Thoughts on the Stock Class rules

[osracer]

If you want to tear downs you could also do this. The first place engine is the only one eligible for tear down. This is only at the request of the second and third place boats. To initiate the request they have to put down $50 and allow their engine to also be torn down. This would eliminate almost all tear downs at events that have them.

 

[ChrisHerzog]

Has anyone actually done careful testing to see how much all these non stock changes make? What is reasonable to actually tech? I know how much a simple break in changes power. I also know how much power different pipes make. If you allow any pipe I bet the best will have a t least a 10% improvement over the worst. The best mod engines develop around 1 1/2 hp more than a stock Zenoah.

Show me actual test results with changes in all the exotic things you think matter in a stock engine and you will actually know what is important. As an example; does removing the seal springs add more power than a brake in? I bet not. That wold mean that all you need to do is measure the bore, stroke, and carb bore as well as checking visually for grinding in the cylinder. You wouldn't need to remove the engine from the boat. A quick stroke check on all motors in a heat as well as a water jacket diameter check will tell you if the bore and stroke are stock on all engines.

Lohring Miller

Good points. I’m not an engine guy and would rely on guys like you and Mark G to help fill in the blanks with what really matters and what does not. Again, calling it a Spec class gets rid of a lot of the BS. Like you pointed out it could be done much faster. I just don’t think it needs to be done for every heat, I was thinking just the winner at the end of the day.

 

[Mark Anderson]

Why would you tech at a local race? Tech records and Nats. Thats it. There is a protest process if you think someone is cheating. If your not going to put up the money, shut your mouth about cheating. You people are paranoid thinking all of your competitors are cheating. It's grown men playing with toy boats trying to win plastic trophies!

 

[ChrisHerzog]

That's the funniest thing I've read all day. It is going on and has been going on for some time.

The word “cheating” is extremely loose and subjective. What one person thinks is cheating means nothing to others. The more rules you have the worst the accusations get and it blows up to a huge headache. I personally feel the rules should be kept as simple as possible along with as few as possible. Check the few more important things and ignore the rest. Use the KISS rule as much as possible.

 

[Jeremyhines]

I’m new so dont beat me up too bad. I have read every word of this thread and have read both rule books on the subject. I feel rules should stay as they are. I am going to run so called stock class next year god willing and i can tell you all by the time a newbie buys a competing hull and hardware then navigates the pile of so called motor builders , you have couple thousand dollars in a boat. It’s expensive hobby. That being said i also plan on running modified. Keep the stock class so people like me have a chance to learn the ins and outs of racing. There’s lots to figure out and I’m not going to add cheating to the list. It doesn’t make any sense. Leave stock for the newbies and all others go race modified unless your scared you gonna look bad. Newbies need stock class.

 

[ChrisHerzog]

I’m new so dont beat me up too bad. I have read every word of this thread and have read both rule books on the subject. I feel rules should stay as they are. I am going to run so called stock class next year god willing and i can tell you all by the time a newbie buys a competing hull and hardware then navigates the pile of so called motor builders , you have couple thousand dollars in a boat. It’s expensive hobby. That being said i also plan on running modified. Keep the stock class so people like me have a chance to learn the ins and outs of racing. There’s lots to figure out and I’m not going to add cheating to the list. It doesn’t make any sense. Leave stock for the newbies and all others go race modified unless your scared you gonna look bad. Newbies need stock class.

Like you, I hope we can all enjoy some good racing next year. I also am looking forward to it and have started getting my stuff ready!
“Stock” motors are run in classes other then Stock Mono and Stock Cat. Aside from that Stock Mono and Thunderboat are as competitive as it gets. No one wants to do away with the class or the ability to run out the box motors. The goal with this post is to come up with a proposal to make things Faster, Simple and very Easy for racers to follow and understand as well as the guys putting on the race. To have procedures as simple as possible while working with in the intent of the rules. You can never make everyone happy and people will always be quick to get upset over nothing. It’s part of racing anything.

If you have questions about your new boats, set up questions or even racing questions, don’t be scared to ask. There are a lot of really good people on here that can help you out. There is a lot to learn but it’s a lot of fun. I have been learning about this stuff for well over 40 years now and it’s still fun to me.

 

[DPeterson]

Someone honed a cylinder to remove a blemish. Really? LOL.

I find it hard to believe a lot of guys don't understand what "Box Stock" means. I see no reason to change the rules. I see need for consistent enforcement. First guys start to run cut down cowls to cool the motors. No one shuts it down. Its eventually allowed and now the Classic Thunderboat class is a run what you brung mini version of sport hydro. Now guys are drilling out the stock cooling head nipples. Its allowed and now no longer stock. What's next? I guess honed cylinders and bat wings is next. Whether it effects performance or not - its a stock class. Enforce it!!

In my opinion there needs to be clear "standardized" and simple tech procedures for general races and clear "standardized" tech procedures for National events. The race brochure should communicate which level of tech procedure will be used, so the stock racer can decide if he/she wants to participate.

Then, a DQ is not a deterrent. You get a DQ, you lose your five dollar trophy and go home. Big deal. You get a DQ at a major event you should pay a fine and or be disqualified from racing for a period of time.

Consistent and standardized enforcement from club to club and from venue to venue will solve most of the issues with the stock racing concerns.

Doug

 

[scottmeyers]

From personal experience (having been one of the guys that has done it in other forms of racing, and still feel bad) I can tell you that there are always one or two really crafty guys who will tweak a stock motor into something that's hard to beat, and wreck the class.
Yes I know that props, tuning, and driving can still win, but if the goal is to maintain an inexpensive class in which newer racers can feel competitive, then you need a way to stop me and also to make it less interesting for the experienced racers.

This is what claimer rules are for. I won't spend all week in my shop massaging an engine just to have it go away at the next race. The claim needs to be cheap so that there is a real threat. Top three finishers are eligible, price is for out of the box stock motor, nothing more.
Someone earlier said that if someone claims my motor that there'll be two cheater motors running. Maybe, at first, but so what? The next weekend another guy will claim my motor and there'll be three. Think about it... Stock motor price... Anyone could buy it... Why would I keep doing that? I'll run a junker motor from now on, or go to a mod class where I belong.

 

[Duke Mordja]

That's the funniest thing I've read all day. It is going on and has been going on for some time.

The funny thing is we are playing with toy boats. If someone needs to cheat to feel good about a toy boat race, they have bigger issues that I hope they find help for.

Consistent checking the winners boats at race events should deter those cheaters out there.

 

[ChrisHerzog]

Someone honed a cylinder to remove a blemish. Really? LOL.

I find it hard to believe a lot of guys don't understand what "Box Stock" means. I see no reason to change the rules. I see need for consistent enforcement. First guys start to run cut down cowls to cool the motors. No one shuts it down. Its eventually allowed and now the Classic Thunderboat class is a run what you brung mini version of sport hydro. Now guys are drilling out the stock cooling head nipples. Its allowed and now no longer stock. What's next? I guess honed cylinders and bat wings is next. Whether it effects performance or not - its a stock class. Enforce it!!

In my opinion there needs to be clear "standardized" and simple tech procedures for general races and clear "standardized" tech procedures for National events. The race brochure should communicate which level of tech procedure will be used, so the stock racer can decide if he/she wants to participate.

Then, a DQ is not a deterrent. You get a DQ, you lose your five dollar trophy and go home. Big deal. You get a DQ at a major event you should pay a fine and or be disqualified from racing for a period of time.

Consistent and standardized enforcement from club to club and from venue to venue will solve most of the issues with the stock racing concerns.

Doug

Thanks for proving my entire argument!

 

[Don Ferrette]

The funny thing is we are playing with toy boats. If someone needs to cheat to feel good about a toy boat race, they have bigger issues that I hope they find help for.

Consistent checking the winners boats at race events should deter those cheaters out there.

Absolutely right Duke BUT sadly it has and does go on and it didn't just start with the gassers..........

 

[Jeff Burford]

Your making my point exactly. If we continue to tech motors, there has to be a better faster way.
One thought is to ask the guys racing in the class if they want the motors to be checked. If the majority doesn’t, there is no reason to do so and a winner is named. If they do only tech the first place boat and give the Tech’s 10 minutes to make a call. If he passes tech it’s over and If he is DQed move on to the 2nd place boat. To make it easy, come up with 5 or 6 items for the tech’s to check and that’s it.

As far as claiming goes, so long as it’s done at the end of the race after all the heats are done and a guy gets enough money to buy a new replacement, I don’t have a problem with that and see no reason why tech inspections and claiming can’t co-ex-exzist.

Hi Guys as a outsider looking in. In other sports that have stock class motors, one of the rules was no porting inside the engine. IE if the original casting marks were removed , or any other evidence, then its clear that is not a stock motor. All parts were by manufacturers part number, so everybody was running the same parts . Tech becomes easy.
Claiming would work if the rule was you supply a brand new motor when claiming someones engine. Surely if nobody is cheating then a second hand engine is not worth as much as a brand new one? The only guys who benefited were the dealers selling new engines.

 

[Hydro Junkie]

Guys, there is probably an easy way to spec check a motor, though it would cost some money for the tools. Since all of the motors in a stock race will be manufacture by probably no more than two or three companies, you would really only need three tools:

• A bore guage of the appropriate size
• A depth guage with sufficient depth capability
• A caliper

If someone's engine is in question, have the boat owner pull the jug and a race official do the following:

1. Visually inspect the jug and piston for obvious tampering
2. Take three bore readings (top, middle and bottom) of the inside of the jug
3. Take one reading of the inside depth of the jug
4. Measure the diameter of the piston

As I see it, the top and bottom bore readings should be within a few thousandths of factory specs (or a new jug/piston if that would work better) while the middle will probably show some wear from the ring. The depth should be fairly close to factory specs as well. Same goes with the piston, should be within a few thousandths of factory. Set a reasonable tolerance limit and, if the measurements are within tolerance, it's good to go. Obviously, this doesn't account for the stroke but that could be checked with the depth guage before pulling the jug if so desired by measuring the TDC and BDC through the spark plug hole.
I'll leave it up to everyone else as to how the process is initiated and who should be required to witness the inspection but, as I see it, there should also be some sort of penalty for making a false claim if the engine passes. I figure this would take no more than maybe 15 minutes, not counting reinstalling the jug and exhaust, depending on the boat's configuration. Let the flaming begin

 

[ChrisHerzog]

Guys, there is probably an easy way to spec check a motor, though it would cost some money for the tools. Since all of the motors in a stock race will be manufacture by probably no more than two or three companies, you would really only need three tools:

• A bore guage of the appropriate size
• A depth guage with sufficient depth capability
• A caliper

If someone's engine is in question, have the boat owner pull the jug and a race official do the following:

1. Visually inspect the jug and piston for obvious tampering
2. Take three bore readings (top, middle and bottom) of the inside of the jug
3. Take one reading of the inside depth of the jug
4. Measure the diameter of the piston

As I see it, the top and bottom bore readings should be within a few thousandths of factory specs (or a new jug/piston if that would work better) while the middle will probably show some wear from the ring. The depth should be fairly close to factory specs as well. Same goes with the piston, should be within a few thousandths of factory. Set a reasonable tolerance limit and, if the measurements are within tolerance, it's good to go. Obviously, this doesn't account for the stroke but that could be checked with the depth guage before pulling the jug if so desired by measuring the TDC and BDC through the spark plug hole.
I'll leave it up to everyone else as to how the process is initiated and who should be required to witness the inspection but, as I see it, there should also be some sort of penalty for making a false claim if the engine passes. I figure this would take no more than maybe 15 minutes, not counting reinstalling the jug and exhaust, depending on the boat's configuration. Let the flaming begin

That is exactly what I’m talking about. Have a procedure where the stroke is measured, pull the jug and measure the bore, then the piston. Visually do a quick look for any cutting on the piston or jug then look at the front seal and carb. If the front seal is in tact with no aftermarket bushing, the correct carb number with no obvious cutting the jug and piston looks to be not cut on and the bore and stroke are within the predetermined numbers, it’s a pass and it’s over. Like you said, in under 15 minutes and the motor doesn’t have to come out of the boat. If someone drills out some water fittings or hones their cylinder so what. I done even care if they change their bearing or screws, none of that crap should matter and is why the word Stock needs to be changed to Spec.
It’s something anyone can do, it’s fast, it’s easy, and it’s fair.

 

[dr gary turner]

Four pages of discussion on STOCK and HOW TO DEFINE the term, concept, implications, and class and NO uniform solution or definition.

The bottom line is that STOCK class is flawed and probably will always be flawed.

 

[Jeremyhines]

As a real world boat motor mechanic i can tell you what to do . First thing check the stroke using a simple wooden dowel down plug hole. Then pull jug and measure the bore where the ring rides, everything above and below that area doesn’t matter. Then you want to look at piston skirt to be sure its intact. Check those three things. Nothing else you do to that engine will not matter unless you mess with affore mentioned items. Oh and use wooden dowel to check carb opening . Simple go no go . it doesn’t need to be hard to do. You should be able to do these things in 10minutes or so. You’ll need a drill impact gun a hex bit and a caliper and two wooden dowels appropriate size. There ya go . Simple Easy.

 

[Tom Foley]

I like the claiming rule but I would have the guy claiming pay the price of a new motor and give you his motor also. He will really feel dumb when he gets beat by his old engine the next week. Point is, I think the people winning races are doing it with good set ups and good driving. I don’t think their is that much cheating going on, I think it’s guys getting beat that figure the only way that could happen is if someone was cheating.

You use the phrase "That much cheating " possibly lightly . Cheating is the ultimate slap in the face and means that person is a liar and an asshole in my book but that's just me .

 

[Don Ferrette]

Guys, there is probably an easy way to spec check a motor, though it would cost some money for the tools. Since all of the motors in a stock race will be manufacture by probably no more than two or three companies, you would really only need three tools:

• A bore guage of the appropriate size
• A depth guage with sufficient depth capability
• A caliper

If someone's engine is in question, have the boat owner pull the jug and a race official do the following:

1. Visually inspect the jug and piston for obvious tampering
2. Take three bore readings (top, middle and bottom) of the inside of the jug
3. Take one reading of the inside depth of the jug
4. Measure the diameter of the piston

As I see it, the top and bottom bore readings should be within a few thousandths of factory specs (or a new jug/piston if that would work better) while the middle will probably show some wear from the ring. The depth should be fairly close to factory specs as well. Same goes with the piston, should be within a few thousandths of factory. Set a reasonable tolerance limit and, if the measurements are within tolerance, it's good to go. Obviously, this doesn't account for the stroke but that could be checked with the depth guage before pulling the jug if so desired by measuring the TDC and BDC through the spark plug hole.
I'll leave it up to everyone else as to how the process is initiated and who should be required to witness the inspection but, as I see it, there should also be some sort of penalty for making a false claim if the engine passes. I figure this would take no more than maybe 15 minutes, not counting reinstalling the jug and exhaust, depending on the boat's configuration. Let the flaming begin

Once again you feel the need to waste a couple hundred keystokes on a class you don't run and clearly don't know about. Bore and stroke are and have not been the issue like we used to see on cheater nitro engines. Carb mods, port mods, milling/shaving/heating & compressing jug and any other way to raise compression are the main issues. Gas motors respond significantly to compression increases and to check these areas requires complete teardown and careful measuring. I mentioned jug mods but people are also milling the case halves to raise compession so that needs measuring as well. There is no easy way to do this and yes that 100% sucks. A number of years back at a very large well known race it was announced in advance there would be no post race teardowns in the Thunderboat class, I knew exactly where this would lead and they did not disappoint. A casual stroll through the pits and you could see mods not legal like zero drag seals and aluminum isolater blocks. The guys who ran stock motors were getting lapped by T-boats clearly running mod motors and running as fast as full on sport hydros.......

While I'm not a fan of it the simplest answer is a motor claim rule for whatever the current cost of an out of the box Zenoah goes for. This will also put a damper on those with enough $$ to buy a 1/2 dozen or more motors and hand fit parts for best fit. And yeah that makes a difference as well. Should be out of the box and in the boat.

 

[LohringMiller]

I believe at this year's NAMBA Nationals the stroke was checked on every gas engine in the hot pits before every heat. I know the electric motor size was checked on all limited class motors with a battery voltage check in all classes before every heat as well. These quick and simple checks will eliminate virtually all cheating that matters. I notice that the people who actually did this checking aren't posting on this thread. They have better things to do.

Lohring Miller

 

[Zimmerman]

Gosh ... how long does it take to pull an engine and re- install it. Make the two people involved in the protest trade engines and have a runoff. Winner takes all. Now no officials are tied up and the problem is solved in 5 minutes.