pond only gets us close if we've made some far out change.

Andy you can just shoot that old mule test boat my way after ya'll get done with it. You have my address. I'll pick up the shipping of course.

:lol: :lol: :lol: Scott.....