FE P-Limited Rules NAMBA and IMPBA and best choices!

[T.S.Davis]

The whole IMPBA vs NAMBA thing annoys me. I'm a member of and race with both organizations. We're all model boaters that are focused on a small segment of the hobby.

This new idea is a little different from the old limited in that it's less complicated and more sturdy. Probably not the right word. Should hold up for a while. IMPBA may be more interested in it this time around. With the former NAMBA drama I can understand why IMPBA didn't just leap off the ledge with us. My recollection is that they couldn't get past the 60 amp speedo. That would have required a list. You can't tech the rating on a speedo. Today you can get a better speedo for 40% less dough. The speedo list would have been an anchor like the motor list is.

I intend to propose this to NAMBA D2 after I get some feedback form my gang of misfits. They're pretty bright. The opposition thus far has been almost non existent. The few detractors were concerned about turning it into an amp hog class. Amps = $$$ Same arguments we had when we went brushless, lithium polymer, allowed twins at 5k each, or allowed 10000mah total. Accept that lithium was supposed to have killed us all by now.

IMPBA events that offer limited usually say "per NAMBA" when they do. So.....why not just have the same rule?

It would be nice to not have to ask or state what the rules are when you're hosting or traveling.

 

[RonShaw]

Terry,

I agree. If we can come up with a set of rules acceptable with both organizations, it will be a win/win for everyone involved. We have a mixture of NAMBA and IMPBA races in our area so I am sure the boaters in the Southeast will support your recommendation as to, "IMPBA events that offer limited usually say "per NAMBA" when they do. So.....why not just have the same rule?". If you can work with us to post here what you guys are thinking, and all work together to hone the rules to fit both organizations, I think we can make it happen this time. It would be nice to make one simple change, "OPC" (NAMBA) to "Outboard Tunnel" IMPBA!!!...

 

[RaceMechaniX]

There are proposals in the works to address the motor, battery capacities and voltage limits. Stay tuned.

 

[RonShaw]

There are proposals in the works to address the motor, battery capacities and voltage limits. Stay tuned.

Great Tyler. Post details when you can.

 

[DPeterson]

I quit running electric 2 Months ago and will not go back as I am going full gas. Just a devils advocate here...

So IMPBA has to have P-limited rules written in the book in order for local clubs to entice kids and beginners to start racing boats?

Kids and beginners usually do not frequent a Nationals so not really necessary for that.

Even with a size limited rule, motors can be tweeked to fit this rule. Bearings can be replaced, motors can be hand wound with good quality wire, better varnish can be used, magnets can re-zapped, etc. etc. So still not a good class to be considered for records.

In D4 all the nitro gas guy's that tried P-Limited were turned off by the bad quality equipment, no mill and the little electric beginner boat thing. (not my quote) Curious as to how having the rules in the book will address this across the other districts.

Doug

 

[Grimracer]

Doug is right.. that is from the Nitro side.. no mill for those that feel the mill is a good part of the heat.. they miss it in FE.. new boaters don't know so they don't care... Only the nitro/gas guys care..

So you know Doug.. the quality of the motors was not a problem for most.. just a few who were not accepting the limits of the design. I guess if you are mentioning it this must have been a problem for all types.. Aqua, Proboat, TP.. Etc.. I did not see it at the races.. I did see a few at work back then.. (not as many as you might think tho).. maybe most got the motor is the fuse deal.. I don't know...

I am new to the small boat comment.... and truth is so what.. I like 21 boats best.. they are about the same size. It has never bothered me that my 21s are the smallest of the nitro group.. I suppose it might bother some..

I know a number of Nitro guys that gave FE a go and got out.. I can name most of them but wont.. I am one of them BTY.. I still have a VERY fast P Limited Rigger but she will forever be dry.. the kit was given to me by a special buddy and its worth more to me on the shelf...

Ron.. don't give up.. you will get it figured out.. a new approach can not hurt..

Grim

 

[Darin Jordan]

Even with a size limited rule, motors can be tweeked to fit this rule. Bearings can be replaced, motors can be hand wound with good quality wire, better varnish can be used, magnets can re-zapped, etc. etc. So still not a good class to be considered for records.

No other class is concerned with any of this. Not sure why it's a concern with this one. You can throw all the $$$$ you want at it, you'll only make SO much power from this physical size motor.

 

[Don Ferrette]

Just thinking out loud Ron but if you write your proposal as a "non records" class I'd think you'd see more support out of the BOD. You're making the argument for it as entry level to foster new boaters so no need for it to be a record class............. right??

 

[Darin Jordan]

Just thinking out loud Ron but if you write your proposal as a "non records" class I'd think you'd see more support out of the BOD. You're making the argument for it as entry level to foster new boaters so no need for it to be a record class............. right??

I'm very cool with the no records deal, though it seems rather arbitrary.... its simply anorher class, but honestly, this isn't, and really hasn't been, a "beginners class". Not any more than A-Stock or any other limited or restricted power class has been. It's "limited performance", which means experienced tuners will excell.
That said, it will be a "slower" class than regular P class power.

 

[Darin Jordan]

DISCLAIMER: NOTHING about what I'm about to post is official in ANY WAY! I put these together simply to use an an example to our local club of how the rule might look "officially"...

Here is an example of what Terry and My thoughts on P-LTD might look like, "officially", based on the present NAMBA rulebook. Pretty basic, minimally intrusive rule-change, that is crystal clear on what is allowed. A simple go/no-go gauge or dial calipers would be all that's needed for tech.

 

[longballlumber]

Just curious...

The NEU 1415/1Y is listed to be 36.5mm Diameter. If I chuck it up in a lathe and turn down the OD an additional .2mm (.006") will it be legal?

That assumes the +/- production tolerances don’t already have that much variance.

 

[DPeterson]

Sorry Grim. But when the AQ2030 quality level dropped and the price went from 60.00 to 80.00 it was a huge issue for guy's all over the nation. Water over the dam.

NAMBA just spent 6 years trying to create P-Limited as a beginner class. Now its not and never was? This was one my biggest contentions.

Length limits were put in place to calm down the power from the 2P mistake. Now your going to have a whole set of classes with motor dimension restrictions along with the length limits. Kind of like putting the 3rd or 4th layer of shingles on a house.

OK - I see "Entry Level" stated. New guy's show up with some of the current listed motors in their boats. Experienced guy's all running a top quality motor that fits the dimensions. You can prop and run a good quality motor in a heat race and reach temperatures up around 160 all day long. Done it for years with my Lehners. You reach 130 with one of the current motors and poof. Probably a good 5 mph difference if not more. There will be no parity what so ever with what is being proposed.

Think it through fellas.

 

[Darin Jordan]

Just curious...

The NEU 1415/1Y is listed to be 36.5mm Diameter. If I chuck it up in a lathe and turn down the OD an additional .2mm (.006") will it be legal?

That assumes the +/- production tolerances don’t already have that much variance.

No... because it's too long... 2.409" Max. Length... 61.2mm.

 

[Darin Jordan]

NAMBA just spent 6 years trying to create P-Limited as a beginner class. Now its not and never was?

Not sure where you gather this, but it's not fact... it's just one opinion... "Limited Power" class was the aim. If it were meant to be "beginner", it would have been restricted to just RTR hulls, etc., like was originally proposed. P-LTD on a "National" level WAS and IS a good place to get started, but it was never aimed strictly at "beginners". Not any more than LSH and LSO were way back when. A reduced cost "P" class with restricted performance. THAT's what P-LTD is...

 

[T.S.Davis]

2P mistake? IMPBA allows 10,000P. What's the difference how many times you parallel if you can have 200k mah? I'm not getting into this with Doug again.

The motor failures were a real issue. The fluctuation in the quality was a real issue. I still have a bunch of baked potato in a box. Those of us that would push right out to the ragged edge would have failures when quality slipped even a few %. It was the inconstancy that drove me to edge of sanity. Nation wide problem? Not really. For us it wasn't even club wide. We have guys that are still running the motors that their boats came with. The difference is that some edge pushing lunatics were more dedicated to the hobby than others. They found a way to keep racing. They didn't go with "I'll never this, that, the other".

The focus/original intent was a class structure that would be fast enough to get experienced guys to bother with but still a new guy could come out and race in without having to scratch build a boat. He's not going to win at his first outing. Neither is a new guy with a 21 boat. Sorry, he isn't. If a new guy wants to start in 21 he better be really sharp to begin with because he'll be hard pressed to buy one at the local hobby shop that will get him on the water and competing.

Here's a question. New guy sees some racing and decides to hit the local hobby store to buy a boat. He wants something he doesn't need to a degree in quantum physics to run. What's he getting? Is he getting a B mono? How about a sport 40? Oh, Thunderboat! Pull the cord and run 10 minutes! Sweet. I don't think so.

New guy is buying what he already knows. Battery powered. Not because it's cheaper but because he's more comfortable.

Is he going to kick ass? Nope. Not the point. He's out at the pond now learning, driving, tweaking, and meeting new people. "Hey, what motor is that?" Why is a class that new guy can get his feet wet with an evil thing? We're not deleting the open classes. Run those if "limited" is the devil.

 

[lohring]

NAMBA just spent 6 years trying to create P-Limited as a beginner class. Now its not and never was?

Not sure where you gather this, but it's not fact... it's just one opinion... "Limited Power" class was the aim. If it were meant to be "beginner", it would have been restricted to just RTR hulls, etc., like was originally proposed. P-LTD on a "National" level WAS and IS a good place to get started, but it was never aimed strictly at "beginners". Not any more than LSH and LSO were way back when. A reduced cost "P" class with restricted performance. THAT's what P-LTD is...

Amen brother Darren. As you, Brian, and others know, the P limited classes have been the best propeller development classes in NAMBA. Speeds with the same limited power and very similar hulls have increased drastically since the classes started. It's all props. This has filtered down to the other classes. A few weeks ago I, and everyone else, was beaten by almost a lap in the P limited hydro class. The difference was a propeller developed for SAW records. The same boat and driver won the FE Nationals with a fast time of 1:18.75. That's in 3.5 hydro territory. The same thing is happening with 3.5 tunnels. I bet a good P limited tunnel will run with the best 3.5 piped tunnels.

Lohring Miller

 

[longballlumber]

Just curious...

The NEU 1415/1Y is listed to be 36.5mm Diameter. If I chuck it up in a lathe and turn down the OD an additional .2mm (.006") will it be legal?

That assumes the +/- production tolerances don’t already have that much variance.

No... because it's too long... 2.409" Max. Length... 61.2mm.

Ha ha.... That was pretty dumb of me...

To my point.... How are you going to keep "modified" motors and/or "custom" motors? Give someone an inch.....

 

[T.S.Davis]

Just curious...

The NEU 1415/1Y is listed to be 36.5mm Diameter. If I chuck it up in a lathe and turn down the OD an additional .2mm (.006") will it be legal?

That assumes the +/- production tolerances don’t already have that much variance.

No... because it's too long... 2.409" Max. Length... 61.2mm.

Ha ha.... That was pretty dumb of me...

To my point.... How are you going to keep "modified" motors and/or "custom" motors? Give someone an inch.....

I don't think you have to. The size limit is the only limit. The only other thing you could do is a weight limit. That creates a brand new tech PIA. Yuck.

On creating parity......how do you get "parity" in any classes that we currently have? Even the gas stock classes only have limitations if I understand correctly. To limit power. Not to make everyone's boat the same speed.

The only way you can really get IROC style racing is to spec the boat, motor, propeller, battery, and any changes allowed. Basically everything right down to the CG would be specific. Almost like we did with the SV27 class. Guys got bored with it.

Imposing a limitation is not quite the same as creating parity in my opinion.

 

[Don Ferrette]

Just curious...

The NEU 1415/1Y is listed to be 36.5mm Diameter. If I chuck it up in a lathe and turn down the OD an additional .2mm (.006") will it be legal?

That assumes the +/- production tolerances don’t already have that much variance.

And here is a good example of how it can quickly it can go to shiznit. Fire up a lathe, cut a can down and now an "illegal" motor becomes "legal". Nothing against you Mike my friend, I'm actually glad you brought this point up..........

 

[Darin Jordan]

To my point.... How are you going to keep "modified" motors and/or "custom" motors? Give someone an inch.....

Honestly, Mike... I'm not sure we care. I'm simply not convinced that you can pack enough EXTRA power into a can that size to warrant 1) the COST of having a custom motor done to compete in a "toy boat race", and 2) to beat someone who actually knows where the important part of the boat is.

I'm simply of the opinion that you are ONLY going to pack SO much power and efficiency into any specific can size. It's why I don't care about KV, etc... All this stuff ends up being self-limiting, JUST like all the other power classes. Nobody is limiting ANYTHING in those classes, but you don't see people trying to run 3500KV motors in P-Monos, for example.

Chances are, if this were the rule, there WOULD be motors that might come available from Neu, TP, etc... that would "fit" into the class. Perfect. Options. Everyone has an equal opportunity to compete, have motor supply, etc. Am I worried about someone showing up with a Lehner 19-series? Nope... 2-Pole, in that restricted can size... Big deal. I'm certain I can get a TP or even a Leopard that can compete, for 1/3rd the cost. OR... I can go buy the same Lehner.

Will it start an "arms race"?? Maybe, for a bit, until everyone figures out what they want/have/need. BUT, it's that way now, with many fewer options available, and often, serious supply limitations. Even complete motor lines disappearing.

I'm simply of the opinion, based partially on my experience testing all the P-LTD motors and a whole pile of possible "equivalents", that physically restricting the size of the motor will ultimately cap how much power (watts) you'll be able to generate with any combination of copper, iron, and magnets. Every change internally will have an offsetting compromise (more RPM=less torque, More Iron= less copper, etc.). It can only go SO far.

It's "Limited" in every sense of the word. It's not "spec". It's not "one motor". And it's not necessarily "low buck". BUT, look at what's been going on in FE boating lately. Some of the FASTEST TIMES in the HISTORY of FE boating have been getting set with $85.00 or $105.00 motors. Are you really telling me that spending $350.00 is going to "blow out" those performances? I just don't see it.

I'm open to opposition, certainly. If I'm missing something, let me know. But thus far, depending on what mind-set you take of the class in general, what Terry and I and a few others have concocted here just makes a lot of sense moving forward. P-LTD has been what it has been. For NAMBA, it's opened the door for a WHOLE SLEW of new and old racers to get involved, or more deeply involved. I'd like to preserve that, but eliminate all the questions, supply issues, tech issues, and revisiting of the rules every season. The proposed "replacement" rule would take care of all of that, and you'd literally never have to concern yourself with it again.