Riggers from Japan

[Hammerhead]

The first rigger I ever saw in action was the "Coyote".

That must have been back in '78. Wow! There could have been nothing more exciting. The power, handling and all out authority. That boat fascinated me beyond belief. Ever since then, I have been an outrigger fanatic.

UNFORTUNATELY, The ones that are coming out these days haven't evolved hardly at all since the beginning.

My military service brought me to Japan in '87, where I still live now. I am very involved with the JMPBA in Japan. I have also raced at the national level in every class of outrigger here in Japan. When I first got involved over here, There wasn't much difference in what the Japanese were running, and what was being run in America. Maybe you have heard the saying, "Japanese don't have the ability to discover a new idea, but they are geniuses when it comes to making someone else's idea better."

Now if you look at the outriggers being run in Japan, there is little similarity compared with the American counterparts. Send your SG Eagles, Jaguars, Mongooses, and what ever you may have. They just can't make the grade anymore.

Some people over here are convinced by the numbers in advertisements, and go out and get an American boat.

For example, Andy Brown's 119 mile per hour SG Eagle. Yeah Right! I bet you anything that the boat he did 119mph with isn't the same boat you get when you order one. Anyway, There was an attempt to market it over here, but it didn't do well at all. It ended up being one of the biggest marketing failures in RCboat history over here. It just didn't produce the numbers.

I think that the people who really want to take the lead, need to study the design of riggers made in Japan. The designs are way more advanced, cooler looking, handle better, and create an exciting class in RC boat racing.

If anyone is interested, I will introduce you to a site that is in English, that has vids, and many photos of JMPBA riggers in action. Hammerhead

 

[MikeP]

Rerehistoric outriggers

Hammerhead,

Whats the URL?

Mike

If anyone is interested, I will introduce you to a site that is in English, that has vids, and many photos of JMPBA riggers in action. Hammerhead

 

[TomMoorehouse]

Rerehistoric outriggers

hi hammerhead... welcome to the forum... here is my understanding on this... I know of only 2 web sites that are about rc boating in japan... 1 is in english... it is the snoopy powerboat team:

http://www.hi-ho.ne.jp/snoopy/Snoopy_Engli...ish_Edition.htm

a desecent web page... but i was unable to gain much information about how the riggers differed from american designs... one thing a saw was that the sponsons were set much further appart and they look much larger overall. with further looking around it appears the boats are run in a completely different format than we run in the usa. in the usa the boats run on either 1/4 or 1/3 mile ovals... it appears that in japan the boats are used to cover long distances on open water followed by a chase boat... much rougher water would explain the larger size. If what i have seen and explained is correct this would explain why american boats wont compete... they are not designed to do that type of running.

I would really like to learn more about it... even host a jmpba web site... after all this is supposed to be "international" waters.

I have done a ton of outrigger designing myself... The more I design the more I find the fast guys have a reason they do things in a traditional way... because it works best! Alot of the "cool" designs are nothing but smoke and mirrors i find...

one of the usa's best, Gary Preusse, told me that the difference between his 40 boats speed with super duper aerodynamic sponsons and standard heat racing sponsons is 95-97mph! i dont believe you can gain much in a heat racing boat by making cool, slick aerodynamics... it will only be smoke and mirrors.

what are the predominant designs in japan... id really like to see more good quality pictures... perhaps you can take pictures of your boats and ill post them here for all to see

ps... the SAW boats Andy Brown uses are not the production boats... but the oval boats like the current .21 1/3 mile oval record holder is.

 

[Hammerhead]

Rerehistoric outriggers

The JMPBA in Japan uses the exact same format as

the USA. All the rules are the same. The long distance race that you are thinking about is a part of the JMPBA, but it is a whole different sport.

One URL I will give is http://members.jcom.ne.jp/rc5t-anzi

Unfortunately it is still in the works getting an English

link, but we are working on it. Included are all the specs.

for the National champion 15cc class and 7.5cc class hydros. There are more than 200 pics and a few vids.

If you click around on the purple, red and yellow tabs,

you will be able to navigate it at random.

Look forward to seeing it in English soon. Maybe June!?

 

[Hammerhead]

Rerehistoric outriggers

disreguard the URL above. I made a mistake. Sorry Guys.

Try this instead: http://members.jcom.home.ne.jp/rc5t-anzi/

Hammerhead

 

[TomMoorehouse]

Rerehistoric outriggers

well... they are clearly different. it seems the engine and turn fin placement theories are completely different... perhaps you can shed some light on this.

lets do some comparisons...

with .21 size riggers... as that is my most famillar class...

what is an average weight, overall length, and perhaps SAW speed in oval trim...

in my area of the usa:

an average .21 weighs 3.75 - 5 lbs

Length from 30.5" - 32" long

most .21's will heat race in the mid 60 mph range with the fastest guys in the lower to mid 70's

what is is that you have seen the japanese riggers do better than usa's... is it speed, handling, reliability???

i looked around pretty good at that sight but could not find any videos... rats! I like watching a good boat video!

thanks for sharing your opinions Hammerhead!

Tom

 

[Hammerhead]

Rerehistoric outriggers

Okay Tom, I will give you the run down. On the .21

For engines, The most popular over her is the O.S VX.

It is only available for cars, but there is a shop over here that sets them up for boats. Really reliable.

It does seem to kick it up, if you increase the exhaust timing a bit. Check it out.

The average .21 is about 750mm to 800mm long.

They weigh anywhere from 1.5-1.8 kgs.

We run with a wider spread on our sponsons. About 18cm on the turn fin side. and about 20cm on the left side. In relation to the tub. the sponsons are anywhere from 4.5 to 5.0 degrees. the stuffing box is anywhere from 2.5 to 3 degrees. Most people over here run 3 points. I myself have been more successful with 4 points. I keep them under the hull though. I feel that the four point comes out of the corners better. That is where I like to do my passing, so it is nice to have a little more control. Now for the sponsons. One really good idea that I highly recommend you try, is keeping the surface of the sponson that touches the water flat.

Don't put any angles in them. I know that some people put a lot of angle in the left sponson, and put about half in the right sponson to componsate for the torque. If you keep the sponsons flat, and just make the width of the right sponson 1/3 wider than the right, you get the same effect without the drag. Try it! I guarantee you will like it!

The difference that I think you saw in the turn fin, was that itis placed farther back. Most of us mount our engines at about 40-45 percent back from the nose. I believe this is farther than the norm in the USA. That is why we use the aluminum arm to mount the turn fin. The center of balance is where we place the leading edge.

As far as speed, I can't really give you any numbers, but the winner in a heat in the .21 class race usually finishes the 5 lap race in about 45 seconds.

I watched some vids of a race in the states. I saw that about only 1/3 of the boats finished the heats in most cases. I think the biggest advantage of the Japanese style of outrigger is the handling.

by the way, I designed my boat. It is 15cc class. I use a O.S 91 ducted fan engine. It is tuned up. I did clock it on a radar gun once. I was going 98 miles an hour. I could also crank a hard right at full speed with no hesitations.

I have never been in a heat where I didn't finish with it.

Thank you so much Tom, for your interest in this topic. I am the only American member of the JMPBA. It is really difficult for me to suck it up when the guys are all talking crap about American boats. It is not that I want to talk big or anything. It is more of a matter of pride. I wish to take my boats to the states and race some day.

If you want to see the vids, click the red icons.

Hammerhead.

[email protected]

This is my address. If you write to me. I will send you some pics of my new project. All Carbon Fiber C class outrigger.

 

[TomMoorehouse]

Rerehistoric outriggers

well... it looks like the length and weight are very compareable. i'm trying to understand the oval size... you say they are the same... but you also said 5 laps... in the usa we run either 8 laps around a 1/4 mile oval or 6 laps around a 1/3 mile oval... from what i could read... it appears that in japan they use a 500 meter oval... and you said 5 laps... makes a total of just over 1.5 miles where we run 2 miles total.

according to my math... if takes 45 seconds to run 1.55 miles it would take 58 seconds to run 2 miles. according to a real good video posted at: http://www.intlwaters.com/videos/nitroout/...rentirerace.avi

of .21 hydros it takes us about 1 1/2 minutes to run 2 miles... this would put japan way ahead of the usa... that is if your estimate of 45 seconds is correct. But I also estimate that the speed would have to be over 100mph ... I highly doubt that is correct!

I only found 1 hydro video on the website... and it looked slow to me... but the pond also looked too small so it might not have been going full speed.

my american pride says they have not seen a good properly tuned american rigger run if they talk that way.

check that video and see if you think it looks fast...

what is the SAW japan records?

 

[Hammerhead]

Rerehistoric outriggers

I will check with the area directer on the exact stats of the course and get back with you Tom. I think you are right. I don't think that we are running on as big a course at you guys are. I will get back to you with the info before tomorrow. Marty

 

[Hammerhead]

Rerehistoric outriggers

We use the 1/3 mile configuration in JMPBA with 5 laps.

I saw the vid. That course looked a bit bigger than what we use. The speed is pretty hard to compare. I will take a video of some heats on the 12th of May for you. I will try to get one of each class.

By the way, the Enlish site that I was going to introduce to you is Snoopy, They have some vids too.

Hammerhead

 

[TimD]

Rerehistoric outriggers

Hi Hammerhead,

I'm from Australia myself so this is an "international" thread!

98MPH with a OS91DF - Man that is fast! How do you keep the piston / liner alive in those things - I gave up on mine.

Just out of curiousity, what prop's are you using in Japan?

Tim.

 

[TomMoorehouse]

Rerehistoric outriggers

yea... that is a good question... what props are you useing?

 

[Hammerhead]

Rerehistoric outriggers

Austrailia? Cool! Must be getting cold down there.

As for the piston and sleeve. I use the ACC sleeve and piston set up. It is really a pain to break is in, but they hold up with lots of abuse. I also drill a hole in the piston. This seems to keep it cooler. I use a prather 270 screw that I have dinked around with. Other people use ABC hobbies screws. I don't think you can get them outside of Japan. I'm not sure. I personally prefer prather.

Another thing that I like to do, is take a VR-M 81 and put a .91 crankshaft in it. By doing this, you get a .91 with water cooling around the exhaust manifold. Easy as pie!!!

I hope this answers your question too Tom.

Did you guys have a good day at the pond Sunday? It was raining like crazy here=(

Send me a request to my to ICQmail listed in a previous post in this forum and I will send you some pics of my Hammerhead 90. 1998 and 2002 versions.

Tom! If it's possible, could you send me a pic of your new project .21 that you are planning to sell for 100 dollars a kit? Thanks! Hammerhead

 

[TimD]

Rerehistoric outriggers

Yeah, Just starting to get cooler here - today it is about 23 deg C. Not quite as cool as the US at the moment!!

The comments you made about the OS 81VRM crank are interesting. From the info I have the crank is the same stroke for the 91DF but the bore is different. I have put a 91DF piston/ sleeve in mine B4 as it fits straight in the case. I just had to change the head button. The problem I had was the plating peeling off the liner. Nice motor other than that shortcoming (nice drum valve and carb setup!).

What area of the japanese riggers would contribute most to the speeds you are achieving? That prop / motor combination wouldn't be even close to 98MPH in a lot of riggers.

Thanks again for your input hammerhead

Tim.

 

[Hammerhead]

Rerehistoric outriggers

Thanks for the comment Tim, To tell you the truth Tim, 98 isn't that fast anymore. Last year in the Nationals here, a guy from Kyushu was radared at 111 on the straight during a heat race with 5 other boats on the water. He was using a Mac 84 I believe. So one with my very own eyes for the first time last Sunday. It was brand spankin' new. The break in went with out a hitch.

Nice engine! Too pricey for me though. It goes for about 600 dollars over here.

As far as why I think I was able to achieve 98 during a heat is beacause I was able to make a larger boat than the guys in the states use at a lot lighter weight. This obviously creates less work for the Engine, and the size of the boat keeps it on the water. I think that if you check out some other Japanese Hydros, you will see that they are much larger, but maintain a minimal weight. Many guys make their boats out of balsa and laminate them with fiberglass and epoxy, or carbon. I myself make my boats out of 100% carbon. It saves me the time and money of having to build another boat after I wipe out.

Most really serious racers over here will have a boat prepared for every heat, just in case.

I don't, cause I'm just a poor little American in a filthy rich country.

If I think of anything else, I will let you know. Again, Thanks a bunch for your inputs.

I will send you a pic. You will see what I mean by size.

 

[Hammerhead]

Rerehistoric outriggers

Tim! When you see the pics, Tell me your opinion. The Pic of it running was taken at the '98 Nationals. I won a few heats, but in the total standings, I came out in 4th.

 

[TimD]

Rerehistoric outriggers

Got the pic's - that thing is huge ;D

How heavy is your typical 90 sized rigger?

Our 90 rigger class (X hydro) allows twins and this has become very popular. Most of the single engined guys are running 67's in C hydro - I am building one of these at the moment. I too was running a carbon / fibreglass rigger for a while but I smashed it beyond repair. I'm surprised that with the materials and techniques available with carbon and composites that there aren't more boats made this way. It is rediculously light.

Can someone tell me how to post a pic on here for all to see? ONLY IF you don't object Hammerhead!!!

Tim.

 

[TomMoorehouse]

Rerehistoric outriggers

I got one pic from Gene... i can post it if its ok with hammerhead... looks pretty cool to me!

also if you have a bunch to post just send them to me... i can post them easily...

 

[TomMoorehouse]

Rerehistoric outriggers

I missed Hammer's $100 boat question.... well the .12 should easily be $100 the .21... well ive went over this in my head 100 times... I could sell one for that price if it included a glass spar, and no turn fin... but I think I have decided I will sell it only with a carbonfiber spar and a turn fin... putting the total around $120

what do you guys think? should i have a less expensive version with a glass spar and no fin... or just sell it with the carbon fiber spar and a fin?

 

[Hammerhead]

Rerehistoric outriggers

Go ahead and post it Tom. I don't mind at all.

When I finish my 2002 version, you can post it too.

It will be finished this coming weekend.

To answer your questions, one at a time. Tom: I bought, a Jaguar from Tidewater about 4 or 5 years ago.

It was a .45 size, but I ran it with a .21. I paid 325 dollars for it after the shipping to Japan. If you sell a .21

for a 120 bucks. with carbon components, I don't think many people will be complaining about the price.

I will give you the Hydro and mono classes, that we have over here.

A-class hydro, and mono it over .15 and under .21

B-class is over .21 and under .46

C-class is over .46 and under .91

G-class is gasoline: anything is okay. No limit.( if you want to put 6 engines in your boat, it is okay.) They don't seperate the monos and hydros in this class yet. I think it is because there are very few people who enter it.

!/2 A-class is mono only, anything under .15

That is it! We don't have all the classes that you guys have in other countries.

One reason is that most Japanese work on Saturday, and if you have a lot of classes, then you couldn't finish the tournament on just a Sunday, As it is with the JMPBA tournaments, We only have A B and C classes. A total of 6 classes in a tournament. And it still takes from early morning to twilight to finish a tournament.

If you are interested in making an almost indestructible composite hydro, I can tell you how to do it and maintain 90 degree tub walls. Most people don't go with the solid carbon body as I do, because it is impossible to pull the tub out of a mold if you make the side walls of the tub 90degrees. If you don't make them 90 degrees, then you have to modify your mounts, and other stuff to fit in straight. Real pain in the rear!

Well, I thought and I thunk, till I stunk, and I figured out a way to do it. It is sooooooo easy!!!

first of all, you find a peice of heavy wood the length that you want your hydro and 3/16 of an inch wider than you want the inside of your tub. Then you glue a peice of 1/8 inch finishing plywood, that is just a little bit longer to the top surface of the board leaving about 15% of one end not glued. nail down the plywood with finishing nail across the surface on the line where the glue boarder is, and jack up one end by putting a 1 inch block between the heavy board and the finishing plywood. This will become they up bent nose. Then make one more of these things the same length but another 3/16 of an inch wider.

Then make the side walls with 1/2 inch plywood with the bottom square, and the top rounded, exactly the same as the bent up nose.

Then seal them and paint them with poly urethane.

Bolt the side walls on to the the heavy boards. USE LOTS OF BOLTS! THen take car wax. Yes! that's right!

Car wax. The kind that gets hard when it is dry. put some on your finger, and fill in the seem between the side walls and the bottom surface. Let is dry then buff of the excess. This will keep the mold from leaking epoxy. Then do the release wax and release film stuff, and you are ready to go. When the epoxy is still not quite hard, use a box cutter, and slice off the excess along the top of the side walls. Wait till everything is hard as a rock. then unbolt the side walls, and pop your tub halves out. With four ply 3kx3k carbon fiber the wider of the two should fit perfectly over the other.

Now! Take some 1/2 inch poly foam sheets, and make all the walls that you will need inside the boat( Radio Box, and so-on) With a sheet of 4 ply carbon fiber board that you can make on a pain of glass, reinforce all the walls. I recommend putting a slab of alumimum in the transom, thick enough to get a good tap to bolt on your rudder and strut.

Next, cut out all the access areas out of the top half. (make sure they match the walls in the bottom half.)

Then add supports for the radio box lid, and engine cover.

Slide the top over the bottom, and glue them together.

Your top and bottom will be 4ply, and the side walls will become 8ply. Try to break that!

I will send you pic of my mold Tom. I think it is good enough to make a few boats before it warps.

As for the sponsons, I just paste carbon boards over poly urethane foam. I haven't figured out how to make a mold for sponsons to specifications that I desire.

When I do, I will post it.

Thanks for the imputs Tom and Tim. Hammerhead