Propeller Indexing

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6

68Bud

Guest
Hey Everyone,

Just curious if anyone has any good information on propeller indexing for nitro engines. I have heard that there are performance gains to be had by orienting the prop blades in relation to crank/piston stroke. My only issue with the idea is how to account for flex cable wrap up which would make indexing the prop more of WAG (wild-ass-guess) than anything. Comments, thoughts?

Update....please see the link in the post below.
 
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Bud,

After watching that thread unfold, almost in real time, and now reading it through again, I will say this:

I know of several guys who index their props, and they ALL run very, very......... VERY fast. Is indexing THE reason for their ultimate performance? NO. Is it part of their overall program and therefore part of their success? Absolutely.

Here is the theory: As the piston comes off TDC, just after ingintion, this is when the engine is twisting the hardest on the prop shaft. If the blade of the prop with the most pitch is just digging in at this moment, you will get the benefit of the additional pitch, and the boat will go faster. 180 degrees or so later, when the piston is headed back up, and the flywheel's inertia is being gobbled up by compression, if the blade with the least pitch is going through the water, then it is loading the engine less, and therefore not contributing to the inertia absorbtion nearly as much.

As for flex shaft wind-up: Yes, the shaft will wind up some, so the indexing angle may not be where you might think it should be in relation to the clocking of the crankshaft in a static state (not running). So some testing will be in order. Run the boat, radar it coming down the front stretch. Bring it in. Loosen the collet. Advance (or retard) the clocking of the prop. Retighten the collet. Repeat. Is the shaft wind-up coming into play by changing the clock orientation of the prop in relation to the crankshaft as running load changes? YES. But, with testing comes answers. You will find an indexing that works best for most conditions and it WILL contribute to a better running boat.

Are there other areas of "research" that will yeild more performance? Of course. But, as Mr. Davis pointed out, after you've wrung all you can out of a given set-up, prop indexing will result in that little bit more that others have not, and apparently for some, will not have explored.

Take this for what it's worth.

Thanks. Brad.

Titan Racing Components

BlackJack Hydros
 
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Terry,

Shut up.......... You're not helping. :rolleyes: :p

Your signature, BTW, says it all.

Thanks Brad.

Titan Racing Components

BlackJack Hydros
 
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Had a freind explain that simply doing the 180 flip on the drive dog may show the difference.....

Making sense to have the blade on the power stroke, still brings questions:

Is this related to, say Marty, having "A" and "B" pitches on his duplicators he sells, and the commom 101 prop (?) the outboarders had going awhile back?

what effect easily, and on my mind when in theory statically the prop is out of balance ( 2 different pitches?)

Stuck in the mirror image aspect of prop construction I could intend to make the two sides different.... besides personal testing, what numbers are out there.... ie: very little change, blade to blade, one, seriously high and one low to allow the stroke to recover?

different blade configurations either equalling fresh water to both blades,(more water moved), or in all thinking, the engine working harder to move water all the time, not the concentric circle more or less in a mirror blade prop... easier? thoughts?...

A different 3 blader, all 3, progressing up may be very wicked.....

back to regularly scheduled programming..... Mike
 
Question is? Is it Measurable Performance Gain? How to we allow for Flexshaft Wind Up???? :blink: NO ONE has answered that question yet??????? & Is Glow Plug Indexing A Performance Gain? I hear they do it in DRAG RACING?
 
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Joe, please explain to me how you would index a glow plug?? When you index a spark plug, your goal is to face the opening of the electrode towards the center of the combustion chamber, to direct spark directly into the air/fuel mixture. I dont think you can do this with an open faced glow plug, as its already directed into the air/fuel mixture in the bowl of the head ;)
 
Hey Everyone,

Just curious if anyone has any good information on propeller indexing for nitro engines. I have heard that there are performance gains to be had by orienting the prop blades in relation to crank/piston stroke. My only issue with the idea is how to account for flex cable wrap up which would make indexing the prop more of WAG (wild-ass-guess) than anything. Comments, thoughts?

Update....please see the link in the post below.
Fire your boat up on the stand.Stick your finger into the prop and tell me if you know were the power stroke is! Seriously,this is silly talk.But,if you have to know,go to the pond with a radar gun index your prop all day,and you will have your answer.
 
Joe, please explain to me how you would index a glow plug?? When you index a spark plug, your goal is to face the opening of the electrode towards the center of the combustion chamber, to direct spark directly into the air/fuel mixture. I dont think you can do this with an open faced glow plug, as its already directed into the air/fuel mixture in the bowl of the head ;)
Exactly!!!!! But you can still index it if you want? & You can tell everyone it is indexed..... & the gain would be What? Measurable? & while we are at it..... Tell me how your going to index a prop on a flex shaft that has various wind up`s on accleration & deacceleration. If it (prop) is indexed At static setting?? Now Hold the flywheel & Load the prop up. You will find it takes about 60 degrees of shaft movement to load the prop shaft up. Now is your prop still indexed to TDC??????? :blink: You can gain perfromance in Many Other places that is measurable.....
 
Joe,

Seriously? <_< Did you not read my post at all? Your shaft is going to wind-up to basically the same point every time it hits the water. With the very same testing you would use to find needle settings, the sweet spot will be found for a given shaft. Once you find it, it will always be there. Even if you change shafts, as long as you stick with the same MFR, it will be very close. I think the only gains to be found are going to be at unloaded, WOT, so varying wind-up due to changing loads will be almost negligable.

A quote from Marty Davis in the above posted linked thread:

An example of this indexing that I have stated for MANY years is a true story:

 

I had a Beardslee prop that was a cut down 2.8 Octura. (Back then I was doing some SAW stuff). It had rounded tips and was cut down a bunch. I used it on my 40 SAW boat (20 Crapshooter with 45 K&B on mini-pipe). I would run 80-85 mph in 1979. I let Fred McBroom run the prop one day and he ran his boat up on a big boat launch ramp. Bent the prop up. His brother, Hilton, a terrific mechanic and builder said he could bend it back and make it perfect. He did, only thing one blade was substantially different in pitch. I ran the prop and it worked just OK. Put it back in my box and one day I ran it again, and it was awesome. Ran 89.9 mph. Couldn't figure out what had just happened. Started thinking about it and running it again and again. It ran different sometimes at 80 and sometimes at 89. Decided one day that nothing had changed and MAYBE I should put it on the drive dog one way and test it and then reverse it 180 degrees. THAT WAS IT. From that day on I started working with indexing props. True story and one that amazed me in its simplicity and result.

This sure sounds like a measurable result to me.

Personally, I index my own props. Not really for any the performance gain (yet), but for repeatability. I believe it DOES have an impact, and since I haven't had a chance to do the testing, I remove the variable from my set-up by always indexing the prop to the same point everytime I assemble for testing/racing.

Rodney,

I was just turned onto this, so I haven't had time to explore it at all, but.......

Take a head button and thread a new glow plug into it. Mark the head buttom to indicate where the element is welded to the bottom of the plug. Now repeat with another glow plug. And another. And another. As I am told (by what I consider to be a very reliable source), the element will orient to basically the same point with every plug. Now with this in mind, consider the effect of the pipe on the plug. When everything is just right: Needle, pipe length, etc., the plug element will be pulled out of the body of the plug after a good hard run. I've seen mine pull all the way out and sideways toward the edge of the bowl. Wouldn't it make sense to orient the plug so that the element bent the way you want it to? As I was told, if you orient the element weld toward the exhaust port, you will get better results. I can't remember if it was better performance, easier needle, plug longevity or what, but in any case, at least IMHO, it is always better to eliminate any variable that can be eliminated.

Jeff,

That's right. ;) Keep others from exploring something that might make them harder for you to catch. :rolleyes:

Thanks. Brad.

Titan Racing Components

BlackJack Hydros
 
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Joe,

Seriously? <_< Did you not read my post at all? Your shaft is going to wind-up to basically the same point every time it hits the water. With the very same testing you would use to find needle settings, the sweet spot will be found for a given shaft. Once you find it, it will always be there. Even if you change shafts, as long as you stick with the same MFR, it will be very close. I think the only gains to be found are going to be at unloaded, WOT, so varying wind-up due to changing loads will be almost negligable.

A quote from Marty Davis in the above posted linked thread:

An example of this indexing that I have stated for MANY years is a true story:

 

I had a Beardslee prop that was a cut down 2.8 Octura. (Back then I was doing some SAW stuff). It had rounded tips and was cut down a bunch. I used it on my 40 SAW boat (20 Crapshooter with 45 K&B on mini-pipe). I would run 80-85 mph in 1979. I let Fred McBroom run the prop one day and he ran his boat up on a big boat launch ramp. Bent the prop up. His brother, Hilton, a terrific mechanic and builder said he could bend it back and make it perfect. He did, only thing one blade was substantially different in pitch. I ran the prop and it worked just OK. Put it back in my box and one day I ran it again, and it was awesome. Ran 89.9 mph. Couldn't figure out what had just happened. Started thinking about it and running it again and again. It ran different sometimes at 80 and sometimes at 89. Decided one day that nothing had changed and MAYBE I should put it on the drive dog one way and test it and then reverse it 180 degrees. THAT WAS IT. From that day on I started working with indexing props. True story and one that amazed me in its simplicity and result.

This sure sounds like a measurable result to me.

Personally, I index my own props. Not really for any the performance gain (yet), but for repeatability. I believe it DOES have an impact, and since I haven't had a chance to do the testing, I remove the variable from my set-up by always indexing the prop to the same point everytime I assemble for testing/racing.

Rodney,

I was just turned onto this, so I haven't had time to explore it at all, but.......

Take a head button and thread a new glow plug into it. Mark the head buttom to indicate where the element is welded to the bottom of the plug. Now repeat with another glow plug. And another. And another. As I am told (by what I consider to be a very reliable source), the element will orient to basically the same point with every plug. Now with this in mind, consider the effect of the pipe on the plug. When everything is just right: Needle, pipe length, etc., the plug element will be pulled out of the body of the plug after a good hard run. I've seen mine pull all the way out and sideways toward the edge of the bowl. Wouldn't it make sense to orient the plug so that the element bent the way you want it to? As I was told, if you orient the element weld toward the exhaust port, you will get better results. I can't remember if it was better performance, easier needle, plug longevity or what, but in any case, at least IMHO, it is always better to eliminate any variable that can be eliminated.

Jeff,

That's right. ;) Keep others from exploring something that might make them harder for you to catch. :rolleyes:

Thanks. Brad.

Titan Racing Components

BlackJack Hydros
"believing" prop indexing has an impact...unfortunately for all of us, does not mean its true

i find it interesting that marty's prop indexing success story is from many moons ago, with a specific non-symmetric prop, that would be difficult to repeat (thats the reason the story has been told for MANY years, recent stories just arent worth mentioning?)

what i figure, this hobby is about details, the guys who pay attention to the details usually have fast boats/win their share of heats....(ie - marty's boats will always be fast)

Take home message: marty et al, have dealt with ALOT of other details prior to putting a dam prop on a shaft...

success is in the details, which detail you want to attribute your success to is ENTIRELY up to you...

the details i choose to pay attention to, is ENTIRELY up to me

;)
 
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I`ll be BACK........ GOT TO GET SOME BOOTS!!!!!!!! :lol: :lol: :blink: :p B) Brad is the Snow off you Pond Yet? You guys need to get out & spray some fuel....... If you look @ life thru a Magnifying glass the view will always be the same...
 
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Put the boat in the water and race ......done . All this frozen water incredulous theory stuff will drive you nuts ..lets see the hard copy on the water ! :lol: :lol:
 
Here's a quote from Charles Perdue on the subject of drive line friction but couldn't the same method be used to measure drive line wind up for the purpose of indexing the prop to the piston stroke at maximum horsepower?

OK, HERE GOES.....One of the problems with drive lines (binding up/ getting hot/ wadding up the teflon liner, ect) is the very often repeated AND WRONG setup of spacing the drive dog too far away from the strut to make up for the drive cable getting shorter caused by supposedly CABLE WINDUP. When the boat is running, this pushes the cable forward causing it to press against the stuffing tube on the OUTSIDE OF THE RADIUS of the curve in the stuffing tube and the engine.

To accurately measure the amount of cable shortening, the same amount of torque has to be applied to the cable as when the boat is operating at maximum speed. This is done by holding the flywheel, twisting the stub shaft with an inch pound torque wrench. Figuring the actual amount of torque that the engine is putting out at its peak power is simple.

The formula for calculating this amount of torque is: Torque in inch pounds-force = Horsepower X 63025 divided by the Engine RPM. Say a 21 engine is putting out 3 HP at 30,000 RPM, the amount of torque that is twisting the drive cable is 6.31 inch pounds.

A 45 engine at 5 hp at 30,000 RPMs has 10.51 inch pounds. A bigger engine at say 8 HP at 30,000 RPM has 16.81 inch pounds of torque. NOT THAT MUCH, huh.

If the drive dog is slightly touching the thrust washer, between the drive dog and the strut, at the cables maximum amout of wind up, this will keep the cable from thrusting as hard against the outside radius of the stuffing tube, making a freer running drive line, allowing the boat to run faster and also eliminating problems.

Have Fun,

Charles
Thanks,

Ken [Enjoying the heck out of this discussion]
 
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