Roostertail

[Don Ferrette]

Yes Joe. Ponds can come back.
I recently spoke to a Park Supervisor who kicked us off his pond around 8 years ago because of noise complaints. I explained that we now run mufflers and the boats are much quieter. He has asked that we bring a few boats out in the Spring for a show and has even hinted at us having a sanctioned race.

FYI ................... Randy

THAT says it all!!!!!

 

[Hap Mulvany]

The problem is not with the real racers it is with the people who just don't want anyone directing there actions most are Sport Boaters or non boaters that have the most to say.

 

[Guest]

Think if I'm in a heat with you two I'll just cruise around and watch 

You're too funny Terry! :lol: No grudge here, I'll let the boats do the talkin'! B)

BTW- I heard you've has some pretty awesome results recently with the internal stingers you started messin' with a couple months back. You should share it.......

Yes, it seems to work very well, credit goes to Gord Jennings for discovering it years ago. I look at another 2 stroke forum a bit and found guys running ATV's, scooters and bikes use it also.

Really all you have to do is run the stinger into the pipe to about the mid point where the pressure waves are at a minimum, I turn some alum. tubing with a lip to prevent it going into the pipe and hold it in with locktite. I've also seen guys use brass tubing with a short piece of the next size soldered on the end to form a lip. The ID needs to be the same as you would normally run.

You can put a small drain hole (1/16") in the tube near the end to dump the pipe if it gets flooded but you must keep it small as any outlet there increases the sound. It will also be a lot louder if you don't run it all the way to the start of the converging cone.

I have gone from about 107 dB to 92ish with my 60 hydro and even less with my 20 and 40 motors without any loss of performance or extra heat...

 

[Terry Keeley]

OOOOOpppppssss, that's me :blink:

 

[Don Ferrette]

"I have gone from about 107 dB to 92ish with my 60 hydro and even less with my 20 and 40 motors without any loss of performance or extra heat..."

HOLY SMOKES, a **** near 15 dB drop!! Now how's THAT for innovation!! And at least 3dB BELOW the proposed (95dB) limit. Way cool Terry!!

Kinda shoots a hole in the cost arguement too being acomplished with about a buck's worth of brass tubing!

 

[Don Ferrette]

Ok i will be the first one to reverse course here and ask questions instead of just typing my mind. I have several questions....but for starters....just what does a DB meter "hear" and how do you enforce a limit at a race using this tool?

Ok here goes-

Sound is pressure & a dB is the increment of measure of sound pressure like a pound is in measuring weight. Your eardrum translates these sound pressures into electrical impulses to the brain. The louder the sound, the higher the pressure, hence the higher the dB level will be. Now keep in mind the increase is not linear. For example OSHA limit for safe noise exposure at 90dB is 8 hours. Raise that a mere 5dB & the max. exposure is only 4 hours. When you get over 105dB, which is typical for an unmuffled nitro engine larger than a .45 or an average unmuffled gas boat, the maximum recommended exposure is under one hour (OSHA Hearing Conservation Standard 29 CFR 1910.95). These are the standards set to protect your ears from permanent damage, but damage to your hearing is another point altogether. Anyway, the dB meter measures these pressures which brings another point- there are those who seem to contend that 6 boats will create higher readings than say 3 or 4. Well that's not the case as the only thing the dB meter knows is the highest output. If you have 6 boats running at 92dB then the reading will be 92. If you have one in the group running 95 then that will be your highest reading. It's not hard at all to pick out a boat that's louder than others, we've been doing it easily. Keep in mind that when you have everyone running at at or below a certain level, those who don't will stick out like a sore thumb. The measuring format which is what I proposed both for our district & for our director to submit to the board is just like what dist. #1 has already adopted & what NAMBA & APBA has had in place for years, it reads as follows-

A commercially available noise measurement device must be used with resolution of at least .3 db. Measurements must be made within front of course between buoys #1 & #6. Measurements are to be made near the start line area of the front stretch, approx. 50' from lane #1 minimum 4' above & no higher than 10' above the water and approximately 90 degrees to the running boats path. Stable mounting such as a tripod is strongly recommended. The noise measurement device should be set to "A" weighted measuring scale.

As for enforcement-

A competitor must be warned immediately after the first heat if their boat exceeds the dB limit. If after the second heat the boat still exceeds the noise level, they will receive a warning of impending disqualification. If during the third heat the boat still exceeds the noise limit the boat will be disqualified from competition and will lose all points accumulated. This will reduce the chances of a competitor deliberately slowing down in front of the measurement device. If a competitor is found doing so he will be warned of possible disqualification by the CD.

So there you have it. I'd also like to add one more thing, this is a copy of something I posted on another site-

"The one thing we seem to be forgetting is this dB thing is not going to be like the Gestapo hanging over your head or something. Once the limit is in place and people are quieting the boats down, it will be only a matter of someone saying something like "that boat sounds loud, go take a look at the meter next pass". Not someone on the meter every single second going "that boat's too loud!" It is very easy, just by ear, to tell if one boat is markedly louder then the rest. I've been able to do it without looking at the meter repeatedly. If everyone has made a sincere effort to stay under then the ones who choose not to make that same effort will stand out, it's that simple. And for what it's worth, if someone happens to meter out at 92.5 on a pass, I'm not going to single him out & go looking for blood. Alot of you are getting waaay too freaked out by this..............."

Ok that's enough that this two finger typer can stand. At least for the next 1/2 hour..... :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[Guest_Joe W]

Well I have underestimated you. I did not know you were an Expert. As for the Leak... it was Mike.... Not Preston.... And as for the Challange at the IMPBA Nats in 04.... We will see Who is Chasing Who. If your boats work as well as your mouth. Well................ we will wait to see if that is possible. Sing On Brother !! BETTER SPENT SOME TIME WORKING ON THE BOATS. I got a few New Hot Rod Piccos waiting for that Race. See you @ the IMPBA NATS.....

 

[RaceCraftBearings]

Don I am not against setting a new rule BUT I do want it to go out to the membership for a vote it should be up to the majority of the members will ing to cast a ballot not just voice thier opinions on the websites. 
Plus the rule needs to be able to be enforced across all of the IMPBA clubs and also enforced easily by the clubs without too much burden laid onto the clubs or their members. 

If you look back in the histroy of the board I had a District Four member request I introduce a proposal for reducing noise as an optional rule similar to the one the Gas rule have now.  But the board in 1995 at Toledo didn't even let it go forward to the membership since it was simialr to the rule John Equi had worked up prior to 1995.   The Florida members almost got into a physical fight at the board meeting held in Florida.  The Florida members sealed their own fate when they voted down the first attempt at quiteing down model boats.

John is working on a new rule at the request of the IMPBA board and it will be going out for a membership vote in time to be implmented for the 2005 racing season as long as the majority of the members vote for it.

Hi Bill, I am wondering what kind of fate we Florida boaters suffered. We are now NAMBA and were already talking about going NAMBA before we held the Internats in Sarasota. We are already QUITE in Florida while IMPBA just rots away. One of the main reasons we changed to NAMBA is in the IMPBA it takes 5 years to get someone to think about a rule change. Kinda get tired of waiting!

Dont take this personal but I dont like to see someone slander us Florida boaters over an issue that isnt an issue in Florida.

IMPBA went stagnate and we choose to leave that behind, simple as that!

I hate politics and I am best to leave posts like these alone but I dont like bad info running rampant.

THIS IS A HOBBY IT IS SUPPOSED TO BE FUN! POLITICS RUIN IT FOR EVERYONE!

Ron

 

[Joe_Knesek]

Well I have underestimated you. I did not know you were an Expert. As for the Leak... it was Mike.... Not Preston.... And as for the Challange at the IMPBA Nats in 04.... We will see Who is Chasing Who. If your boats work as well as your mouth. Well................ we will wait to see if that is possible. Sing On Brother !! BETTER SPENT SOME TIME WORKING ON THE BOATS. I got a few New Hot Rod Piccos waiting for that Race. See you @ the IMPBA NATS.....

Mike has already gone on record to say he didn't meter the boat so I don't see how you you can be right Joe. Unless you were at the event and witnessed it on your own, you should just keep your mouth shut until you have facts not just a bunch of hot air.

 

[bsmtboy2]

Just to continue the technical side of the rule, the human ear can only detect changes in sound of 3db's or greater.So as we make these rules in our districts and clubs take this into consideration. What we all need to remember is this rule doesn't mean squat to the "concerned taxpayer" who hears unusually loud noises in his favorite park while "fluffy" takes his daily dump in the park.

 

[Mike Saleeby]

Joe

I have not even talked to you, much less said anything about anybodys boat that was the elizabeth city, nc,saw trials to you! And if I had talked to you about dons boat anything I said would have been false because I didn't DB his boat at all. There were boats there that set records that did read over a 100 Dbs but Dons wasn't one that I measured. I did join a chat room one nite on JIMS BOAT DOCK but I don't recall speaking with you, And my subscription to Psysic Hot Line has expired so I know we didn't communicate through telepathy so I am at a loss here. :wacko:

But to set the record straight: I DID NOT measure at any time during the week end of the SAW trials @ Elizabeth City, NC, the DB level of ANY of Mr. Don Ferrettes' boats. Any statement made by, inferred by. or coereced from me that states different is simply not true.

Thats my story and i am sticking to it.

take care

mike

 

[mark poole]

Thanks for the explaination Don. That answered my two biggest questions that i was going to have....the one about what the meter reads with six or seven boats at one time and how you go about picking them out fairly. This may shock you coming from me but giving a a racer 3 heats to get in line seems too passive?? No, i do not that i think anybody should be tossed after just one heat but you have to draw a line with keeping the pond quiet and be fair to those who are well below the limit. That is one of the things that will have to be well thought out for a consistant nation rule i am sure.

 

[Jay Stone]

I wanna go to the IMPBA Internats now. The Retrieve boat better have a net in it, either gonna be some good racing or plenty of peices to pick up!

I'll be in LA supporting the NAMBA Nats, but would sure like to come out to Jackson at the end of the month!

 

[DaveMarles]

Mark, For 25 years I've raced and been a race organiser operating under noise restrictions in UK and other countries in Europe and I can tell you that exact measurent of noise is impossible for a few reasons, these are just a few

1. A boat that is under 90 at one venue can be over at another, depending upon shape of the shoreline ( sloping etc), if there are trees around, ambient noise levels from highways etc.

2. There is no way to accurately measure one boat during a race because the other boats immediately raise the ambient noise level depending upon how many boats and how loud they are.

3. Trying to measure noise at one buoy and then someone comes close to the shore showing higher noise levels.

4. The guy that throttles down as he passes the noise meter.

5. The guy that insists that his boat has been measured by the most accurate noise meter in the world and its OK. etc etc.

The list goes on but still its possible to make it work and eventually it won't be too difficult. At first there will be LOTS of arguments but at the end of the day, common sense will prevail and also as with all other rules the CD's decision is final.

One thing that I think is easy is the fact the the levels proposed are being put at around 92 to 95db. This is very easy to attain and any competent boater could achieve this with little cost in money and no cost in performance. In my experience the silencing of the exhaust is a small but important part of the equation, on the bigger engines the motor must also have a close fitting cover especially on mono's and even more so on gas boats which generate the most noise. I personally see no point in just trying to scrape under the noise limit, better to be well under and then have a happy days racing with no hassle.

Dave.

 

[Don Ferrette]

Dave-

I'd like to comment on some of the good points you've brought up-

1. A boat that is under 90 at one venue can be over at another, depending upon shape of the shoreline ( sloping etc), if there are trees around, ambient noise levels from highways etc. -

This could be true in scenarios over there where you are talking about running in the 80's as far as dB range. Yes at a level that low there are ambient (background) noises that can be as loud as what you are metering. I've had a location meter out over 74dB of ambient noise, no boats running. With dB levels of 92 to 95 though, that's significantly more than surrounding ambients. I've tested this out at various courses & locations & when your talking in the 90's it's way different.

2. There is no way to accurately measure one boat during a race because the other boats immediately raise the ambient noise level depending upon how many boats and how loud they are. -

Very true as long as all boats are running close to the same level of noise output. Again, when you are talking of levels up in the low 90's it's alot easier though as they are alot louder. Remember the dB scale is not linear & the goal is to get the noise level down as a whole.

3. Trying to measure noise at one buoy and then someone comes close to the shore showing higher noise levels. -

Same answer as 1 & 2. We tried something like that, even had a couple boats pass closer to us than the boat we were metering. Guess what, we still metered the boat in lane one at 91dB because the two boats between us & the boat in lane one were running in the high 80dB range.

4. The guy that throttles down as he passes the noise meter. -

Yup, that's why unfortunately any rule has to have provisions for that.

5. The guy that insists that his boat has been measured by the most accurate noise meter in the world and its OK. etc etc.

You'll have those guys as well, wether it's noise or whatever.

I can tell you this, once you've seen a boat that meets the Euro standards, this 92 to 95 limit seems trivial. Last spring two guys from over there, Kjell Noddeland & Tore Hilde attended a race over here. I know Dave knows who they are but for the rest of you who might not, these guys are multiple times World Champions. They hung out with us all weekend, two really nice guys very willing to share their knowledge & experience. Well during the day on Saturday while I was talking with Tore at thier tent, Kjell fired up his 90SG about 10 feet away, you didn't even have to raise your voice to continue the conversation. These guys were running thier stuff as run in Europe & they were fast, they went 1st & 2nd in virtually every class they ran. THAT was impressive, to be that fast & that quiet at the same time! B) B)

 

[Guest_JOE W]

WELL, YOU BETTER READ THE POST & THINK ABOUT IT. I KNOW WHERE THE INFO CAME FROM & SEEMS NOW THEY ARE NOT SURE WHAT THEY SAW.... NO I WAS NOT AT THE EVENT. BUT I CAN TELL YOU YOU WILL HAVE YOUR HANDS FULL @ THE NATS. MAKE SURE YOU BRING ALL YOUR FAST BOATS. THEY WILL BE REQUIRED. LET THE BOATS DO THE TALKING........

 

[DaveMarles]

Hey Don, I'm just pointing out the pitfalls and the fact that its not going to be an exact science. ( and trying to up my posting count to stop being a newbie).

Scientifically: If you have 2 boats at the same noise level together in the 90 db range then the noise level will read 3 db higher than just one boat.

In my club when we first started with this we just said:

" We don't care about the BS and excuses. If you don't pass under the db level on the meter then you better fix your boat" perhaps not very fair but then no-one needs to get angry.

Dave

 

[Preston_Hall]

1.

Come on Joe, either name somebody or zip it. And why does it even matter if the boats were 100000000 db? They had muffling devices.................therefore legal.

2.

I talked to Mike Saleeby and he mentioned that some of the reasons that it took so long to implement a bd rule was that you can't do it now because the season will already have started by the March Roostertail. I guess some other bonehead would say the same for the mid-season June Roostertail. And well as far as December goes, I heard that one in New York last year, "it's been cold and we haven't had time to test". So I guess with these three excuses the IMPBA will never pass a db rule.

3.

db's will be higher at some locations. But you should still have to abide by the same limit.

4.

Right! Stop trying to squeeze by and be a responsible boater.

 

[Don Ferrette]

"Scientifically: If you have 2 boats at the same noise level together in the 90 db range then the noise level will read 3 db higher than just one boat."

Huh? :blink:

In repeated testing we've metered single boats at a certain dB level, then tried it when they went by together & got similar readings, typically within a dB or less, not 3. Well one thing that never ceases to amaze me is these boats seem to unprove some theories. B)

 

[DaveMarles]

Just one place to find out ..

http://www.windpower.org/en/tour/env/db/dbdef.htm