Don F, Debate Here.

[Paul Pachmayer]

Don,

I started this thread because I didn't want to side track the other one. I feel I need to explain a thing or two.

Now can someone show a cost comparision between these two & also the amps capacity of both

Another interesting comparison between the 32 cell Sub C pack and the 10S LiPo would be the weight..

TP5000-10SXDimensions = 166 x 45 x 84

Weight = 1198 grams

$579.99

32 IB4200 cells

23mm x 43.5mm per cell

weight 71g per cell

$208.00

THIS is exactly what I've been getting at. 3 times the cost, 1/2 the weight & we won't even talk about the HUGE difference in space requirements (read smaller hull even faster), kinda puts the guy who can't afford almost $600 for just one pack at a bit of a disadvantage doesn't it?? huh.gif
No offense but this push for these seem to be driven by those with deep enough pockets. What about the "little guy"?? Think he's gonna stick around to get his ass handed to him every weekend? dry.gif

Man this just kills me. Don, you are way off base with the above comment and I do take offence. Please, if you don't understand something (which you clearly don't) don't make broad statement such as this. It just makes things worse.

Here is a REAL WORLD comparison from a guy who has run T boats for many years.

To run competitive in T you need at least 3 packs of 32 cells, one pack per round. Not cells that are out of the box either, you need matched and carefully selected cells. These cells range fron 8 to 10 dollars EACH. Lets say an average of 300.00 a pack. Now, those packs being run to thier maximum preformance will give roughly 20 cycles before they need replacement. If you run a T boat as much as I do your looking at 6, 32 cell packs a season.

Now we move to a lipo powered T boat, I use a 10S2P setup. In other words 4 4350 packs 2 in series 2 in parallel. These packs cost 236.00 each. They can be recharged as much in one day as you would like without problems. I have well over 70 cycles on the 4 packs I bought this year for my T boat. They still preform like new. I'm certain I'll get a MINIMUM of 2 seasons out of these cells.

So, in summary;

NiMh 4200 mah total Sub-Cs

6x32 1800.00

Weight is 5 pounds a pack

One season use.

Lipo 4350 mah x2 8700 mah

4 packs 944.00

Weight is 4 pounds 14 ounces

At least 2 seasons use

The equipment used to race T is the same wether using sub-Cs or lipos. This is real world experiance guys, I'm not guessing at what it takes.

Again Don, please be more careful with your statements regarding FE until you FULLY understand what the F**K is actually going on.

Paul.

 

[Don Ferrette]

I started this thread because I didn't want to side track the other one. I feel I need to explain a thing or two... <SNIP>.Again Don, please be more careful with your statements regarding FE until you FULLY understand what the F**K is actually going on.

Paul.

Well Paul if you, or someone else, would have taken the time WAAAAY back in the beginning to show the differences in either one of those threads rather than single me out here things might be different but since you choose to do things this way & go toe to toe lets rumble.....

Obviously a few of you have your panties in a wad because the fastest FE guy on the planet called you all out. Do I think I know more than all you ampheads, nope sure don't. BUT ..... what I do know is there is a good bit of behind the scenes grumblings about how lipo's are going to turn the FE world upside down. To hear one only has to listen & I have heard lots of things ranging from excessive costs to amp ratings vs. weight advantages to the VERY REAL risk of fires. So far, at least to me, the only push for these to go into things unrestricted are from deep pocket guys with those nice little "business type logos" in the avitars so what is one to think?? And let me ask you this- why the F**K did you wait until now to show a comparision like this (which BTW is different than the 2 examples I asked about that someone else gave) which would have been a big help 4 pages ago on the other threads.

And BTW- I didn't start the weight question you quoted, that credit goes to someone else. Like I said, why didn't you or anyone else step up and say something earlier when statements were first made & the questions first asked?? Or is it you are now soooo jilted because Joerg made such a brash statement that a nitro burner might have a better grasp of things than you ampheads do. Never said I agree with it but did thank him for the comment. Hmmm, seems to me that since Joerg has been able to smoke the water repeatedly at over 140mph, one would think he has a pretty good grasp of how things work......

Right, wrong or otherwise I want to get people to ask QUESTIONS and not be led blindly into things regardless of wether it is FE, gas, nitro or whatever. All too many times people say they want something without ever saying WHY ......

So unwad your panties & get over it. You have two choices now, delete your post & I'll delete mine & we can converse privately via p/m's or we can continue this right here & keep swinging. Don't matter to me, the choice is yours dude........

 

[Paul Pachmayer]

Don,

Well Paul if you, or someone else, would have taken the time WAAAAY back in the beginning to show the differences in either one of those threads rather than single me out here things might be different but since you choose to do things this way & go toe to toe lets rumble.....

LMFAO!!! WAAAAY back when the question was asked I wasn't on-line. Sorry it took me SOOOOO long to get back. If you notice most of my posting is done early in the morning, I'm not here 24/7. When I got the chance I answered. And yep, I'm ticked because you read one example and think it's gospel, then spout off about it. Your singled out for one reason, your the one voicing an opinion without sufficient knowledge.

Hmmm, seems to me that since Joerg has been able to smoke the water repeatedly at over 140mph, one would think he has a pretty good grasp of how things work......

He sure has and I applaud him for it. Now ask him how many oval T boats he runs? SAW boats are one thing, oval racing is another. Why don't you ask Joerg about the custom props and speed controls he used to achieve his goals? While your at it ask him about how much he's spent on batteries and the research needed to get the best of the best. You can't buy what Joerg used, I on the other hand use what is available to anyone. Does it bother me that he had the resources to build such equipment? Not in the least bit.

To hear one only has to listen & I have heard lots of things ranging from excessive costs to the VERY REAL risk of fires.

Okay, you "heard" something. What do you "know"? Do you know we've been running lipos over the last three years now? Do you know we haven"t had one fire? Do you know what the "real risk" of fires really are? Do you know what the real costs are? Have you done any research or are you relying on what you "heard"?

So far, at least to me, the only push for these to go into things unrestricted are from deep pocket guys with those nice little "business type logos" in the avitars so what is one to think?

Pretty cheap shot Don. #1 I never pushed for things to be "unrestricted". #2, I'm not a "deep pocket" guy. #3 that nice little "business type logo" was made possible by the fact that I may just know what I'm talking about.

And BTW- I didn't start the weight question you quoted, that credit goes to someone else.

I realize that but it was you who mentioned lighter, smaller and faster boats. It simply doesn't work that way. Try putting a 90 engine in a 21 mono.

So unwad your panties & get over it. You have two choices now, delete your post & I'll delete mine & we can converse privately via p/m's or we can continue this right here & keep swinging. Don't matter to me, the choice is yours dude........

I guess you didn't quite grasp the fact that in IMPBA lipos are legal now and we've been racing them for a couple years already. Funny, we haven't had a problem and we haven't had limits? My panties aren't in a wad, I get to race what I want, done deal. In NAMBA I'll sit back and watch. If they adopt classes that I can race I'll be there, if not oh well.

Paul.

 

[Don Ferrette]

Now I'm LMAO!! I got news for ya Paulie boy, your panties are wadded 'cause ya spent so much time makin' all those nice quote boxes in your reply. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Not remotely meant as a cheap shot directed at you on the logo, but it's obvious you have a vested interest in this stuff since you also sell things like motors, ESC's and oh yeah lipoly's. I like the LLC part BTW.

As for Lipo fires just do a Google or Yahoo search. It's all out there & even has pictures too so folks like you might actually believe there's an inherent risk. Nah, that ain't gonna happen right because we've not had a fire.... yet. There are far more plane guys than boat guys so odds are they'd see it first anyway. Besides if a lipoly pack you sold goes up in flames & takes someone's house or shop with it your ass is covered by your LLC right?

And yes the IMPBA has blindly allowed lipoly without any capacity limits whatsoever. And as much as some want to convince people it's only about voltage, once again AMPS x VOLTAGE = WATTAGE = HORSEPOWER. Lipoly's are clearly superior, no rocket science there. :blink:

We can go round and round on this all day & I could care less. I like playing devil's advocate because sometimes it actually gets people to THINK and perhaps start to ASK QUESTIONS rather than be led into the abyss. If I ticked you off, well I'm sorry for that but so be it because to just carry on like there are no risks & nobody gets disadvantaged along the way is not right either. Keep it level & keep it real. Wether I'm right, wrong or otherwise I'd much rather stir the sxxt now than see someone unfairly pay for it later.

Your turn.

 

[Darin Jordan]

... once again AMPS x VOLTAGE = WATTAGE = HORSEPOWER.

Not to jump into someplace where I don't belong... (well... what the heck... )... but this is WAY too simplistic... It's like saying that a .21 getting fed XX-liters of fuel will produce N-Horsepower... It ignores all the equipment inbetween that effects the efficiency of the system... Like head chamber design, porting, pipe design, weight, etc...

Electric motor systems also have mass, internal resistance, etc... things that affect efficiency, heat buildup, and the ability to generate power and torque... the theoritical limits that keep getting tossed about are ignoring all of these factors... One has to pay a little more attention to the practical limits of the technology...

As for Fires... Please show me WHERE in the NAMBA rulebook the safety regulations concerning the handling of Nitro-fuel around hot engines, electric fuel pumps, and glow plug starters are located?

For the record... the NAMBA proposal for allowing alternate battery chemistries contains new wording with very clear safety requirements for pit/competitor/spectator safety when using these batteries...

 

[Don Ferrette]

BTW- this was sent to me by someone who said I could share it but omit their name-

You definately made Pauls day.

 

They're not figuring on motor damage from excessive amps either.

I know the electric motors are quite forgiving, but they will shift and throw windings causing shorts if pushed too hard. The epoxy on the arms will only take so much. Then MO MONEY!

I professionally raced slot cars, had a raceway and held my share of records for many years.

Saw it all. We used 4 8D semi batteries with a 50amp charger to power the cars. Just too much power! Fortunately the motors are now brushless but not industructable. We also used to throw comutators then also.

 

Some of our qualifing armatures would only go one lap. The cost definately drove away racers, big time.

 

The last slot nats I raced, I brought 35 motors @ about $300-$400 each. A little rediculous isn't it.

 

But that's what happens if things get out of control.

This is what I was getting at about running off the little guys. Don't get me wrong, I'm not against the use of lipoly's at all, just think some type of amp limit be established for some of the classes that are currently heavily populated by sub C's might not be such a bad idea & perhaps create some unlimited classes along the way where if you've got the coin to run a couple grand worth of lipo's so be it. B)

 

[sjslhill]

Todd's models has a $350,000 suit as I type........

PolyRC (RCLIPOS.COM) is also an LLC and these packs are from Korea, that's why I dropped the line. Both Paul and RCLIPOS will be shut down as soon as one fire happens. (not meant to offend you Paul, it's fact)

We are also an LLC, I looked into product liability and it's $20K a year. I only carry Thunder Power now because there is a Thunder Power factory in the US. I am not sure that I like this either.

Like I stated, not meant to offend anyone, but if a customer burns his car or house, the insurance compaines will come a knocking at your door.

MaxAmps is taking a HUGE risk by making packs in house.

regards,

Steve

 

[sjslhill]

Small LiPoly pack fire image below

List from just one forum of LiPoy fires

FIRE DURING CHARGING:

Operator Error-

9s pack catches fire while being charged at 10s setting. (9)

2s pack catches fire being charged as 3s (10)

2s pack catches fire when charged at 3s setting (13)

2s pack catches fire in plane while charging at 3s setting. (22)

3s pack charged at 4s voltage ignites (27)

2s pack catches fire charged at 3s (30)

2s pack ignites when charged at 10.2V (31)

Overcharged battery (34)

2s pack charged at 11.1V catches fire. (36)

2s pack charged at 3s setting (40)

2s pack charges at 11.1V burns – (44)

2s charged at 11.2V goes off in garage – (47)

2s charged at 3s voltage ignites in garage – (49)

2s charged at 3s ignites in workshop – (52)

Another count problem – Heli burns (57)

Cell count error caused fire – (61, 62)

Pack charged on NiCd setting - (66)

Run Down pack catches fire during charge – (71)

LiPo Burns during charge on 109 charger after mode mis-set (82)

Charging slightly swelled pack causes fire (86)

Li-Ion cells catch fire from charger setting error (88)

Cell catches fire during attempt to repeak - (91)

Charging puffed cell causes it to ignite – (93)

Lipo burns during attempt to restore overdischarged cell with CC/CV PS (94)

Pack ignites during charging – smoke corrodes shed and contents (98)

Possible damaged pack burns like rocket in can – (100)

Attempt to recharge dead lipo causes plane fire (103)

Charging probably fully charged 3s pack with Astro 109 result in pack ignition. (104)

2s charged as 3s ignites in safe (109)

Restart of charger resulted in wrong charge mode – (113)

Wrong charger settings burns 2 packs – (112)

LiPo burns in modelers hand after charging - (115)

Charging slightly puffed cell causes fire, plane burns (117)

Using NiCd setting causes LiPo fire. Owner forgot to switch over to LiPo setting during charge cycle (118)

Charger set on 4 cells with 3 cell pack (126)

Garage fire during charging (127)

Modeler reports 2 lipo fires from wrong cell count (129)

Lipo charged on NiCd setting ignites (130)

Auto cell count charger fire – (131)

5s2p4000 packs ignites on first charge (133)

Overvoltage charge ignition – (135)

Lipo ignites during charge causing house fire – possible charger setting error. (139).

Too high charge rate burns battery (142)

Undetermined Cause While Charging

Fire damages garage while charging pack. (7)

1500 3s pack catches fire during 1A , 11.1V initial charge. (1)

2 cell pack ignites while being charged with 2 cell charger. (11)

Car burns when pack being charged in car catches fire. (24)

2s2p pack catches fire in helicopter – possible that charger misread # of cells. (25)

2s pack ignites while on charger set for 2s. (28)

$30,000 damage to house when pack ignites during charging. (no details) (43)

3s pack burns in garage – (35)

3s pack burns at correct settings- (41)

3s pack burns at correct charger settings – (46)

3s 8000mah pack catches fire after 15min – correct settings – (53)

Helicopter and pack burns after 15min charge – (54)

Automatic cell count charger – pack catches fire (55)

Automatic cell count charger – pack catches fire (56)

Lipo rockets across room (58)

Automatic cell count charger – Lipos burn in garage (59)

Battery ignites in car seat during charging (63)

Damaged battery ignites during charge (67)

Pack balloons during charge, burns while under water (68)

11s3p pack burns during charging at correct parameters (70)

Another charging fire – (72)

Helicopter burns when LiPo ignites during charge (73)

Undetermined cause to LiPo fire during charge – (74)

Chopper burns from charging LiPo fire (76)

House fire (81)

3s Pack Ignites burning front of car during charge at correct settings. (83)

Helicopter in garage burns while charging (106)

Well used Lipo ignites under correct charging parameters (107)

SUV Vehicle burns (114)

Garage burns during charging – (119) Extensive pictures

2 fiires in 2 weeks (120)

Charging battery in plane fire with 109 – posts 97&99 (121)

Charging 3000mah with Triton catches fire in garage- (122)

Pack in plane ignites while being charged under hood of truck (123)

Fire in Basement – (136)

Lipo catches fire during charging and continues to burn in salt water (138)

Lipo charging in Helicopter ignites burning carpet, drapes and Heli (141)

FIRE FROM PACK DAMAGE:

Cell poked with exacto knife catches fire- (2)

Dog bites pack, pack catches fire (4)

Lexus burns after pack from crashed plane put in car. (8)

Ballooned pack ignites when punctured. (20)

Repaired pack catches fire when connected to plane. (29)

Pack catches fire after plane crashes. (37)

Pack cut while shrink wrapping (39)

Pack punctured during crash burns. (64)

Plane crashes, pack removed and 10 minutes later burns (65)

Battery pack at 1V ignites while charging (71)

Puffed pack ignites during charging – (77)

Puffed Pack smokes when punctured (79)

Nicked pack catches fire (87)

Plane crashes, battery catches fire (89)

Damaged pack catches fire – (90)

Dog chews pack, chars pillow and smokes house - (95)

Battery compartment screw penetrates pack causing loss of plane (102)

Pack balloons dring mischarge, ignites when punchured (108)

Pack ignites 20 min after Heli crash – (111)\

Nicked pack “explodes in modelers hand” (116)

Intentionally punctured LiPo burns (124)

Dented Heli pack burns i min after disconnecting- (137)

Poked Lipo burst into flame (140)

BATTERY SHORTED FIRES:

Shorted pack catches fire (26)

Pack burns after shorting (15)

Possible Short (38)

Shorted when moved on table – (42)

Pack Shorted putting connector on and burns – (45)

Shorted pack burns hole in BMW seat – (48)

Crash causes 3s pack to short and burn – (50)

Pack ignites sometime after connector shorted for a short time (85)

Lipo Shorted for 4 sec. 3 min later it burns (143)

CAUSE UNDETERMINED:

Multi cell pack catches fire in flight (5)

Possible over discharge (33)

Lipo pack catches fire in car (60)

2s pack starts house fire (84)

In flight F3A fire reported (92)

New pack partially burns sitting on desk (96)

Pack ignites with no known cause (97)

Pack ignites after soldering wires on (101)

Pack catches fire in pick up truck (105)

In Air ignition – (125)

Pack ignites in pocket (132)

Pack ignites in car at 3AM (134)

OTHER

2s pack connected in series with 3s pack ignites in fireball (78)

Lipo burns garage (99)

Packs used in parallel catch fire in flight (110)

Too high current draw causes fire (128)

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread....09187&pp=15

 

[Darin Jordan]

Small LiPoly pack fire image below
List from just one forum of LiPoy fires

...

That's it... I move that we end this entire RC hobby right now... it's FAR too dangerous...

This list has been around for quite some time... who can vouch for it's accuracy?

Could someone please detail the incidents over the last two years of FE boats running Lipos that have exploded, burned to the waterline, or otherwise experienced a Lipo related fire?? Do the same for NimH...

Tower Hobbies and my Local Hobby Shop must be quaking in their collective incorporated boots... How dare they even THINK of selling this kind of "lethal" techology to the general public... :blink:

By the way... did I tell you about the time that the plane from the RC Flying field crash landed into the neighbors house??? I think we should do away with flying as well... :unsure:

This is the kind of "chicken little" alarmism that is hard to understand... Thanks for being so concerned about everyone and taking it upon yourself to make up for their inability to act responsibly...

 

[Don Ferrette]

Darin it's not alarmism it's the unfortunate byproduct of a litigation happy society. If that weren't the case Paul and others wouldn't have bothered with that little LLC detail. Hey I don't like it either.

 

[sjslhill]

Just posting the data......not saying ban them. Maybe there won't be a fire in NAMBA in 2007, I hope there is not. But that fire image you see is an 11003S I think, what will a 500010S do? You can mock all you want, if someone gets badly burned, maybe you can look back on your sarcasm and think differently.

Small LiPoly pack fire image below
List from just one forum of LiPoy fires

...

That's it... I move that we end this entire RC hobby right now... it's FAR too dangerous...

This list has been around for quite some time... who can vouch for it's accuracy?

Could someone please detail the incidents over the last two years of FE boats running Lipos that have exploded, burned to the waterline, or otherwise experienced a Lipo related fire?? Do the same for NimH...

Tower Hobbies and my Local Hobby Shop must be quaking in their collective incorporated boots... How dare they even THINK of selling this kind of "lethal" techology to the general public... :blink:

By the way... did I tell you about the time that the plane from the RC Flying field crash landed into the neighbors house??? I think we should do away with flying as well... :unsure:

This is the kind of "chicken little" alarmism that is hard to understand... Thanks for being so concerned about everyone and taking it upon yourself to make up for their inability to act responsibly...

 

[Darin Jordan]

Darin it's not alarmism it's the unfortunate byproduct of a litigation happy society. If that weren't the case Paul and others wouldn't have bothered with that little LLC detail. Hey I don't like it either.

I hear you Don and Steve... but we can't just stop what we LOVE to do... we need to educate and take precautions instead...

Lipo sacks are only about $30.00... Buckets of sand are cheap... the proper fire extinguishers can be expensive... but using common sense is priceless... If only we could legislate that somehow...

 

[Don Ferrette]

I hear you Don and Steve... but we can't just stop what we LOVE to do... we need to educate and take precautions instead...
Lipo sacks are only about $30.00... Buckets of sand are cheap... the proper fire extinguishers can be expensive... but using common sense is priceless... If only we could legislate that somehow...

Now THIS is a post I TOTALLY agree with. Thank you Darin. B)

 

[sjslhill]

Forget the Lipo sacks...they burn through at 2100-3S.....the rest is good.

thanks,

Steve

I hear you Don and Steve... but we can't just stop what we LOVE to do... we need to educate and take precautions instead...
Lipo sacks are only about $30.00... Buckets of sand are cheap... the proper fire extinguishers can be expensive... but using common sense is priceless... If only we could legislate that somehow...

Now THIS is a post I TOTALLY agree with. Thank you Darin. B)

 

[Jeff]

Don, first of all, thee internet is like tv. Do not believe everything you see, you will be fooled.Second please do a google search on car fires, far more than lipo fires but I bet you drive every day. Your behavior then becomes counter productive to society. How dare you drive when there is a chance of fire. Some firemen might get hurt responding or someone run off the road because of your selfish bahavior. Look in the mirror, what kind of person are you!

See how twisted we can make anything. Just because things happen doesn't mean it is the norm.

Jeff

 

[Don Ferrette]

Don, first of all, thee internet is like tv. Do not believe everything you see, you will be fooled.Second please do a google search on car fires, far more than lipo fires but I bet you drive every day. Your behavior then becomes counter productive to society. How dare you drive when there is a chance of fire. Some firemen might get hurt responding or someone run off the road because of your selfish bahavior. Look in the mirror, what kind of person are you!See how twisted we can make anything. Just because things happen doesn't mean it is the norm.

Jeff

I'll give this the attention it deserves.

Some of you have a very short memory. Let's go back to the lawsuit IMPBA faced when a guy turned on his radio without the freq. clip in his posession. Just so happens he got hit by an out of control boat on the same frequency that was running. Took a few years for IMPBA to dig out of that one even though he caused the accident himself. Liability & litigation, two words that unfortunately many of you still need to become familar with. Get your heads out of the sand & cover your asses instead, all it takes is one time..... <_<

 

[Jeff]

Well APBA got sued for fifty thou when some one was drinking and fell into a bonfire at the campground next to the pits, also got sued for fifeteen thou when someone fell in the porta john. They still have porta johns at the races I go to.

Jeff

 

[AlanN]

Gee sorry honey...can't go to work today...I might get into a car accident, hurt someone and get sued.

Nope....not gonna live my life afraid of potential dangers. Take precaution but not gonna run away and hide.

If any of you nitro/gas guys want some experienced opinions of us FE'ers running with you guys contact some of the Performance Model Boat Club members.

 

[Tim_Duggan]

I was the one that raised the weight comparison, not Don.

The reason I mentioned it was because there was talk about the voltage advantage of LiPo, and was not aware if the other parties in the conversation knew that the LiPo's are also lighter than the comparitive sub C's - another clear advantage IMO.

Sorry if it caused any grief.

 

[John Knight]

Gee sorry honey...can't go to work today...I might get into a car accident, hurt someone and get sued.
Nope....not gonna live my life afraid of potential dangers. Take precaution but not gonna run away and hide.

If any of you nitro/gas guys want some experienced opinions of us FE'ers running with you guys contact some of the Performance Model Boat Club members.

Alan,

Actually all of the racers that attended the Charleston Model Boaters race this past October were treated to some excellent FE racing by the world record holding Hammerhead H2O Racing Team from FL. And we hope to see much more at our National Outboard Tunnel Championships in March 2007 when we have 2 FE OB classes being offered. Hopefully a good foothold in the southeast for FE racing is being created. Come join us.

Merry Christmas to all.

John