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anthony_marquart

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Nov 4, 2003
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No bailout yet because the UAW won't move on wages,..

This is killing me,... at least the government won't to pay people 4x their worth for 50 years...
 
easy there. i'm uaw and i don't make the big bucks. you know the other side had to agree on wages and benifits. don't believe anyone had a gun to their heads. i know we never did. just like to have a fair wage. not getting one now.
 
I don't mean to be nasty Steve... Everyone deserves a fair wage.. It just seems like the UAW has caused at lot of problems for the big 3, and now even more...

easy there. i'm uaw and i don't make the big bucks. you know the other side had to agree on wages and benifits. don't believe anyone had a gun to their heads. i know we never did. just like to have a fair wage. not getting one now.
 
easy there. i'm uaw and i don't make the big bucks. you know the other side had to agree on wages and benifits. don't believe anyone had a gun to their heads. i know we never did. just like to have a fair wage. not getting one now.
well said steve..too many know it all suits on them fancy chairs in them air conditioned offices, doing squat for "huge" paychecks..and while the workers making the real money.."not enough" sweat their butts off . it is really sickning to hear from the many on here complaining about how much union workers make..they really do not have a clue.they need to try like us at case and have the corrupt ones decide our fate..and then we get ousted out the door..not the union there..just the company worring about themselves and their profit .what a shame.

terry
 
I don't mean to be nasty Steve... Everyone deserves a fair wage.. It just seems like the UAW has caused at lot of problems for the big 3, and now even more...


easy there. i'm uaw and i don't make the big bucks. you know the other side had to agree on wages and benifits. don't believe anyone had a gun to their heads. i know we never did. just like to have a fair wage. not getting one now.
and let me ask you there anthony.. what and how do "you" decide someones "worth" and shouldnt someone who has busted their "backside" for the company be compensated for that ..or should they be forced to retire and be busted flatass broke and scabbing pop cans.. union is a way of life for some and a bargaining tool for all ..for all that care about their future. without union that is one less guarentee that you will have a job come monday.

terry
 
First, I never said I am the person to judge someones worth.

But I do know that when companies are forced to higher labor costs than companies they compete with, the companies paying the higher labor costs usually don't do well.

I've been a mechanical designer for 16 years,.. If I get a promotion it's because I did a good job. If I get fired it's because I didn't. If I get laid off it's because the company was poorly managed or the economy is bad. Does anyone owe me anything? not a **** thing,... should they? no,.. I deserve what I earn. I made the choice to take the job to begin with. If it was a bad choice, it was still my choice,... I did it. I could have done something else.. No one owes me anything...

If I retire with any money it will be because I saved it,.. not because I think someone owes it to me for working.

I get paid to do my job.. everything else is up to me,.. and I think that's the way it should be.

This "bargaining tool" is going to cost a lot of people there jobs.

and let me ask you there anthony.. what and how do "you" decide someones "worth" and shouldnt someone who has busted their "backside" for the company be compensated for that ..or should they be forced to retire and be busted flatass broke and scabbing pop cans.. union is a way of life for some and a bargaining tool for all ..for all that care about their future. without union that is one less guarentee that you will have a job come monday.

terry
 
Funny no one ever says anything about the CEO and the management that have the high saleries and corporate jets etc. etc. Thay are supposed to run the corporation like a real business.

It's easier to blame the unions and the people that do the labor.

Anthony, maybe you should look for a new employer.
 
Guys,

Plain and simple: The unions have to go. Sooner or later they are going to be gone one way or another anyway, since they are driving the major corperations of this country into the ground and stomping a mudhole into them. There is no kinder way of saying it than that. The unions have crushed one major manufacturing corperation after the next (remember when NCR made CASH REGISTERS?), and now they've got their sights set on the automotive industry.

I hate to say it (since I will NEVER own a foriegn car), but look at Toyota or Honda (for starters) for the obvious explaination. They pay their employees about the same as those at "the big three", they build a better product (in every aspect) for less money and they are going strong as ever. Why? One word. UNION. Or the lack there of, as it is.

I can't comment on Ford or Chrysler, but living in a GM town I know many people who either work for or have worked for GM or Delphi, and I can tell you that the unions are entirely responsible for the situation that GM and Delphi are in.

Rediculous wages are only the start, and YES, I think $16/hr for someone to stand on a line and drop a square peg in a round hole all day fully qualifies as rediculous. The sad thing is that most of them are making around $20-25/hr. Skilled trades (like Steve Wood) is something entirely different. They deserve closer to the $30/hr range, which they are not usually getting, thanks to the the unions homogonizing effect.

Then add in the "Labor Pool" insanity. The companies must maintain an overflow labor pool so that when 50% of the workforce decides not to show up for work (which is regularly the case) they have "back-up" workers. These back-up workers get paid almost their full wage to sit in a break room and wait to be assigned. If they don't get placed, they still get paid most of a full day's wages. The companies can't eliminate this attendance problem by just firing the workers who don't want to work because.... WHY? You guessed it, the unions won't let them. They can send them home (with pay, by the way), but the union will have them back on the floor within 24 hrs.

People are very eager to place blame on the excessive saleries of the executives, but they just don't get it. Don't get me wrong, the top executives (and many of the not-so-top executives) are payed WWWAAAAYYYYY too much. But lets face it, these saleries are a virtually insignificant slice of their total wage budget. They could totally eliminate these saleries and still not survive the thumb screws the unions are sticking to them.

The unions are only concerned with one thing: DUES. This is why they won't budge on the wages issue in Washington. They know that if they waver on wages, then these people who actually think they are worth what they are getting (which most are not) may look for a job elsewhere, and that elsewhere may not be a union shop, and there goes one emplouyee's union dues, out the door. They are only working to perpetuate their own existance. Anybody who truely believes otherwise is in serious danger of contracting a terminal case of cranial rectitus. Or at least acute sphincter face.......

What the "big three" needs to do is to shut their doors and start entirely new corperations. New designs, new real estate and new employees. And this time, refuse the unions any access. Im not sure if this is even possible, since the unions are in bed with the communists that are now truely in control of what we call a government, but we can dream, can't we?.......

Thanks. Brad.

Titan Racing Components

BlackJack Hydros
 
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Not that I agree with you Brad, I was willing to listen to your side. Until your last paragraph, your shiffing to much coolent fumes. :eek: :eek: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
 
Ray

I beleave Brad is wright.Living in a town with GM factorys and wacthing this town go under because of unions drive then out and it's not guest GM it was McCall's, NCR,

Dave Roach
 
Ray,

The way I see it, it's the only real solution. The corperations are no longer in control of their own future, the unions are. The problem is that the unions don't care about the corperations or the employees. If they did, they would be agreeing to anything it took to get this bail-out to move forward (not that I think the bail-out is a "save-all").

I don't think it could even happen, because of the relationship between the unions and liberal government. They seem to be able to keep each other in power.

It's an entirely new can of worms, but I will say this, too: The Unions are what made NAFTA necessary and successful. The corperations needed a way around the union down-bearing, and NAFTA made it all too easy.

Thanks. Brad.

Titan Racing Components

BlackJack Hydros
 
Guys,

One other thing: People like to gripe about the corperate executives and their saleries, but they never seem to have a problem with the saleries of the top operatives for the unions. Some of those guys are making millions (yes, I meant plural) and they don't contribute ANYTHING to society. They don't do anything except hinder the corperations ability to operate in a profitable manner.

This money comes straight out of our pockets when we buy a union built -ANYTHING-.

Something to chew on.......

Thanks. Brad.

Titan Racing Components

BlackJack Hydros
 
Well I hate to say it Ray, but I agree with Brad. However, I do feel strongly that unions have a purpose and a place. Where might that be? The "little guys" who work on a more individual or small group basis. Guys like pipe fitters, plumbers, carpenters, electricians, machinists and other skilled trades like these. It's these people who need the "strength in numbers" that a union can offer, not telling some corporation that the guy pushing the broom out on the production line floor gets $25 an hour or they all go on strike. The unions have crippled the auto industry with unthinkable debt that has finally caught up with the big three, there is no more "restructuring" to buy time, time's up. Now don't get me wrong, the corporate big wigs have just as much blame here but the fix is going to have to come from both sides of the table. I'd bet if you asked any UAW line worker (when there are no union thugs around to hear) what he'd rather have, a little less $$ and no union dues or nothing when the union drives the whole deal under like it just did last night on the bailout? We all know the true answer to that one.

And BTW- this is just the tip of the iceberg. If GM, Ford and Chrysler start going belly up just wait to see the bad side of the "trickle down" theory and what it does to the hundreds of thousands of those who work on the "support" part of the industry making stuff for the big 3 ..............
 
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American Medical Association and your state Bar Association are all unions. AND you will not practice medicine or law without belonging to one of these organizations.

Check out the meaning:

Main Entry: 1union

Pronunciation: \ˈyün-yən\

Function: noun

Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Late Latin union-, unio oneness, union, from Latin unus one — more at one

Date: 15th century

1 a: an act or instance of uniting or joining two or more things into one: as (1): the formation of a single political unit from two or more separate and independent units (2): a uniting in marriage ; also : sexual intercourse (3): the growing together of severed parts b: a unified condition : combination , junction <a gracious union of excellence and strength>

2: something that is made one : something formed by a combining or coalition of parts or members: as a: a confederation of independent individuals (as nations or persons) for some common purpose b (1): a political unit constituting an organic whole formed usually from units which were previously governed separately (as England and Scotland in 1707) and which have surrendered or delegated their principal powers to the government of the whole or to a newly created government (as the United States in 1789) (2)capitalized : the federal union of states during the period of the American Civil War ccapitalized : an organization on a college or university campus providing recreational, social, cultural, and sometimes dining facilities ; also : the building housing such an organization d: the set of all elements belonging to one or more of a given collection of two or more sets —called also join sum e: labor union

3 a: a device emblematic of the union of two or more sovereignties borne on a national flag typically in the upper inner corner or constituting the whole design of the flag b: the upper inner corner of a flag

4: any of various devices for connecting parts (as of a machine) ; especially : a coupling for pipes or pipes and fittings

Also your wife will not be happy if there is NO union.
 
Well I hate to say it Ray, but I agree with Brad. However, I do feel strongly that unions have a purpose and a place. Where might that be? The "little guys" who work on a more individual or small group basis. Guys like pipe fitters, plumbers, carpenters, electricians, machinists and other skilled trades like these. It's these people who need the "strength in numbers" that a union can offer, not telling some corporation that the guy pushing the broom out on the production line floor gets $25 an hour or they all go on strike. The unions have crippled the auto industry with unthinkable debt that has finally caught up with the big three, there is no more "restructuring" to buy time, time's up. Now don't get me wrong, the corporate big wigs have just as much blame here but the fix is going to have to come from both sides of the table. I'd bet if you asked any UAW line worker (when there are no union thugs around to hear) what he'd rather have, a little less $$ and no union dues or nothing when the union drives the whole deal under like it just did last night on the bailout? We all know the true answer to that one.
And BTW- this is just the tip of the iceberg. If GM, Ford and Chrysler start going belly up just wait to see the bad side of the "trickle down" theory and what it does to the hundreds of thousands of those who work on the "support" part of the industry making stuff for the big 3 ..............
I think if they wont bail even if they do its time to change management and the whole way auto makers do biz. Ive done a 20% trickle down cut in pay. I cant take more, time to cut the fat where the fat lays..................
 
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The hole DAM world well be better without a Union.

Dave Roach
 
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Lord knows I am not pro-union. that doesn't mean that I dont see a need for them say back in the forties and fifties.... maybe even into the early eighties. I see need for them in "contract" type jobs and some high risk jobs. there's a good place to be unionized.

but heres the thing... they have crippled our economy all the way around. and the "Big Wigs" are powerless to do anything about it except move jobs to countries where labor is cheaper..... not that they (big wigs) are not to blame, but in the whole of things the unions are a huge part of it.

remember when they wanted to raise the minimum wage??? then they did and it really didn't help??? and who were the big "special intrests" in congress that pushed it??? you got it unions. hmm seems everyone got a raise off that, that means nothing since the price of everything else had to go up because the little guy had no union to help him produce his milk..... or keep customers in his stores...

Another issue behind this whole "bail out" which is a terrible way to put it because it stirs fears and pushes the economy further down the crapper. is the way that the banks mishandled their "bailout" and congress is hanging this over the big three's heads.... doing what should have been done with the first $700b... put stipulations on it and make the heads of the corporations accountable for it.

for the record... I happen to know a company like mine that is unionized from talking to a friend who has about the same experience and skill set that I have, working in a similar type of area (economic and population type area) and same position in the union company. he makes $2 an hour more than I do. Pays 40% more than I do for health 20% more for dental with less coverage on both. not to mention he pays union dues.... as an added benefit I can directly talk to my boss about anything going on with my company... now tell me who got the better deal there??? companies can survive and give good benefits without a union if they want to. though I do miss the Union per-diem I got when I was on the road :p
 
I don't pretend to know everything about unions, I'm going off of my life experience. I started as an collision center painter, I think i was making $7/hr

my friend started at Chrysler no previous experience he is making $18/hr to work in their paint booth moving drums of paint. Hardly ever broke a sweat. 8 hr a day. Had a paid month off in the summer for retooling. If he wasn't an fool, he could have retire with full benefits. For moving 55 gallon paint drums around. I know i could have made the choice to go work there my self, and I'm not trying to whine but this isn't right , he should not make that much, he is clearly over paid.

As far a the buy-out goes, the big 3 aren't going anywhere, IF the situation is as bad as they make it out, some one will buy them and rebuild them, it is the basic of our economic system.
 
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As far a the buy-out goes, the big 3 aren't going anywhere, IF the situation is as bad as they make it out, some one will buy them and rebuild them, it is the basic of our economic system.
Bingo!

Mark
 
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Well I hate to say it Ray, but I agree with Brad. However, I do feel strongly that unions have a purpose and a place. Where might that be? The "little guys" who work on a more individual or small group basis. Guys like pipe fitters, plumbers, carpenters, electricians, machinists and other skilled trades like these. It's these people who need the "strength in numbers" that a union can offer, not telling some corporation that the guy pushing the broom out on the production line floor gets $25 an hour or they all go on strike. The unions have crippled the auto industry with unthinkable debt that has finally caught up with the big three, there is no more "restructuring" to buy time, time's up. Now don't get me wrong, the corporate big wigs have just as much blame here but the fix is going to have to come from both sides of the table. I'd bet if you asked any UAW line worker (when there are no union thugs around to hear) what he'd rather have, a little less $$ and no union dues or nothing when the union drives the whole deal under like it just did last night on the bailout? We all know the true answer to that one.
And BTW- this is just the tip of the iceberg. If GM, Ford and Chrysler start going belly up just wait to see the bad side of the "trickle down" theory and what it does to the hundreds of thousands of those who work on the "support" part of the industry making stuff for the big 3 ..............
I think if they wont bail even if they do its time to change management and the whole way auto makers do biz. Ive done a 20% trickle down cut in pay. I cant take more, time to cut the fat where the fat lays..................
i agree mike , it is the gettin fat on the hog jerks at the top that make millions in stock options a year..well i bet they wouldnt take a massive paycut tokeep it going, hell no they would just cash in and wash their hands of the whole deal..all these "gop" people on here and you can tell them who they are, well the bunch of them must have never had to work a hard day in their life..and probably been spoon fed like all rich whiney kids.

terry
 
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