.45 outboard "stock" class?

[HTV Boats]

People are outcrying to get a manufacturer with no interst to make a product. Is there another one on the horizon? probably not but then who knows. Are there .45 motors out there that can be adapted? yep. Nova-Rossi doesn't make an outboard but there are sure a lot of .21 Nova OB's. The .21 class is doing very well without much K&B presence. (sorry Robin no offense) You can order a Rossi or Nelson today that will fit K&B Hyperformance or Lawless lowers. OMG Nelson a made in the USA motor. A lot of classes may be obsolete in few years so just kill them now and go to FE? Nitro has options other than CMB and the plug may be halfway out so whats wrong with trying to push it back in for a while.

Mic

 

[RodneyPierce]

Mic, I totally agree with you. There is nothing wrong with FE, it just doesnt do it for me as far as boats are concerned. If nitro ends, so will my boating. I support you in what your trying to do here. Have a run with it brother.

 

[Don Ferrette]

People are outcrying to get a manufacturer with no interst to make a product. Is there another one on the horizon? probably not but then who knows. Are there .45 motors out there that can be adapted? yep. Nova-Rossi doesn't make an outboard but there are sure a lot of .21 Nova OB's. The .21 class is doing very well without much K&B presence. (sorry Robin no offense) You can order a Rossi or Nelson today that will fit K&B Hyperformance or Lawless lowers. OMG Nelson a made in the USA motor. A lot of classes may be obsolete in few years so just kill them now and go to FE? Nitro has options other than CMB and the plug may be halfway out so whats wrong with trying to push it back in for a while.

Mic

Ok let's keep this on the up and up Mic as now you are generalizing nitro for the sake of arguing and attempting to justify one motor class of outboard that is DEAD manufacturing wise. Last I heard Nelson isn't interested in doing any more marine motors (there's only a few out there anyways) and even if they were readily available how many are going to spend that much coin to hang a Nelson on a Lawless to run a "Superstock" class???? I might feel differently if there was a current readily available mainstream production of at least one 7.5 o/b complete assembly (powerhead, muffler and lower unit) but there's not. Chris in my opinion has offered the only viable option in modifying an existing class to suit what you are wanting to do. To create a new class for something that's not supported en mass by the manufacturers is unjustified, we need classes that are supported, not ones that are made by what's laying around collecting dust and not made anymore. If by some miracle of miracles production of a complete 7.5 were to return it might be worth considering but until such a time it just makes zero sense. Sorry if some of you don't like it and I mean no offense to anyone but that's how I feel.

 

[moparbarn]

i applaud & agree with what mic is trying to accomplish here. but i also agree with chris & don that a new class prolly isn't the best option. what i believe really needs done is for namba, impba & opc rules to be brought more into line with each other to help keep rc boating in ALL forms healthy. that could only make it reasier for boaters to race at any event they choose, not just what set of rules their boat fits. yes to a super stock/outlaw type class, this is the best possible way to allow the most .45 tunnels run, imho. last year in d-12, we had a strong .45 tunnel class. this year, a few folks moved away, it's become open tunnel. i know i've given away a TON of .45 k&b stuff that happened to come in "box lots" of parts i bought. i don't look for them, & i have quite a few now, they're out there, you just have to buy them........

 

[Mark Poole ModVP]

For those who have been fans (and particpants) of lifesize outboard racing, virtually the same thing happened to the most popular OPC classes. The old E production and J production classes that were based on the Evinrude 3 cylinder and the Merc in line six engine were the most popular classes in racing with national participation. When they quit making those engines the classes went on for a while but eventually dried up. And just like us, the sanctioning bodies have been trying to come up with classes that can be filled without having strict engine restrictions that allow only one type of "stock" engine. Lets face it, IMPBA and NAMBA outboard classes were built on K&B from the mid 70's.

The E and J stock classes were always dominated by those who had access to engineers information and had the time and money to stockpile "matched" parts. I agree with several of the posts, that the rules should keep the engine displacement in place but open the configuration up to allow more than one brand of engine and exhaust system. Makes moe sense than letting the classes die because brand X won't build "production" engines.

Now, if you really want to see some renewed interest in outboards.....you take this Mod-VP class that we run down here and solidify the rules nationally so everyone is on the same page with it and it would work because it is FUN. So far, we have not found a way to take the fun out of it. :lol: But that is a subject for more discussion without hi jacking this one.

mark

 

[robertpickard]

To make this a class in Namba District 3 you have to make seven races i am sorry but i dont see it happening because no one in Brandon or Tampa area come down south we go up there but noone travels from up there with there outboards

 

[Rokieboater]

Here in Namba District 20 we run a .21 OPC super stock class. Its any power head, any lower and you must run a muffler. NO PIPES ALLOWED. It has kept the .21 class going here. We have MAC .21's on a OS lower using a canister muffler, racing a stock OS, racing a modded K&B SS. Many different combinations. Makes it easy for a beginner to buy any used 21 outboard equipment and have a less finicky boat. We have been doing it for 3 years now and no complaints. Its a great class!!!!!!

The class allows everyone to race adapting many different parts and allows the guys to race the modded tuned pipe class with a simple change. Two classes, one boat, one motor, one lower unit and just change an exhaust system.

We are talking about making the .45 class the same way. No reason to make a stock class when, by rule definition, no stock motors are being manufactured.

I would vote for eliminating the stock classes in outboard and making them a Super Stock class. Lets not make more classes but redefine our existing classes.

Robert

 

[HTV Boats]

Here in Namba District 20 we run a .21 OPC super stock class. Its any power head, any lower and you must run a muffler. NO PIPES ALLOWED. It has kept the .21 class going here. We have MAC .21's on a OS lower using a canister muffler, racing a stock OS, racing a modded K&B SS. Many different combinations. Makes it easy for a beginner to buy any used 21 outboard equipment and have a less finicky boat. We have been doing it for 3 years now and no complaints. Its a great class!!!!!!

The class allows everyone to race adapting many different parts and allows the guys to race the modded tuned pipe class with a simple change. Two classes, one boat, one motor, one lower unit and just change an exhaust system.

We are talking about making the .45 class the same way. No reason to make a stock class when, by rule definition, no stock motors are being manufactured.

I would vote for eliminating the stock classes in outboard and making them a Super Stock class. Lets not make more classes but redefine our existing classes.

Robert

[/quote

Robert,

Thanks for the info and it appears your district is somewhat ahead of where I have been trying to go. For the record I agree that modifying the existing NAMBA class is the logical first step. One thing is I respect the clubs actually running this class on the West coast and do not want to step on their toes if the want to keep the existing motor rules. Be nice to hear perspective from Districts 8-9-19.

Mic

 

[HTV Boats]

Don,

Keeping this on the up and up, do you have something against me personally? I currently run and know outboards pretty well and if .45's are as dead as you seem to think I must be racing against Zombies. This whole hobby/sport thrives on guys creating their own hardware and making things. How many classes of racing have complete motor/drive trains from one source. What this is about it growing something with existing equipment and the more expensive option of buying new is still out there. I have seen many other types of racing keep costs down and leveling competition being creative with equipment options. The person who may suppport this class is not an RTR candidate. It is a guy who likes OB tunnels and the chalenges they offer.

Your info on Nelson motors is based on rumors. Ask Jim Allen as he is very good friends with Henry. As for costs a Nelson is less than $100 more than a Rossi which your going to spend time or $$$ getting it up to speed. The Nelson does not "need" to be modified it comes that way.

I have seen more than one CMB outboard conversion with a can adapted on a lawless and thats about as expensive as you can get.

What you have accomplished is make me think twice about getting involved. This class will survive at Charleston and in the SE. If we can link into west coast tunnels with common rules thats would be great. Your not wanting "new" classes or at least a new outboard class is noted. We have different opinions obviously.

Mic

 

[Geraghty]

People are outcrying to get a manufacturer with no interst to make a product. Is there another one on the horizon? probably not but then who knows. Are there .45 motors out there that can be adapted? yep. Nova-Rossi doesn't make an outboard but there are sure a lot of .21 Nova OB's. The .21 class is doing very well without much K&B presence. (sorry Robin no offense) You can order a Rossi or Nelson today that will fit K&B Hyperformance or Lawless lowers. OMG Nelson a made in the USA motor. A lot of classes may be obsolete in few years so just kill them now and go to FE? Nitro has options other than CMB and the plug may be halfway out so whats wrong with trying to push it back in for a while.

Mic

Ok let's keep this on the up and up Mic as now you are generalizing nitro for the sake of arguing and attempting to justify one motor class of outboard that is DEAD manufacturing wise. Last I heard Nelson isn't interested in doing any more marine motors (there's only a few out there anyways) and even if they were readily available how many are going to spend that much coin to hang a Nelson on a Lawless to run a "Superstock" class???? I might feel differently if there was a current readily available mainstream production of at least one 7.5 o/b complete assembly (powerhead, muffler and lower unit) but there's not. Chris in my opinion has offered the only viable option in modifying an existing class to suit what you are wanting to do. To create a new class for something that's not supported en mass by the manufacturers is unjustified, we need classes that are supported, not ones that are made by what's laying around collecting dust and not made anymore. If by some miracle of miracles production of a complete 7.5 were to return it might be worth considering but until such a time it just makes zero sense. Sorry if some of you don't like it and I mean no offense to anyone but that's how I feel.

Good idea to keep this on the up and up...... ......These remarks should start the xxxxstorm........ .

Outboarders over the years have been handed the short end of the stick from the IMPBA powers to be when it came to the promotion of nitro "outboard" boat racing......That is what has precipitated the "Tunnel World Championships" race in SC.....and going away that race has been a resounding success.....That race is to outboards what Hobart is to riggers.....

Even at the Internats the outboarders have been treated like the "Black Sheep" boaters of the IMPBA.....Every year the largest [or next to the largest ] class at the Internats has always been the Sport.21 tunnel class and hell that class has only been around in the IMPBA since 1996....If any class should have been a US-1 class it should be the Sport.21 tunnel class......I have never seen 30+ twins,F monos,E hydros etc,etc etc..... at any internats I have attended.....Tradition and a successful boat race are not necessarily good bed fellows......I.E.....It took years to shove Sport40 into the US-1 rotation.....

Unfortunately,this governing approach is systemic to just about all membership run organizations,but that is another subject for another time........

That being said.......

You do know,there is another way to look at this.......The classes we [The IMPBA] should encourage,promote and support should be the classes that show up with the most boats to race,no matter if they are supported by the motor manufacturers or not......once again I reference the World Tunnel Championships......The outboarders are out there are mobilized......

IMO.the end result should be the point of focus.........after all,we are a "boat racing organization"....right????....

That being the case lets carry this to the next logical conclusion....there is a pretty strong contingent of Sport.21 outboards currently being campaigned in virtually every district in the IMPBA.....

Everyone of these "outboarders" is a candidate for an .45SS [un-piped] sport tunnel class of some sort......There are a bunch of 7.5 boat manufacturers out there already so half the problem is solved and only God knows how many 7.5 K&B outboards out there that are not being used or show up daily on ebay just waiting to be tapped......To a died in the wool "outboarder"I don't even think $$$$ is a problem.......Just make the rules simple and inclusive and boats will start to show up.....

It is obvious that NAMBA will also eventually be forced to adapt rules very similar to the IMPBA Sport .21 Tunnel rules......In fact, IMPBA and NAMBA will eventually be forced to drop the "all parts must be made by the same manufacturer " provision to their Tunnel rules........All you need for "Sport Tunnel" racing is a set of go no-go gauges for intake and exhaust , pipes or no pipes and build em' and bring em' and eventually you would have a gaggle of outboards at most races.......The interest is already there,all the "outboarders" need is a venue.......

 

[Don Ferrette]

Don,

Keeping this on the up and up, do you have something against me personally? I currently run and know outboards pretty well and if .45's are as dead as you seem to think I must be racing against Zombies. This whole hobby/sport thrives on guys creating their own hardware and making things. How many classes of racing have complete motor/drive trains from one source. What this is about it growing something with existing equipment and the more expensive option of buying new is still out there. I have seen many other types of racing keep costs down and leveling competition being creative with equipment options. The person who may suppport this class is not an RTR candidate. It is a guy who likes OB tunnels and the chalenges they offer.

Your info on Nelson motors is based on rumors. Ask Jim Allen as he is very good friends with Henry. As for costs a Nelson is less than $100 more than a Rossi which your going to spend time or $$$ getting it up to speed. The Nelson does not "need" to be modified it comes that way.

I have seen more than one CMB outboard conversion with a can adapted on a lawless and thats about as expensive as you can get.

What you have accomplished is make me think twice about getting involved. This class will survive at Charleston and in the SE. If we can link into west coast tunnels with common rules thats would be great. Your not wanting "new" classes or at least a new outboard class is noted. We have different opinions obviously.

Mic

Have something against you personally? Absolutely not Mic, that's beyond ridiculous other than perhaps that you're trying to make it personal???? What I do have a problem with is creating a class that has no visible support for future growth. I'm not in any way shape or form against o/b tunnels as like I said before I used to run them and 7.5 was a blast (did you miss that part?). We are constantly being pushed to allow new classes and to me it's a "show me the money" thing now especially after the sport 20 fiasco. That was supposed to huge!! The next best thing since sliced bread!! It's supporters clamored on and on so it was created yet here we are with what has never been more than a sporadic turn out at best and it has a multitude of current engine options readily available. It seemed you chose to overlook the idea of changing an existing class to make it work and prove it viable that both Chris and I suggested but then you agree with Robert saying basically the same thing?? Alter the existing class, show the numbers, put some real cards on the table then perhaps re-approach it's own gig IF the numbers back it up. And I'll say right here right now if the numbers are there I'll back it 100%!! Smart money says it won't but hey I've been wrong before.....

 

[HTV Boats]

So far the possibility of changes to present NAMBA B-OPC motor rule seem to be acceptable. The rules were written with good intentions but did not take into consideration the demise of K&B and OEM parts availiability. IMPBA has no official stock/sport "D" class yet some local pockets are growing.

The main objection seems to be not another class. Any new class deserves scrutiny but when it appears to be growing anyway should not we take a look. A statement their is "no visible visible support for future growth" was made. Not limited,not minimal just "no". Pointed out was existing shelf stock from what was possibly the largest supplier of nitro engines in this hobby and new eqipment is availible but then it's "how many will spend that much coin to run "Superstock" class???" Which is it Don "NO" or "Too expensive" for a lowly outboard class? What has the ammount of money one person might spend have to do with any class we happen to like? If our wives knew half of what we spent we'd all be in trouble. Is it just your oppinion which by the way is still welcome, or what is your objective? Crush an idea you don't agree with in a class you once ran. Are you protecting IMPBA or Dist 12 or the general boating public from the dreaded outboard classes. All that I tried to do was suggest a class that the two national organizations could share identical rules. Is that so bad?? If it make you happy I will stay out of any future IMPBA effort but this class may still be run locally.

Mic

 

[John Knight]

I can see both points of view. Adding more classes nationally and trying to get the class some momentum. I was involved in the initial creation of the Sport D Tunnel class from the very first start. When Gabe Clegg, Don Gilbert and myself started the Charleston Model Boaters club in October 2004, we spoke about the tunnel classes. I recommended that we start the WTC race (yeah I am a rigger racer but started over 20 years ago with a 20 mod tunnel) and we addressed the 40 stock class. We all knew that K&B cannot be the sole supplier of the power plant because of the limitations of them and then the availability too. We could not rely on them for the complete engines that the Sport B (20) class has now. So we crafted the class for the race as any .45 engine, any lower, any carb but no pipes, period and called it the Sport D tunnel class. It helped create some innovation with engines, lowers, conversion of IB to OB's etc. Those decisions has helped develop the class and the numbers have reflected it. The class entries for the WTC race has dropped each of the past 2 years but so has every class too because of the crappy economy. But the race has shown the numbers are there.

I too would like to see a uniform set of rules for the class with both IMPBA & NAMBA. Let's concentrate our efforts on doing that and then try and continue to build up the class. If that means modifying existing classes so be it. Remember the goal for the effort. Using the complete K&B engine as the sole power plant and lower will not work and will kill the class before it even gets started. The CMB club will likely continue with the same rules we created for the class some years back. Some call it "outlaw" 40 tunnel class but I call it "ALL GOOD".

Keep in mind the focus of the effort guys!

 

[LarryConrad]

I wish the 7.5 tunnels were more popular, but it seems to be a very limited regional thing. The local club in the area of the country where I live has more than enough members that own them to make a 3 boat heat at every race, and the club holds on average about 6 races a season. In the 4 seasons that I attempted to race D tunnel at TCMBC there were only enough entries to make class at about 6 races. I brought my boat to more races where it never left the stand than I ever had an opportunity to race it, and missed a few opportunities to run against some top notch competition because I chose to leave it at home to make room in my car for boats that I knew in advance would have enough entries to make class. The tuned pipe is not the reason the class is nearly extinct, it is the very limited availability of suitable power plants at what most boaters I have questioned about the subject consider a reasonable cost. Lots of good hulls available though.

 

[Don Ferrette]

So far the possibility of changes to present NAMBA B-OPC motor rule seem to be acceptable. The rules were written with good intentions but did not take into consideration the demise of K&B and OEM parts availiability. IMPBA has no official stock/sport "D" class yet some local pockets are growing.

The main objection seems to be not another class. Any new class deserves scrutiny but when it appears to be growing anyway should not we take a look. A statement their is "no visible visible support for future growth" was made. Not limited,not minimal just "no". Pointed out was existing shelf stock from what was possibly the largest supplier of nitro engines in this hobby and new eqipment is availible but then it's "how many will spend that much coin to run "Superstock" class???" Which is it Don "NO" or "Too expensive" for a lowly outboard class? What has the ammount of money one person might spend have to do with any class we happen to like? If our wives knew half of what we spent we'd all be in trouble. Is it just your oppinion which by the way is still welcome, or what is your objective? Crush an idea you don't agree with in a class you once ran. Are you protecting IMPBA or Dist 12 or the general boating public from the dreaded outboard classes. All that I tried to do was suggest a class that the two national organizations could share identical rules. Is that so bad?? If it make you happy I will stay out of any future IMPBA effort but this class may still be run locally.

Mic

This is getting beyond absurd as either you seem to totally miss what I'm saying or are doing your very best to completely twist what I said 180. So let's try this one last time .....

- it's a really simple three step program -

step 1- tweak a current class to create the place for it

step 2- show the numbers and prove that what you say might happen does

step 2- write the class rules and submit them

And actually the place to showcase them is ALREADY THERE in the regular D outboard class. While they may run at a disadvantage the stage is present to show the numbers and prove that it's a worthwhile thing to seriously consider. Will they get trounced by the mods? Perhaps but it sure seems like small price to pay to show the legitimacy of creating a class for them (but then again I sure enjoyed watching Kentley Porter smoke the B mods with his B stock tunnel last year so who knows). Or are you just not willing to make the sacrifice of knowing you might get your butt handed to you by the mods to show people these boats are there in sufficient numbers to warrant their own class on a national level?

And just because it's popular at the WTC is not enough, we need to see them elsewhere on a regular basis.

Hmmm, sure seems real simple to me. Show the numbers and prove it has merit and worth. What does that do? It makes sure that the endeavor is worth it for the boaters AND the IMPBA in that we have a class that will support itself throughout the organization. Sorry if you may not like it that way but like the saying goes, talk is cheap. You think this is going to be a great thing? Good for you, show the numbers and make everyone believers.

And for the last time....... if you can show that the class has the numbers to make viable I'll back it 100% guaranteed. How much more plainly can it be said?

 

[HTV Boats]

Points 1 2 & 2 are acceptable. Do not have a problem myself or Jay promoting and showing up to races with out a tuned pipe. Here in Florida if everyone shows up the level of competition is such your not going to survive in mod 40 with a stocker. Were not going to a major race handicapped. We have some stockers that like Kently's boat would tear up mod classes in most of the country. These are the few elite exceptions. To ask an average new boater to build equipment for a sure ass kicking is not going to promote any class. The limitations of a regulated class are intended to level the playing field a bit. Much easier to sell the idea of a boat that has it's own class and the ability to step up to a more difficult one. Many of the .21 stockers do well as the boats finish easier not having speed beyond the hulls capabilities. The cream will still rise. Some of the mod guys here have said they like stock as it makes it more of a drivers class. Many are runniong both. Hard to get a unilateral treaty to all put down their big guns. Thats why some run both. And to the guy who's done his homework with tuned pipe he deserves the toughest competators.

I am not familiar with the Sport 20 fiasco, does having 2 20 hydro classes on the books diminish either. That would be my only concern in building a format. Rather than adding boaters do we divide and weaken the system? A tunnel can run in the hydro class and we have done it to make numbers at times. We have held our own with a good start but eventually just get in the way. When only two hydros show up their happy to see us. In an 8 boat heat we are roadblocks. If a good running stocker wants to run mod all the better but if he's a potential boat to get lapped not so good.

The boats will run and time will tell.

John you are the hydro guy who holds his own in what IMO may be the toughest most competative class 21 mod tunnel. The other and maybe the toughest class in RC is 21 hydro. Hats off to the guy who masters both high speed delicate handling classes.

Mic

 

[John Knight]

Mic,

Thanks for the kind words. The 21 classes, are without a doubt, the most difficult classes to run and excel in. There is no excess power and setups are ultra critical and that is before you even put them in the water. I spend alot of time with all my boats and enjoy my 21 and 45's the most of all. But the brute power of the 90's are high on the pucker factor and that is fun too!!

We are blessed on having a lot of 40 mod tunnels and a good amount of Sport 40 tunnels as well in this region. Other areas are not so blessed and struggle just to make class on 40 tunnels, regardless of the power plant. That is what needs to change before the class can be made nationally and is what Don is stating. Hopefully we have planted the seed for it to happen but it shall take time.

John

 

[Beau Parsons]

Just a thought what if they made a stock O.S. MAX 45 outboard, with the popularity of the favored .21 O.S. max outboard this would be awesome, but will probably never happen. If there were more choices and distributors this class would maybe grow and be more competitive.

 

[topfuel443]

I have read all the replies, and honestly dont have a lot to add to the discussion. I will say that I agree with some of Don's points, although they seem a bit narrow in my opinion. But in the same breath, the SE region is not an honest sample of nationwide interest in classes. I get the fact that we have a very large tunnel following down here (and love it...believe me), but its not like that everywhere. In saying that, I am not sure adding this class would be in the best interest of IMPBA on a grand scale. It DOES however makes sense to come up with (or continue?) with our own regional set of rules, whether it be IMPBA or NAMBA that will allow us to continue running and growing this exciting class. there are PLENTY of .45 options. You may have to get crafty, and you may have to do a little thinking outside the box, but the options are there. This (limited modified - what I would call it) class is probably not for the new boater, I dont think anyone suggests that. It is however a very challenging class due to the pipe limitations, which does and will continue to pique the interest of outboarders.

I agree with Mic.

I agree with Don.

I agree with John.

My opinion:

The outlaw .45 class works and works good "down here". We should focus the class more regionally instead of trying to mainstsream it on a national level.

 

[RonShaw]

You just sparked my interest!!!!! Keep me posted on availability of K&B parts!!! The Atlanta Race was awesome. Glad to be back!!!!

Ron