FE P-Limited Rules NAMBA and IMPBA and best choices!

[Darin Jordan]

And here is a good example of how it can quickly it can go to shiznit. Fire up a lathe, cut a can down and now an "illegal" motor becomes "legal". Nothing against you Mike my friend, I'm actually glad you brought this point up..........

First off... the Neu site list the 14XX series motors as being 1.43", which is 36.322. You'd only have to turn down 0.022" to be legal.

And... SO WHAT?? WHAT do you think the performance benefit of turning the OUTSIDE DIAMETER of a can down by 0.022mm will create?

It's going to reduce the overall MASS of the motor, reducing it's ability to handle heat, for one thing.

It's what's on the INSIDE that counts. Again, you can ONLY stuff SO MUCH into a can that size. Have at it... It's not going to break the class...

 

[Don Ferrette]

"It's going to reduce the overall MASS of the motor, reducing it's ability to handle heat, for one thing."

Actually with it being water cooled from the outside a thinner case may actually improve thermal transfer of heat to the water.

 

[Darin Jordan]

"It's going to reduce the overall MASS of the motor, reducing it's ability to handle heat, for one thing."

Actually with it being water cooled from the outside a thinner case may actually improve thermal transfer of heat to the water.

OK... Perhaps... but it still doesn't change the overall power output.

 

[RonShaw]

Guys,

These are all great points. One thing for sure, factory motors out of the box with no internal or external modifications allowed. We could keep a known "list" of approved motors, and if the motor that shows up is not on that approved list, its out, unless it fits the maximum dimensions in its factory state. I am with Don on this one, my opinion is to run factory or go to another class where the sky is the limit. The list will be monitored by the FE director of both organizations. If another motor shows up that meets the "factory" dimensions and is not on the list, contact with the FE director will get it added once verified. Yes guys will try to figure out a way past the rules, but as Darin mentioned, they could spend their money in a much better place such as props......

 

[Darin Jordan]

Guys,

These are all great points. One thing for sure, factory motors out of the box with no internal or external modifications allowed. We could keep a know "list" of approved motors, and if the motor that shows up is not on that approved list, its out, unless it fits the maximum dimensions in its factory state. I am with Don on this one, my opinion is to run factory or go to another class where the sky is the limit. The list will be monitored by the FE director of both organizations. If another motor shows up that meets the "factory" dimensions and is not on the list, contact with the FE director will get it added once verified.

And now you just stepped back into the pile of poop that is the present P-LTD Class rules. Teching NIGHTMARE... and, frankly, impossible to actually tech...

And... NONE of the concerns that this is supposed to address actually matter...

 

[RonShaw]

Okay, so your recommendations, they meet the maximum specs and if they want to spend money trying let em? I agree with you and Lohring that it wont do them much good. Just tossing everything out there for discussion.

 

[Darin Jordan]

Okay, so your recommendations, they meet the maximum specs and if they want to spend money trying let em? I agree with you and Lohring that it wont do them much good. Just tossing everything out there for discussion.

Yes, and I know.

This is one of the best conversations we've had on this topic in a long time. The possibility of "uniting" IMPBA and NAMBA on SOME level really is kind of inspiring.

Keep up the great thoughts.

 

[RonShaw]

I agree Darin. There is some great conversation here and if we again, keep the conversations respectful, the content and feedback plentiful, I think we can all get proposals to both sets of organization memberships that they can support.

 

[T.S.Davis]

The whole modified motor thinking dates back as long as I can remember.

Back in the brushed N1 days, guys would spend a ton of dough having a motor built by the "expert" of the day. You needed multiple or had to touch up the comm between heats. Oh and work the brushes to match the dia. Water cool the brush hoods. Ughhhh. There is always going to be a guy that is willing to do all that horse bleep. How about dunking a 700 motor into water on 3 volts for a couple hours to seat the brushes before you install it? "Rules didn't say not too!" Did they win? Sometimes. Usually those guys had spent all their time fiddling and forgot to learn to drive. Ya still have to hit the start, hold a lane, get around Junior. There's so much more to racing than that 1 mph.

Rules for a hobby like this are never going to be equal to NASCAR. They'll always rely on participants sense of respect for their fellow racer. There's no tech comity on site. Nobody is going to be out with a micrometer to check to the nearest .001mm. We're just model boaters. Is there some guy that will butcher a motor to circumvent the rules? Probably. Percentage gained? Don't know. Percentage of guys willing to try that? .05% of an already tiny populous? Don't know. Would I give one of my club members an endless ration of crap for getting bogged down in that level of minutia? You betcha.

I just don't think we can write and subsequently enforce a tight enough rule set to thwart a rule skirt-er. Not a cheater. I don't mean that. Someone that will exploit the grey areas.

 

[longballlumber]

Just curious...

The NEU 1415/1Y is listed to be 36.5mm Diameter. If I chuck it up in a lathe and turn down the OD an additional .2mm (.006") will it be legal?

That assumes the +/- production tolerances don’t already have that much variance.

And here is a good example of how it can quickly it can go to shiznit. Fire up a lathe, cut a can down and now an "illegal" motor becomes "legal". Nothing against you Mike my friend, I'm actually glad you brought this point up..........

Just to be clear to anyone reading this... I personally wouldn't go this extent; I was only trying to point out one of many possibilities of what racers are capable of. Mark my words: there will be someone that will try “something” to get the upper hand.

Heck, I don’t have time to work on, finish, or build the stuff I have on my bench or in my brain!!!!

I am completely comfortable with staying with in the intention of the class. As I have said before, I just hope the lack of limitations provides the parity that we are looking for.... Wait, that's what we are actually trying to do right?

 

[michael faszcza]

In the interest of sportsmanship and fe boat with a noticeable speed advantage over the faster nitro boats will be

asked to detune their boats to ensure competitive racing. If they do not comply, they shall be disqualified from the class for the race weekend. All Open Classes are exempt from this rule.this is a rule written in our district rules for fe

 

[michael faszcza]

As far as record runs .the easiest and most legal way is the participants that want to go for a record rent the spec esc and motor from said association and it is at the pond for you the morning you are to make the aattempt.if the renter burns up either product they pay replacement. Just a thought

 

[RonShaw]

Just curious...

The NEU 1415/1Y is listed to be 36.5mm Diameter. If I chuck it up in a lathe and turn down the OD an additional .2mm (.006") will it be legal?

That assumes the +/- production tolerances don’t already have that much variance.

And here is a good example of how it can quickly it can go to shiznit. Fire up a lathe, cut a can down and now an "illegal" motor becomes "legal". Nothing against you Mike my friend, I'm actually glad you brought this point up..........

Just to be clear to anyone reading this... I personally wouldn't go this extent; I was only trying to point out one of many possibilities of what racers are capable of. Mark my words: there will be someone that will try “something” to get the upper hand.

Heck, I don’t have time to work on, finish, or build the stuff I have on my bench or in my brain!!!!

I am completely comfortable with staying with in the intention of the class. As I have said before, I just hope the lack of limitations provides the parity that we are looking for.... Wait, that's what we are actually trying to do right?

Thanks Mike.

 

[HTV Boats]

I am not a fan of a total IROC style class. Same boat, motor, prop, ect. Limiting size on a brushless motor is not going to create the parity some want. It is a good start at equalizing power and keeping things closer. Choice of hull, prop and hours of setup is what makes racing fun. Give a new racer an opportunity and power within 10% of the class average and he has a fair chance. Props and setup will prevail, if you don't learn you won't do well. I do not see big incentive here to spend time and money and create some exotic custom motor. The largest issue is ease of enforcement and that will be the benefit here.

Mic

 

[RonShaw]

I had several ask me why I was interested in this. Easy, to help grow our hobby. Being the Novarossi Marine Distributor, I am obviously mostly nitro, but took an interest in FE a couple of years ago as another fun class to run. These set rules for IMPBA and NAMBA are warranted mostly for heat racing but if it works as a solid ground for SAW as well, that would be great. I have also noticed that novice and seasoned boaters both like these classes. Gives novices a better solid starting point in the hobby and gives the seasoned racers a great place to test setup and props. When your power is fixed and not susceptible to climate changes, its give you a great testing ground for setup/prop development that you can later carry over to your nitro and gas classes. I am glad we are making headway and stay tuned for a lot more feedback on this thread as we come up with solid proposals for both organizations.

 

[DPeterson]

How about the authors of this proposal list some of the motors that will now fit under these measurement guidelines. I am sure this information would go along ways in informing the members so they can digest what this change may mean. I see a couple options already that will push the P-Limited Sport Hydro speeds near the 60 mph area.

 

[RonShaw]

How about the authors of this proposal list some of the motors that will now fit under these measurement guidelines. I am sure this information would go along ways in informing the members so they can digest what this change may mean. I see a couple options already that will push the P-Limited Sport Hydro speeds near the 60 mph area.

DISCLAIMER: NOTHING about what I'm about to post is official in ANY WAY! I put these together simply to use an an example to our local club of how the rule might look "officially"...

Here is an example of what Terry and My thoughts on P-LTD might look like, "officially", based on the present NAMBA rulebook. Pretty basic, minimally intrusive rule-change, that is crystal clear on what is allowed. A simple go/no-go gauge or dial calipers would be all that's needed for tech.

P_LTD_MOTOR_PROPOSAL_DRAFT_01.JPG

P_LTD_MOTOR_PROPOSAL_DRAFT_02.JPG

Doug,
Here is a listing of the motors that Darin posted earlier, along with a first pass at the rules.

 

[DPeterson]

Yes - seen that list. That list was a bench testing of current motors along with some motors under discussion. This list does not contain many high end motors that will meet the proposed measurements.

You have to ask yourselves if you want to run this class up in the neighborhood of 60 mph. My Whip with a 2030 or my TP 3630 1950 already is doing 55. Both motors is way under the length measurement.

 

[Darin Jordan]

You have to ask yourselves if you want to run this class up in the neighborhood of 60 mph. My Whip with a 2030 or my TP 3630 1950 already is doing 55. Both motors is way under the length measurement.

That's not correct... the TP is NOT "way under the length"... it's 3.2mm advertised, and 3.669mm actual. 0.144" shorter than the 61.2mm allowance. Just a hair over 1/8". 9/64". You telling me that .144" longer is going to make a "go-to" motor?? Really??

Anyhow, the tolerance in size was in an effort to be "inclusive" of the motors that are ACTUALLY out there and being offered. They range in size from 54mm up to 61.138, the later being the TFL SSS factory motor that is supplied in the Pursuit, and the new Pro Marine Skater. Imagine that, a competitive RTR package that could literally go from Shelf to race course with NO changes.

OH, and for the record, I DID test some of the "high-end" motors under discussion. Neu and TP included. I did not have the $300.00 to buy an appropriate Lehner, so I did some talking, used some previous experience, and relied on some extrapolation with that one. You are NEVER going to convince me that, size-for-size, regardless of the "quality" of the motor, that a 2-Pole, all else being equal, is going to make a more suitable oval-racing motor than a 4 or 6-Pole. The facts just don't support that. If they would, we'd still be racing Fiego, Nemesis, Aveox, and Hacker motors... instead of Neus and TPs...

Anyway, Here is partially what was used in the size allowance suggestion:

 

[T.S.Davis]

Just to be clear to anyone reading this... I personally wouldn't go this extent; I was only trying to point out one of many possibilities of what racers are capable of. Mark my words: there will be someone that will try “something” to get the upper hand.

Heck, I don’t have time to work on, finish, or build the stuff I have on my bench or in my brain!!!!

You're actually a great example of my point. I've never seen you try to gain by skirting the rules Mike. Not high zoot bearing oil. Not unobtanium stuffing tube liner. None of that rot. Your boats rip. Just testing and knowledge. Recognizing what a boat is telling you. Responding to those signs. The new guy isn't going to know that. He isn't going to know that no matter what class he starts in. He has to be taught. So I would say that no class is an honest to goodness "beginner class" currently. Easy to get into maybe but beginner?.....not so much.

This size limit would only be just that......a limit. It's not intended to create parity. Just a limit. Just like a 21 boat has a limit. There's only so much you can get out of it. Some guys are better versed in getting a 21 setup perfect. Those guys are faster despite everyone running the same size limitation. It should be the same thing with FE. The perfect motor prop battery for a particular hull and a particular driving style could win........or......not win. haha The motor that works in my Pursuit runs fer crap in my Delta.

You could make a true beginner class. We tried it at the club level. We ran Sv27 with hand out props. Specified the batteries. Stock hardware. Stock flex shaft even. You have to get guys on board to get it started though. You can't just wave a flag and say "HALE NEW GUYS!" and they come running. The vets have to run it too if it's going to take off. The problem is that an established racer will know how to get a little more out of them even stock. Just by doing what they normally do. When the boat is acting weird he knows what to do. Pretty soon the class is new guys chasing a vet every heat. They get bored. The vets were already bored. New guy wants to know what those other classes are. Those look really fun. "Wait, I can put my gear in a Stealth hydro?" The class fizzles. We can barely field a heat these days.

The de-tuning thing is nutty. Noticeably faster? How many mph faster is that exactly? Subjective at best. De-tune? How much? In what way? Less prop, thicker grease, less battery, more battery, no work on the bottom, tape a brick to the top? Fast guys will find a way to be fast until the penalties become too steep. Then they'll just quit. Can anybody think of a real race boat team that this happened to? haha Plus, if a guy is running away from the field don't you think he would just let off on the throttle to keep it close if he knew there could be a penalty levied against him? Just win by a little..........bit.