Don F, Debate Here.

[AlanN]

Over the years I've found that when someone doesn't want to do something, one of the reasons they use is that it's very difficult. If they want to do it, like magic, the solutions start coming out...
Wasn't there a suggestion of using a fuse to limit current?

Yes, there was. It was filed under: "Bad Suggestions".

Yep,

I like the insult to challenge ratio.

Sorry I tried to explain some of the complications to your thick heads.

Did I say that we are not going to try to work out some of the unknowns...or do I have to answer immeditetly or be cast as a slacker?

Ah I wish I were as perfect as you.

 

[Pagemaster]

[qoute]You said to ask a couple of racers about the problems. I heard one of one incident were a person hooked his lipo up backwards at a boat race.Burnt his hand.

Oh Please Steve give me a friggin break....yeah I burnt my hands on soldering irons and ciggarettes too.

Hey Steve....try plugging in a nimh 32 cell pack backward and you'll get the same if not worse results....or do I have to jar your memory back to WI this year when we heard nimh's explode from an incorrect wiring procedure.

The fact is that we use electricity...lipo or any other container source....it's still electricity.

Alan you missed my point. There are guys here and everywhere else saying problems won't happen. Its simply not true.The person this happened to I consider one be one of the better racers around. What happens where much less qualified guys jump into the mix?

I'm not arguing that lipo shouldn't be used, just that stating that 5-7 of the top racers around running lipo without problems is

not a clear cut cross section of the group that will be running in 2007.

I'm done with all these posts. I'm ready to make the change and go with what the majority wants in 2007.

 

[Don Ferrette]

Alan you missed my point. There are guys here and everywhere else saying problems won't happen. Its simply not true.The person this happened to I consider one be one of the better racers around. What happens where much less qualified guys jump into the mix?

I'm not arguing that lipo shouldn't be used, just that stating that 5-7 of the top racers around running lipo without problems is

not a clear cut cross section of the group that will be running in 2007.

OMG!! Someone is displaying some frikkin' common sense! Rather than spending time dishing smart ass comments why can't some of you actually THINK & ask yourselves WHY the lipo safety even came up? For you knuckleheads out there who seem to think this is a joke let's put it this way- at IMPBA races the RULES require a fire extinguisher be in the hot pits for if there should be a gas fire. Now tell me this, how many racers will know specifically what type of fire extiguisher will put out a lipo fire IF one should occur? Chances are as of right now at a race with Open classes that extiguisher in the pits is probably only rated for gasoline fires because they are significantly cheaper than multi use rated extinguishers. Well guess what, that gasoline grade unit probably will not put out a lipo fire. Regardless, to the some of you think this is funny or worth ridule I tell you something, it's not. Be PRO-ACTIVE & cover your collective asses. The key word here is IF as in IF something happens people will know WHAT to do & be prepared to handle it quickly & safely.

 

[sjslhill]

Class D, burning metals

 

[Darin Jordan]

For you knuckleheads out there who seem to think this is a joke let's put it this way- at IMPBA races the RULES require a fire extinguisher be in the hot pits for if there should be a gas fire. .... Well guess what, that gasoline grade unit probably will not put out a lipo fire. ......The key word here is IF as in IF something happens people will know WHAT to do & be prepared to handle it quickly & safely.

Don... Your insults and rhetoric don't become you at all....

Steve V... I don't recall reading here ANYONE saying that incidents "weren't going to happen".... It's been thoroughly acknowledged that they CAN happen, but that the frequency and severity were being blown out of proportion quite a bit...

Back to Don...

The proposal that went forth added the following to the Power Requirements section of the FE rules:

Note: It is recognized that the high energy potential of modern cells can poses a potential for danger, both to racers and to their pit equipment. It is therefore required that each racer keep in their charging area the appropriate safety equipment at events where alternate battery chemistries are being used. This may include fire extinguishers, safe charging enclosures, sand buckets, etc. Additionally, the hosting clubs may provide additional equipment, charging procedures, and/ or charging areas as they see fit.

That's a WAY more proactive approach to safety than anything NAMBA has currently... I suppose an ammendment could be to add "Class D, burning metals" to the requirement somewhere, but based on the complexity of the FE boat in the first place, let's give the driver's the benefit of the doubt and figure that they can do the approriate reseach, ask the right questions, and get the extinguisher they need...

Maybe after you get some experience with FE boats, you'll come to better appreciate the level of understanding that the average FE competitor has of their equipment, and then will have a little more faith in their judgement... or more faith in their clubmates to steer them in the right direction...

 

[Kevin Whitehead]

OMG!! Someone is displaying some frikkin' common sense! Rather than spending time dishing smart ass comments why can't some of you actually THINK & ask yourselves WHY the lipo safety even came up? For you knuckleheads out there who seem to think this is a joke let's put it this way- at IMPBA races the RULES require a fire extinguisher be in the hot pits for if there should be a gas fire. Now tell me this, how many racers will know specifically what type of fire extiguisher will put out a lipo fire IF one should occur? Chances are as of right now at a race with Open classes that extiguisher in the pits is probably only rated for gasoline fires because they are significantly cheaper than multi use rated extinguishers. Well guess what, that gasoline grade unit probably will not put out a lipo fire. Regardless, to the some of you think this is funny or worth ridule I tell you something, it's not. Be PRO-ACTIVE & cover your collective asses. The key word here is IF as in IF something happens people will know WHAT to do & be prepared to handle it quickly & safely.

If you would have been as interested in the subject as you are now, you could have read posts about potential fires, fire extiguishers, buckets of sand, etc, over the last 2-3 years. You could have read these posts ad nauseum. It went on and on and on.

But instead, you imply that everyone involved in electric racing (with the exception of that "Someone displaying some frikkin' common sense") has absolutely no common sense and has put no thought into fire safety.

Try doing some research.

 

[Jeff]

Why is an ignorant post ok but a smart ass one not? Both are just as meaningless. Mr. fire extingisher expert, explain how an abc type would put out a methemol fire..huh

Jeff

 

[sjslhill]

Are you serious? What's methemol anyway? :lol:

Why is an ignorant post ok but a smart ass one not? Both are just as meaningless. Mr. fire extingisher expert, explain how an abc type would put out a methemol fire..huhJeff

 

[piper_chuck]

Then for smaller established classes allow a cetain amp peak as then what kind of power source, ESC, or cell count you run doesn't matter as you exceed the accepted class rating you pop the fuse. I'm tossing out ideas here folks which is more than I can say for some of the input on this. Can someone tell me why something like that won't work in definitive terms? I guess that's too simple or, more likely, takes the advantage. <_<

Because current is not the smooth, stable measurement that you think it is. It spikes with changes in load, like the prop leaving the water or entering the water again or debris hitting your prop.

Even something like letting off the throttle sharply can cause an unusually large spike. If you let go the trigger to avoid running into a boat the strays into your lane, do you deserve to lose because your fuse popped? That sounds like some racing fun!

That you Kevin for a straight up answer to a question or idea as opposed to some others who instead of offering some constructive rebuttal choose to act like children & spew ridicule. If you don't ask you don't learn. If you don't cover your ass it will eventually get burned. If you don't challenge the norm you don't move forward or find new & workable ideas or heaven forbid a flaw in the current system. I think for now I'll put that FE 1/8th scale on hold. <_<

Don, ever hear of a slow blow fuse? They're designed to handle such things as the spikes Kevin described. It's not clear that the issues Kevin described are show stoppers. It would be interesting to run some tests to see how well they could work for this application.

 

[piper_chuck]

Over the years I've found that when someone doesn't want to do something, one of the reasons they use is that it's very difficult. If they want to do it, like magic, the solutions start coming out...
Wasn't there a suggestion of using a fuse to limit current?

Yes, there was. It was filed under: "Bad Suggestions".

Yep,

I like the insult to challenge ratio. Sorry I tried to explain some of the complications to your thick heads.

Did I say that we are not going to try to work out some of the unknowns...or do I have to answer immeditetly or be cast as a slacker?

Ah I wish I were as perfect as you.

"I like the insult to challenge ratio." It sure seems that way since you're working so hard to increase it. I never said anyone was a slacker, all I was doing is pointing out that when people don't want something done, they find lots of reasons against it. Maybe everyone should clearly state their position on limiting current so others can understand whether they are motivated to find a way to do it, or are looking for reasons to not do it.

 

[Don Ferrette]

For you knuckleheads out there who seem to think this is a joke let's put it this way- at IMPBA races the RULES require a fire extinguisher be in the hot pits for if there should be a gas fire. .... Well guess what, that gasoline grade unit probably will not put out a lipo fire. ......The key word here is IF as in IF something happens people will know WHAT to do & be prepared to handle it quickly & safely.

Don... Your insults and rhetoric don't become you at all....

So it's ok to make fun of & jokes out of trying to establish some kind of rules or guidelines in safely dealing with these new power sources?? Sorry but if anyone truly feels that way then the knucklehead statement still applies.

 

[Don Ferrette]

Why is an ignorant post ok but a smart ass one not? Both are just as meaningless. Mr. fire extingisher expert, explain how an abc type would put out a methemol fire..huhJeff

Methanol fires can be extinguished with an ABC rated extiguisher. Go buy yourself a spell check program.

 

[Don Ferrette]

But instead, you imply that everyone involved in electric racing (with the exception of that "Someone displaying some frikkin' common sense") has absolutely no common sense and has put no thought into fire safety.

Nope, comments were directed at those who seem to think implementing safety guidelines is worth making fun of, not all FE as you are attempting to imply.

 

[Jeff]

Thee electric racers have been discussing how to legalize lipos for about two and a half years. There has been much debate, everything has a positive and a negative, there really has been no one way of doing it that seems to meet the majority of peoples needs. The nitro guy's now expressing there opinions about it have brought up things discussed for years. Even the fire extinguishers have been discussed. In the past when ballots have come across for me to vote on(yes I get them, I am a NAMBA member, most debaters are not) I have not voted on gas or nitro rules even though I have had opinions on them. As a matter off fact I don't even vote on electric rules for classes I don't run. One only needs to go to the nitro threads about strut bracket on the transom or underneath to see how much things get debated. Look also at the is this a legal sport hydro or a rigger and also the noise db. Where to measure arguments. This is the same debates we are having on thee electric side but there are safety and expense issues that go along with it. We are beating are heads on the key boards trying to figure this out then the nitro guy's come in to the hornets nest and rehash everything.Sorry we are a little touchy right now but if you think about your endless debate threads like I mentioned above, maybe you can relate to how frustrating this is. Sorry to be insulting but if you nitro guy's arn't using the proper fire extinguishers or radio impounds or even mandating new technology to fix accidents you already have had it is a little hard to take when you are telling us about what if safety issues.

Jeff

 

[Darin Jordan]

So it's ok to make fun of & jokes out of trying to establish some kind of rules or guidelines in safely dealing with these new power sources?? Sorry but if anyone truly feels that way then the knucklehead statement still applies.

Don,

Merry Christmas...

In case you haven't noticed... no one here has been "making jokes" about safety... I HAVE been downplaying the hype about how dangerous this stuff is, however... The safety issue is there, but WAY blown out of proportion by some who don't even have experience with these things... Try to keep up with the messages being presented... it'll save you coming off sounding like you are sounding...

As you should have read, if you indeed read the whole post, we "FE Knuckleheads" are WAY AHEAD of anyone else in NAMBA or IMPBA when it comes to considering the safety of our pits/spectators/competitors... hence, the addition of the safety language to the rules...

I know it's more conveniant to just gloss over the facts and go right for the rhetoric, but it's not very productive... If you truely want to understand, then how about paying attention to the point and not on trying to find something to slam someone over...

 

[Don Ferrette]

I know it's more conveniant to just gloss over the facts and go right for the rhetoric, but it's not very productive... If you truely want to understand, then how about paying attention to the point and not on trying to find something to slam someone over...

Come on Darrin, you've been right there from the start ridiculing the idea of being pro-active about this-

"That's it... I move that we end this entire RC hobby right now... it's FAR too dangerous"

"Just make sure your wife doesn't put the new Lipos UNDER the Christmas tree"

"Right there on NATIONAL TV for all to see and ponder and buy... "LIPO battery included..."

Gloss over what facts, that so far we've been lucky? I'm not about slamming anyone but rather the whole notion of implying that there's been no problem so there is no problem. Why wait until there is one? Sure as of now there hasn't been the occurences like the plane guys but right now the boat usage is quite small by comparison. Lipo's burst (no pun intended) onto the scene and turned the plane world upside down in terms of usage, much like what will happen with the boats, many more will start using them & with that the odds that something can happen. Just look at what Paul wrote about how much racing you guys cram into one day. Do you really think that no lipo's on charge will go unattended, supposedly a bad thing to do with a lipo pack, in situations like that? Of coure you can't, we all know how things get "in the heat of battle", you grab the boat that's up & you go race. You spoke of putting "faith" in that there will be right stuff there when there's a problem. That's great if you could say beyond the shadow of a doubt this would happen but you know that's not the case. Can you guarantee that every FE racer or even other racers at "open" events know what to do or that you need a class D extinguisher to put out a lipo fire? I didn't until I did some research, contrary to what has been implied, and began to realize that there's not a single shred of print covering this in the rules although you did mention going back and adding something to the NAMBA proposal not many are even familar with and IMPBA has nothing even in the works. What's wrong with pressing for some written guidelines & requirements which if we actually started talking about rather than making fun of back in the beginning this thread would have ended pages ago. What I wanted was to address a potential nasty scenario & all I got was ridicule. You all pushed & I pushed back, it's that simple. So eight pages later can we talk about what type of easy to understand guidelines & requirements should added so everyone might have the knowledge that only a few so far seem to know?

 

[Darin Jordan]

What's wrong with pressing for some written guidelines & requirements which if we actually started talking about rather than making fun of back in the beginning this thread would have ended pages ago.
...

So eight pages later can we talk about what type of easy to understand guidelines & requirements should added so everyone might have the knowledge that only a few so far seem to know?

If I'm not mistaken... we put more than just "guidelines" into the new Power Requirements section, should it get voted in... I quoted the new REQUIREMENTS above... If you have more you want added, then put something in print and let's hear it. It would be a heck of a lot more useful than you telling us we haven't bothered considering the possiblities... I'd say that we have... and that we've addressed them appropriately...

 

[Don Ferrette]

If I'm not mistaken... we put more than just "guidelines" into the new Power Requirements section, should it get voted in... I quoted the new REQUIREMENTS above... If you have more you want added, then put something in print and let's hear it. It would be a heck of a lot more useful than you telling us we haven't bothered considering the possiblities... I'd say that we have... and that we've addressed them appropriately..

"Note: It is recognized that the high energy potential of modern cells can poses a potential for danger, both to racers and to their pit equipment. It is therefore required that each racer keep in their charging area the appropriate safety equipment at events where alternate battery chemistries are being used. This may include fire extinguishers, safe charging enclosures, sand buckets, etc. Additionally, the hosting clubs may provide additional equipment, charging procedures, and/ or charging areas as they see fit."

Do you think that "may include ..." is enough? ( this is just a question Darin) Wouldn't something like "A fully charged class D fire extinguisher is required at all sanctioned FE events and practices" be more appropriate? One thing I've learned over the years is that when you use words like may, recommended, should, etc. that people will interpret that as an option not a requirement.

And BTW until you actually posted this there was nothing showing in this thread that anything was "in the works" for either org. Again, this sure would have been nice to share & "a heck of a lot more useful" 8 pages ago instead of, as you call it "downplaying the hype".

Oh yeah, Merry Christmas to you too. B)

 

[Darin Jordan]

Do you think that "may include ..." is enough? ( this is just a question Darin) Wouldn't something like "A fully charged class D fire extinguisher is required at all sanctioned FE events and practices" be more appropriate? One thing I've learned over the years is that when you use words like may, recommended, should, etc. that people will interpret that as an option not a requirement.

Yes... I do think "may include" is quite enough, especially since it is describing a list of the REQUIRED safety equipment...

Here is how I think about these rules... Just substitute "NAMBA Rules" for "GCR" and you'll get the idea:

The GCR shall not be given an strained or tortured interpretation and shall be applied in a logical manner, keeping in mind that it cannot specifically cover all possible situations. The word "shall" (either positive "shall" or negative "shall not") is mandatory. The word "may is permissive.

Since the rule I quoted above specifies that some form of "appropriate" safety equipment is REQUIRED, the following sentance is not a limiting list, but rather some appropriate and acceptable examples.

Would it be more "appropriate" to require everyone to carry a class "D" extinguisher??? That's a matter of opinion. Which is more effective, the extinguisher or a bucket of sand?? One is $25+ for a tiny 16oz unit (http://garage-toys.com/fi20fiex.html) or $395.00 for a 30lbs unit, compared to the other at $3.95 for 50lbs at any hardware supply. Which is "more appropriate" to put out the fire if both will do the trick, and the sand can be cleaned out without causing undo damage from chemicals to the rest of the hardware? I've used Halon systems for years in my real racecars... you ever tried to clean up after a 10lbs bottle has been discharged??? Do you know what they can do to the surrounding areas?? Is that "appropriate" for the pit area? I really don't know... Personally, if both will do the job, I'll go with the sand...

The rules as proposed give each competitor the responsibility to decide for themselves what is an isn't appropriate for the job, and adds the allowance for the clubs to manage themselves...

Additionally, and this is coming directly from car racing... You ever thought of what the lawyers do with "requirements"?? If someone gets hurt while participating under the "required" safety regs, and those safety regs fail to protect them... who do you think maintains the liability for such an ordeal???

So, to answer your question... YES, I do think what is proposed is "appropriate" for the situation, and additionally feel still that each club will/can add whatever additional safety precautions they feel necessary to protect their members...

Night... talk to you tomorrow...

 

[Don Ferrette]

Here is how I think about these rules... Just substitute "NAMBA Rules" for "GCR" and you'll get the idea:

The GCR shall not be given an strained or tortured interpretation and shall be applied in a logical manner, keeping in mind that it cannot specifically cover all possible situations. The word "shall" (either positive "shall" or negative "shall not") is mandatory. The word "may is permissive.

Ok interesting approach. Now next question, has anyone inquired with the insurance policy holder(s) what they might want to see written or even might require? This is not trying to nitpick but rather cover all the bases. BTW- I work in a downtown office building that has numerous law firms there & I've gotten to know a few of the lawyers. Now these are not the bottom feeding ambulance chasers but very prominent lawyers in industrial & criminal law, one of which thinks the boat racing is rather cool. We've had multiple conversations about the boats & the safety topic has come up. One thing he was very quick to point out that some type of safety guidelines and/or rules in place carries way more weight should there ever be a situation involving litigation. He told me that nothing in place puts the org. squarely in the crosshairs of negligence on the part of protecting it's members and while there are no perfect rules for every situation it's far better than leaving us completely exposed. Just a little insight as to why I'm so hard core on this and didn't someone previously mention a hobby supplier currently being sued for $350,000 because of a lipo fire? :huh: