Questions about NAMBA "Stock" Outboard rulings.

[David Santistevan]

We just had our annual district meeting yesterday and one of the subjects that came up with the NAMBA ruling on Stock Outboards banning or prohibiting the use of a control arm attached to the needle valve as a third channel mixture adjustment. So I wanted to throw this out since the "Stock engine" discussion always gets lively. Okay, here is the scenario: This is an OS V2 engine, for the third channel mixing adjustment. I am using the most simple mechanism you can possibly use, It is just a control arm made by OS that has a hole in the center big enough to slide over the needle valve and lock down with a set screw to hold it tight. My cable is then secured using the same cable mount used for the throttle cable on the other side. I was told at the district meeting that this would NOT fly at the nationals and would be called as a modififed engine. Here is my argument why it isn't and I would love to hear from the rest of yor tunnel guys on this. From the NAMBA rule books this is what I think applies:

Section 19 Outboard Paragraph C Engine Specification

Subsection 2(a)

Stock class engine rules are designed to forbid the racing of special, experimental, or custom built engines regardless of whether or not they qualify under the other sections of these rules.

This is the definition of the "spirit" of the rules, and under this definitions this would not qualify as an "custom built" or "experimental" engine.

Subsection 2(e)

For the stock classes, the engine’s parts must remain as originally manufactured for that brand, size, and style engine. No modifications are permitted. Interchanging of parts from one series or edition to another is legal as long as the parts used were made by the manufacturer of the engine and were used on their outboard engines.

No stock part was replaced or modified including screws or other carb parts.

Subsection 2(g)

Motor changes and/or modifications may be made to enhance safety and reliability and, except as otherwise provided for herein, they will not be made to enhance performance. The following changes and/or modifications are permissible:

2(g)(ii) After market or homemade carburetor linkages (arms).

These are clearly carburetor linkages (arms) and are listed as permissible.

2(g)(xv) The use of radio controlled remote needle valves is permissible in addition to the stock needle valve.

3rd channel needle valves are specifically allowed, btw it does not say that the 3rd channel needle valve has to be off the motor.

The IMPBA rules are almost identical except they take it one step further and state that if you use a 3rd channel needle, the original needle must remain in place. Once again this meets even that definition.

This is a picture of my OB rigger with the same exact setup for those of you who can't visualize what I am talking about:



Can someone clarify to me why this would constitute a modified engine and thus be disqualified?

Dave

 

[Mike Culhane]

Looks good to me. I don't see a problem with it.

 

[Bill Britton]

The easy way to include third channel mixture control and still stay legal is to install third channel as in a MOD boat and just open the needle valve on the carb to about 4 turns open as allowed in 2(g)(xv). Your not altering the motor/carb in any way and you still get third channel flexability.

Doing it this way will keep you from getting into all of the political BS minutia that you seemed to have inadvertently stepped in. I have learned the hard way that it is best just to keep quiet and smile (You can still say that this is all BS under your breath). But there is always more than one way to skin a cat. B)

Improvise, adapt and overcome.

 

[David Santistevan]

Bill,

There really isn't and issue for me as I am pretty good at needling my engines ( I don't subscribe to the lean your engine and the begining of the race and open them up at the end approach), so I rarely if every use the 3rd channel. This is more of am academic discussion since this was brought up to me and does not make any sense to me. At the very least all I have to do us turn a set screw, slide the control arm off the needle and walah STOCK OS! But that is the why I am throwing this out for thought and comment...

 

[Bill Britton]

Well then. Academically have at it. My better judgement tells me it's best just to roll with the system and pick your fights on the big things that count. I personally don't see a problem with your setup, but I am a worm...

 

[HTV Boats]

I personally don't see this as any advantage but you have modified the needle from a manual thumbscrew by adding a mechanical arm to it. It depends where your racing and how chicken crap the guys you beat might get. For a National tiltle you might want to go with the accepted remote if you feel the need for one. You have not permanently modified it but what if someone wanted to add more cooling fins to the head? Any addition could be defined as a modification. Use it in open water to test with then take it off after you find your sweet spot.

Mic

 

[Jerry Dunlap]

As a former NAMBA Outboard Chair(way back in the day), my understanding of the rule is the carb supplied as OME and unmodified must be in place in NAMBA 20 Stock(A OPC) Outboard and all stock OB Classes. Back at the 2002 Springfield NAMBA Nats, Rudy Formanick's B OPC was disqualified because he did not have the stock needle valve in place between his onboard mixture control and the carb.

JD

 

[David Santistevan]

Jerry,

Just to clarify, this has the original needle, nothing changed there. I just added a control arm using a set screw to mount a control arm on the stock needle,

D

 

[Bill Britton]

And therefore you have modified/altered the carb... Read Jerry's post again and pay particular attention to the word 'unmodified'. It is perfectly clear. You stated that you don't really need it, but seem resistant to removing it. I'm tellin' ya, seems like alot of headaches for something that can be done easily and still conform to the rules. Do it the right way or your gonna get BS from the guys you race with the first time you beat them...

 

[Andy Greene]

Sounds alot like a certain water jacket that had the blue knocked off it stupidity- not worth the fight h34r:

that polished lower in your ref. pic wouldn't fly either btw

 

[Bill Britton]

Sounds like a certain water jacket that had the blue knocked off it stupidity- not worth the fight h34r:

that polished lower in your ref. pic wouldn't fly either btw

I know exactly who's O.S. water jacket you are talking about.

As for the O.S. Lower. Technically as far as NAMBA rules, You cannot polish the lower above the cavitation plate. Questionable for IMPBA as the rules state that the motor is to 'appear' stock. How far that gets hammered home is directly related to how bad you put a whoop-a$$ on a someone how wants to pick a fight.

 

[Mike Culhane]

Only one name comes to my mind.

 

[David Santistevan]

Interesting! Where are these rules coming from because they are not in the rule book. In fact this is the rule on polishing the lower:

The lower unit may be externally polished or painted, but must otherwise remain unchanged from the prop shaft housing up.

However, the skeg may be trimmed, thinned, shortened, or removed. The skeg may not be lengthened or widened.

As you can see in the actual rule, nothing is said about the cavitation plate or how much of the lower may be polished. It just says that it may be polished and must otherwise be unchanged from the prop shaft up.

This is very confusing to me in that I am hearing that the rules have been translated to a "Prime Directive" that nothing on the motor may be different from what comes out of the box. However the rules do not actually say that and in fact the make specific reference to the carb linkages and polishing the lowers.

I do recall the issue this last season with the blue head and the water cooling. Here is the difference between these situations and that one. First of all there is a blanket statement about the engine not being changed from it original manufacture, that is the overall blanket rule. In the case of the blue head there was no provision made for changing that head. In the absence of any other guildance you have to go back to the blanket rule. However in these cases with the 3rd channel and polishing the lower, there are specific provisions that specifically and clearly labled as exceptions to the blanket rule.

So who decides these interpretations of the rules?

D

 

[Bill Britton]

Simply put David, A stock O.S. in the Stock class is to remain just that. Stock. Anything else violates the spirit of the class.

 

[David Santistevan]

I guess that is the problem isn't? Whos definition of stock are we using ?

D

 

[Rudy Formanek]

Maybe you should invest in a phone call to the NAMBA Outboard chairman and get this specific question answered. Hopefully you will get a straight definitive answer, up or down. Maybe an email is better, then you can copy your district outboard chairman, also print it out and file it away.

 

[Jerry Dunlap]

The information you provided in the photo says something like, "the bell crank on the needle valve to provide mixture control." I believe that's is a modification of the OEM carb design. If this setup were to be raced in NAMBA District 8 A OPC I am fairly certain it would be deemed not legal for the class. I cannot speak for how other NAMBA districts would rule on this.

At this time, the position of Outboard Chair in NAMBA is vacant.

JD

 

[RonShaw]

The information you provided in the photo says something like, "the bell crank on the needle valve to provide mixture control." I believe that's is a modification of the OEM carb design. If this setup were to be raced in NAMBA District 8 A OPC I am fairly certain it would be deemed not legal for the class. I cannot speak for how other NAMBA districts would rule on this.

At this time, the position of Outboard Chair in NAMBA is vacant.

JD

Jerry is all over it. Definitely NOT legal and would constitute a disqualification David. Bill is right. Stay in the white and black and out of the gray by using a traditional remote needle between the tank and run the factory needle all the way out. Go race and kick some azz and let the drama queens, (you know who you are), stay in Southern GA and Fla!!!.....

 

[Andy Greene]

The information you provided in the photo says something like, "the bell crank on the needle valve to provide mixture control." I believe that's is a modification of the OEM carb design. If this setup were to be raced in NAMBA District 8 A OPC I am fairly certain it would be deemed not legal for the class. I cannot speak for how other NAMBA districts would rule on this.

At this time, the position of Outboard Chair in NAMBA is vacant.

JD

Go race and kick some azz and let the drama queens, (you know who you are), stay in Southern GA and Fla!!!.....

You know the year is way earlier yet, but THAT'S the funniest thing I have read yet, gonna have to file that one away :lol:

Andy

 

[Mike Culhane]

Bwahahahah