Thoughts on the Stock Class rules

[Randy Rapedius]

7 pages, 138 posts expressing concerns, proposing extensive solutions to fixing a flawed concept of stock classes and NO consensus on a solution or solutions.

It should become eventually apparent there is a problem with STOCK CLASS RACING, whether you are racing FROGS OR Ferrari’s.

Really? A flawed concept? Stock class racing is a problem?

LSG Stock classes are by far the most popular classes out of all IMPBA. These classes at the Gas Nats get filled within minutes upon registration being opened. If the stock classes are SO bad as you have said, then why are they so popular?

Is there room for tweaking the current rules to make them more clear and concise? Certainly, but to say the classes are flawed and a problem is utter nonsense.

 

[ChrisHerzog]

7 pages, 138 posts expressing concerns, proposing extensive solutions to fixing a flawed concept of stock classes and NO consensus on a solution or solutions.

It should become eventually apparent there is a problem with STOCK CLASS RACING, whether you are racing FROGS OR Ferrari’s.

There are no easy solution that you will get a consensus on with all this Doc. It’s racing and guys are passionate about how they feel. I get it and you have been racing long enough to get it also. I really don’t care how many pages it takes so long as guys stay focused on what we want the end result to be. There have been some good ideas and I would love to see more of them. We will get it sorted out but it’s going to take some time!!!

“edit”
I run both nitro and gas so I feel comfortable saying this to you. Racing nitro and racing gas boats are two totally different animals. Yea they are all RC boats that you need to dial in but the racing is different, the strategy is different. Many times a gas race is won in the mill before the start. With nitro, you can be **** near anywhere on the corse at the start of race and still have a good shot at winning the race. I suggest you give it a shot. Build a Thunderboat or a stock class mono and watch how many times you curse yourself out for going three feet off a bouy and have someone pass you by like it’s a Sunday walk. All the little things matter and the actual driving is a huge factor with gas boats. Build you a boat and start racing it and see how long you can stick to that class. Only then will you fully understand what’s going on here.

 

[Duke Mordja]

Advice to this thread, just follow the IMPBA rules and have fun racing. Simple as it gets. If you think you see a cheater, man up and file a protest. Section K of the rule book.

 

[ChrisHerzog]

Advice to this thread, just follow the IMPBA rules and have fun racing. Simple as it gets. If you think you see a cheater, man up and file a protest. Section K of the rule book.

Please read or reread post #130.

This thread is not about having fun or protesting. It is about coming up with a procedure to check engines. This way when someone protest someone else at any given event, the same SIMPLE check (procedure) can be done Consistently at any given IMPBA race by basically anyone within a few minutes. Hopefully we can come up with just a handful of items to check that the majority of people can agree are the most important items that would give someone a preformance advantage without waisting a bunch of time pulling a motor completely apart and checking every single part.

 

[Don Ferrette]

Build a Thunderboat or a stock class mono and watch how many times you curse yourself out for going three feet off a bouy and have someone pass you by like it’s a Sunday walk.

Yup. and THIS right here is what leads people to cheat and it happens more than many want or are willing to admit.

Chris I think the world of what you are trying to do but gonna spell it out - THERE IS NO SIMPLE WAY TO PROPERLY TECH A STOCK GAS ENGINE. Sorry my friend but it is what it is. There are too many angles to play and ways to cheat for simple things a go/no go gauges, restrictor plates, etc. If guys are willing to go to the extent of kiln heating a jug to compress it (therefore upping power) tear down and measuring are what's required. The very first item on you list back on post #82 as well as #4 & #5 require taking the engine apart and measuring so you are already there. Kevin gave specs on post #135, if the class is gonna be offered consider how can we help clubs to have someone who knows how to do the measurements. Guys that know what they are doing can measure everything in a few minutes, I've seen it done numerous times. There definitely can be some cleaning up of gray areas like allowing stainless bolts, stainless stock style (not cut down) carb butterfly shafts and other things that are non performance enhancing reliability items but as a few have already mentioned enforce the rules regardless and make the punishment enough to deter people. I think a one strike rule is too harsh, first offense you're DQ'd for the weekend and it gets listed why on the race results. Second time a year from any further competition in any stock classes, third time banned from any further competition in any stock classes. With that I'm out on this, hope everyone had a great time over the holidays. Stay safe out there.

 

[Alan Elzer]

Good information here. What about making to penalty stronger for those caught running illegal motors in these classes. Instead of disqualified for the event but to be disqualified them from all races in that class in that district for the season and all points for that class be taken away, this way if inspected at end of season they can't still win a district trophy. I've seen someone packup and leave a race when it was hinted about checking there motor, but still go on & take a district trophy & get his name plate placed on it...?

 

[Don Ferrette]

Good information here. What about making to penalty stronger for those caught running illegal motors in these classes. Instead of disqualified for the event but to be disqualified them from all races in that class in that district for the season and all points for that class be taken away, this way if inspected at end of season they can't still win a district trophy. I've seen someone packup and leave a race when it was hinted about checking there motor, but still go on & take a district trophy & get his name plate placed on it...?

I think like I mentioned first offense being DQ'd for the event and listed why on races results is fine BUT if someone refuses a teardown then yeah I can see disqualifying them from all races in that class in that district for the season and all points for that class be taken away. If you've got nothing to hide there is no reason not to and that person refusing is basically flipping the middle finger at the rules and everyone else in the class. OK I'm done for real now.... I hope. Carry on my friends.

 

[LohringMiller]

As I said some time back, I haven't seen significant cheating in the stock class. Simple tear downs and dimension checks keep the engines very close. Stroke checks are easy and can be done before the heat at a major event. This should be done in all the lower displacement classes, not just the stock classes. The one thing that really matters is the pipe and it's unregulated. I think the problems being discussed are by people who don't race at major events. I need some specific instances or dyno results to verify that all this imagined cheating has mattered. Stock classes are a great and very popular way to help keep costs down.

Lohring Miller

 

[ChrisHerzog]

As I said some time back, I haven't seen significant cheating in the stock class. Simple tear downs and dimension checks keep the engines very close. Stroke checks are easy and can be done before the heat at a major event. This should be done in all the lower displacement classes, not just the stock classes. The one thing that really matters is the pipe and it's unregulated. I think the problems being discussed are by people who don't race at major events. I need some specific instances or dyno results to verify that all this imagined cheating has mattered. Stock classes are a great and very popular way to help keep costs down.

Lohring Miller

I tend to agree with most of the above. Do I think some people intentionally do things to try and get away with stuff, yea! Do I think that it goes on a a lot, not really! I guess that’s why I think that a simple tear down procedure is all that is necessary. Cover the main items that give you the biggest bang for the buck and ignore the rest. Do I think people will still try and stretch the rules? Of course, we are all racing to win.
The only thing about the above that I guess I’m a little hesitant about is checking every boat before every heat. It you think a certain boat stands out protest it. Don’t hold up the racing or put more work on the host club having them check every motor before every heat. Check the winner of the class at the end of the day or an individual protested boat/motor and move on. There is no cash prize at any of these races so let’s not get crazy other wise we might start demanding covid test and vacation cards along with a 10 panel piss test, hair samples and blood from all of our winners!!
DQ’s and year long bands from certain classes are fine but I’m not for trying to humiliate anyone. I like to play around but at the end of the day I still need to be able to live with myself and sleep good at night. So any form of public humiliation, I don’t want anything to do with.

 

[Mike Hughes]

If there was a banning rule for 3 strike DQs, I know of one well know racer that would not be racing any more and that would be a shame. All because of loner motors. Right JD? Proven cheater..........LOL I think even Lohring falls under that category as well. I have been doing motor tear downs for years with the nitro class of tunnel racing in NAMBA. We all gather in the tech person pits and do the tear down. Place all our parts in a bag and hand it over to the tech guy. He goes thru it. Not a big deal. Same can happen with the gas motors. I only see teching being done at the national level events.
Mike

 

[Mark Anderson]

I would love to put a dial bore gauge in one of these heated and squished cylinders. I'm not buying it.

 

[Steve Seebold]

There was a stock class about 15 years ago in district 19 in which one had to run a mono with stock Zenoah 260PUM and a canister muffle

Only problem was you had to run a muffler from Zenoah and they were really poorly made and after 2 or 3 heats, the muffler would crack and become useless. There were some after market mufflers available but the rule said you had to run a Zenoah muffler.

Why not redirect that class and say “NO TUNED PIPES”.

Those boats would run in the high 40’s low 50’s range, but they were still fun to watch and race.

 

[ChrisHerzog]

There was a stock class about 15 years ago in district 19 in which one had to run a mono with stock Zenoah 260PUM and a canister muffle

Only problem was you had to run a muffler from Zenoah and they were really poorly made and after 2 or 3 heats, the muffler would crack and become useless. There were some after market mufflers available but the rule said you had to run a Zenoah muffler.

Why not redirect that class and say “NO TUNED PIPES”.

Those boats would run in the high 40’s low 50’s range, but they were still fun to watch and race.

To start off with Steve, that horse has been beat to death already. When we started the Stock mon class you had to run a canister muffler. The clubs in this area started putting on their flyer that they were allowing tuned pipes in stock mono and soon everyone was doing it up until it got changed in the rule book.

The real problem with canisters is that we require guys to run a stock motor in three different classes and not just Stock Mono. No one is going to want to change Stock mono much less change 3different classes, it just ain’t going to happen.

 

[LohringMiller]

I'm definitely a proven cheater. I hope I'm still friends with the person who turned me in for running fuel advertised as 101 octane in a G2 class engine where the fuel must be under 100 octane. We ran loaner fuel and the speeds didn't change. That's going to be the case with a lot of "cheating".

Lohring Miller

 

[Steve Seebold]

Simple solution, if your u want to run a pipe, it has to be contained inside the hull and can NOT extend past the transom.

That’s the rule in other stock classes, why not stock mono as well?

Maybe it’s time to go back to the drawing board and design a pipe that can be contained inside the hull.

 

[Randy Rapedius]

Yep! Proven IMPBA cheater here too. Won Crackerbox at the 2015 Gas Nats and passed inspection. Won in 2016 and passed inspection with the SAME motor. 48 hours later I get a call saying my motor was now being deemed illegal by the powers to be. Suspected piston tampering. Right or wrong, it was deemed illegal. I put in a new piston and gained 2 mph on top end. Thank you inspectors. Lol. I returned to the Gas Nats in 2017 and won once again and then placed 2nd in 2019.

My point is that if for whatever reason you get “labelled” as a cheater, it’s not something that goes away. In my case, the unknown to me and questionable illegal infraction did nothing to improve performance. In my case it actually hindered performance, yet many still believe if a motor doesn’t pass spec then it must be cheating. Shaming people doesn’t help our hobby.

 

[DPeterson]

I agree the word cheater has to be put to rest. This is really an underclassman type phrase or statement.

In all or most motor sports, the vehicle has to pass technical standards. If not, there are fines, points loss and the - disqualification of participating. This is what up-holds the "INTEGRITY" of the event. The guys caught (including big time names) in their respective sports with un-qualified equipment are not classified as cheaters.

I would think though, that if there was a pattern developing with one particular racer that was always getting dinged at an inspection time and time again, I suppose you could go towards the word cheater.

I think what most racers want is for the "INTEGRITY" of the stock classes to be help up to its highest achievable level. This will require standardized tech procedures that are consistently applied from club to club and from venue to venue. This will also require consistently applied deterrent type penalties for equipment failures.

I'll let you engine gurus figure out the hard part!

Doug

 

[Steve Seebold]

That’s exactly why I quit racing and now I just play.

I can set up a stock mono ready run for between $900 and $1100 while a ready to race G1 mono can cost upwards of $2500.00

 

[DON MAHER]

I think this subject just has gotten a little off track from the original post! The question is how do we check a motor to see if it is “Stock”and has not been modified to gain an advantage,but keep it simple to save the host club time and effort? Someone said that you can gain an advantage by refitting the main bearings and removing the springs from the seals and this may be true on a brand new motor, but I would bet dollars to donuts you would not be able to see any difference between this and a motor that has been run long enough to “break in the seals”! So my thoughts are keep it simple. 1 check stroke 2 remove cylinder and flywheel, check for any modifications Done!
Just my thoughts, thanks

 

[ChrisHerzog]

Just to put things in perspective. In just a couple of hours the entries for the 2022 Gas Nats are as follows Thunderboat, Cracker Box and Super Sport Mono, all witch run under the Stock class rules…. 27 entries, 14 entries and 22 entries. The Thunderboat class is the largest class over all and SS Mono is tied for the 3 largest class as of right now. For those of you that suggest we ditch the classes or allow mod motors in these classes, I don’t see that happening anytime soon. It would be better to fine tune the rules and make it easier on everyone involved.