New Picco 45

[Brad Christy]

Jack,

This comment came to me from a number of different people who were in direct contact with Mario and Luigi. These people didn't directly know each other and were only relaying what they had been told. Rest assured, I did NOT make it up. Picco was shugging off the blame. <_<

As I said, I didn't post to start a "Picco bash". It is what it is.

Thanks. Brad.

Titan Racing Components

BlackJack Hydros

 

[Rokieboater]

The rod is not the problem. You have to look deeper into the rod failure to find the problem. Sure the rod is the weak point but is not the problem. Just my 2cent worth.

Paul,

What is the problem? Help us out here so we don't continue to break these rods.

Robert

 

[Jack ODonnell]

Jack,

This comment came to me from a number of different people who were in direct contact with Mario and Luigi. These people didn't directly know each other and were only relaying what they had been told. Rest assured, I did NOT make it up. Picco was shugging off the blame. <_<

As I said, I didn't post to start a "Picco bash". It is what it is.

Thanks. Brad.

Titan Racing Components

BlackJack Hydros

Brad; That is what i thought,second hand information. Who is Mario & Luigi ? J.ODonnell

 

[PAUL STIRTON]

The rod is not the problem. You have to look deeper into the rod failure to find the problem. Sure the rod is the weak point but is not the problem. Just my 2cent worth.

Paul,

What is the problem? Help us out here so we don't continue to break these rods.

Robert

Ok in my opinion the crank and bearings are the problem. The distance between to front and rear bearingd is not long enough causing the crank to splay which puts load on the bushing in the rod causing it to grab and then spin and also contributes to the crank pin breaking. The only way to fix it is for a completle redesign of the case and crank and bearings with more balls in them.

Brad you know I have used your rods with great success and you make fantastic rods. The reason your rods or RPM rods don't fail is because your bushings are swaged in better.

Another way the issue can be fixed to a point is to drill the oil hole in the rod from the top down, because oil holes in the bottom of the rod actually draw iol away from the crank pin not pump oil in. This is my honest opinion as to why some engines fail and is no reflection on anybody or engine manufacturer. It has nothing to do with Nitro content although oil content may also contribute to all of the above issues.

 

[Brad Christy]

Jack,

"Mario and Luigi" are the two Mario Bros. of Nintendo fame. It was a wisea$$ comment on my part. I'm sure that the readers of a certain generation knew EXACTLY who I was talking about. Sorry for the mix-up.

I know the old man's name is Umberto (or something along those lines) and I know there are at least two children in the business (or at least I THINK there are...) What their names are, I couldn't tell ya. Doesn't matter.... Nevermind.......

Yes, it was second hand info, but it came from several different sources, almost in unison. Eerie, ain't it?

The point is this: Picco has a problem and they refuse to address it. They'd rather point fingers. In the past, it was just the 67/80 rods that were goat cheese. I guess they thought they'd try and make the 45's the same way. :huh:

I don't understand what the issue is. The rod is crap. Make a better one. Don't cut corners. Do whatever has to be done so that it doesn't fail under normal operating conditions and all this "complaining" will go away. It seems simple, really.

Thanks. Brad.

Titan Racing Components

BlackJack Hydros

 

[Tim_Duggan]

The reason your rods or RPM rods don't fail is because your bushings are swaged in better.

Another way the issue can be fixed to a point is to drill the oil hole in the rod from the top down, because oil holes in the bottom of the rod actually draw iol away from the crank pin not pump oil in.

BINGO! Also, running the oil hole in thru the top is not weakening a thinner / more stressed part of the rod.

Mine hasn't failed yet (because I bent the boat while in the process of running it in) but from what I've heard, the rod does appear to be made of 7075.

I will be resorting to an aftermarket rod as soon as it is available. I'll also be running with a larger prop / longer pipe than what the steel rod engines use to keep the rpm down and the load up. These engines have torque unlike some other 45's that had very little, and small props were the order of the day.

Personally, I'd rather let the engines rev to what they are capable of, but that requires 100% confidence in the rod.

Another thing that might be a contributing factor is Aeromarine collets. I got one for mine and it was so out of true it wasn't funny. I ditched it and went to a square drive set-up that does run true....

 

[Brad Christy]

Paul,

Is there that much of a difference between the CMB HR crank and the Picco crank? The CMB's have needle bearings, which are WWWWAAAAAYYYYYY less forgiving when it comes to misalignment. I've never seen a CMB 45HR crank, nor have I seen a Picco. But the engines are roughy the same size on the outside, so, like I said, how much different could they be?

BTW,

I'm not looking to perpetuate the "bash", Paul has piqued my curiosity.

Thanks. Brad.

Titan Racing Components

BlackJack Hydros

 

[ALLAN YUEN]

The rod is not the problem. You have to look deeper into the rod failure to find the problem. Sure the rod is the weak point but is not the problem. Just my 2cent worth.

Paul,

What is the problem? Help us out here so we don't continue to break these rods.

Robert

Ok in my opinion the crank and bearings are the problem. The distance between to front and rear bearingd is not long enough causing the crank to splay which puts load on the bushing in the rod causing it to grab and then spin and also contributes to the crank pin breaking. The only way to fix it is for a completle redesign of the case and crank and bearings with more balls in them.

Brad you know I have used your rods with great success and you make fantastic rods. The reason your rods or RPM rods don't fail is because your bushings are swaged in better.

Another way the issue can be fixed to a point is to drill the oil hole in the rod from the top down, because oil holes in the bottom of the rod actually draw iol away from the crank pin not pump oil in. This is my honest opinion as to why some engines fail and is no reflection on anybody or engine manufacturer. It has nothing to do with Nitro content although oil content may also contribute to all of the above issues.

Paul Did you see which Swiss ball bearing or steel fag ball bearing? If use swiss bearing and it cant be any problem but depend how many of percent for castol oil and number grade? :blink: Also show picture on new Con Rod any holes or miss holes?

 

[Jack ODonnell]

Jack,

"Mario and Luigi" are the two Mario Bros. of Nintendo fame. It was a wisea$$ comment on my part. I'm sure that the readers of a certain generation knew EXACTLY who I was talking about. Sorry for the mix-up.

I know the old man's name is Umberto (or something along those lines) and I know there are at least two children in the business (or at least I THINK there are...) What their names are, I couldn't tell ya. Doesn't matter.... Nevermind.......

Yes, it was second hand info, but it came from several different sources, almost in unison. Eerie, ain't it?

The point is this: Picco has a problem and they refuse to address it. They'd rather point fingers. In the past, it was just the 67/80 rods that were goat cheese. I guess they thought they'd try and make the 45's the same way. :huh:

I don't understand what the issue is. The rod is crap. Make a better one. Don't cut corners. Do whatever has to be done so that it doesn't fail under normal operating conditions and all this "complaining" will go away. It seems simple, really.

Thanks. Brad.

Titan Racing Components

BlackJack Hydros

Brad; I did not comment on the rod issue,My question was,If Stupid Americans using to much nitro and talking to Mr.Picco is a waste of time is not bashing Picco,Then i dont know what is. In case you want to bash some more his name is Gualtiero Picco J.ODonnell

 

[PAUL STIRTON]

Paul,

Is there that much of a difference between the CMB HR crank and the Picco crank? The CMB's have needle bearings, which are WWWWAAAAAYYYYYY less forgiving when it comes to misalignment. I've never seen a CMB 45HR crank, nor have I seen a Picco. But the engines are roughy the same size on the outside, so, like I said, how much different could they be?

BTW,

I'm not looking to perpetuate the "bash", Paul has piqued my curiosity.

Thanks. Brad.

Titan Racing Components

BlackJack Hydros

Brad the CMB HR motors were breaking cranks also. The k 45 was getting close to a long enough crank. Take a look at the lengh of the crank shaft in any one of the good plyon engines for example the dutch MB engine or the early Rossi 40 pylon engine.

Allen. I will try and post some pictures of a modified Picco rod with a different bushing and with the oil hole in the top of the rod when I have finished the standard Picco rods we are modifing now.

 

[FCM Racing]

Paul,

Is there that much of a difference between the CMB HR crank and the Picco crank? The CMB's have needle bearings, which are WWWWAAAAAYYYYYY less forgiving when it comes to misalignment. I've never seen a CMB 45HR crank, nor have I seen a Picco. But the engines are roughy the same size on the outside, so, like I said, how much different could they be?

BTW,

I'm not looking to perpetuate the "bash", Paul has piqued my curiosity.

Thanks. Brad.

Titan Racing Components

BlackJack Hydros

Brad the CMB HR motors were breaking cranks also. The k 45 was getting close to a long enough crank. Take a look at the lengh of the crank shaft in any one of the good plyon engines for example the dutch MB engine or the early Rossi 40 pylon engine.

Allen. I will try and post some pictures of a modified Picco rod with a different bushing and with the oil hole in the top of the rod when I have finished the standard Picco rods we are modifing now.

Well I guess its time to cut my losses what is left of my motor is the drum linner head and and cooling cap crank and flywheel can some one tell me what a fair price might be I will post in the for sale

Thanks

Gary FCM Racing

 

[Brad Christy]

Jack,

I didn't weigh in on this to get into a tiffy with anyone. I only relayed info I had gathered from what I consider to be reliable sources. Information that is confirmed by the onset of this thread.

I got into this hobby ten years ago. Picco had a chronic rod failure problem then. It persisted throughout the time they manufactured marine engines until they got out of the market. Now, they have getten back into the marine market and the rod failure issue arises once again. Coincidence.......... I think not.

I had alot more to say, but contained myself. Why bother.

Thanks. Brad.

Titan Racing Components

BlackJack Hydros

 

[Joe Warren]

Brad, Many of Your BRAD CHRISTY Rods failed Too. In the same engines the boaters had replaced the Picco rods with. Do you have a guess as to why? The point is many are just misused in General. But the engine does benefit from being clearenced before use. I have made 100,0000`s laps with picco engines. The 67-80 rod was a problem when the engine was installed in a rigger & the ex timing raised. That same rod would last for years in a mono or a boat that does not unload @ speed. the 45 rods lasted for years if you ran the proper percent oil & clearence the rod on the thrust sides.it would have been nice to seen needle brg rods in the picco 67-80. the New XP picco 90 has a neele brg rod.

 

[Tim_Duggan]

the 45 rods lasted for years if you ran the proper percent oil & clearence the rod on the thrust sides.

Joe,

Mind sharing those numbers at all?

Tim.

 

[PAUL STIRTON]

Brad, Many of Your BRAD CHRISTY Rods failed Too. In the same engines the boaters had replaced the Picco rods with. Do you have a guess as to why? The point is many are just misused in General. But the engine does benefit from being clearenced before use. I have made 100,0000`s laps with picco engines. The 67-80 rod was a problem when the engine was installed in a rigger & the ex timing raised. That same rod would last for years in a mono or a boat that does not unload @ speed. the 45 rods lasted for years if you ran the proper percent oil & clearence the rod on the thrust sides.it would have been nice to seen needle brg rods in the picco 67-80. the New XP picco 90 has a neele brg rod.

Joe yes oil percentage helps a bunch I use 20% 15 kl200 and 5 Castor never had a engine fail with this oil mix. Have tried other oils and mixes and then have had plently blow up.

 

[picco lover]

Hi Everyone

iam will ring Alberto later tonight as he is not in the office yet

right now for the picco 45

i have been running rc boats since i was 11 years old iam now 41

i have run ops 3.5, ops 7.5 ops 67

os vrm 7.5 , picco 90 , picco 67 , picco 45

i have run them as disk , drum , and any other configuration you can think of

mono, outrigger, cats

now i have pushed a rod though the case on a ops45 shattered a disk on a ops 45

blow rods up ops45

and iam shore that you guys have run CMB and blown them up or broke a rod ect

i have seen a CMB 67 crack a liner i have seen ops 90 blow a head right off the case

and there are thousands of things that can go wrong with any motor

so DO NOT WRIGHT IN HERE THAT PICCO ARE SH++ as all engines have there problems

i will try to talk to Alberto and that is all we can do

i DO NOT BELIEVE THAT IT IS A ROD PROBLEM

Alberto makes a GREAT Motor and there will be the %1 that will want to push the motor to far WELL YOU DO THAT AT YOU OWN RISK

if i sell a motor and something goes wrong and it has not been Modded then i will replace what ever parts need to be replaced at my cost ( Please ASk Aaron here in Australia)

and his motors are modded

yes i do believe if you are in that %1 then yes get a after market rod (YOUR CHOICES )

Alberto DOES NOT MAKE MOTORS FOR THE %1 as for any rc marine manufacture

iam just happy to run and sell and have picco back in boats

i have a picco 45 new 2009 model and i have put 5LT though the motor and i pulled her down last night

all great ( no Problems )

this is how i break them in

fuel %60 nitro

%18 Klots oil

%22 meths

my 2 tanks are 12 ounces total i get 3 full tanks from 1LT of fuel

and i have run 5 LT though the motor = 15 tanks

and still a bit tight at TDC

first few tanks about 3 tanks i run her as rich as poss and run down the straight flat out and 1/2 throttle around the corners will not come on pipe sounds like it is gargling

the next few tanks (about 3 again ) i lean her down very small amounts until it starts to (just come on to the pipe ) i then run a few more tanks like that ( about 3 again ) and heat cycle the piston and liner in

about now it is just stating to start without undoing the plug to turn her over

at this point i have now run about 9 tanks or about 3 lt though her

at this stage again i slowly lean her down for the next few tanks and still heat cycle the motor and i have not done a full flat out lap yet

this is where iam at now and i have pulled the motor apart all looks great

the motor still has a Very good nip at TDC as a little more then i will be good to do a few laps without backing off

so there you go that is what i have been doing for years

so to finish off

someone said that this is a good thread for CMB well i do not think so as there have been some great ideas that have come on this thread eg After market rod

oil content ect

and we are all here to HELP each other ( that is What i thought )

iam not bagging any or knocking any motor or person

i JUST WANT TO HELP FIX ANY PROBLEMS that might come up form here to there

that is all

thanks neal

ps i will post any info that i get from Alberto

pps LETS ALL WORK TOGETHER TO HELP EVERYONE

 

[Martin Hamilton]

I cant beleive that picco are still useing oil holes through the under side of the big end, It needs to go in from the top in the centre of the rod shaft with a groove running along the centre of the rod to direct the oil into the big end. Been adding this extra hole and groove to rods that never had this for 30 years and never had a rod or pin fail (touch wood) in tethered hydros. Its also very important that this oil hole faces on to valve so that oil goes straight on to the groove and hole from fuel/oil entering the engine. Even more important on an engine of Picco design with a drum valve,Because the fuel charge enters from the top of the valve housing and is very efficient at getting fuel up into the cylinder the big end has always had potential problems in this area. As opposed to a reverse drum valve design which probably has the best lubrication to the big end. Think front induction whether it be on the front or rear of the engine its a reverse drum valve.

 

[Joe Warren]

I cant beleive that picco are still useing oil holes through the under side of the big end, It needs to go in from the top in the centre of the rod shaft with a groove running along the centre of the rod to direct the oil into the big end. Been adding this extra hole and groove to rods that never had this for 30 years and never had a rod or pin fail (touch wood) in tethered hydros. Its also very important that this oil hole faces on to valve so that oil goes straight on to the groove and hole from fuel/oil entering the engine. Even more important on an engine of Picco design with a drum valve,Because the fuel charge enters from the top of the valve housing and is very efficient at getting fuel up into the cylinder the big end has always had potential problems in this area. As opposed to a reverse drum valve design which probably has the best lubrication to the big end. Think front induction whether it be on the front or rear of the engine its a reverse drum valve.

You must flow the oil/fuel thru the bushing @ ALL TIMES.

 

[Joe Warren]

the 45 rods lasted for years if you ran the proper percent oil & clearence the rod on the thrust sides.

Joe,

Mind sharing those numbers at all?

Tim.

Tim, The utmost important part on the picco 45 is you must have the 303 stainless flywheel cone under the flywheel.This maintains the orginal factory crank end play Does not wear & all for the crank end play to increase.Now if the brass cone is used?? as soon as it starts slipping. this machines off material & the crank end play starts to increase. This itself causes misalignment of the rod & piston & the problems start to progress. The only thing that need to be done to the new engine is the stainless flywheel cone installed. & make absolute sure the crank pin is longer than the big end of the rod is wide??? approx .010 clearence is needed. This keeps the rod from being thrust loaded into the drum @ a later time of use.. Picco still hones their carb hsg static. (unloaded no stress). If You desire to run the stk carb. You will need to completely unload the carb . Torque the hsg onto the intake hsg @ .12 inch lbs ( this now allows the proper stress) & Take a hone or I use a 67 boom tube with 320 paper wrapped around it to gently roll thru the bore to remove any high (stress) spots. 4-5 strokes & cleaning and now the drum fits smoothly. reassembly the carb & torque to the front of the engine @ .012. DO NOT - NEVER run this engine with the carb loose.... Hoping it will wear in....... This allows the drum brass liner to get pushed forward as soon as the engine comes to operating temps.(not good) These same mods have been performed on many 45 engines I own & have out lastest many other brands & designs. Mine are still running today!!! smooth as a kitten.

 

[Joe Warren]

the 45 rods lasted for years if you ran the proper percent oil & clearence the rod on the thrust sides.

Joe,

Mind sharing those numbers at all?

Tim.

Tim for the answer on the oil the only additive I use is KLOTZ KL100. It is added to the fuel That I may be runing for that race. depending on what you are buying?? most are blended for 12 14 16 17 percent oils. you will be adding 2 oz or maybe 4oz of oil to get it where it needs to be & you will know the fuel has some Good quaiity oil in it if you put it in there..... the low oil percent fuels are cheaper for the blender & may be fine if you are running the heavier needle rods?? hope this help you out.