AUSTRALIAN Electric Events

[David Kingston]

Here we go guys,

Feel free to give advice on what we need to do to get our own event/s up and running.

We (meaning electric racers) are a national class, like nitro there are rules and requirements, perhaps Andrew G you could fill us in on them.

Tim D, fire away im listening. Would be keen to know what your ideas are to make this work.

David K

 

[Andrewg]

well the rules are basically

7 cell 12 cell 18 cell 32 cells - I would condense these and run 12 20 32 cells

Nominate hull classes - a few rather than more based on what you know there is a most of out there

Encourage people to run in fast classes. Racers are racers - they are going to pay for fast setups - they wont buy slow stuff.

After reviewing the times for 700's - about the same as for same distance in NAMBA ie 2 min plus vs 1.5min for 3.5 mono we need faster setups. At the very least run the 700's on 16-18 cells (smaller cells) and smaller props if you are concerned about heating.

As there are fewer boats you need focus - the logical place is 12 cell - altho 18 cell is generally only a six pack more in terms of cost and up at 3.5 speeds

Use existing ovals where possible and run off the back of existing i/c based clubs. As in the US I thinkyou will find CD's and members of nitro clubs who are willign to assist. Its there expertise in organisation, rule admin you want, they want to enjoy claling a race.

 

[Tim_Duggan]

You asked for my $0.02 - here it is. Feel free to shoot me down if you think it's warranted.

My suggestion to get something happening would be to focus your efforts on 1 class initially. Think of it as getting a foot in the door so to speak. I'd suggest avoiding"all in" merged classes as there is too much variation in classes. If the current rules don't provide something you specifically want for this class - submit it for a vote. No point complaining about it if your not prepared to try and change it.

At the moment there is only a handfull of you that are seriously committed to getting a run at AMPBA events. The AMPBA requirement is 5 boats minimum per class - so you would want to be able to get that as a minimum.

You guys should probably come up with some agreement as to which class it is based on what equipment you already have - rather than re-inventing the wheel. Fast or slow is less important than reliable and consistent. You must be able to race to the course that is set for 5 laps.

Unfortunately, the opportunity that electrics had to leave a good impression with the racing AMPBA community (at the HV champs - undoubtedly the biggest event in recent history) was completely squandered by radio issues, bad driving, unreliability, competitors not being ready when the heat was called, and so on. Some of the people who were paying close attention to the electric heats were on the AMPBA committee, and I know one of them was particularly un-impressed.

Another thing worth doing is getting actively involved at club level. Make your presense known! Help out with running the races etc. It will help to raise your profile amongst the racers.

In summary, Concentrate on 1 class for now and get good numbers of willing paticipants for said class, make them reliable and consistent, and learn to race on an AMPBA course used for gas / nitro at club days.

Then - make a proposition to a club hosting an event to hold that class. Put on a good show, and grow from there. A repeat performance of the HV champs effort will not do your cause much good at all!

Tim.

 

[Scott_T]

Tim,

Thanks for the analysis. I run electrics with David Kingston most weekends in Brisbane. I'm not an AMPBA member, but I'm planning on changing that quite soon.

I agree with the idea of focussing on 1 class (I think we would be able to get 2 decent classes together with little effort). The guys went to HV with great intentions and enthusiasm, but I think they were a little under-done. I don't think they will mind me saying that.

Personally I think we should focus on 12 cell classes as there is so much available for that class (hulls, motors, hardware), at a reasonable price. Speeds will not be up to 3.5cc pace, I'm not going to kid myself on that one, but I think seeing 5 competitve boats consistently finish races would generate some interest. It can be done, my 12 cell mono will run 40 mph (on a tight course) day in day out, without pushing gear, and handles like a dream. Hydros will be quicker.

The course is not completely suited to electrics, but that is something we have to live with, until the day we run an all-electric meeting (if that is even a goal). The 700 boats are always going to appear slow on a big course, but they are a worthwhile club class and should be included in any rule re-write.

The rules need a serious re-write. Andrew G and I have been bouncing drafts off each other for a while now, and I'm certainly willing to put the effort in to make that happen.

Running with nitro at a club level is the best thing we can do. A Brisbane nitro club has invited us to bring our boats out for a run. I will also be checking out the Gold Coast club at their next meeting (I think it's this Sunday). Even if they're not interested in including us, I would like to see how the racing is run etc. I haven't been to a nitro meeting in about 15 years. If there's any other clubs in SE Qld worth checking out, please let me know as I'm not sure of any.

Cheers,

Scott Tapsall.

 

[Grub]

My $0.02

Its not so much what you run, it is how you run it.

When the Gas guys first started racing we just threw them into one class and they raced according to the racing rules. They then made rules for different classes.

Now if the rules had been read before the HV Champs everyone would have known what they had to do. When they raced, it wasn't really a race. We had boats going left right and centre and even stopping on the course waiting for the start.

I know that some of the guys were having radio issues but that is not anyone else's fault. Most of the I.C and gas guys had no problems except for a few.

Fot the past couple of years we have been having trouble with running 1/8th scales because of some poor performances over the years. It is slowly getting the respect back, but it will take a bit more time.

The same goes for the electrics, if you put on a good show then people will want to join in and spend money buying these boats, but put on some bad performances and it will turn people away.

 

[jasper]

My $0.02 worth,

I totally aggree with Tim & Grub.

However I'd like to add that from the view of running an event (ie Battle of Borders and The Natioanals) to get through all five rounds in two days is simply an impossible task. The numbers that are starting to compete in 27 classes as well as presantation just cannot be done in two days anymore. (this is what I belive that we have all been working towards). Thus meaning that 3 days racing is needed for a succesfull event.

If another breed of classes where to be squeezed into these events what happens????? I personally don't want to hear any talk of dropping a round to accomadate this.

Anyone who has arginised a race meeting at a proffessional level knows how much hard work it is. Arranging sponsership, food, drinks, shirts , hats , raffle, etc.............

To have a group turn up to race at a ampba event not knowing the rules is totally unacceptable in my view.

I started The Yarrawonga Mulwala R/C Model Boat Club Inc. 4 years ago and prior to doing anything I went to 2 race meetings to see how it was done. I then obtained the AMPBA rule book and read it. After reading the rules and attending a couple of racemeetings thought it could be done in Yarrawonga as there was nothing here prior.

I know I'm rabbling on a bit but the point is you guys need to get you s&*t together before pushing into a AMPBA event / orginsation. If you have to race an electric boat then join up and be counted. I don't have a problem with a couple of electric classes to start off with. Who knows could be fun for the kids to get started.

How many Electric boats are we talking???????

 

[Tim_Duggan]

I guess the key issue is you have to start somewhere, and most of us believe a Nationals or other large event is not the place to start. AMPBA clubs would be foolish to ignore electrics completely.

There is talk amongst MBCofNSW members about having a LSH class, 12 cells and a 700 motor. 2 of our club committee are actively running them and their racing skills are improving every time they race. We discussed the concept of 12 cell OPC with 700's but the general concensus was that the hydro's were a better option to begin with. Maybe this could be used as a test case - if it works for us (and it looks promising) then maybe other AMPBA clubs could do the same, and eventually it will appear on entry forms for larger events - initially as a demonstration class because it's not a recognised AMPBA class.

As Jason said - there are concerns about the number of classes now - adding more could be an issue but if we are only talking about 1 class it will be less of a big deal than say 6 classes! I do find it funny that Jason raised it though - Yarrawonga was the club pushing for the latest new class :lol: :lol: :lol: There is a place for it though - no question.

Another thing we could look at is racing around the turn bouy rather than the full course to reduce heat times.

 

[Scott_T]

It's nice to hear that the MBCofNSW members are at least talking about it. Electrics aren't trying to push in, they're already in the rule book (yes, I've read it), they've just been dormant. But I agree in that electric guys should run with nitro clubs to get racing experience - both with regards to the rules and driving.

I believe this discussion shouldn't be to get electrics entered into the next big event, or the one after, but to get people talking about running similar boats at club level. Then when the time is right for a big meeting, the boats will be sorted and racing will be good.

Tim, LSH is a nice place to start, I hope it attracts some runners. The brushless stuff is getting cheaper all the time too, so the step to 12 cell brushless isn't very painful. Our club (Triple S Model Boat group) has probably 13 700 powered monos, and 8 or so LSH boats at present. Brushless gets a bit fast for our lake, so hasn't grown as it might elsewhere.

I'm interested in opinions on the course as well, something smaller may be better (ie only using part of the nitro course), but only if it safely fits within the nitro course.

 

[David Kingston]

Yes i think that we should concentrate on 2 classes at first.

LSH - 12cells 700 motor

mono - 12 cells 700 motor

brushless boats can enter but with handicap.

If there is a goot turn out then open class - any boat motor cell count.

As for hunter valley - disorganised electric.

I myself have only ever seen one club event of racing.

Id never raced boats for some title other than club bragging rights

The radio issues did not help us.

If we could hear the call up over the speakers for races than we would not be late for heats.

THe down fall of gas and nitro.

(im a petro head - just has to be V8 350 and up - a real boat)

I felt very bad turning up to a head a bit late and i spoke to Tony Jones and appoligized for that. In the end, remember that there has not been electrics at any event for 9 years so no one knew what was going to happen. EG, mill times etc.

I also was pissed that my tunnel ESC blew up as my boat was under water to long and got water damaged. It would had turned some heads. The 700 hydros and monos are running speeds of 50 - 55kph for mono and hydro 55kph. Thats not as fast as the 3.5s no, but with an open class that would allow much faster speeds. Look at that 1/8th. If it was not for radio problems it would have turned more heads over the weekend.

I would like to start up an event here in QLD for all electrics, AMPBA sanctioned course for us also.

I can get the backing from my club and i also run my own sporting club and have for the past 4 years and it is growing so i know how to get the wheel moving and pull the right strings. It would be open to all. I guess what i want to know is who in AMPBA do i contact about organising something like this.

Thanks for your 2cents - keep thoughts and ideas coming.

David B)

 

[Brett Buckmaster]

Gents,

Don't you think that this post should have been put on the A.M.P.B.A website forum where it could have been discussed further with most of the AMPBA members to view.I only use IW website for my own nitro needs(scaleboat's), but for our own club I use the australian site as these are the people that you wan't to help your club needs grow!!

Bucky

 

[Tim_Duggan]

I thought of that too Bucky - but then I went there and had a look at the thread Gary Tyrell started about getting O/B tunnels happening in Oz. Then I compared it to the thread on IW - NO COMPARISON. Unfortunately the AMPBA site either is unknown or people choose not to use it for whatever reason.....

Besides - the same Aussie people use both boards. Lets see if this one sparks any interest....AMPBA topic needing discussion

David,

Only an AMPBA affiliated club can hold an AMPBA sanctioned event. The secretary of the club has to make a submission in writing to the AMPBA secretary. In the past it had to be submitted more than 3 months in advance, along with the fee. Things may have changed in recent times - check with your club.

There is a lot more to organising an event than you may realise. It's a big job.

Tim

 

[LOU]

Hey Guys, Good luck starting you mixed racing. We succesfully race a couple classes this year with the local nitro/gas club.

If you want to impress nitro members with speed and reliability 18 cell brushless monos or offshore setups get good feedback. A 700 mono on 12 cells is not gonna be to impresive on a large course. We also ran our LSH setups. They were a fun race for 6 laps but wern't the fastest, although they were fast enough and reliable enough that I think we will have some Nitro boaters trying the class next season.

 

[Scott_T]

I'm with you LOU, if electrics run at mixed events, on a nitro course, LSH would be the slowest class even thought about. no offense to 700 mono owners - I'm one of them!!

Personally I think 12 cell open mono and sport hydro would be interesting.

 

[Dan Chase]

Sorry, it's really none of my business, but if you are only going to get one electric class to run, make it a good one. Below is a link to an 8 cell sport hydro race our club ran on a regulation size 1/6 mile NAMBA nitro course. 12 cell brushless might be a better choice, but as you can see, brushless can run impressive speeds on the longer nitro courses. I would leave the 700 motor boats to the club races. Thanks to Tom Keliher for the video

http://www.fototime.com/73DEF288B32983D/orig.wmv

BTW: What size is a nitro course in Australia?

 

[Scott_T]

Dan,

Comment by all means, you've got a lot of valuable electric experience.

That's why I would push 12 cell sport hydro if we join the nitro guys. Heaps of good looking boats available, and good speeds.

I think the AMPBA nitro course is 300m per lap (bit under 1/5 mile), 5 lap races.

 

[David Kingston]

Dan,

Thanks for the info. I thinking of cost mostly for new racers to electrics. 700 boats can then be turned into brushless later on. Only cost is the major thing. Most club members here have setups of $300 Australian. That is a cheep boat and some are quite fast. It makes for very close racing also with 700's.

I myself have BL boats and would like to see other boaters go that way and perhaps have events like the US does. That will take some time.

Tim,

Yes it takes lots of work time effort and money.

My idea. Stuff AMPBA sanctioned for the moment.

Invite to race in Brisbane Electric Champs (for example purpose only)

I can get prizes for concors boats, $10 entry covers trophies for winers of classes.

Just to get the ball rolling - photos, race reports, boat information, also lap times on electirc oval. I think that this alone would be enough to put something together have it posted on the web and gain the interest of Australian boaters.

Just my boat club extending a invite to Aus boaters wanting to race in an event.

The most annoying thing - not having a go at AMPBA here either - but sanctioned and not sanctioned event. For the love of the sport and hobby, we need the website to put a few words and pictures against events. I have not seen much on there for past events for some time now. To get interest with all forms of model boating there needs to be information!!!

David

 

[Kris Flynn]

How about T hydro? That would be a good beginner class

Seriously though, Jason we are only talking about 2 - 3 heats MAX per round of electric boats right now. Having said that, everone would still need to turn up (ON time).

I think 12 cell Sport hydros are heat racing around 50MPH in the US right? They look the part and go well (as quick as alot of the 21 outboards) plenty of controllers and batteries are not that much (compared with 18 cell setups). But hey i dont care just procrastinating (dont know what it means but it sounds good ) I will just be happy as long as 21 outboards and FE get up (and keep) going strong!!

Kris

 

[Andrewg]

Well I think beofre I say anything I would liek to congratulate the elctric guys oin doing a great job. You had problems but that you started this thread shows your accountability and commitment to the sport.

IMO that weekend was really something because in our little part of the world we made a little bit of history. At extremely short notice you got together and turned up in what was clearly a sceptical environment. Whats more you raced with $65 motors - as far as mph/$ spent you were way in front.

Its a pity there wasnt more time to test and we dont have 5-10 years of working with one another the way the nitro guys do. I think you did brilliantly. We learnt some lessons but hey the nitro guys were all newbies once too.

Two things 1. someone asked why electrics stopped in the middle of the course - because they can!!! and 2. before the nitro racers slag electric reliability lets pause to remember Electrics were forced into their own events because the nitro guys said electrics were too reliable to run with!

Re resistance to electrics? Electrics are in the rule book. A lot of the comments I see mask the assumption that electrics are somehow not legit. Well as AMPBA members how are we not entitled to be accomodated? There is always the option of a breakaway organisation. Or affiliation with another umbrella organisation.

There is a prominent electric boater in the USA who has as his slogan -" the future of nitro is electric and the future of electric is nitro racers".

If nitro racers are going to be the future of electrics I would NOT run 700 mono or LSH as a 12 cell class. I did some calcs today - the LSH's were running at 41 amps - thats up there for those motors - they are after all only $65! Too many more amps will see them starting have relaibility issues. Instead increase the violtage an reduce prop size and go faster. Volts are cool power. (more later).

The electrics (700's) times were one third to 2/3's longer than 3.5 monos. Everyone is there for the racing not the fuel efficiency or peace and quiet. We have to get faster.

I do not support the notion of a smaller course for electrics. Some people forget electrics are the fastest marine rc on the planet and faster still if we take the fastest respective one way passes of 125(nitro) and 133 mph (electric)

If electrics are to succeed they have to offer a huge value advantage or at least equal performance. I believe we can do both.

If electrics are going to succeed IMO the options are:

* a cheapy - like a 700 rigger class - its cheap faster than lsh; make it 16-18 cells, prop down to contain the amps and you will run under 2 mins on a $65 motor. (risk is fools trying to portray electrics as a kids class)

* something as fast as the 3.5 nitros. A 12 cell mono goes very close - the fastest race time by a A mono was an average of 60k's or 37+ mph. Most 12 cell brushless monos can run close - at least for two laps - wear the pain now in 2 years we will be faster. Technology better setups and practice will more than make up for any current deficits (no pun intended). If you ahve ideas about setups (I am testing lipos soon to see how the lighter weight effects speed - (it might be cheaper than buying a new brushless)

* other classes we know are toe to toe are 1/8th, I think in a month you could include big monos. I have to test a rigger over the next couple of weeks 12 or 18 cell is going to run close to the 3.5's (did you hear last weekend in USA Dick ran 94mph with an 12 cell rigger!!! - we just need capacity to make that sustainable)

* Or 12 or 18 cell tunnel or 18-20 cell sport 20 size hydro

****** Or decide for your local oval - you may find in Qld o/b tunnels or mono are the fast class but in Sydney its Cats and sport hydros. Be flexible. For my money the 18 cell class is going to be the easiest to run at speeds simialr to nitro and within 24 months faster. than 3.5/7.5

Bottom line is dont let people wjho should know better tell you electircs are slow (not until they show us what a $65 nitro motor can do) or that they are unreliable (I would agree if we were there for the 3rd year in a row but not the first comeptition in 15 years).

Electrics are the fastest rc marine on the planet. If we want to inspire people and show what electrics can do we have to aspire to it.

 

[Kris Flynn]

But Andrew,

Shouldn't you also include the ESC and batteries into that equation of a $65 FE motor being compared to a nitro motor??

OK, I (And i think someone elese will be also) have been approached by a member of the AMPBA to become part of the board to relate with the electric racers. This is the beginning of an infrastructure to help us all sort out the current issues we are facing.

A couple of things come to mind after speaking to organisers of Nitro events and just my general thoughts: These are generally refering to 12 cells and up...

1. Lets use the standard nitro course. But for now run 3-4 laps. We want to cause MINIMAL disruption to the nitro racers as possible, they (we) have a hard enough time dodging the 11 bouys that are already out there ;-)

Then if smaller cell count classes become more popular later on then move the start bouy (or put a seperate one) to the middle of the course.

This will allow our boats to run faster and hence (IMO) more apealing. But dont forget speed isnt everything, close racing is! I remember Grimracer talking about how he wouldnt mind if he has to strap a brick to his boat and race it, as long as everyone was even!

2. Decide which 2 (maybe 3) classes we want to run at a national level at these race meets and push them.

My thoughts are: 12 cell LSH (these boats look great and go well!) and 12 cell LS Mono (maybe even 'P' (which is 9-12 cells) depeding on what others feel) and possibly an Open class (as an anything goes)

3. We need to update the rules urgently!

LMK what you guys feel about these points...

Kris

 

[David Kingston]

Andrew,

some good points.

however i think that it needs to be simple. Break it into hull classes

Hydro

Mono

Tunnel

Within the classes

Hydro - takes riggers also

Mono

Tunnel - run cats also.

This way we can fill the classes with easy 5 boats.

Forget the cell count and motor choice at the moment.

Most people want to run 700 mono and hydro here in brisbane. It is a great class with speeds of 34 - 40mph. Hay i have to honk my own horn here. My Om26 is faster in oval trim than the SAW record for LSO (i think that is limited scale mono) I run 34mph in oval - ROCK ON.

GO that neoX -$65 motors rule.

The next step up is BL and the boats are running clear 65kph and that is 12 cells.

We need to get a good turn out and be involved in the Nationals for 06. Turn some heads there. With no radio problems things should be easier. Although there is nothing like staying up till 1am friday night before racers, sorting out radio problems, to find that at that lake the radio bug was still there. Thankfully it was just magic that it was not a problem after the first race.

Sum up

run 3 classes of boats - get everyone in there, work it out from lap times and motor cell setup and have a winner that way. Remember that it is not always the quickest boat that wins on the day. (eg my mono)

Why do electrics stop - cause they can

lets go backwards next time - that will get a laugh.

David