Nitro Survey
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K-ZAM said:Hey Don is ethelene oxide iegal? :unsure:Don Ferrette said:Nope but hydrazine & tetra nitromethane is...........BUCKSHOT said:
Kentley
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: Don,Don Ferrette said:
Please re-read my post again. The part after the section you quoted, it said "Don't get me wrong - I am willing to learn from others and potentially make a change. I can't afford to torch engines for a 5% gain so I need to be convinced that the motors are up to it."
What's wrong with thinking that? The less $ I spend fixing anything is more $ I can spend on other boating stuff. As I stand now I'm not breaking engines and I'd like to think I'm competitive. Maybe I won't break engines using no castor oil - it just goes against what I've known in the past and you can't blame me for being cautious. The only damage I've had to a piston and sleeve in the last 5 years was due to the wrist pin breaking after dunking it at full noise.
edit - in answer to your question about the change in EGT - more methanol with the lower oil content mix. end edit.
Please don't take my points as an insult to you - they are definately not that. S#1t, I'm in awe of anyone that can run 108mph and respect your comments....
Tim.
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Jerry Wyss
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My question is for Don, Is this "Cool Power Blue Kart Oil" for mixing with gasoline?? Have'nt seen too many people runnin'
methenol in they're karts around here,,,course I do live in Orygun.
Jerry
methenol in they're karts around here,,,course I do live in Orygun.
Jerry
EatMyShortsRacing
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Don...Don Ferrette said:
Dont get us wrong we are prepared to step outside the box.... I believe some of the evidence we have can be valuable for other racers so they dont make the same mistakes we did and learn from our experience. In Australia for some reason Cool Power has not worked for us. Klotz and NEO and Castor have. There are experts on both sides saying Castor is or isnt required and that is for each boater to make their own mind up on.
Some of our discussion also touches on percentages of oil and its effect on performance as well as protection and I believe this is a valuable debate and more effort should be put into understanding the differences the oil does make both in reducing friction and the effect it has on combustion and heat transfer in the engine..
EMS Racing Chicken or the egg????
DaveMarles
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Don,
As you know I never argue anything but if you got a 3mph increase on the .21 from dropping the oil content 4% then something was wrong in the first place. Possibly as has been said, pipe length too long or maybe CR too low. Decreasing the oil content in all tests I have done does not improve power output at all once the setup has been optimised. Plenty of oil means plenty of power and longer engine life. High oil content has drawbacks, one of which is a higher chance of detonation. Oil has a higher calorific value than methanol and so any argument that less oil and more methanol will give more power is hard to understand. I know that castor is an old fashioned oil but that doesn't make it a bad oil. Its a very good lubricant and is extremely effective at very high temperatures unlike most synthetics. If you ask ten people about adding a few percent of castor you will get ten answers but I use 3% because it works for me. If I don't use it and I get a high load situation on the engine then the thing takes longer to get back on the pipe and thats not acceptable for my kind of racing.
Low oil content gives better fuel consumption which is OK for model racing cars but I don't think thats an issue here. I run 19 to 20% oil and if I thought that a lower oil content would give the engine a better performance I'd use it in a heartbeat.
The best oil I ever used was Premium 500 from Florida recommended by that Hydro guy Andy but it melted the plastic in the boot (trunk) of the car when I spilled some and turned all the paintwork on the boat brown but worse, it took the skin off my hands so its a no-no.
Dave
As you know I never argue anything but if you got a 3mph increase on the .21 from dropping the oil content 4% then something was wrong in the first place. Possibly as has been said, pipe length too long or maybe CR too low. Decreasing the oil content in all tests I have done does not improve power output at all once the setup has been optimised. Plenty of oil means plenty of power and longer engine life. High oil content has drawbacks, one of which is a higher chance of detonation. Oil has a higher calorific value than methanol and so any argument that less oil and more methanol will give more power is hard to understand. I know that castor is an old fashioned oil but that doesn't make it a bad oil. Its a very good lubricant and is extremely effective at very high temperatures unlike most synthetics. If you ask ten people about adding a few percent of castor you will get ten answers but I use 3% because it works for me. If I don't use it and I get a high load situation on the engine then the thing takes longer to get back on the pipe and thats not acceptable for my kind of racing.
Low oil content gives better fuel consumption which is OK for model racing cars but I don't think thats an issue here. I run 19 to 20% oil and if I thought that a lower oil content would give the engine a better performance I'd use it in a heartbeat.
The best oil I ever used was Premium 500 from Florida recommended by that Hydro guy Andy but it melted the plastic in the boot (trunk) of the car when I spilled some and turned all the paintwork on the boat brown but worse, it took the skin off my hands so its a no-no.
Dave
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Good point as Morgan makes alot of different oils. Here's what we use-GTR said:
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Well Dave the oil test was after a full day at the pond focusing on just that boat. Final set up was MAC21 motor as previously stated with 8 3/4" pipe length so pipe was not too long. Head clearance set at .008" which is right where Andy recommends for that motor. We tested & tested & tested that day with setup, different props, pipes & lengths, etc., etc. Bottom line- I know what we saw on the gun & my MAC motors are quite content on 12% in the 21's & 15% in everything else, no castor. B)DaveMarles said:
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Jerry Wyss
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Great! "Friction Fighter" additive, still don't know if it's formulated for gas. Tim D., do you have the answer? Could explain a
great deal.
great deal.
gil sonsino
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So we stayed with two different schools working in different ways showing the complexity of this science .Definitevely we are big boys playing with big toys ! That's great thread once I'm sure it can improve knowledge for all despite points of view or personal preferences.I've learned to never change horses in the midstream that's the reason I stuck to what is working and paying off at least for me!
Glad to be part of this forum!
Gill
AWaddle322
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yes Morgan makes alot of different oils. The oil that Don uses is not the same oil that we use. We use cool power fully synthetic. I have broke some motors and the truth is I would have broke the motors regardless of oil or content ( mostly being boat way to tight but never could get up to speed to see that).
Why would anyone believe that more oil equals better luberication. you get to much oil and the balls in the bearing skid instead of spin. Oil is not supposed to burn and something that doesn't burn in fuel charge can not possible make more power. The only way that less oil (to a point) can not equal more power is if you combination is wrong. Dave the only way that more oil can make more power is if the oil is holding in more heat and you are not running your motor hot enough with less oil. this is like comparing apples to oranges (you must make changes to optimaze). If this is not the case I would like an education.
Another great example of this is brand of glow plugs. Most record holder that i know say that brand X of glow plugs is the best and sure enough if you change glow plugs and make no other changes brand x will be faster but if you happen to click that needle valve a couple of clicks with my setup I go faster with brand o. In the last record event that i attended Brand O was about 1/2 second faster in 2 laps. Everyone has there believes wether it is from experience or what someone has told you but when you combine what you have learned from the last time you may not get the same results. With every little change optimum has changed and may change the results of any test that you may have tested in the past.
Don is suggesting one percent of oil for everything except 20 motors, i believe a little different. k motors need more oil and possible castor due to the little taper in there sleeves. mac and cmb motors need less oil due to a greater taper and they can get away with less oil than say a picco because of steel rod instaed of aluminum. Every motor combination needs a little something different. I believe that 17 percnt oil can be run in every motor out there with maybe the excpetion of the K motors. i am not saying that 17 percent is the best but that is safe and I am one that has to keep it simple(same fuel 20 thru 80). At record trials we have been to 10 percent but at record trials if it goes boom that is just part of it. To be able to go close to a record you will need every bit of extra power that you can find and cutting oil content is a quick way of adding power at the risk of hand greanading engines. Also during the hottest part of the summer I believe that it takes a little more oil than other times of the year due to water tempature nd outside tempature.
I am fully convinced that you will find more speed by working with set up and props than any possible gains that you could achieve by ajusting oil content or even motor modifications.
Something that has always amazed me is Something like Don saying that Picco are bad about sticking pistons. I have broke every part on a picco and have never stuck a piston or like his comment about cmb ACC, I know of a couple people that are running them successfully. I guess different things work for different people. Don I am not trying to blast you either but if the Aussies are convinced they need this amount of oil and this kind of oil then so be it. Its just like that guy that believes I highly modified engine by _____,is what it takes to be competitive(if thats the competitive edge he needs great and I will take great delight if and when out run him with my bone stock engines).
If you want to at the top of the class you are going to break stuff and have bad weekends, and my attitude is as long as i learned something that it is worth it. If you are trophy hunter you should probably run lots of oil and lots of head clearance and a little bitty prop witha semi tight boat and just settle for that 50 mph 20 hydo.
Kently, what is ethelene oxide. Are we to assume this is what that 7 percent of ? is?
one other thing I am convienced all oils are not created equally, but if it works for me I am not going to change,and this goes for percentages of oil as well.
Just some more of me rambling.
Allen waddle
Why would anyone believe that more oil equals better luberication. you get to much oil and the balls in the bearing skid instead of spin. Oil is not supposed to burn and something that doesn't burn in fuel charge can not possible make more power. The only way that less oil (to a point) can not equal more power is if you combination is wrong. Dave the only way that more oil can make more power is if the oil is holding in more heat and you are not running your motor hot enough with less oil. this is like comparing apples to oranges (you must make changes to optimaze). If this is not the case I would like an education.
Another great example of this is brand of glow plugs. Most record holder that i know say that brand X of glow plugs is the best and sure enough if you change glow plugs and make no other changes brand x will be faster but if you happen to click that needle valve a couple of clicks with my setup I go faster with brand o. In the last record event that i attended Brand O was about 1/2 second faster in 2 laps. Everyone has there believes wether it is from experience or what someone has told you but when you combine what you have learned from the last time you may not get the same results. With every little change optimum has changed and may change the results of any test that you may have tested in the past.
Don is suggesting one percent of oil for everything except 20 motors, i believe a little different. k motors need more oil and possible castor due to the little taper in there sleeves. mac and cmb motors need less oil due to a greater taper and they can get away with less oil than say a picco because of steel rod instaed of aluminum. Every motor combination needs a little something different. I believe that 17 percnt oil can be run in every motor out there with maybe the excpetion of the K motors. i am not saying that 17 percent is the best but that is safe and I am one that has to keep it simple(same fuel 20 thru 80). At record trials we have been to 10 percent but at record trials if it goes boom that is just part of it. To be able to go close to a record you will need every bit of extra power that you can find and cutting oil content is a quick way of adding power at the risk of hand greanading engines. Also during the hottest part of the summer I believe that it takes a little more oil than other times of the year due to water tempature nd outside tempature.
I am fully convinced that you will find more speed by working with set up and props than any possible gains that you could achieve by ajusting oil content or even motor modifications.
Something that has always amazed me is Something like Don saying that Picco are bad about sticking pistons. I have broke every part on a picco and have never stuck a piston or like his comment about cmb ACC, I know of a couple people that are running them successfully. I guess different things work for different people. Don I am not trying to blast you either but if the Aussies are convinced they need this amount of oil and this kind of oil then so be it. Its just like that guy that believes I highly modified engine by _____,is what it takes to be competitive(if thats the competitive edge he needs great and I will take great delight if and when out run him with my bone stock engines).
If you want to at the top of the class you are going to break stuff and have bad weekends, and my attitude is as long as i learned something that it is worth it. If you are trophy hunter you should probably run lots of oil and lots of head clearance and a little bitty prop witha semi tight boat and just settle for that 50 mph 20 hydo.
Kently, what is ethelene oxide. Are we to assume this is what that 7 percent of ? is?
one other thing I am convienced all oils are not created equally, but if it works for me I am not going to change,and this goes for percentages of oil as well.
Just some more of me rambling.
Allen waddle
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We've also used it in gas engines with excellent results.Jerry Wyss said:
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"Something that has always amazed me is Something like Don saying that Picco are bad about sticking pistons. I have broke every part on a picco and have never stuck a piston or like his comment about cmb ACC, I know of a couple people that are running them successfully."
Allen-
I did not state that those motors are bad, just there were known extensive problems with some of them. My twin Roadrunner with a pair of 80EXR's was a bullet, but it seemed like you said a prayer every run that the motors would come back in one piece. Back in '99 ( thought it was '98 at first) I personally saw over 20 Picco EXR engines of various sizes in different applications by different boaters blow up, the vast majority from pistons sticking & ripping the rod out. I was one of the few who didn't stick pistons but rather repeated crank pin failures which is just as bad (Picco did finally address this problem) I ran CMB's for a long time & like I said still think they are a great motor but there was a bunch of needle bearing problems from the bad batch of needles that got out there & a batch of AAC liners that the chrome came off rather quickly. All things considered, different things work for different people. B)
And if the Aussie guys are so deeply convinced as to what they do that's great. BUT making others believe that they'll blow up everything they have if they try the kart racing oil just isn't right either (please take no offense Tim & Craig) :huh:
Allen-
I did not state that those motors are bad, just there were known extensive problems with some of them. My twin Roadrunner with a pair of 80EXR's was a bullet, but it seemed like you said a prayer every run that the motors would come back in one piece. Back in '99 ( thought it was '98 at first) I personally saw over 20 Picco EXR engines of various sizes in different applications by different boaters blow up, the vast majority from pistons sticking & ripping the rod out. I was one of the few who didn't stick pistons but rather repeated crank pin failures which is just as bad (Picco did finally address this problem) I ran CMB's for a long time & like I said still think they are a great motor but there was a bunch of needle bearing problems from the bad batch of needles that got out there & a batch of AAC liners that the chrome came off rather quickly. All things considered, different things work for different people. B)
And if the Aussie guys are so deeply convinced as to what they do that's great. BUT making others believe that they'll blow up everything they have if they try the kart racing oil just isn't right either (please take no offense Tim & Craig) :huh:
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"Some of our discussion also touches on percentages of oil and its effect on performance as well as protection and I believe this is a valuable debate and more effort should be put into understanding the differences the oil does make both in reducing friction and the effect it has on combustion and heat transfer in the engine.."
Good point, I'll go along with that. B)
Good point, I'll go along with that. B)
AWaddle322
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I also agree and the reason for the above post is that not everyone has the same problems. When i have something less than positive to say I try to refer to bandx or something like that. its not that it a secret, I just dont believe that is good for the boating community to bad mouth a particular product and because it does work for so and so does not mean that it will not be the best ever product for me.
Allen
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I don't consider it bad mouthing or trash talking if it's known problems. Let me put it to you this way- if you were buying a motor & there were people out there that were aware of known issues (& possible fixes like what I do to help CMB rod needles last longer) would you want to know or find out the hard way? At $300 - $500 a pop for motors these days I'd think it's better for "the boating community" if these things were known up front so at least attempts can be made to avoid someone having a $500 handful of scrap metal. I've seen boaters quit the hobby/sport over that & that definitely ain't good for "the boating community" either. Not to mention how said pissed off ex-boater can discourage other potential new boaters ................AWaddle322 said:
AWaddle322
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Don,
Speaking of CMB needle bearings failing,I have learned there is a potential problemas I have had that problem and would love to hear the fix.
Allen
Speaking of CMB needle bearings failing,I have learned there is a potential problemas I have had that problem and would love to hear the fix.
Allen
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Sure I'd be glad to share this with everyone-AWaddle322 said:
As in attached pic drill a hole in the drum housing & radius out the front face (faces carb) to help direct oil/fuel mix into the hole and to the needles. This little 10 minute mod stopped my CMB greenheads from bluing the needles which was happening even at 20% oil levels.
AWaddle322
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I had bought a used engine from someone that had this done to it and was concerened me because I did not understand what it was for and i have actually seen this part of the drum housing break off in atleat 2 engines. On the motors i had seen break off the bushing was in past the aluminum allowing the drum housing to ride on the aluminum instead of the bushing. both of my greenheads have the bushing out past the aluminum allowing the drum to ride on the bushings. Have you seen any problems with this?
Thanks for the info!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Sincerely,
Allen Waddle
Thanks for the info!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Sincerely,
Allen Waddle
