Don F, Debate Here.

[Andy Greene]

-Allowing LiPo's is fine with me, I just don't like, that for doing so, the rules were changed to allow more than double power in each class. That's what I have a problem with, not LiPo's in general-

Excellent... then we are on a very similiar page...

So... what kind of limits would you suggest?

Unf**king believable! SIX pages later and we are back to the ONLY 2 things I've been asking about from the get go, come up with something or even ideas to make things fairly equal in terms of your choice of power in the various classes & some thought & pro-activeness into the safety of lipo's. I thought the IC people were thick in the head but some of you guys take the cake. I have seen this go from people being "offended" to the trading of insults to posts from those who just feel like being a smart ass & offer nothing of substance to .. well enough already. Not to mention I'm STILL trying to figure out where this notion of wanting to "ban" lipo's even came from. :angry:

Don, Thank You.

 

[AlanN]

Don,

I don't think you understand the complexity of what your asking. Reg: equalizing power. So are you asking us to regulate power? capacity? There really is no equalizing electronic that will do it all. Electrics have such a wide variety of motors to choose from (in each class) that what your asking is quite difficult to achieve. I am sure that I will recieve flak on that since there are those who want to limit the very thing that we are attaining with our new cell tech.

Yes, we can limit certain things but as afore mentioned our speed contollers are our real limitation.

Safety precautions have already been mentioned and sound valid ones at that too.

The one thing that has not been mentioned(or I overlooked it) would be a kill wire for our main power supply....to easily kill the juice ot our motors for handling(retrieving).

 

[Andy Greene]

Don,I don't think you understand the complexity of what your asking. Reg: equalizing power. So are you asking us to regulate power? capacity? There really is no equalizing electronic that will do it all. Electrics have such a wide variety of motors to choose from (in each class) that what your asking is quite difficult to achieve. I am sure that I will recieve flak on that since there are those who want to limit the very thing that we are attaining with our new cell tech.

Yes, we can limit certain things but as afore mentioned our speed contollers are our real limitation.

Safety precautions have already been mentioned and sound valid ones at that too.

The one thing that has not been mentioned(or I overlooked it) would be a kill wire for our main power supply....to easily kill the juice ot our motors for handling(retrieving).

Alan, thats pretty standard stuff in Europe yes? The kill wire that is. As it is now, you have to untape(the hatch) and unplug a battery pack to completly disable power.

 

[Darin Jordan]

Don,I don't think you understand the complexity of what your asking. Reg: equalizing power. So are you asking us to regulate power? capacity? There really is no equalizing electronic that will do it all. Electrics have such a wide variety of motors to choose from (in each class) that what your asking is quite difficult to achieve. I am sure that I will recieve flak on that since there are those who want to limit the very thing that we are attaining with our new cell tech.

Yes, we can limit certain things but as afore mentioned our speed contollers are our real limitation.

Safety precautions have already been mentioned and sound valid ones at that too.

The one thing that has not been mentioned(or I overlooked it) would be a kill wire for our main power supply....to easily kill the juice ot our motors for handling(retrieving).

Thanks Alan... After 6-pages I would think that this would be self-evident by now...

 

[Pagemaster]

I'm just asking you to please stop comparingit to nitro as an equal danger. It clearly isnt.

Steven

Hey Steve... Now that you just provoked me into looking deeper... and I have... I just thought I'd let you know... that EVERY MAJOR or MINOR racing (real cars, etc...) organization requires pit crews/participants to wear a fire suit when fueling their vehicles... I'm sure that's because of the low danger... :unsure:

Oh, and I'm sure that the racers are all aware of the MSDS for nitromethane - http://www.camd.lsu.edu/msds/n/nitromethane.htm

While you guys are worrying about those Lipo fire statistics... you need to ask for all the facts... HOW many of those failures just happed to a well cared for, non-damaged pack? When you hear the underlying story of the conditions under which they failed, I think you'll find some interesting info... Like the one about the guy who burned his car to the ground after severely crashing his plane, then trying to charge the damaged pack under the hood of his car...

You CAN'T legislate COMMON SENSE!

My point is that there ARE dangers with all this stuff... and FE is leading the way by putting safety requirements in the proposed Power Requirements proposals that hopefully are arriving soon...

W
Wow, you are pulling data and safety from real cars? Again please point me to the incidents in our hobby that are related with nitro fuel. You can't.

There are just not enough problems with it.

You said to ask a couple of racers about the problems. I heard one of one incident were a person hooked his lipo up backwards at a boat race.

Burnt his hand. Again I'm NOY SAYING NOT TO USE LIPO. I AM SAYING THERE ARE FAR LESS INCEDENTS OF NITRO RELATED ISSUES. Please

reconsider using the lack of nitro regulations as an argument.

 

[Kris Flynn]

Hey Joerg Specktrem radios are 2.4gHz radios which basically select an available frequency or channel and there are no clashes of frequencies...
thats my basic understanding

Thsi is taken from http://www.spektrumrc.com/DSM/FAQ.aspx

What is DSM?DSM or Digital Spektrum Modulation is Spektrum's proprietary method of implementing 2.4GHz spread spectrum technology for the R/C industry. DSM divides the 2.4Ghz band into 80 individual channels (frequencies) and incorporates direct sequence spread spectrum with an imbedded GUID (Globally Unique Identifier) code. DSM has been painstakingly optimized by our engineers for R/C surface and aircraft use, offering the most robust RF link in the industry.

I thought he ment that, just was'nt sure.

Do you have experience in using it in boats? I did'nt buy one so far, because first I'm still very fine with my 40/75MHz Futaba/Schulze combo, second, quite some guys I saw it using had big troubles and range problems. So far it seams as water on the receiver antenna is a big problem. It if would work, it's a very nice technology though.

To me it's just another example that not everything written by the manufacturer is worth the electrons it uses to get displayed on the screen.

Joerg

No I have not used it. BUT a few of the other FE guys here do and love it. The main thing is to make sure the arial it straight up and a clear view to the Transmitter...from what i have seen and been told that it

 

[Pagemaster]

I currently use it without one glitch. I will not be switching back. No range problems what so ever.

I do have the receiver right next to the antenna exit. So almost all of the 5" or so antenna does stick out of the hull.

I have heard of some guys keeping the antenna inside the hull. I just cant handle that idea.

Steven

 

[Kris Flynn]

Steve, I heard the same thing about trying to get as much of the aerial out of the boat!

 

[JfromJAGs]

Sorry, I can't follow a thread with 3-5 parallel discusions. I try my best.

Kris: the guys I saw having problems were mainly using carbon hulls - which I do also. Maybe they have sorted the problems out by now. So far my 3PK stuff is working fine with standard crystals, but the radio supports DSM modules, so I may switch later. In this case I let the others find out how to make it work. So far I don't see a benefit for myself, I haven't had radio problems for quite a long time.

Darin: you are not seriously asking me this question again? - Just don't double it.

AlanN: I think you will pretty soon learn that BL controllers will not be the limiters you think they are. Maybe for the budget guys who run 70A controllers, but there are already 180A-200A controllers available - or will be in 2007.

 

[Darin Jordan]

Darin: you are not seriously asking me this question again? - Just don't double it.

I'mmmmm.... Not sure what you are referring to here... I don't recall asking you any questions recently... Maybe you are referring to what I posted in response to Drew 2???

Either way... I've said my peace... It will be what it will be...

Hope everyone has a safe and joyous Christmas season!

Just make sure your wife doesn't put the new Lipos UNDER the Christmas tree... h34r: :blink:

 

[AlanN]

[qoute]You said to ask a couple of racers about the problems. I heard one of one incident were a person hooked his lipo up backwards at a boat race.

Burnt his hand.

Oh Please Steve give me a friggin break....yeah I burnt my hands on soldering irons and ciggarettes too.

Hey Steve....try plugging in a nimh 32 cell pack backward and you'll get the same if not worse results....or do I have to jar your memory back to WI this year when we heard nimh's explode from an incorrect wiring procedure.

The fact is that we use electricity...lipo or any other container source....it's still electricity.

Joerg....high amp speedo...sure bring it on.

As you know they aren't really needed for the high cell counts as much as the low ones.....so what are we gonna see now....N size boats loaded with more lipos than they can float to be able to achieve those high amp draws....let's get real.

I believe the high amp were requested by most SAW guys since they could not back up their initial passes.....so I guess if you run SAW's it's OK to pull high amps but not if you race oval or O/S?

I am sure your telling the truth about the controllers Joerg but will their programming be able to handle the rpm's that could occur in low wind cans? There will always be some physical limit.

 

[JfromJAGs]

Akan, I explained that on RR already, but as it is simple, I will do it again.

The 5000mAh class of LiPo cells are able to put out 100A continous, 150A for some seconds, 250A bursts. Their IR is about half compared to 3 NiMH's which they replace. So basically, being conservative, 2 of those cells replace 6 latest generation NiMH cells. With the 10,000mAh limit, you are allowed to parallel 2 of those packs.

Now pull out your P boat. Replace the motor with one of double KV, but same size (!) as for P and then install two of the above mentioned LiPo pack in parallel and you got a boat that runs like a normal P boat, just on half the voltage but double current. Oh, you'd need to get the biggest controller you can buy and water cool it nicely. As you run on 2S2P, it's a legal N2 boat now.

Same applies to all other classes.

Joerg

 

[piper_chuck]

Don,I don't think you understand the complexity of what your asking. Reg: equalizing power. So are you asking us to regulate power? capacity? There really is no equalizing electronic that will do it all. Electrics have such a wide variety of motors to choose from (in each class) that what your asking is quite difficult to achieve.

Over the years I've found that when someone doesn't want to do something, one of the reasons they use is that it's very difficult. If they want to do it, like magic, the solutions start coming out...

Wasn't there a suggestion of using a fuse to limit current?

 

[Darin Jordan]

Just for fun...

I saw this commercial on TV tonight... here is the website: https://www.spinmaster.com/product.php?prod...204&s=storm

Right there on NATIONAL TV for all to see and ponder and buy... "LIPO battery included..."

I think I'd be more worried about getting hit by one of these things while walking, biking, swimming, or hang gliding than I would about the batteries exploding... That'll happen AFTER the yahoo who owns it crashes it into your Honda, then tries to recharge the battery... :blink:

 

[AlanN]

Akan, I explained that on RR already, but as it is simple, I will do it again.
The 5000mAh class of LiPo cells are able to put out 100A continous, 150A for some seconds, 250A bursts. Their IR is about half compared to 3 NiMH's which they replace. So basically, being conservative, 2 of those cells replace 6 latest generation NiMH cells. With the 10,000mAh limit, you are allowed to parallel 2 of those packs.

Now pull out your P boat. Replace the motor with one of double KV, but same size (!) as for P and then install two of the above mentioned LiPo pack in parallel and you got a boat that runs like a normal P boat, just on half the voltage but double current. Oh, you'd need to get the biggest controller you can buy and water cool it nicely. As you run on 2S2P, it's a legal N2 boat now.

Same applies to all other classes.

Joerg

Well actually Joerg I have somewhat done that to some extent with a hull I've used in alot of classes. This set up is for N2 O/S.

I pull 100 amps approx for 4 mins and it's alot of fun. Yes I know its half of what your stating is but the pure physics of more cells and weight in a smaller hull (and yes they do get bigger as power increases) will not be proprtionate to the class. There will need to be some refining of the rules ex: hull length

Each club should govern what can and or is safe at their site. Damned lawyers always screw things up.

We hope to be setting a precedent here and do not look upon unsafe practice lightly. Well at least I don't.

If you read Pauls POV you'll see that we discuss the future of FE changing and evolving.

Since the current realty is that we do need more experience but what we have already learned is being put to the test.

Of course it's quite difficult to relay all that on the internet...I really do wish we could discuss this over a few.

 

[AlanN]

Don,I don't think you understand the complexity of what your asking. Reg: equalizing power. So are you asking us to regulate power? capacity? There really is no equalizing electronic that will do it all. Electrics have such a wide variety of motors to choose from (in each class) that what your asking is quite difficult to achieve.

Over the years I've found that when someone doesn't want to do something, one of the reasons they use is that it's very difficult. If they want to do it, like magic, the solutions start coming out...

Wasn't there a suggestion of using a fuse to limit current?

How many sizes of motor classes are there for IC? 3-4,5? For nitro and gas?

There are many more currently allowed in FE but there physical mass are not the measureable points.

As I said it's not an easy answer and quite frankly I don't know the answer nor do many of those with whom I've discussed this point with.

Thanks for dig and Merry Xmas to you too.

ps If you think a fuse is gonna do it.....ROFLMA!

 

[Kevin Whitehead]

Over the years I've found that when someone doesn't want to do something, one of the reasons they use is that it's very difficult. If they want to do it, like magic, the solutions start coming out...
Wasn't there a suggestion of using a fuse to limit current?

Yes, there was. It was filed under: "Bad Suggestions".

 

[piper_chuck]

Yup, like I said, if people don't want to do something, the problem becomes difficult. All sorts of "reasons" will come up and people will resort to things like ad-hominems to try to stifle discussion. I've seen it over and over in discussions about boat rules.

 

[JfromJAGs]

One of the reaon why people don't want to do something includes: "it just does'nt make sence." We have a saying in Germany: "People, eat ****. Trillions of blowfleis can't be wrong".

It sure does'nt apply here 100%, but people are concerned. This has nothing to do with them just saying No, because they said No.

 

[sjslhill]

You just as well give it up......I am going with Paul's suggestion and the IMPBA

thanks,

Steve

One of the reaon why people don't want to do something includes: "it just does'nt make sence." We have a saying in Germany: "People, eat ****. Trillions of blowfleis can't be wrong".
It sure does'nt apply here 100%, but people are concerned. This has nothing to do with them just saying No, because they said No.