Thoughts needed on start rules

[Grub]

I have been the contest director at the Australian Nationals for the past ..... years and this christmas I have been asked to do it again. But as usual I can't keep everyone happy (sorry Craig) but always try to. One rule that has been a bit hazy is the end of pit time and beginning of mill time. The AMPBA rule states:

8.3.1.3 A boat, which has started and ready to be launched, shall be allowed to launch at the contest directors discretion.

I have always seen this rule to mean that the driver must be on the stairs of the drivers stand at least with the boat at the waters edge. Just wondering what everyones thoughts are on this and maybe I won't have any arguments this year (Yeah right!).

Grub

Haven't competed at the Nationals in 15 years, I'm ready for that rookie trophy.

 

[TimD]

Re:Toughts needed on start rules

Hey Grub,

I think the best way to do it is that if the boat has the engine running at the end of pit time it can launch - if not running then sorry buddy, but you just earned a DNS.

The downside to this is the CD needs a spotter to watch the boats on the water to make any calls needed - this happened to me at the Hydro shootout this year - when CD'ing by myself I was watching to make sure someone on the starting bench was running and didn't hear a dead boat call and someone else hit the dead boat :'( Not entirely my fault but with X hydro and twins it can be a little hard to hear anything!!

Tim.

 

[[email protected]]

Re:Toughts needed on start rules

I think your right on the money. I also think as long as the boats been started and is in the process of being lifted off the table for launch is the minimal for the heat.

 

[Ian Inverarity]

Re:Toughts needed on start rules

Grub,

I have seen this interpreted in different ways by various CD's and generally I dont mind what the interpretation is, as long as it has been stated and everyone understands.

The most common interpretation I have come across is if the boat has been started and cowling on before the end of pit time then it will be allowed to start. While this means boats being lauched 10 seconds prior to the start, there are some desirable saftey aspects to this. That is, having started the boat, the driver and pitman dont need to RUN down to get on the stand and launch the boat. I like this and think it is safer than having the pitman running down to the wet launch ramp with a running boat with that nasty shapr prop at the back doing 10000 rpm while trying to beat the clock.

The boat getting on the course very late is usually not a problem as they are generally well out of sync with the other boats and miss the start.

Nitrocrazed racing: My 2 cents....

 

[TimD]

Re:Toughts needed on start rules

The boat getting on the course very late is usually not a problem as they are generally well out of sync with the other boats and miss the start.

Until they hit a dead boat on their "out lap" because there was no pit man to tell the driver where it was.........

 

[Eric Bourlet]

Re:Toughts needed on start rules

What we do in NAMBA District 8 when we host the Nationals and at all our district races is done in the interest of safety. To keep people from running to launch a boat before the 30 seconds we require the boat be started and off the stand ready to run (if it is a class that requires a cowel it would have to be on at this point too) before the 30 second mark. As long as this requirement is met the boat is allowed to launch. I have seen to many people hurt at other places around the country running to beat the clock. This ruel has served us well.

 

[Ian Inverarity]

Re:Toughts needed on start rules

Tim,

That is a risk at every launch because the pitman is down launching the boat! With quicker boats and driver stands a little way away from the launch area it is quite easy to get a full lap in before the pitman gets there. I feel that the driver should have a quick look at the course before they signal the okay to launch to their pitman. This is what I do at least.

The only time I have been caught out was this year at Finley. In one race with the 90 hydro the course was clear when the boat went in, but a boat was called dead by bouy 4 or 5, my pitman had not yet arrived so i took my eyes off my boat to check the course ahead, and crashed into bouy 5 instead.

This is not a risk specific to launching late. Besides I regard personal saftey and more important than the saftey of the boats, and as one who has spent time in hospital from prop cuts..... :

Nitrocrazed racing: That makes 4c

 

[TimD]

Re:Toughts needed on start rules

Ian,

fairy nuff!

Tim

 

[Wild Bill]

Re:Toughts needed on start rules

As I have been around since Adam had pups, I still remember that the original intent of the rule was to allow a boat that had started and was at the waters edge, in the co-drivers hands, waiting for the driver to take up his position on the drivers stand, our waiting for clear water, to launch within seconds of the completion of pit time. It was never intended to allow competitors to continue trying to start boats and launch in front of boats coming up for a start, as I have seen and encountered as a competitor.

There is nothing more un-nerving than heading for the start of an X Hydro race, flat out, in lane 8 and some 'idiot' launches right in front of your boat travelling at 160KPH. It gets your attention real quick and raises your heart rate instantly.

Lets face it, if you can't get the bloody thing going in 2 minutes, you should give it up for that race. You get another chance in the next heat. We have all experienced it. I think it is very unsporting and unfair to the competitors who are on the water for someone to launch in front of them coming up for a race start.

For my money, your boat must be at the waters edge ready to launch at the expiration of Pit time, to be given the benefit of launching within the first few seconds in Mill Time, as the rule states.

Here endeth the lesson. Please pass the plate around.

 

[Grub]

Re:Toughts needed on start rules

But if it is a bit of a hike up to the drivers stand like last christmas and the driver has just started the boat, I feel that he should not be able to throw it in because by the time it gets thrown in there is only 10 or 15 seconds left for the start.

If the driver is already on the stand its no problem but when he is down in the hot pits and has to run up to the drivers stand it can be a problem.

Maybe we need a rule to state that the drivers has to be on the stand or at least the steps at the end of pit time. Its just like getting a dead boat out of the launch area where you can't get your feet wet maybe the rule should be that the driver and the boat must be ready to launch at the end of pit time cause its no use having a boat on the bank running and no driver at that call.

Grub

 

[TimD]

Re:Toughts needed on start rules

8.3.1.3 A boat, which has started and ready to be launched, shall be allowed to launch at the contest directors discretion.

Grub

In light of the responses to this post, should we look at writing a more descriptive rule and submitting it for a vote? Something like;

A boat, which has started and ready to be launched, shall only be allowed to launch if (a)the engine is running, with any cowling fitted, and is off the pit table.

and ( B) The driver is on the driver's stand.

What do you guys think? Grub - you started the thread and are prolly the most experienced CD these days - whatever you think works should be submitted!

 

[TomMoorehouse]

Re:Toughts needed on start rules

I think Eric B's about right if you absolutely had to have a rule about the rule..... so to speak

However i believe trying to read more in to the rule than is actually there is a problem..... you need to think of the intent of the rule, and that is safety! There are 1000's of things that could possibly happen in that short time span...... you never know......

what i get out of "at the contest directors descretion" is if the CD thinks it is safe then you may give the ok to launch. If you have any doubts, then it's a no launch.

 

[Wild Bill]

Re:Toughts needed on start rules

On reflection I agree that we should take away the responsibility of the CD to have to make a decision.

Change the rule to read 'No boats will be allowed to launch following the expiration of Pit Time'. The rule is then the same for all. Then there is no pressure on the CD to allow anything.

Bill.

 

[Ian Inverarity]

Re:Toughts needed on start rules

I think one of Bill's points were that the original intent of the rule was to allow boats that were genuinely about to be lauched to actually launch. Which is fair enough.

I also agree that perhaps the drivers should give up if they didnt get their boats going in time and in the water, and in recent times to stop my pitman having to rush around I have done this.

But I think the saftey of the participants has to be put above the safety of the boats.

Maybe we need a Pit Boss official in the AMPBA racing like there is in some of the US racing. This person can then signal the pitman when they can launch. If the boat is late getting to the launch area, but was started prior to the end of pit time, the Pit Boss could make the call as to when it launches. If there are boats coming thru at the time, then the Pit Boss could require that boat to wait until those boats have passed even if that means launching AFTER race start. As such the competitor is dead last, but at least they got on the water.

Nitrocrazed racing: 6 cents....

 

[Grub]

Re:Toughts needed on start rules

I think this could probably be it, I can't remember the last time I waited till the death to start a boat cause I usually want to get out as early as possible and make sure the boat is running alright, adjust the mixture and get ready for the start.

If a boat is thrown in after the end of pit time the slower boats only have to do one lap, the quicker boats two laps and they get the start which is a bit unfair to the guys who were running around for two minutes.

Model Boating isn't just about who can go the quickest, its about getting your boat running reliably, including starting when you want it to, and finishing the races, hopefully in first place and coming back to the bank.

Grub

Who's ordered the beer for the nationals?

 

[TimD]

Re:Toughts needed on start rules

Model Boating isn't just about who can go the quickest, its about getting your boat running reliably, including starting when you want it to, and finishing the races, hopefully in first place and coming back to the bank.

Grub

Who's ordered the beer for the nationals?

Well put Grub! Too many DNF's these days and not enough actual racing happening.

Tim

Where is everyone staying for the Nationals?? I hope the Beer isn't West End :-X

 

[paul heuston]

here goes my 2 cents worth.

the rule states that :

8.3.1.3 A boat, which has started and ready to be launched, shall be allowed to launch at the contest directors discretion.

now to me the rule is simple

if your boat is running and ready to go by the time the clock hits the "end of pit time" than you can go if the cd says "yes".

now if the cd for the event wishes to make his or her own interpritations they should do so at the begining of the event.

and if any one wihses to object say

"get your arse up here and do the job !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

paul

destroyer racing

no time for broken boats lets race fast but safe...

 

[_laxmasta2039]

guys,

as a soccer ref, i hafta deal with alot of those "discretion" rules....

it sounds like more of a circumstantial thing to me,

you might just wanna take a minute to explain that to racers at the pre-race meeting and let them know you'll do the best you can and go from there.

my 2 cents!

joe

 

[Grub]

In previous years I probably haven't performed the best drivers meetings cause everyone is itching to go racing and too busy talking or getting boats ready.

I think maybe if we run through exactly what the CD will be looking for during the start time, mill time and race time then everyone should know. Everyone will just have to remember the term "compulsory drivers meeting" and have the drivers meeting away from the pit area so no one has the urge to go back to their boats.

But I think you guys are right in saying, "If you don't like the decision, get up and be the contest director yourself".

This year will be the 5th or 6th time I have been CD for the Australian Nationals at Christmas time and I do it cause I love model boats and want to see the event go smoothly and as quick as possible (this is cause we all want to go back and drink Wide Boy's beer or Winks' rum). The only down side is I can't race a boat at the nationals and I've never competed at the nationals in the 16 or 17 years I've been racing. But if it means that the hobby goes forward and everyone is happy or happier, I'll do it.

Thanks to the Adelaide club for allowing me to do it again this year and hopefully it will be better again.

Grub

Adelaide means Coopers Pale Ale........mmmmmmm

 

[Wild Bill]

Now hold on Grub, this year may have to be a little different. Now that you have that beaut new scale, we may have to find a 'guest CD' to run the gentlemans event, SCALE.

Seeing that I will not be back with my new scale until mid November and I won't have it ready by Christmas, I would like to offer my services as that 'Guest CD' so you will be able to enjoy your class.

Re the beer. We will have to drink the local stuff as I am flying down so can't bring my Philippine or Indonesian beer. Is that West End or Cooper stuff any good. Maybe we could use that new trailer that your dad got to bring some down so we don't get sick drinking the local stuff.

Let me know if you would like me to do the Scale events.

Wild 'Wide Boy' Bill.