Just thinking out loud

[Roger Hooks Jr.]

I was talking to my dad one day on our way home from a race and I brought up this topic. I wondered why the large manufacturers that can produce a large quantity of entry level boats, don't make those entry level boats upgradeable to a race-able APBA/IMPBA/NAMBA comptetive boat. Maybe start with a race-able boat and tune it down for entry level use.

I am a marketer in silicon valley along with experience in promotion and graphic design. I work with companies with revenue of up 800M annually and 1200 employees world-wide. Even with this many people and resources for market research and analysis from reports to test marketing, I konw that still many products get released because of someone's strong interest or support and that is based on a best guess but more so a passion for the idea. So then the product becomes successful or not usually because of such support or lack there of. C'mon... somebody made a "pet rock" sell. There couldn't have been much research done in making that happen. Just the right person that beleived in it enough that they were willing to push it forward. Traxxas has a nice 36" electric boat... would have been great if they made fiberglass and not plastic and maybe able to accomodate nitro. I know Super Tiger also makes a RTR 40 boat but the price is kind of high (450.00) for an RTR compared to the performance it delivers (38 mph). What the market needs is someone who truly understands all aspects of the market to get the most out of their investment.

So I am a nitro fan... born and raised... and I would like to see it come back strong. This is just my humble opinion so don't shoot me for sharing but I think it could help is the support from the large manufacturers. I remember when 20 mono was the biggest class at any local meet. There would be 20 to 30 boats in the class. I remember my dad always reminding me that it would be good just to make it to the top 10. People ran Super-Tigers then K/B engines... then came the Rossis... and OS Max's. You ran a prather, or a muck hull... then came cal crafts... and it was the class to get started in if you were entering into the sport. And there were many women and kids that were a force ot be reckoned with. To me this is the perfect size boat to bring back.... thinking along the size of the small seaducer, you can rig it for electric or a nitro .15 or .18 out of the box but make all the upgrades to add .21 size engine. That way the entry-level guy can upgrade it if he wishes but never have to buy a new boat to go 50 mph... The boat is small enough not to take up too much room in a guys condo or apartment and the deep vee design can accomodate both left and right turns easily making it easier for novices to handle. I know .21 engines have come and gone in popularity and prices have sure played a part but is there still K/B engines hanging around somewhere?... as well as Rossi... maybe even Super Tiger than of course you have the CMB and the new AA. There are still choices. Just need volume from the market to make room for a price drop.

I have brought this up before to manufacturers and I have heard the arguments that the market of racers is too small to cater to them. I am not saying cater to racers but just consider them in the product development process. Consider it this way it's a funded demonstration/promo/sales force. My guess is that there is approximately 4000 active racers nation wide racing at about 150 events annually. If 25% bought and raced such a product a manufacturer would gain 1000 demonstrators, and promototers, not to mention feed back a manufacturer would gain from the R&D... as all of these guys purchasing the boat would not only generate revenue but help promote it just in their own useage of the product. I think it would help as well if the boat was some sort of scale of a real super boat. This may appeal more to the leisure boater. I think this has helped the popularity of the Proboat series.

And so then... knowing that the same engine design has a life cycle of about 20 years or mor1 and the same boat design has a life cycle of about 10 years or more a large enough manufacturer could invest in the line's future by keeping the price low from the start with the strategy of saturating the market so that it has a base large enough to live off of parts reaching a break even point in about three years and increasing profit after that. Of course waiting three years to be profitable could only be done by a large manufacturer but should be a tolerable timeline for a manufacturer starting from scratch with an intent of selling the same product for 10 years or more.

This may work for a gas boat as well.

I think a manufacturer with the pockets to build a complete solution would benefit long term and not only support but drive the R/C boating market to a new level and would reap the benefits of the revenue for years to come. Wish I had the cash and the resources. I would certainly do it myself. Might want to start a R/C Boat Racing Magazine along with it. Don't laugh! Apple took the same approach. They published a magazine primarily to promote their own products but now sell ads to a host of software and hardware developers making products for their products.

Well... there is my brain dump on this subject. Not sure if this is the most appropriate place but thought I would dump it all in a public forum and see what comes back.

 

[RaceCraftBearings]

I think Mike Zabrowski, Russ Williams and JD have done that and I hope will continue to do that given that our economy turns around!

The TS2 is in my opinion a nice entry level boat as I aquired two, one for each of my godsons who had never been into Radio Control at all. Chris Wittrig and I set them up for the Stock class and they went racing first in local District races where they both won trophies at these events and enjoyed themselves! I then took both of them them to the 2006 NAMBA Nats in Florida where they ran the Kids Class and had a blast! At the same event the TS2 also won the Mod Class.

Thanks

Mike, Russ and JD

It would be great to see other MFGS follow suit!

 

[Bill Gibson]

This may sound simplistic(its the only way i know) but Aquacraft nearly did it with the Miss Vegas....everything was so close dimensionly to a sport 21 hydro that with if the boat had specced out to a legal sport 21 hull, and a cheap 21 motor could have been concieved to use in the hull, the new boater could have easily upgraded to a better(faster) motor after some stick time at the races....im not knocking Aquacraft mind you, ive had a BALL running/racing a Vegas, and im glad they are doing what they do to promote inexpensive model boating....i simply agree with where you are going! Its not fun to admit, but ease of operation and MONEY in these times are playing a big part in the state of our hobby, though i recognize that there are people (Glenn Quarles, Al Hobbs, Aquacraft, and others) that are actually tying to do something about it!

 

[anthony_marquart]

I think we will be seeing products like this in the near future. I think manufactures are already looking at this. N/R with the offering of the 3 and 5 port engines is a fantastic start. Without a reasonible engine to upgrade to this theory makes no sense, but be have that now. I'm running a N/R 5 port and I think it's by far the best engine I've ever owned for the money. If that engine was converted to an OB we would see tons of upgraded "off the shelf" .21 tunnels..

I think, hope, we will see a rebound in model boating. Every car guy I've taken to a boat race was in awe of the power and contol of the models.,.. the price was just over the top...

just my thoughts..

 

[Tom Foley]

This may sound simplistic(its the only way i know) but Aquacraft nearly did it with the Miss Vegas....everything was so close dimensionly to a sport 21 hydro that with if the boat had specced out to a legal sport 21 hull, and a cheap 21 motor could have been concieved to use in the hull, the new boater could have easily upgraded to a better(faster) motor after some stick time at the races....im not knocking Aquacraft mind you, ive had a BALL running/racing a Vegas, and im glad they are doing what they do to promote inexpensive model boating....i simply agree with where you are going! Its not fun to admit, but ease of operation and MONEY in these times are playing a big part in the state of our hobby, though i recognize that there are people (Glenn Quarles, Al Hobbs, Aquacraft, and others) that are actually tying to do something about it!

I really think the bottom line is this ...at no point in the future will plug and play people wake up and say " Wow , isn't model boating so much fun I really want to get involved ". With internet games , personal web sites , internet porn (yes kids do internet porn ) lack of "Plug and unplug " ability ...model boating is going to be a limited participation game not capable of supplying a fruitful customer base to warrant a manufacturing commitment on any productive level . At best now we are seeing the aspirations of individuals that have personal reasons and resources to fund these dreams . The gas engines are supplied in huge numbers for aircraft and with a few mods by in house people manufacturers are able to supply the Marine motors to those that choose to use them . The happy dream of model boating and racing is , I'm afraid , a dream . I participate in this dream and try to promote and talk about it and race as much as possible but it's and old mans sport , hobby , pastime, whatever you want to call it .

One thing is for sure ...if the boats stay on the shelf .....they might as well be those old encyclopedias i used to love to page through ...oh ...they are on the internet too so all I have to do is punch a few keys and grab another beer ....................

 

[TinoAlmanza]

I could see that happening...if there weren't so many classes. I run FE and see such a split in classes is surprising we even have a club. Luckily almost everyone has adopted a class called LSH. It has evolved over the years and isn't even an official class. Limit power supply has evened the field. Good racing and fairly affordable. Some of the big companies (Proboat and Aquacraft) saw that and made great RTR boats. With those RTR boats you can yank out the power system once you have out grown the hull and throw it in a faster hull. The whiplash, the new FE insane hull, and Mr. Thompson's new hull are great options.

As one of those internet geeks that loves games, personal websites, and especially porn :unsure: I can promise you that it we do go outside, in the summer anyways, to find a different form of excitement.

Pick an affordable class and stick with. That's the only real chance I see for boating to grow.

 

[Chris Wood]

i think it boils down to numbers.. boats in the relm of things is a nat. compaired to cars.. foley hit it on the head PLUG AND PLAY.. you go to the hobby shop. i want a car and i want to run it NOW... no problem. charge up, or fuel up and go smack the kirb.. boats, na not so much.. where can i run it.. there isn't a lake at the hobby shop. umm try the river or the local duck pond.. nope that don't work.

hobbico is trying with some entry level things. but quit honestly there market is VOLUME. nothing more, how many of brand x or z sells. dollars and cents. mike did a great job getting out the villian. sold a fair amount. but compair it to cars. not even close. I realize we are talking two different things here but the main thing that hampers boating is WHERE CAN I GO DO THIS TODAY, and how do i go get it if it dies? that is the first thing i hear at my hobby shop in town.

Boating ( since i have been in it ) has always been the smaller shops people doing it out of there house, it is something that i call NOT SOCIALLY EXCEPTABLE.. meaning you go to the hobby shops, what do you see. PLANES, TRAINS, R/C cars. not to many boats. and alot of that has to do with it not being promoted, but it is hard to promote when the hobby shops can't reccomend places to run, or know of many people that do it. I have tried to gather people in my area at the hobby shop and it is all for nothing..

I love boats, and it is in my opinion one of the harder hobbys or sports to master, but getting people involved is a tuff thing to make happen. maybe someday it will be more locally known in most areas. i think if the hobby shops got on board you would see a influx of boats over time.. maybe not but if the trend follows you might.

chris

( one of 2 boaters in a town of 300,000 people )

 

[RaceCraftBearings]

I agree with Tom and Chris in that RC Boating is not as user friendly as buying a car and finding a parking lot to run it.

I myself began boating way back and knew of no one who was into boating. I began by building a boat or two from scratch then a few Dumas kits. I went to a lake that had easy access all the way around the shoreline so when it died I could take my tennis ball on a line and toss out to get it when it came near enough to do so. It does take some thought and extra effort when dealing with the dreaded dead boat. I later got an electric tug and began using RC to fetch my RC.

It does take a strong interest in boating to want to over come the obstacles of boating. I do my best to intice new boaters to join in but it really does take a rare breed to get em hooked.

Boating will never be as big as Air or Cars/Trucks but we can still grow this hobby just give em a push!

 

[Roger Hooks Jr.]

I think Mike Zabrowski, Russ Williams and JD have done that and I hope will continue to do that given that our economy turns around!

The TS2 is in my opinion a nice entry level boat as I aquired two, one for each of my godsons who had never been into Radio Control at all. Chris Wittrig and I set them up for the Stock class and they went racing first in local District races where they both won trophies at these events and enjoyed themselves! I then took both of them them to the 2006 NAMBA Nats in Florida where they ran the Kids Class and had a blast! At the same event the TS2 also won the Mod Class.

Thanks

Mike, Russ and JD

It would be great to see other MFGS follow suit!

Yah... I believe Aquacraft and Horizon Hobby did a great deal to introduce boating to people that may not have ever considered it. Just think it might have been better if the boats they sold were already classes of the racing organizations out there. I have tried to get the interest up for these boats in my district but no such luck. The top speed 2 is closer but not popular in my district in California which is one of the larger nitro running districts in NAMBA on the west coast. Does the top speed 2 come complete RTR?

 

[Roger Hooks Jr.]

This may sound simplistic(its the only way i know) but Aquacraft nearly did it with the Miss Vegas....everything was so close dimensionly to a sport 21 hydro that with if the boat had specced out to a legal sport 21 hull, and a cheap 21 motor could have been concieved to use in the hull, the new boater could have easily upgraded to a better(faster) motor after some stick time at the races....im not knocking Aquacraft mind you, ive had a BALL running/racing a Vegas, and im glad they are doing what they do to promote inexpensive model boating....i simply agree with where you are going! Its not fun to admit, but ease of operation and MONEY in these times are playing a big part in the state of our hobby, though i recognize that there are people (Glenn Quarles, Al Hobbs, Aquacraft, and others) that are actually tying to do something about it!

Yah Aquacraft did nearly do it but some districts like my own have so many classes already that no one is willing to bust out yet another boat/class. I am not sure how well the aquacraft will run with a MAC or CMB .21 in it. Seems like it would be over powered plus I think it's dimensions don't meet the rules for Sport .21. Not sure don't quote me on that as I don't run the class.

 

[Roger Hooks Jr.]

This may sound simplistic(its the only way i know) but Aquacraft nearly did it with the Miss Vegas....everything was so close dimensionly to a sport 21 hydro that with if the boat had specced out to a legal sport 21 hull, and a cheap 21 motor could have been concieved to use in the hull, the new boater could have easily upgraded to a better(faster) motor after some stick time at the races....im not knocking Aquacraft mind you, ive had a BALL running/racing a Vegas, and im glad they are doing what they do to promote inexpensive model boating....i simply agree with where you are going! Its not fun to admit, but ease of operation and MONEY in these times are playing a big part in the state of our hobby, though i recognize that there are people (Glenn Quarles, Al Hobbs, Aquacraft, and others) that are actually tying to do something about it!

I really think the bottom line is this ...at no point in the future will plug and play people wake up and say " Wow , isn't model boating so much fun I really want to get involved ". With internet games , personal web sites , internet porn (yes kids do internet porn ) lack of "Plug and unplug " ability ...model boating is going to be a limited participation game not capable of supplying a fruitful customer base to warrant a manufacturing commitment on any productive level . At best now we are seeing the aspirations of individuals that have personal reasons and resources to fund these dreams . The gas engines are supplied in huge numbers for aircraft and with a few mods by in house people manufacturers are able to supply the Marine motors to those that choose to use them . The happy dream of model boating and racing is , I'm afraid , a dream . I participate in this dream and try to promote and talk about it and race as much as possible but it's and old mans sport , hobby , pastime, whatever you want to call it .

One thing is for sure ...if the boats stay on the shelf .....they might as well be those old encyclopedias i used to love to page through ...oh ...they are on the internet too so all I have to do is punch a few keys and grab another beer ....................

When I read your post I thought about what else there was to do when I started racing boats. You are right there is a whole lot more to do these days but then I think maybe we failed along the way with not having enough vision for the future of our sport. After all when I started racing BMX racing was not a sport. Now it's an Olympic game. Skate boards were an "occassional find" now they have skateboard parks and if you are good enough you can make a living at it. But the example I like to use, Snow boarding, is also am Olympic sport. Now for all the arguments of boats not being as convenient has planes or cars, Snowboarders drive 2 or three hours for the day. At least many in my area do. And snow is only around for 4 or 5 months out of the year. Yet I am sure we can say that is more popular than R/C boat racing and that was far from existence when many of us here started racing boats. So where did we fall short. Somewhere along the way Snowboarding was invented, caught on, got popular, marketed, promoted and became what it is today. I am sure it just took a few people in the right places along with a few rebels that wanted to go against the grain (skiers). Why couldn't (or can't) boats be done the same way.

... And what about helicopters. I also did some branding and marketing for a helicopter brand. Until recent years they were by far the hardest R/C to master. On top of that the probability of you crashing to the point that you have to fix something on your first time out is so high that they tell you that you will crash and have to come back and buy new parts right at your first purchase but yet even helicopters seem to have overtaken boats in popularity with dozens of manufacturers who pay pilots very well to compete at large events.

 

[Roger Hooks Jr.]

i think it boils down to numbers.. boats in the relm of things is a nat. compaired to cars.. foley hit it on the head PLUG AND PLAY.. you go to the hobby shop. i want a car and i want to run it NOW... no problem. charge up, or fuel up and go smack the kirb.. boats, na not so much.. where can i run it.. there isn't a lake at the hobby shop. umm try the river or the local duck pond.. nope that don't work.

hobbico is trying with some entry level things. but quit honestly there market is VOLUME. nothing more, how many of brand x or z sells. dollars and cents. mike did a great job getting out the villian. sold a fair amount. but compair it to cars. not even close. I realize we are talking two different things here but the main thing that hampers boating is WHERE CAN I GO DO THIS TODAY, and how do i go get it if it dies? that is the first thing i hear at my hobby shop in town.

Boating ( since i have been in it ) has always been the smaller shops people doing it out of there house, it is something that i call NOT SOCIALLY EXCEPTABLE.. meaning you go to the hobby shops, what do you see. PLANES, TRAINS, R/C cars. not to many boats. and alot of that has to do with it not being promoted, but it is hard to promote when the hobby shops can't reccomend places to run, or know of many people that do it. I have tried to gather people in my area at the hobby shop and it is all for nothing..

I love boats, and it is in my opinion one of the harder hobbys or sports to master, but getting people involved is a tuff thing to make happen. maybe someday it will be more locally known in most areas. i think if the hobby shops got on board you would see a influx of boats over time.. maybe not but if the trend follows you might.

chris

( one of 2 boaters in a town of 300,000 people )

Yah... this is the part that seems to be hard to overcome... the support of the local hobby shop. It's a chicken and egg. They say they will carry the product if people ask for it and people who might ask for it say they will buy it if the hobby shop carries it. I believe maybe the problem exist with us the racers. I can remember when everyone bought their fuel from the local hobby shop. Sheldon's is the name. My dad went there at least once a week to pick up parts for the boats but then guys wanted to get stuff cheaper and started dealing out of their garage and the trunk of their car. Then guys started going in together to buy fuel and plugs at wholesale cutting out the dealer all together not realizing we were cannibalizing the local support. I guess it's a lot harder for a local guy to start making parts for his car or plane so he continues to go the hobby shop but boat guys will learn to machine part on their own and make their own stuff or go to their buddy who has a mold or has a mill and lathe. Maybe we ourselves are the cause of manufacturers not supporting the sport more.

 

[Tom Foley]

Some good observations Roger . I had one of the original Snurfers ..predecessor of the snowboard in around 1970 or 71 !! I saw a similar degradation happen to Stock Outboard Racing when the "Jet Ski and Waverunners" came out . Instead of trailering , setting up and waiting around all weekend to go race your Outboard powered small Hydro or Runabout you could hop on a Ski , go almost as fast with just a bathing suit on . Kids no longer had the same love for racing with all of its complications and limitations ...and look where they are today . People especially young people drift in and out of interest in different hobbies . They get really hot on something then move on to the task of growing up , and comeback to it years later when things have settled down a bit . I could never be happy with just one hobby...I'm all over the place with all types of things , it's just the last few years or so that I've gotten heavily back into boating and it's expensive !

 

[SayMikey]

You mean something like this http://www.intlwaters.com/index.php?showtopic=42248 Granted its its own class but I can tell you first hand its helped the sport and its good racing. No its not 60 mph but its as good as any 20 tunnel boat racing

 

[Grimracer]

Roger.. Are your expectations to high for RC boat racing?

Personally I feel its all backwards. The nat orgs dont want to (because they have so many classes) let in the mas market stuff.. yet.. they complain about numbers going down.

(Dont drop a class because what are we going to do about the records. Is what I hear from time to time.) who really gives a hoot when numbers are declining.. Besides who wants to be the only one in E or F tunnel, Sport 40-1 or N-hydro anyway..

Drop some of the classes and allow mass market in.. you might be surprised what can happen.

I bet you would see more race class boat developed as the boat hobby gets healthier. Truth is im sure of it!

Grim

 

[Roger Hooks Jr.]

Roger.. Are your expectations to high for RC boat racing?

Personally I feel its all backwards. The nat orgs don’t want to (because they have so many classes) let in the mas market stuff.. yet.. they complete about numbers going down.

(Don’t drop a class because what are we going to do about the records. Is what I hear from time to time.) who really gives a hoot when numbers are declining.. Besides who wants to be the only one in E or F tunnel, Sport 40-1 or N-hydro anyway..

Drop some of the classes and allow mass market in.. you might be surprised what can happen.

I bet you would see more “race class” boat developed as the boat hobby gets healthier. Truth is im sure of it!

Grim

Wow... never thought about that from a national organization whole. I know when i CD'd the NAMBA nats a few years back I insisted on dropping any class that couldn't book at least 6 boats. We don't run Sport I or 60 or 90 Tunnel, if that's what E and F is. But What's N Hydro? But Yah... I think you are right there. Old records would just have to become "Legacy Records" retired but still remain on the books. Maybe to ease the transition maybe a rule can be past that if there is no attempt at a record for 7 years and/or not enough participation in a class for 3 (at least enough to run a class, 3 boats) then the class is retired and we move on to make room for something people have more interest in.... but just an idea to set the right expectations and criteria for retiring a class. If a class were to regain popularity it can always be voted back in the same a new class is. In observation for some reason Sport .21 is more popular in our district than .40 mono with .20 mono, .40 Hydro and .90 Hydro probably the most highly consistent among the nitro classes in our district. On one hand if I say well maybe .40 mono has died down a bit due to lack of engines... but then why is .40 hydro hanging in there. I would even say the deep vee supply has remained more healthy than the hydro supply over the past few years. I might also speak of the same engine shortage in 20 Hydro but yet Sport .21 hangs around. And then if we talk money why is half the fleet of the .90 class twins? Can't make any assumptions because the boats are all over the place. On the other hand gas is also expensive, yet plentiful, promoted as easier, so they healthy and growing.

Well maybe what you say Mark will open some eyes to some people reading. So we can do what needs to be done to do this thing around. If there are any arguments against what you propose I hope they voice them hear so we can address them, I myself, have no reservations about dropping old abandoned classes to adopt new ones. As it has once been said. The only constant is change.

 

[Roger Hooks Jr.]

You mean something like this http://www.intlwaters.com/index.php?showtopic=42248 Granted its its own class but I can tell you first hand its helped the sport and its good racing. No its not 60 mph but its as good as any 20 tunnel boat racing

Cool.

But.. I can remember when Mark Grim pulled up to the hot pit walking down one of these. I think he got razzzed the whole way down. LOL! A guy known for going over 100 mph on many occassions... running a stock RTR. No one could believe it? They thought he was carrying it for somebody's kid or something. LOL!

I think it's cool. I can't seem to fire the class up in my district or even find the guys in the local area that bought these things in my area which is the San Francisco Bay Area area. I believe it's the 4th largest market in the area, in the biggest state by population and the most waterways of any area and the highest median income in the nation from what I hear. So demographically there should be a lot of Vegas' running around somewhere. Maybe aquacraft has a database of purchases in this area and can send out a mailer or something inviting these guys out to the race. I open my Grand Prix Classic Race ever year in February to try to promote these class of boats. Horizon Hobby donated 6 boats one year so we ran that with everyone entered in the race that wanted to also drive these boats having a chance to run. We ran the LUV plan top drivers made it to the main event. We even offered newbies to run for free in this class at the event to attract new guys but maybe that part wasn't promoted well enough, we got no newbies looking to run. Then we ran the RTR class and a few people brought there boats but no new guys just the usual guys that also had Miss Vegas... But nothing seems to be catching on with these little RTRs in my area... but I will say new Gas Guys keep popping up.

 

[jeepers]

I think the largest problem in getting new boaters is still were to run the boats. with water rights being so strict, lakes on private properties ect. how do you get around that??

I can think of at least a half dozen lakes within a 3 min to 10 min. drive from my house. and you cant run on a single one of them.

 

[JRXHydros]

I think the largest problem in getting new boaters is still were to run the boats. with water rights being so strict, lakes on private properties ect. how do you get around that??

I can think of at least a half dozen lakes within a 3 min to 10 min. drive from my house. and you cant run on a single one of them.

You hit that right..... about water rights.....a big problem in st louis........

 

[Ron Olson]

When the Big 2 came out with .15-.18 boats then .32's and other odd sizes, I wondered, why didn't they shoot for already existing classes? Would have it been so hard to go to .12's instead of .18's? There is already an ABS class on the IMPBA books which to my knowledge has never been used. Instead of using an existing clas the sanctioning bodies had to create more.

Other classes are dying off in some districts while thriving in others. Where do we see (IMPBA) C and E classes run any more with maybe the exception of the Internat's and record trials? Those who raced the RTR class this year at Hobart weren't exactly wet behind the ears newbie racers but people if I mentioned their names in here most would know.

Actually, this thread would be better suited for the RTR or General boating forum. As interesting as it is and can be this just seems like the wrong place to have it.