Outboard rules and class ideas needed

[Mike Luszcz]

6600mah would be a better option, especially with full P FE as you could run (2) 3300mah 4s packs as they sit lower then one 4s 5000mah, and fit better with the taller ESC's needed for the amp draw's you are gonna see. I have been testing my full P hull and I am using up probably 60% of my packs and I really hate seeing much more than a 65% use as it starts being hard on the packs. 5000mah seems like it would really be cutting it close, and with a full mil lap being required, at least with Scale FE hydro's, 7 laps is a lot of strain in my opinion.

Mike

 

[HTV Boats]

6600mah would be a better option, especially with full P FE as you could run (2) 3300mah 4s packs as they sit lower then one 4s 5000mah, and fit better with the taller ESC's needed for the amp draw's you are gonna see. I have been testing my full P hull and I am using up probably 60% of my packs and I really hate seeing much more than a 65% use as it starts being hard on the packs. 5000mah seems like it would really be cutting it close, and with a full mil lap being required, at least with Scale FE hydro's, 7 laps is a lot of strain in my opinion.

Mike

I do not disagree here at all. 6000-6600 would give a little more cushion, but it would encourage larger props and faster speeds. The reason I chose 5000ma was it seems to be a norm for spec/limited class. This could make a transition to full P easier and keep motor size down. A 1515 (40X74) runs a P boat or Q boat into the 50mph range easily. Gong to a 1521 (40X82) means you can't run a big prop, keeping the smaller motor competitive. When I go to 8000ma I can really prop up and move into the 60mph range. One of the reasons I chose 5000ma was there are many who have already purchased them. I have many batteries from 6000-10000ma and don't want to be accused of tailoring rules for my setups or any particular hull. There is an element of limitation here which could make the transition to FE power cheaper and easier. The same Q boat just propping up and adding battery can step up to open classes. If going this route has any merit I am fine with whatever number the majority wants. I don't think too many people are ready for the performance of FE power. That and no matter where you set the limit people are going to push the envelope Mic

 

[TUNLBOTR]

JUST WHEN I THOUGHT IT WAS SAFE TO COME BACK.

Here we go again.

Remember back in the '90's when you couldn't keep a KB 45 together, they had horrible track record for reliability.

In 1999 I ordered a 45 evo cmb from Art McMeans at tidewater in LA.I ordered a 20 outboard header for it;

took a set of aeromarine 1205a rudder brackets,

made the blocks to attach,

cut a 45 KB drivedog up, drilled a 1/4-28 stainless cap nut, and press fit a stub to it.

Put it on a KB lower.

Took it to Otto's house one evening, he knew at that point I was either off my rocker, or on to something.

Anyone remember the 2000 RC boat modeler buyers guide... the cover...

Herb Stewart worked with me to prototype from it, I debuted at Fy.Myers 1999 Turkey weekend race.

Jim Irwin has carried the torch from that point, it didn't start there, but imitation is the most sincere form of flattery.

It was considered the "most innovative design to come along."

Obviously it has a place in friggin model boats, Moving the motor in was to counter the massive weight the evo presented in finding CoG for balance. pin is still vertical.

Prop assembly still turns.....

So you go in, maybe limit prop hub face dimensions aft of transom, tweek it a little.

As far as box stock, or spec, are you going to spec the fuel?spec the prop? box stock os comes with a prop.

This ain't a can of worms, this is absurdity at it finest. Where did we fall off the fun beam, and turn into nascar... when the factory starts supporting us, we will support them, Until then it is a outlaw mentality.Bring it, race it, help others..

FOSTER MODEL BOATING. thanks cowboy, we still believe in the principle Pinkert believed in, but are breaking it down to too many finite angles, not a round general guideline.

This is where you come in Bob, you were willing to carry the sword, don't hurt yourself falling on it.

 

[SayMikey]

JUST WHEN I THOUGHT IT WAS SAFE TO COME BACK.

Here we go again.

Remember back in the '90's when you couldn't keep a KB 45 together, they had horrible track record for reliability.

In 1999 I ordered a 45 evo cmb from Art McMeans at tidewater in LA.I ordered a 20 outboard header for it;

took a set of aeromarine 1205a rudder brackets,

made the blocks to attach,

cut a 45 KB drivedog up, drilled a 1/4-28 stainless cap nut, and press fit a stub to it.

Put it on a KB lower.

Took it to Otto's house one evening, he knew at that point I was either off my rocker, or on to something. AMEN AMEN

Anyone remember the 2000 RC boat modeler buyers guide... the cover...

Herb Stewart worked with me to prototype from it, I debuted at Fy.Myers 1999 Turkey weekend race.

Jim Irwin has carried the torch from that point, it didn't start there, but imitation is the most sincere form of flattery.

It was considered the "most innovative design to come along."

Obviously it has a place in friggin model boats, Moving the motor in was to counter the massive weight the evo presented in finding CoG for balance. pin is still vertical.

Prop assembly still turns.....

So you go in, maybe limit prop hub face dimensions aft of transom, tweek it a little.

As far as box stock, or spec, are you going to spec the fuel?spec the prop? box stock os comes with a prop.

This ain't a can of worms, this is absurdity at it finest. Where did we fall off the fun beam, and turn into nascar... when the factory starts supporting us, we will support them, Until then it is a outlaw mentality.Bring it, race it, help others..

FOSTER MODEL BOATING. thanks cowboy, we still believe in the principle Pinkert believed in, but are breaking it down to too many finite angles, not a round general guideline.

This is where you come in Bob, you were willing to carry the sword, don't hurt yourself falling on it.

 

[Mike Luszcz]

6600mah would be a better option, especially with full P FE as you could run (2) 3300mah 4s packs as they sit lower then one 4s 5000mah, and fit better with the taller ESC's needed for the amp draw's you are gonna see. I have been testing my full P hull and I am using up probably 60% of my packs and I really hate seeing much more than a 65% use as it starts being hard on the packs. 5000mah seems like it would really be cutting it close, and with a full mil lap being required, at least with Scale FE hydro's, 7 laps is a lot of strain in my opinion.

Mike

I do not disagree here at all. 6000-6600 would give a little more cushion, but it would encourage larger props and faster speeds. The reason I chose 5000ma was it seems to be a norm for spec/limited class. This could make a transition to full P easier and keep motor size down. A 1515 (40X74) runs a P boat or Q boat into the 50mph range easily. Gong to a 1521 (40X82) means you can't run a big prop, keeping the smaller motor competitive. When I go to 8000ma I can really prop up and move into the 60mph range. One of the reasons I chose 5000ma was there are many who have already purchased them. I have many batteries from 6000-10000ma and don't want to be accused of tailoring rules for my setups or any particular hull. There is an element of limitation here which could make the transition to FE power cheaper and easier. The same Q boat just propping up and adding battery can step up to open classes. If going this route has any merit I am fine with whatever number the majority wants. I don't think too many people are ready for the performance of FE power. That and no matter where you set the limit people are going to push the envelope Mic

I can agree with these statements as well, but when I view the P and Q classes, I view an "Outlaw"/ Mod style class where its bring what you got, ya know? Keeping high 40's/ low 50's has always been about the P-limited class. P-limited is definitely a class that driving is gonna really, really make or break winning as the overall power is very balanced. It is also a low cost option which gives most all drivers a really fair opportunity.

With that being said, I have the feeling to finish heats in full P, a larger hull and little more weight were going to be necessary as I just think a 55-60mph 28-30" lightweight hull is really pushing its luck in a race water situation (Not to mention the amount of raw wind and rough water that has been at the big sites in recent years!) So my thinking was the larger hull, will require a bigger setup and a few more mah over 5000 to get the job done, and keep it in the high 50's. Running a 1521 on mine is all about KV more than physical size. My current setup is a 1521, 1860kv, where as a lot of guys are pushing the 1515 2200kv on a smaller boat in this class (Although that seems like a heck of a strong setup on a 30" lightweight hull in race conditions). I also wanted a stable platform to handle the presumably larger hull wave action that might occur in a class like Full P and help it finish races. Right now, I am around 58mph, and my temps are maybe a little cooler than I expected (90 degrees motor, 100degrees esc), so I could go larger prop, but 6600mah may start coming into play with my setup. I am just scared 5000mah would really be pushing the drawdown on the pack..and would sure hate to end up with swollen packs from overdischarge...just not worth it. Like you said, 8000mah, more prop, and I am over 60mph with ease, and that is just not needed on a hull this size. People that want that kind of speed are not looking at the big picture of proper driving wins races. Going over 60+ is just compensating for bad driving.

With all that jumble of thoughts, I guess I am left with this...does ESC need to be limited? I am using a customized Castle Airplane Ice 200 with watercooling added, and I feel its plenty enough for Full P power.

If my jumble of thoughts is readable, thoughts????

I will leave Q power out of this one, as that is just a whole different ballgame of raw power!

 

[HTV Boats]

A full P with 5000ma available on a 31-34" hull will outperform greatly in all areas speed and handling, existing P specs. Go 6000ma and have a cushion. All arbitrary. As much as I want to see it only voltage regulated for a class, (P or Q)I also want people to build and come to races. Can't race by ourselves. The other factor is not every existing hull has room for big batteries and the simple easy conversion goes out the window. I have built over a dozen different boxes and bought way too many battery combinations. I hope we can make it easier and less expensive for new prospects who might give up before they get to the point of racing. Hull, motor and ESC choices are still on there to fit anyones fancy. I don't like to nail down mph as everyone has different opinions and measuring tools. Safe to say I have seen 60mph boats get waxed by 50mph rigs. One thing to consider in using 2 batteries. A failure of a cell or wire connection in series should shut itself down easily. In a parallel setup disconnect one battery and you won't slow down much but will take the other battery down where it might fail while you think you have run time left. Mic

 

[obrien]

I think the current rules for p and q are good, although a max battery cap might not be a bad idea. Obviously it is easy to over power a p or q boat so if limiting the batteries keeps the speeds down a bit making things more competitive it would not be a bad thing. I have a q boat that needs to be finished so I really don't have much more input I can give on the racing other than what I have seen at the Brandon tunnel races. On spec tunnel my only comment would be to run the same esc and motor rules as namba. I know there has been talk of allowing a larger variety of motors as long as they fit the same kv rating but I am not sure how hard it would be to tech the motors to make sure they are legal

 

[lohring]

The spec tunnel rules are about ways to limit current. Current carrying capacity, not voltage, is what costs money. The reason I know is my involvement with an

with a 2000 amp ESC. The motor, running 700+ amps was definitely the limiting factor even though we ran an 800 amp slow blow fuse. There are lots of ways to limit current.
1. You can spec the motor to a low cost, readily available motor or motors. The P spec motors are rated at around 80 amps. Water cooling allows more for a short time.

2. You can spec the ESC to a low cost one with limited current carrying capacity. The Aquacraft ESC is conservatively rated at 72 amps.

3. You can specify a current limiter. One would probably need to be custom designed for around 100 amps and provided by the race management

4. You can data log the competitors and review the current draw. The Castle ESCs do this. Independent data loggers are also available.

5. You can spec the propeller. RCU specified propeller diameter as well as other things. Our club once used "identical" props that were drawn from a hat before each days racing. That gave exceptionally equal UL-1 racing, but boaters can't resist fooling with things.

6. You can combine the above. See the RCU electric rules as an example.

I think the currents should average around 100 amps maximum in the proposed spec P and Q classes for the equipment to be low cost. I think that motor and/or allowed component lists maintained by a committee are the best way to do this. Otherwise, you need to change the rule book each time the retailers change suppliers.

Lohring Miller

 

[obrien]

I know some groups want to limit the escs to the aqua craft and pro boat units. However I have been running the turnigy 120 units with out any issues. These escs are only $49 so that's quite a bit cheaper than than either of the other units. I have been running the same motor for 3 seasons now so it's not like I have been over ampingquacraft the motor. Since our discussion seems to cover keeping expenses down that should be even more reason to open up the esc rule. I know some guys say the aquacraft and pro oat escs are more durable than the turnigy unit, which they should be for their price, but the guys I have been running with have seen too many failures from these units. Now I realize the newer units might be better, but with the experience we had with those escs none of us have any interest in running those escs

 

[lohring]

The Turnigy 120 is a great ESC. Using it makes the motor the fuse. If you limit battery mah much below 5000, that will become the (dangerous) limiting factor. Once again it's all about what fails when the current gets high.

Lohring Miller

 

[Mike Luszcz]

Obrien and Lohring, We were actually discussing some limits on the Full P class, not P-limited as those rules are good as they are. This would be I guess what namba calls the P-OPC?

Mike

 

[obrien]

Lohring I have been running the turnigy 120 escs, aquacraft 2030, and the turnigy 5000 battery's with a lot of success and only one esc failure but that was because I got it wet. I know the excuse for not using the 120 esc is because now the motor is the fuse, but in all reality if racers do some proper testing they can find a fast reliable set up without burning up parts. Mike there is still discussion on the p-limited class because namba has its rules while the impba only has local club rules at this time.

 

[Christian Lucas]

Hi ,

it is what it is and Lohring is right. Use a 5000 mAh batterie and set the runing time minimum 3 minutes you will get a 20 c discharge rate at 100 amps ?That's a lot of horses . But best way is to use a limiter like that one from Steve Neu or SM Modellbau .The limiter is cheap and all have the same amount of energy .So the setup and how to use highest efficancy equipment to run high efficancy boats will be the future. I have talked with Steve and he tolde me that he can set the amonunt of useable energy like you want . I asked him for a German race class.Some here in Germany want a energy counter that you can read after race . If some racer suck to much juce they get some bad seconds on the racetime. We think that's a good way. Step in and we can start a world class serie.

 

[obrien]

I agree with everything Lohring is saying, except that I don't agree with limiting the esc. It works great in Namba and I would love to see impba adopt the same rule. I for one would be very interested in racing with the clubs in georgia in south carolina if they had these rules for the limited classes

 

[lohring]

NAMBA doesn't limit anything but the motor for P limited class power plants. The full P rules allow 10000 MAH batteries. You could probably pull well over 400 amps from that battery for a short time. However, that would take seriously expensive motors and ESCs. I love the idea of FAI style energy limiters, but I don't know of anyone trying them in US boat racing. They directly control the current and aren't too expensive. Race management would need to supply the units.

Lohring Miller

 

[obrien]

I wonder how expensive the limiters are?

 

[HTV Boats]

I started a discussion to possibly limit battery size and maybe save some costs. Now we are talking about adding equipment. I guess we need to come up with a P limited official class format and just leave P & Q alone. Just gets too complex trying to level competition. NAMBA isn't broke and IMPBA needs to decide if they want to organize things. Mic

 

[Doug Smock]

:lol:

 

[Chilli]

Welcome Back Doug...

 

[Doug Smock]

Thanks Mike, love the picture. :lol: