How "Scale" is Scale

[Tom Kelly]

There has been ongoing discusion over the years as to what makes a hull legal in 1/8 Scale class. I realize that there are different rules for each of the sactioning bodies (IMPBA and NAMBA), but at what point does a hull become "illegal"?

IMPBA rules consist of a length and beam tolerance, paint scheme, driver, ect...... and as of lately, the maser hull roster. All of which are really good rules. However, there are a lot of grey areas.

Let's say I'm making an older boat that I really think is cool looking. The boat no longer exists and the only thing you have to go off of are old photographs or maybe Newton plans. There were no paint codes back then, and the colors are up to interpretation of old, faded, photographs. So, you go on I.W. and ask if anyone knows. Nine times out of ten, you will get an answer as close as anything to being acurate. I paint my boat and get it registered in my district, then someone complains that it's the wrong color. Who is right?

For another example, I do all my homework and research building my new scale. I get all the photos available, talk to all the people that have knowlege of the boat, I even track down the person that owns the boat and talk to them. Next, I get my Newton plans and build it as close as I can to the plans. I get my boat finished to the best of my ability, feeling that it's as acurate as possible. Then you go to the races and see boats that are of the similar hull, and notice that there are differences in the shape of the decks, spars, bow block, ect.... Is one boat legal and the other one illegal because there are differences? Are Newton plans the standard of acuracy?

Let's say the shape of the boat doesn't matter, as long as the length and the beam fit in the tolerance from the master hull roster. I could take a Phil Thomas Budweiser hull and paint it like any modern turbine boat. Would this be legal?

At what point does a hull become "Illegal"?

What are your thoughts on this subject?

 

[SayMikey]

There has been ongoing discusion over the years as to what makes a hull legal in 1/8 Scale class. I realize that there are different rules for each of the sactioning bodies (IMPBA and NAMBA), but at what point does a hull become "illegal"?
IMPBA rules consist of a length and beam tolerance, paint scheme, driver, ect...... and as of lately, the maser hull roster. All of which are really good rules. However, there are a lot of grey areas.

Let's say I'm making an older boat that I really think is cool looking. The boat no longer exists and the only thing you have to go off of are old photographs or maybe Newton plans. There were no paint codes back then, and the colors are up to interpretation of old, faded, photographs. So, you go on I.W. and ask if anyone knows. Nine times out of ten, you will get an answer as close as anything to being acurate. I paint my boat and get it registered in my district, then someone complains that it's the wrong color. Who is right?

For another example, I do all my homework and research building my new scale. I get all the photos available, talk to all the people that have knowlege of the boat, I even track down the person that owns the boat and talk to them. Next, I get my Newton plans and build it as close as I can to the plans. I get my boat finished to the best of my ability, feeling that it's as acurate as possible. Then you go to the races and see boats that are of the similar hull, and notice that there are differences in the shape of the decks, spars, bow block, ect.... Is one boat legal and the other one illegal because there are differences? Are Newton plans the standard of acuracy?

Let's say the shape of the boat doesn't matter, as long as the length and the beam fit in the tolerance from the master hull roster. I could take a Phil Thomas Budweiser hull and paint it like any modern turbine boat. Would this be legal?

At what point does a hull become "Illegal"?

What are your thoughts on this subject?

Id say its at the point when the c/d taps you on the shoulder and says i need proof of you hull and documentation. If you build a offset cockpit boat and the orginal is centered your likely to get caught. The mhr has many good points but pics tell a lot also. Some boats only have black and white photos and other have hard graffics that may be hard to get right eg 69 Pak. Whats on the front cowl? A lot is up to the district scale director,but if you go to a national event or one outside of yours be prepared to prove you built it as close to specs as you could. The only place ive seen measurements taken is at the Evansville Nats events,Brian Schymik with MHR in hand checked them all. He even questioned my RedMan till i showed hime the right MHR number Mike

 

[P THOMAS]

HA You must be thinking too much? cabin fever setting in?

The correct size of the hull and configuration would be important.

If you want to be exact scale you can get the documents together info and pictures of what you are going to build, THEN build the boat.

Too many guys want to take a boat they have and make into something else.

You can make one of my T5 hulls into many boats cause it looks like most of the hulls, but you should take care to add scale details like different shape nose or rear sponson shoes.

IMPBA isnot as demanding as other org. or clubs, but it is scale hydro class.

Anything like missed details or color being off would take away from scale juging points but not make the boat illegal if the size is correct and the configuration is correct.

PHIL T

 

[Tom Kelly]

"Too many guys want to take a boat they have and make into something else."

That's the answer to some of my questions, Phil. Sorry to use your name on this post, but it was an example. And I think your right about the cabin fever.

I realize that everyone has different abilities and that they will try to the best of there abilities to make it correct. I don't want to discourage anyone from the class or turn someone away from a race who tried their best. But, then you see people who know better, or should know better if they did their research, that try to get around the rules.

Am I being too picky?

Do I need to make things as close as I can, or just enough to make it "legal".

I think we need some more Brian Schymiks' around!

Here's another example. Let's say I was going to make a new set of molds for a roundnose hull. I would want to be able to make as many different hulls from these molds as possible. If I stretched the tolerance of one hull to the max to make it in tolerance for another hull, would that be legal? When you stretch it one way, it changes the shape and ratio to the other way. Do you see what I mean?

 

[Mike Cathey]

When building a scale boat I always refer to the dimensions in the Master Hull Roster. I use the one on RCU's website. This gives me the dimensions for length, width, afterplane length, picklefork depth, transom width, tunnel width ect. The roster will give you the largest and smallest dimensions that will be legal. As long as I am within those perameters I'm legal. Most people that build successful hulls construct a boat that is as short, wide and thin as the rules allow. Keep in mind that most of Roger's plans were on the large size of the spectrum. His thinking was that a larger boat would handle rough water better. The break in the bottom was as steep as the real boat and with the power the motors make these days you will really be packing a lot of air under the boat and may end up using airdams and so on to keep it from blowing over. Most good working hulls have the bow block lowered and a flatter bottom.

As far as paint goes on the older hulls, you would have to be pretty anal to disallow a slight varience in colors. Depending on what kind of film was used, every photo can look a little different.

I asked Billy Schumacher at the UNW banquet a few years ago if he thought my Checkerboard looked like the right color he said that he thought it was pretty close, but that it was a long time ago. So who would I ask next if it was the right color????

 

[Douglas P Shepherd]

When building a scale boat I always refer to the dimensions in the Master Hull Roster. I use the one on RCU's website. This gives me the dimensions for length, width, afterplane length, picklefork depth, transom width, tunnel width ect. The roster will give you the largest and smallest dimensions that will be legal. As long as I am within those perameters I'm legal. Most people that build successful hulls construct a boat that is as short, wide and thin as the rules allow. Keep in mind that most of Roger's plans were on the large size of the spectrum. His thinking was that a larger boat would handle rough water better. The break in the bottom was as steep as the real boat and with the power the motors make these days you will really be packing a lot of air under the boat and may end up using airdams and so on to keep it from blowing over. Most good working hulls have the bow block lowered and a flatter bottom.
As far as paint goes on the older hulls, you would have to be pretty anal to disallow a slight varience in colors. Depending on what kind of film was used, every photo can look a little different.

I asked Billy Schumacher at the UNW banquet a few years ago if he thought my Checkerboard looked like the right color he said that he thought it was pretty close, but that it was a long time ago. So who would I ask next if it was the right color????

All 1/8 scale RACING MODEL boats should be built off the master list and all dimentions should match there model dimensions. It should be up to the district director or national scale director to insure it is RIGHT and say it is legal or not. IMPBA, NAMBA and APBA should all have the same model dimentions and should all be on the same page. My two cents Doug Shepherd

 

[Wesleys Custom Graphics]

If I were a judge (and I'm not) I would only be concerned as to wether or not the owner kept within the spirit or intent of scale. Or is he trying to scate the rules to gain an unfair advantage. I have seen too many people go so crazy trying to keep it scale that they never finish their project only kuz they can't find the right pic or measurement and to me that is wrong!!! Get it close and lets race em! I for one would rather race 10 boats that are close than be out there by myself.

just my opinion

 

[Douglas P Shepherd]

If I were a judge (and I'm not) I would only be concerned as to wether or not the owner kept within the spirit or intent of scale. Or is he trying to scate the rules to gain an unfair advantage. I have seen too many people go so crazy trying to keep it scale that they never finish their project only kuz they can't find the right pic or measurement and to me that is wrong!!! Get it close and lets race em! I for one would rather race 10 boats that are close than be out there by myself.

just my opinion

I think this is were Tom is trying to take this. Were is scale and were is the unfair advantage start and stop? This is were the master list stops the Word unfair.

 

[shann harrison]

In a nut shell the scale rules need much overhaul.To clear alot of grey areas and iron out problems like this and others as well.everyone in volved need to be on the same page.8-9 years that I've ran scale this has been an issue for way to long.....And as well as some events why be so different from district to district???I'm stating to some conversations that I have heard from time to time and this was brought up by people that have ran scale for a long time like 25+ years..My two cents worth..shann

 

[Don Ferrette]

If I were a judge (and I'm not) I would only be concerned as to wether or not the owner kept within the spirit or intent of scale. Or is he trying to skate the rules to gain an unfair advantage. I have seen too many people go so crazy trying to keep it scale that they never finish their project only kuz they can't find the right pic or measurement and to me that is wrong!!! Get it close and lets race em! I for one would rather race 10 boats that are close than be out there by myself.

just my opinion

Amen brutha Wes. B)

Anyone who knows me well knows how anal I get when I do up a new 1/8th scale. I pride myself in trying to duplicate the real boat as closely as possible but even I know when to to say when (although some will argue that part ) To me it becomes obvious rather quickly the ones who are trying to "pull a fast one" vs. the ones who are doing the best they can do with what they have. Tape measures? Well maybe but only to a point. If someone has taken the time to build a really nice boat but maybe missed a number by a 1/2" or so I'm not sending him home. Even the one man who did more for 1/8th scale racing, the Czar himself (R.I.P. Roger), had plans that were not perfect. How about the Dumas boat kits that brought so many to the ranks of scale, all three of those kits- the Atlas, the Miller American (my first scale) and the Circus are not "correct". I'm more concerned with things like the guys whose had nitro motors almost totally exposed rather than covered by the dummy motor or cowl saying "well that's my effort just like the rule says" (that's why that part of the IMPBA scale rules went bye-bye) or stacks of lead stick on weights on top of the sponsons that look like crap (hmmm, I don't recall any real unlimiteds using steel beams for ballast). And using color chips?? Hey if it's real close let it run, many of these boat colors would change a shade or two after repairs and changes during a single season. One of my personal favorites the Winston Eagle would change in color hue during a single race weekend due to how fluorescent orange fades in the sun. Yes we scale buffs want the boats to look as real as we can get them but sometimes for the best interest of the class you need to know when to say no and when say close enough. The IMPBA scale rules just went though a good sized clean up but there are still a number of folks who don't realize that even happened or choose to play ignorant. Not to mention a good start would be to enforce the scale rules that are already in place, been to many a race over the years where that just does not happen. Bottom line is sure you want to tighten it up but you don't want to kill it either.

 

[Ray Sametz]

Couple of questions, on the boat I'm building the RCU MHR has the depth at 2'-3" plus 10% = 3.7125 inches. The Newton Plans have the depth of 4.125 inches. So technically speaking the hull is illegal. Also the APL is 17' on Namba MHR and 19' on the RCU MHR. APL works for RCU but would be too long in Namba????? What to do????? B) B)

 

[SayMikey]

Couple of questions, on the boat I'm building the RCU MHR has the depth at 2'-3" plus 10% = 3.7125 inches. The Newton Plans have the depth of 4.125 inches. So technically speaking the hull is illegal. Also the APL is 17' on Namba MHR and 19' on the RCU MHR. APL works for RCU but would be too long in Namba????? What to do????? B) B)

Use the RCU your IMPBA, I would not care about APL as long as it dont look wrong build it. At the nats we measured length and width not depth or apl. Besides your building something freaky anyway Love you Ray Bob......Mikey

 

[Ray Sametz]

Couple of questions, on the boat I'm building the RCU MHR has the depth at 2'-3" plus 10% = 3.7125 inches. The Newton Plans have the depth of 4.125 inches. So technically speaking the hull is illegal. Also the APL is 17' on Namba MHR and 19' on the RCU MHR. APL works for RCU but would be too long in Namba????? What to do????? B) B)

Use the RCU your IMPBA, I would not care about APL as long as it dont look wrong build it. At the nats we measured length and width not depth or apl. Besides your building something freaky anyway Love you Ray Bob......Mikey

Thats me freaky, got some pink in it too Oh, did'nt you sell pinky. :lol: :lol:

 

[P THOMAS]

Couple of questions, on the boat I'm building the RCU MHR has the depth at 2'-3" plus 10% = 3.7125 inches. The Newton Plans have the depth of 4.125 inches. So technically speaking the hull is illegal. Also the APL is 17' on Namba MHR and 19' on the RCU MHR. APL works for RCU but would be too long in Namba????? What to do????? B) B)

What is the depth measurement? How do you measure it? and where?

 

[Roy Munoz]

And I though that I was the only one haveing this problem..I built the 1947 Peps V..The real one was only 25 feet long .Mine is 42 in long..That makes it longer than it should be but I was told that it was too short..There also no mesurments in the master hull roster for this hull..

 

[Hydro Junkie]

Couple of questions, on the boat I'm building the RCU MHR has the depth at 2'-3" plus 10% = 3.7125 inches. The Newton Plans have the depth of 4.125 inches. So technically speaking the hull is illegal. Also the APL is 17' on Namba MHR and 19' on the RCU MHR. APL works for RCU but would be too long in Namba????? What to do????? B) B)

What is the depth measurement? How do you measure it? and where?

Depth is measured from the lowest point of the rear part of the hull bottom to the deck level at the sponson transom at the highest point on the deck, measured vertically.

 

[Bert Dygert]

Hydro Junkie,

Would you include the rear shoes in the depth dimension?

I think the overall width and length are important. Also the hull shape has to plays a part of it. Otherwise you could take a Bud T-4 fill in the holes between the primary and secondary wing and call it a T-6 without change the rear end of the boat. Both hulls have certain deck, non trip designs and trailing edge designs that make those boats unque and should be included in the hull construction.

I my self believe that we should get the hull length, width ( within the MHR), Color, and shape ( center section offset included) as close as possible and let's go race model boats. The idea like it has been mention, is to grow the scale ranks and not kill it. There will always be some people push the window to there advantage and it's up to the district scale directors and National scale director to keep them in check. That's why they are in the positions there in.

Also keep in mind that the scale directors have an impossible job. Because it's impossible for them to know everything about every hull that ever existed. That's why some of the responsability falls on us the fellow modeler to help them keep an even playing field.

Just my Two cents

Happy New Year Everyone!!!

Bert Dygert

 

[SayMikey]

Hydro Junkie,
Would you include the rear shoes in the depth dimension?

I think the overall width and length are important. Also the hull shape has to plays a part of it. Otherwise you could take a Bud T-4 fill in the holes between the primary and secondary wing and call it a T-6 without change the rear end of the boat. Both hulls have certain deck, non trip designs and trailing edge designs that make those boats unque and should be included in the hull construction.

I my self believe that we should get the hull length, width ( within the MHR), Color, and shape ( center section offset included) as close as possible and let's go race model boats. The idea like it has been mention, is to grow the scale ranks and not kill it. There will always be some people push the window to there advantage and it's up to the district scale directors and National scale director to keep them in check. That's why they are in the positions there in.

Also keep in mind that the scale directors have an impossible job. Because it's impossible for them to know everything about every hull that ever existed. That's why some of the responsability falls on us the fellow modeler to help them keep an even playing field.

Just my Two cents

Happy New Year Everyone!!!

Bert Dygert

Dont shoot me,just throwing it out there. Whats wrong with SPORT 60 It seems to work in NAMBA for guys that dont want to or cant get wings to stay on! <guns blazzin

 

[Tony Jacuzzi]

Hydro Junkie,
Would you include the rear shoes in the depth dimension?

I think the overall width and length are important. Also the hull shape has to plays a part of it. Otherwise you could take a Bud T-4 fill in the holes between the primary and secondary wing and call it a T-6 without change the rear end of the boat. Both hulls have certain deck, non trip designs and trailing edge designs that make those boats unque and should be included in the hull construction.

I my self believe that we should get the hull length, width ( within the MHR), Color, and shape ( center section offset included) as close as possible and let's go race model boats. The idea like it has been mention, is to grow the scale ranks and not kill it. There will always be some people push the window to there advantage and it's up to the district scale directors and National scale director to keep them in check. That's why they are in the positions there in.

Also keep in mind that the scale directors have an impossible job. Because it's impossible for them to know everything about every hull that ever existed. That's why some of the responsability falls on us the fellow modeler to help them keep an even playing field.

Just my Two cents

Happy New Year Everyone!!!

Bert Dygert

Dont shoot me,just throwing it out there. Whats wrong with SPORT 60 It seems to work in NAMBA for guys that dont want to or cant get wings to stay on! <guns blazzin

I think that sport60 would be a good idea and would interest me ( I have a nice barely used greenie to put in it !! lol) . The class would have spirit of the beautiful scale boats, sortta like the Gas sport hydros or the Thunderboats, nice looking but not overly anal... TJ

 

[Ray Sametz]

Couple of questions, on the boat I'm building the RCU MHR has the depth at 2'-3" plus 10% = 3.7125 inches. The Newton Plans have the depth of 4.125 inches. So technically speaking the hull is illegal. Also the APL is 17' on Namba MHR and 19' on the RCU MHR. APL works for RCU but would be too long in Namba????? What to do????? B) B)

What is the depth measurement? How do you measure it? and where?

At the sponson transom, bottom of ride pad to deck. Is this right????? B) B)