How "Scale" is Scale

[FloridaScaleBoater]

No problem Drew here is the place to be able to ask a question without getting blasted. There used to be a belly pan dimension in the NAMBA Scale Rules but it has been removed. The Dumas belly pan should be ok since it resembles the original boat sort of. It needs to be longer but max depth should be less than .75in. The max dimensions used to be the same as the RCU rule. Check with you District Chairman or the National Chair as I am not in charge of that anymore.
Yeah Ed as long as that cowl vent is like the pic and not like the stock Dumas kit you're alright. Seems a lot of those were done with the flat open non-vaned vent like the Circus and that is a common structural mistake.

Lighten up Francis, you have no idea what Andy (Drew) is asking about

Andy, what you have been shown to do to the bottom of your boat WILL NOT make it illigal to run in district-3

Don't think it would come into question in Atlanta either.

Really don't think it would come into question out in the Pacific North West as there was a MODIFIED Dumas run out there a few years ago. No one said a word

 

[Andy Greene]

No problem Drew here is the place to be able to ask a question without getting blasted. There used to be a belly pan dimension in the NAMBA Scale Rules but it has been removed. The Dumas belly pan should be ok since it resembles the original boat sort of. It needs to be longer but max depth should be less than .75in. The max dimensions used to be the same as the RCU rule. Check with you District Chairman or the National Chair as I am not in charge of that anymore.
Yeah Ed as long as that cowl vent is like the pic and not like the stock Dumas kit you're alright. Seems a lot of those were done with the flat open non-vaned vent like the Circus and that is a common structural mistake.

Lighten up Francis, you have no idea what Andy (Drew) is asking about

Andy, what you have been shown to do to the bottom of your boat WILL NOT make it illigal to run in district-3

Don't think it would come into question in Atlanta either.

Really don't think it would come into question out in the Pacific North West as there was a MODIFIED Dumas run out there a few years ago. No one said a word

Wasn't trying to start a pissing contest Rick,

lord knows I hardly leave Brandon-(let alone make Atlanta-LOL)

**** I miss Tampa !!!!!

Just wanted to make sure I'm not on the f-me list if it ever gets to that point,

Lord knows I got enough hours of sanding clegicell layers already !!!!

But it's close....

Andy

 

[Tom Kelly]

Now this discussion is in the right direction. What if you took a little of what Roger said and added a little of what Don has said. To icurage a new scale boater, let them build his/her boat under the guidance of a mentor within their district. I'm sure that any of the expierenced scale guys would be glad to help someone new. Let the new person build their boat to the best of their abilities and race a season under "Rookie Status". Any errors or underthoughts could be explained to this person over the course of the rookie season and this new person would learn "on the job", so to speak. With all this new knowledge, I sure that the next boat that this person builds would be much improve.
Your thoughts?

Good points and ideas Tom

One serious problem we have to get over, and correct me if I'm wrong here, is exactly what this thread asks. "what is scale"??

To determine what is scale we have a master hull roster with dimensions and at best a few bad old photos of the real boat, usually sitting in the water (as the rules state it must) so there's no proof of what the bottom looks like. The only good documentation I've seen available, is for boats less than 15 years old. So when the rules start getting into things like belly pans, sponson shapes, and offsets, there needs to be some good photos available to prove what you built was accurate.

We can only be as accurate as the available documentation allows us to be. So until we can get Three views, good photos and other info EASILY accessable for the new and old guy to build from. I don't see how the rules could get any more demanding. And in my opinion some of the rules are too demanding for the documentation that is available.

gh

Greg

Here's the example I had in mind when I asked the question,"what is scale".

Let's say I build a 72 Norte Dame, a boat that most of us are familiar with. This boat has an inset transom, as did many of the early Jones style hulls. I build my my boat as close as I can get it using those same old photos and documentation that is available to everyone. During the season, I travel to as many races as wifey will allow, so I see a lot of different boats. I show up at a race and there is another 72 Norte Dame there, but he did not inset his transom. I feal that this is a performance advantage because he can run his strut farther back, allowing the prop better leverage to lift the transom.

Did he build it like that for this advantage?

Did he not know that the original boat was like that?

Would that make his boat "illegal"?

This is the basis of the thread.

 

[P THOMAS]

Mike,Are you refering to the opening behind the scoop? I have noticed that there are different rear cowl sections.

Which one would be correct.

?I think I attached pics.

If you build that boat to match the picture, it will be ok. Thats why it is best to get your pictures and information about the boat in order BEFORE building a boat.

 

[Greg Hahn]

Now this discussion is in the right direction. What if you took a little of what Roger said and added a little of what Don has said. To icurage a new scale boater, let them build his/her boat under the guidance of a mentor within their district. I'm sure that any of the expierenced scale guys would be glad to help someone new. Let the new person build their boat to the best of their abilities and race a season under "Rookie Status". Any errors or underthoughts could be explained to this person over the course of the rookie season and this new person would learn "on the job", so to speak. With all this new knowledge, I sure that the next boat that this person builds would be much improve.
Your thoughts?

Good points and ideas Tom

One serious problem we have to get over, and correct me if I'm wrong here, is exactly what this thread asks. "what is scale"??

To determine what is scale we have a master hull roster with dimensions and at best a few bad old photos of the real boat, usually sitting in the water (as the rules state it must) so there's no proof of what the bottom looks like. The only good documentation I've seen available, is for boats less than 15 years old. So when the rules start getting into things like belly pans, sponson shapes, and offsets, there needs to be some good photos available to prove what you built was accurate.

We can only be as accurate as the available documentation allows us to be. So until we can get Three views, good photos and other info EASILY accessable for the new and old guy to build from. I don't see how the rules could get any more demanding. And in my opinion some of the rules are too demanding for the documentation that is available.

gh

Greg

Here's the example I had in mind when I asked the question,"what is scale".

Let's say I build a 72 Norte Dame, a boat that most of us are familiar with. This boat has an inset transom, as did many of the early Jones style hulls. I build my my boat as close as I can get it using those same old photos and documentation that is available to everyone. During the season, I travel to as many races as wifey will allow, so I see a lot of different boats. I show up at a race and there is another 72 Norte Dame there, but he did not inset his transom. I feal that this is a performance advantage because he can run his strut farther back, allowing the prop better leverage to lift the transom.

Did he build it like that for this advantage?

Did he not know that the original boat was like that?

Would that make his boat "illegal"?

This is the basis of the thread.

Tom,

We have a master hull roster for the dimentionals, but the outline is always in question and will be until we come up with an accepted standard outline for all the different boats. Having or creating a set of accepted outline views is the most important part of defining what scale is.

In Model aircraft, part of the documentation process includes a three view drawing which is a basic outline in three different views. These three view drawings are available from several sources so they're easy to get for any one and even from different companies the all depict the same general outline. To eliminate the problems you are talking about would require this scenerio or something similar to it with our boats.

Roger Newton has taken the time and effort to draw plans for many or most of the unlimiteds in history, so, much of the work is already done. His plans are essentially a set of three view drawings to 1/8th scale with the blanks filled in.

The sanctioning bodies could accept Roger's drawings as accurate, then create a set of outline three views for each boat. Then you would have a set of standards that would eliminate the issues you're talking about. Then as the boats age and are re-built often they are changed, some a little some a lot. Then it would require photos of the actual boat to show the changes from the accepted three view to the boat you're doing. If you can't prove the change then don't do the change. The whole idea is PROVE what you DO.

The decision to be made here is: do we really want to get that picky or not? do we want to make this hobby require more effort and maybe take the chance of running some participants or newbies away? there's a lot to think about here. On the other hand, this type of required documentation could make Scale more attractive by eliminating many of the questions like the one's you have presented in turn making the class seem more fair.

Personally, I've been documenting scale aircraft subjects for 20+ years, down to the TYPE, NUMBER and size of rivets on the surface. Making sure the flight instruments read correctly even though you can't see them without a magnafying glass. So going to great lengths to make sure everything's correct is not an issue with me but I'm a minority for sure. It's a question of how far we want to go.

I will admit having accepted outlines would make many things much simpler than they are now.

I'm willing to help where ever.

gh

 

[Roger Hooks Jr.]

Mike,Are you refering to the opening behind the scoop? I have noticed that there are different rear cowl sections.

Which one would be correct.

?I think I attached pics.

If you build that boat to match the picture, it will be ok. Thats why it is best to get your pictures and information about the boat in order BEFORE building a boat.

My question here Phil would be who's pictures???

If a guy has a picture that makes his boat legal and somebody doesn't who is to say... and what can they say? Is a person to secure every picture in the world? Is it his fault if his research ability or resources isn't as good as someone else who is a historian? "I" ask this question because I painted a boat for Alfred for the Greeley Colorado nats a few years back and I tried to put all the detail in the boat possible. I was told that it would have won concourse but it was missing a vent on one side. Well I only had a picture of the boat on one side. I know we are not talking about concourse but different lighting changes the color of a boat and different angles of a camera can distort or hide significant lines on a boat.

Just another question to add to the mix.

 

[Don Ferrette]

I know we are not talking about concourse but different lighting changes the color of a boat and different angles of a camera can distort or hide significant lines on a boat.

Very true, just like there was not a red Winston Eagle lobster even though there are pics that make it look red. Back in the mid to late 80's there were only two film types (I actually verified this from 2 different unlimited photographers who shot pics back in that time period) that could accurately capture the correct fluorescent orange without making it look anything from burnt orange to red. Not to mention the color shade would actually change race to race because of how quickly that orange faded in the sun.

Another thing is with today's programs like Photoshop pics can easily be "edited". So where do you draw the line? :huh:

I mean with these huge cash prizes on the line what's a model boater to do? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[Joe Wiebelhaus]

Now this discussion is in the right direction. What if you took a little of what Roger said and added a little of what Don has said. To icurage a new scale boater, let them build his/her boat under the guidance of a mentor within their district. I'm sure that any of the expierenced scale guys would be glad to help someone new. Let the new person build their boat to the best of their abilities and race a season under "Rookie Status". Any errors or underthoughts could be explained to this person over the course of the rookie season and this new person would learn "on the job", so to speak. With all this new knowledge, I sure that the next boat that this person builds would be much improve.
Your thoughts?

Good points and ideas Tom

One serious problem we have to get over, and correct me if I'm wrong here, is exactly what this thread asks. "what is scale"??

To determine what is scale we have a master hull roster with dimensions and at best a few bad old photos of the real boat, usually sitting in the water (as the rules state it must) so there's no proof of what the bottom looks like. The only good documentation I've seen available, is for boats less than 15 years old. So when the rules start getting into things like belly pans, sponson shapes, and offsets, there needs to be some good photos available to prove what you built was accurate.

We can only be as accurate as the available documentation allows us to be. So until we can get Three views, good photos and other info EASILY accessable for the new and old guy to build from. I don't see how the rules could get any more demanding. And in my opinion some of the rules are too demanding for the documentation that is available.

gh

Greg

Here's the example I had in mind when I asked the question,"what is scale".

Let's say I build a 72 Norte Dame, a boat that most of us are familiar with. This boat has an inset transom, as did many of the early Jones style hulls. I build my my boat as close as I can get it using those same old photos and documentation that is available to everyone. During the season, I travel to as many races as wifey will allow, so I see a lot of different boats. I show up at a race and there is another 72 Norte Dame there, but he did not inset his transom. I feal that this is a performance advantage because he can run his strut farther back, allowing the prop better leverage to lift the transom.

Did he build it like that for this advantage?

Did he not know that the original boat was like that?

Would that make his boat "illegal"?

This is the basis of the thread.

This is a good start, and I'll add my 2 cents..............

Scale Unlimited should be as close as possible to the real boat, size, color, graphics, hull style, engine cover or fake Allison/Rolls.

I dont think gauges on a dash board or cockpit should be an issue (nice detail but not required) but a windshield and steering wheel should be.

Rub rail and rivets are nice detail, but not required.

Tow hook and lift hooks are nice detail, but not required.

On the other hand, a list of do's and donts may be handy.

Dont build a broken boat ! T-4 Miss Budweiser at the Madison w/o the horizontal wing, or the U-20 Captran Resort with an engine cover, (I have 40 pictures of that boat, 35 show it with the engine cover, but not one running on the water with it on.

This brings up another thing, Tom mentioned the 72 Notre Dame with the cut out transom, and if you follow that hulls history,

ONLY the Notre Dame had that transom cut out, as it turned into other owners/sponsors, the transom was "filled in" and it also ran with the engine cover, go figure (Hull 7207 Notre Dame,Miss Cotts Beverage, Miss Technicolor ect...) this gets complicated and confusing at times.

OR the "BOAT" without vertical or Horizontal wings...........

Would somebody really build the My Gypsy and graphic it as the Miss Budweiser as it ran ONE Heat in 1979 ? Or the Tempus as Miss Bud in 87, or the Sutphen Spirit as the Bud in 88 ???? I hope not, thats NOT the intent of the sport as model boat builders (I think) or how about the 88 Circus with Miller wings on it.

As IMPBA District II director for 17 years, I shot for the 90% logic, you had to have the basics first, but the extra detail was up to the owner.

So..... what we need is a writter to compile a whole bunch of ideas, submitt them to our IMPBA and NAMBA, RCU directors, and just lessen the gray areas.

Example, IMPBA dosent even mention the "Master Hull Roster" in its rules, so how or why should anybody abide by them ?

Write it down, show examples ect (and this hand book dosent even need to be part of the rule book, It's a National Director and District Director empowerment)

We dont need to scare anyone away, but in todays world, with the Internet, e-mail, pictures,drivers, engines,paint , graphics, our knowledge base is too simple to access and use for the old timer or the rookie.

I like a good solid attempt to build a model to look like the real boat. period. B)

 

[Greg Hahn]

Mike,Are you refering to the opening behind the scoop? I have noticed that there are different rear cowl sections.

Which one would be correct.

?I think I attached pics.

If you build that boat to match the picture, it will be ok. Thats why it is best to get your pictures and information about the boat in order BEFORE building a boat.

My question here Phil would be who's pictures???

If a guy has a picture that makes his boat legal and somebody doesn't who is to say... and what can they say? Is a person to secure every picture in the world? Is it his fault if his research ability or resources isn't as good as someone else who is a historian? "I" ask this question because I painted a boat for Alfred for the Greeley Colorado nats a few years back and I tried to put all the detail in the boat possible. I was told that it would have won concourse but it was missing a vent on one side. Well I only had a picture of the boat on one side. I know we are not talking about concourse but different lighting changes the color of a boat and different angles of a camera can distort or hide significant lines on a boat.

Just another question to add to the mix.

Roger, I totally understand your plight. That's a judging issue, the judges should be required to only use the documentation (photo or photos) provided. If no photo is provided for the other side, they can't deduct for that side. In aircraft we only have to prove one side.

You did bring up an interesting situation though, in all other "Scale" competition there is the "builder of the model rule". Not taking anything away from yourself, from what I've seen you're quite a craftsman and I envy your paint work, it's beautiful! But you painted a boat for someone else to win concourse with. In most "concourse" or "static" type model competition the owner must be able to prove he did the work.

just thoughts and insights.

gh

 

[Greg Hahn]

I know we are not talking about concourse but different lighting changes the color of a boat and different angles of a camera can distort or hide significant lines on a boat.

Very true, just like there was not a red Winston Eagle lobster even though there are pics that make it look red. Back in the mid to late 80's there were only two film types (I actually verified this from 2 different unlimited photographers who shot pics back in that time period) that could accurately capture the correct fluorescent orange without making it look anything from burnt orange to red. Not to mention the color shade would actually change race to race because of how quickly that orange faded in the sun.

Another thing is with today's programs like Photoshop pics can easily be "edited". So where do you draw the line? :huh:

I mean with these huge cash prizes on the line what's a model boater to do? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Good reality check Don big money yea!! just think we don't even get tow money

 

[SayMikey]

Mike,Are you refering to the opening behind the scoop? I have noticed that there are different rear cowl sections.

Which one would be correct.

?I think I attached pics.

If you build that boat to match the picture, it will be ok. Thats why it is best to get your pictures and information about the boat in order BEFORE building a boat.

My question here Phil would be who's pictures???

If a guy has a picture that makes his boat legal and somebody doesn't who is to say... and what can they say? Is a person to secure every picture in the world? Is it his fault if his research ability or resources isn't as good as someone else who is a historian? "I" ask this question because I painted a boat for Alfred for the Greeley Colorado nats a few years back and I tried to put all the detail in the boat possible. I was told that it would have won concourse but it was missing a vent on one side. Well I only had a picture of the boat on one side. I know we are not talking about concourse but different lighting changes the color of a boat and different angles of a camera can distort or hide significant lines on a boat.

Just another question to add to the mix.

Roger, I totally understand your plight. That's a judging issue, the judges should be required to only use the documentation (photo or photos) provided. If no photo is provided for the other side, they can't deduct for that side. In aircraft we only have to prove one side.

You did bring up an interesting situation though, in all other "Scale" competition there is the "builder of the model rule". Not taking anything away from yourself, from what I've seen you're quite a craftsman and I envy your paint work, it's beautiful! But you painted a boat for someone else to win concourse with. In most "concourse" or "static" type model competition the owner must be able to prove he did the work.

just thoughts and insights.

gh

Not sure i agree with who painted it,these days i can pay to have it done cheaper than do it myself. Joe>Would somebody really build the My Gypsy and graphic it as the Miss Budweiser as it ran ONE Heat in 1979 ? Or the Tempus as Miss Bud in 87, or the Sutphen Spirit as the Bud in 88 ???? I hope not, thats NOT the intent of the sport as model boat builders. < I like the one off boats too many Red buds dont cut it. I like something no one else around me has. Until Recently "The Gypsy" was a boat few had seen, now they are poping out everywhere. I know but its just my opinion. Are we doing Scale Unlimited or STAND OFF SCALE? See you in turn one......Mike

 

[Greg Hahn]

Mike, and all,

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for let's go racin, I don't think it's broke to begin with, could use a little defining or refining maybe. The big draw for me is Scale boating doesn't require all the pressure of perfect static and all that stuff. Leave it up to the boater to add what he wants and leave the rest, that's what's great.

I'm just putting out some circumstanses as to how it's done in other competitions, I'm not advocating that we do any of it. Just food for thought.

gh

 

[Douglas P Shepherd]

Now this discussion is in the right direction. What if you took a little of what Roger said and added a little of what Don has said. To icurage a new scale boater, let them build his/her boat under the guidance of a mentor within their district. I'm sure that any of the expierenced scale guys would be glad to help someone new. Let the new person build their boat to the best of their abilities and race a season under "Rookie Status". Any errors or underthoughts could be explained to this person over the course of the rookie season and this new person would learn "on the job", so to speak. With all this new knowledge, I sure that the next boat that this person builds would be much improve.
Your thoughts?

Good points and ideas Tom

One serious problem we have to get over, and correct me if I'm wrong here, is exactly what this thread asks. "what is scale"??

To determine what is scale we have a master hull roster with dimensions and at best a few bad old photos of the real boat, usually sitting in the water (as the rules state it must) so there's no proof of what the bottom looks like. The only good documentation I've seen available, is for boats less than 15 years old. So when the rules start getting into things like belly pans, sponson shapes, and offsets, there needs to be some good photos available to prove what you built was accurate.

We can only be as accurate as the available documentation allows us to be. So until we can get Three views, good photos and other info EASILY accessable for the new and old guy to build from. I don't see how the rules could get any more demanding. And in my opinion some of the rules are too demanding for the documentation that is available.

gh

Greg

Here's the example I had in mind when I asked the question,"what is scale".

Let's say I build a 72 Norte Dame, a boat that most of us are familiar with. This boat has an inset transom, as did many of the early Jones style hulls. I build my my boat as close as I can get it using those same old photos and documentation that is available to everyone. During the season, I travel to as many races as wifey will allow, so I see a lot of different boats. I show up at a race and there is another 72 Norte Dame there, but he did not inset his transom. I feal that this is a performance advantage because he can run his strut farther back, allowing the prop better leverage to lift the transom.

Did he build it like that for this advantage?

Did he not know that the original boat was like that?

Would that make his boat "illegal"?

This is the basis of the thread.

This is a good start, and I'll add my 2 cents..............

Scale Unlimited should be as close as possible to the real boat, size, color, graphics, hull style, engine cover or fake Allison/Rolls.

I dont think gauges on a dash board or cockpit should be an issue (nice detail but not required) but a windshield and steering wheel should be.

Rub rail and rivets are nice detail, but not required.

Tow hook and lift hooks are nice detail, but not required.

On the other hand, a list of do's and donts may be handy.

Dont build a broken boat ! T-4 Miss Budweiser at the Madison w/o the horizontal wing, or the U-20 Captran Resort with an engine cover, (I have 40 pictures of that boat, 35 show it with the engine cover, but not one running on the water with it on.

This brings up another thing, Tom mentioned the 72 Notre Dame with the cut out transom, and if you follow that hulls history,

ONLY the Notre Dame had that transom cut out, as it turned into other owners/sponsors, the transom was "filled in" and it also ran with the engine cover, go figure (Hull 7207 Notre Dame,Miss Cotts Beverage, Miss Technicolor ect...) this gets complicated and confusing at times.

OR the "BOAT" without vertical or Horizontal wings...........

Would somebody really build the My Gypsy and graphic it as the Miss Budweiser as it ran ONE Heat in 1979 ? Or the Tempus as Miss Bud in 87, or the Sutphen Spirit as the Bud in 88 ???? I hope not, thats NOT the intent of the sport as model boat builders (I think) or how about the 88 Circus with Miller wings on it.

As IMPBA District II director for 17 years, I shot for the 90% logic, you had to have the basics first, but the extra detail was up to the owner.

So..... what we need is a writter to compile a whole bunch of ideas, submitt them to our IMPBA and NAMBA, RCU directors, and just lessen the gray areas.

Example, IMPBA dosent even mention the "Master Hull Roster" in its rules, so how or why should anybody abide by them ?

Write it down, show examples ect (and this hand book dosent even need to be part of the rule book, It's a National Director and District Director empowerment)

We dont need to scare anyone away, but in todays world, with the Internet, e-mail, pictures,drivers, engines,paint , graphics, our knowledge base is too simple to access and use for the old timer or the rookie.

I like a good solid attempt to build a model to look like the real boat. period. B)

Joe,you are 110% correct with your statement here!! Doug Shepherd

 

[Don Ferrette]

Example, IMPBA dosent even mention the "Master Hull Roster" in its rules, so how or why should anybody abide by them ?

That is no longer correct as that is a part I re-wrote (among other changes) in the new scale rules that were published multiple times in previous Roostertails and were 1 year trial for 2007-1. All models must be of a real unlimited hydroplane as listed in the APBA Master Hull Roster list.

The model owner must show the real boat attempted to qualify, qualified or raced in an actual

sanctioned racing event, in the configuration being modeled, via photographic and/or written

documentation. Failure to adequately meet the validation requirements can result in the model

not being allowed to compete in an IMPBA event until proper documentation is obtained.

You did bring up an interesting situation though, in all other "Scale" competition there is the "builder of the model rule". Not taking anything away from yourself, from what I've seen you're quite a craftsman and I envy your paint work, it's beautiful! But you painted a boat for someone else to win concourse with. In most "concourse" or "static" type model competition the owner must be able to prove he did the work.

This has always been a part of 1/8 scale that kinda rubs me the wrong way. I'd like to see something like this or at least a significant point deduction during Concours judging for not being the builder/painter but I certainly won't hold my breath on that one.....

 

[Roger Hooks Jr.]

Mike,Are you refering to the opening behind the scoop? I have noticed that there are different rear cowl sections.

Which one would be correct.

?I think I attached pics.

If you build that boat to match the picture, it will be ok. Thats why it is best to get your pictures and information about the boat in order BEFORE building a boat.

My question here Phil would be who's pictures???

If a guy has a picture that makes his boat legal and somebody doesn't who is to say... and what can they say? Is a person to secure every picture in the world? Is it his fault if his research ability or resources isn't as good as someone else who is a historian? "I" ask this question because I painted a boat for Alfred for the Greeley Colorado nats a few years back and I tried to put all the detail in the boat possible. I was told that it would have won concourse but it was missing a vent on one side. Well I only had a picture of the boat on one side. I know we are not talking about concourse but different lighting changes the color of a boat and different angles of a camera can distort or hide significant lines on a boat.

Just another question to add to the mix.

Roger, I totally understand your plight. That's a judging issue, the judges should be required to only use the documentation (photo or photos) provided. If no photo is provided for the other side, they can't deduct for that side. In aircraft we only have to prove one side.

You did bring up an interesting situation though, in all other "Scale" competition there is the "builder of the model rule". Not taking anything away from yourself, from what I've seen you're quite a craftsman and I envy your paint work, it's beautiful! But you painted a boat for someone else to win concourse with. In most "concourse" or "static" type model competition the owner must be able to prove he did the work.

just thoughts and insights.

gh

It was just our luck from what I understand. The boat was the Chisel Nose Kawaguchi Special and the person asked to judge was Ira Cotton, the guy that designed the R/C model Chisel nose so of course he would know what the boat looked like all the around, upside down inside and out. LOL! Maybe I should have called him to verify. LOL!

But... the point wasn't my situation

It is situations like that where the right to run or boat or not could be put in question rather than a Blue Pig Ribbon...

And for all of those Scale Boats out there that I painted that won concourses... kindly send those trophies to me please. LOL! I am sure Bob Rendon in District 9 would want his, and Gary Johnson would want his... rest his soul.... and anyone else out there painting scale boats for other people. :lol:

If you want proof that you did the paint job yourself, along with the paint job that I do for you, I will be happy to snap a photo of you with my airbrush in your hand but that will cost you double :lol:

 

[Douglas P Shepherd]

Mike,Are you refering to the opening behind the scoop? I have noticed that there are different rear cowl sections.

Which one would be correct.

?I think I attached pics.

If you build that boat to match the picture, it will be ok. Thats why it is best to get your pictures and information about the boat in order BEFORE building a boat.

My question here Phil would be who's pictures???

If a guy has a picture that makes his boat legal and somebody doesn't who is to say... and what can they say? Is a person to secure every picture in the world? Is it his fault if his research ability or resources isn't as good as someone else who is a historian? "I" ask this question because I painted a boat for Alfred for the Greeley Colorado nats a few years back and I tried to put all the detail in the boat possible. I was told that it would have won concourse but it was missing a vent on one side. Well I only had a picture of the boat on one side. I know we are not talking about concourse but different lighting changes the color of a boat and different angles of a camera can distort or hide significant lines on a boat.

Just another question to add to the mix.

Roger, I totally understand your plight. That's a judging issue, the judges should be required to only use the documentation (photo or photos) provided. If no photo is provided for the other side, they can't deduct for that side. In aircraft we only have to prove one side.

You did bring up an interesting situation though, in all other "Scale" competition there is the "builder of the model rule". Not taking anything away from yourself, from what I've seen you're quite a craftsman and I envy your paint work, it's beautiful! But you painted a boat for someone else to win concourse with. In most "concourse" or "static" type model competition the owner must be able to prove he did the work.

just thoughts and insights.

gh

It was just our luck from what I understand. The boat was the Chisel Nose Kawaguchi Special and the person asked to judge was Ira Cotton, the guy that designed the R/C model Chisel nose so of course he would know what the boat looked like all the around, upside down inside and out. LOL! Maybe I should have called him to verify. LOL!

But... the point wasn't my situation

It is situations like that where the right to run or boat or not could be put in question rather than a Blue Pig Ribbon...

And for all of those Scale Boats out there that I painted that won concourses... kindly send those trophies to me please. LOL! I am sure Bob Rendon in District 9 would want his, and Gary Johnson would want his... rest his soul.... and anyone else out there painting scale boats for other people. :lol:

If you want proof that you did the paint job yourself, along with the paint job that I do for you, I will be happy to snap a photo of you with my airbrush in your hand but that will cost you double :lol:

1. All models must be of a real unlimited hydroplanes as listed in the APBA Master Hull Roster list.

The model owner must show the real boat attempted to qualify, qualified or raced in an actual

sanctioned racing event, in the configuration being modeled, via photographic and/or written

documentation. Failure to adequately meet the validation requirements can result in the model

not being allowed to compete in an IMPBA event until proper documentation is obtained.

Don, Was this statement ment under the IMPBA rules. For the Name of the Unlimited and measurements and or just the name of the unlimited hydro with master hull number?

 

[SayMikey]

Now this discussion is in the right direction. What if you took a little of what Roger said and added a little of what Don has said. To icurage a new scale boater, let them build his/her boat under the guidance of a mentor within their district. I'm sure that any of the expierenced scale guys would be glad to help someone new. Let the new person build their boat to the best of their abilities and race a season under "Rookie Status". Any errors or underthoughts could be explained to this person over the course of the rookie season and this new person would learn "on the job", so to speak. With all this new knowledge, I sure that the next boat that this person builds would be much improve.
Your thoughts?

Good points and ideas Tom

One serious problem we have to get over, and correct me if I'm wrong here, is exactly what this thread asks. "what is scale"??

To determine what is scale we have a master hull roster with dimensions and at best a few bad old photos of the real boat, usually sitting in the water (as the rules state it must) so there's no proof of what the bottom looks like. The only good documentation I've seen available, is for boats less than 15 years old. So when the rules start getting into things like belly pans, sponson shapes, and offsets, there needs to be some good photos available to prove what you built was accurate.

We can only be as accurate as the available documentation allows us to be. So until we can get Three views, good photos and other info EASILY accessable for the new and old guy to build from. I don't see how the rules could get any more demanding. And in my opinion some of the rules are too demanding for the documentation that is available.

gh

Greg

Here's the example I had in mind when I asked the question,"what is scale".

Let's say I build a 72 Norte Dame, a boat that most of us are familiar with. This boat has an inset transom, as did many of the early Jones style hulls. I build my my boat as close as I can get it using those same old photos and documentation that is available to everyone. During the season, I travel to as many races as wifey will allow, so I see a lot of different boats. I show up at a race and there is another 72 Norte Dame there, but he did not inset his transom. I feal that this is a performance advantage because he can run his strut farther back, allowing the prop better leverage to lift the transom.

Did he build it like that for this advantage?

Did he not know that the original boat was like that?

Would that make his boat "illegal"?

This is the basis of the thread.

This is a good start, and I'll add my 2 cents..............

Scale Unlimited should be as close as possible to the real boat, size, color, graphics, hull style, engine cover or fake Allison/Rolls.

I dont think gauges on a dash board or cockpit should be an issue (nice detail but not required) but a windshield and steering wheel should be.

Rub rail and rivets are nice detail, but not required.

Tow hook and lift hooks are nice detail, but not required.

On the other hand, a list of do's and donts may be handy.

Dont build a broken boat ! T-4 Miss Budweiser at the Madison w/o the horizontal wing, or the U-20 Captran Resort with an engine cover, (I have 40 pictures of that boat, 35 show it with the engine cover, but not one running on the water with it on.

This brings up another thing, Tom mentioned the 72 Notre Dame with the cut out transom, and if you follow that hulls history,

ONLY the Notre Dame had that transom cut out, as it turned into other owners/sponsors, the transom was "filled in" and it also ran with the engine cover, go figure (Hull 7207 Notre Dame,Miss Cotts Beverage, Miss Technicolor ect...) this gets complicated and confusing at times.

OR the "BOAT" without vertical or Horizontal wings...........

Would somebody really build the My Gypsy and graphic it as the Miss Budweiser as it ran ONE Heat in 1979 ? Or the Tempus as Miss Bud in 87, or the Sutphen Spirit as the Bud in 88 ???? I hope not, thats NOT the intent of the sport as model boat builders (I think) or how about the 88 Circus with Miller wings on it.

As IMPBA District II director for 17 years, I shot for the 90% logic, you had to have the basics first, but the extra detail was up to the owner.

So..... what we need is a writter to compile a whole bunch of ideas, submitt them to our IMPBA and NAMBA, RCU directors, and just lessen the gray areas.

Example, IMPBA dosent even mention the "Master Hull Roster" in its rules, so how or why should anybody abide by them ?

Write it down, show examples ect (and this hand book dosent even need to be part of the rule book, It's a National Director and District Director empowerment)

We dont need to scare anyone away, but in todays world, with the Internet, e-mail, pictures,drivers, engines,paint , graphics, our knowledge base is too simple to access and use for the old timer or the rookie.

I like a good solid attempt to build a model to look like the real boat. period. B)

Joe,you are 110% correct with your statement here!! Doug Shepherd

Joe i think you have it very close,but the police should be the district scale director. Some Districts dont even issue scale cards. One of the problems that plague us is the fact that new boaters relate to these boats and some wish to start with one. Until someone has taken the time to research the needed information and build the boat as a replica they have no idea how many man hours its takes before you even smell fresh paint...... Here in D-14 i have not seen much in the way of shotty boats........

 

[Mike McKnight]

Mike once again you touch on what I brought up earlier about the District Scale Chairman being the first line of enforcement. But what if that DSC allows something in that district that is not necessarily legal by the national rule book? One problem we have in NAMBA is that individual districts have been allowed to pretty much do their own thing and not all conform to what is already in black and white. I'm not talking about paint or detail either I'm talking about structural and mechanical issues that are clearly covered. Oh wait then there was a boat that was allowed to run at a nationals with lead weights taped right on top of the sponson. Since he was allowed to run that way in his district he was allowed, under protest by me mind you, to run classifying it as a concourse issue. If there is a master set of rules for ALL to follow with very little wiggle room on the bare minimum requirements for the class then the enforcement should be much more simple at all levels.

 

[SayMikey]

Mike once again you touch on what I brought up earlier about the District Scale Chairman being the first line of enforcement. But what if that DSC allows something in that district that is not necessarily legal by the national rule book? One problem we have in NAMBA is that individual districts have been allowed to pretty much do their own thing and not all conform to what is already in black and white. I'm not talking about paint or detail either I'm talking about structural and mechanical issues that are clearly covered. Oh wait then there was a boat that was allowed to run at a nationals with lead weights taped right on top of the sponson. Since he was allowed to run that way in his district he was allowed, under protest by me mind you, to run classifying it as a concourse issue. If there is a master set of rules for ALL to follow with very little wiggle room on the bare minimum requirements for the class then the enforcement should be much more simple at all levels.

Mike I understand NAMBA's take on letting Districts do there own thing.I see good things and bad things about that. But in most cases good things. National Events are a whole new ball game and id think if you want to attend a NATS you better be right with the RULE BOOK. We in District 14 Impba try to be sure everyone is playing out of the rule book. And ive not seen concerns,its when you cross the district boundry thats when a problem occurs. I packed my boat and sent it to Seattle 2 years ago looking to be scroutinized but found i was at home with the guys out there. Maybe a comittee could be formed to help police the issue of illegal or boats not IN THE SPIRIT of the class. Those 3 words mean more than any rule

 

[Andy Greene]

Sport 60 is sounding better and better every day from a non-builders point of view....

If its mechanical and broken , I can usually fix it- but DONT ask me to build something

Anybody else in D3 wanna put 2 together so we can make class in "poor man's scale" -LOL

Andy