Judging Is A "thankless Job"

[Mark Grannis]

When going to out of your area events, it takes watching some heats to get an idea of what is going to get called. Drivers can then adjust to the judging.

Judging will always be thankless, but does make the event. I'm not trying to be over critical, but I did just leave a race with this on my mind. When calls are missed or not called the driving becomes more aggressive. Then I get bonzi'd three times in two heats of the same class, become frustrated, voice concerns (actually rather loudly...i'm sorry for that), then the judging is over compensated.

(I stated.....judges can't win!)

The best judging is based in being consistant, and defining the "lane width". If IMPBA rule book has been updated in the last two years to remove "lanes" then my comments have no merit but, I recall the lane width is to be two boats wide . Explaining how those widths are going to be enforced is critical, for "impedence" has no value without lane widths.

This judging strategy works well for three people.

Mic guy in the middle

Person on the right side of mic judges the left turn.

Person on the left side of mic judges the right turn.

Now communication between the corner judges can occur without turning away from their turn to speak to the mic guy. Now the turn judges can also view a much larger portion of the course.

The judge on the right has full view with a better angle for the first turn.

The judge on the left can assist with the lane change violation during the start.

Mic guy has the start.

Whatever rules of racing being used or not used, I wish all racers could grasp this one idea. Take the judges out of the situation. Don't risk missing out on a long time memorable moment by *forcing a bonehead move. Six laps does go quickly. However, when compared to the numerous decesions and manuvers made during a race while driving side by side for several laps, it feels like forever! Don't deny yourself and your fellow racer.

*Before I get feedback, there is a difference between forcing and making...just look within.

Lastly, If i ever get bonzi'd by that yellow E Hydro again your engine will be in the bottom of the lake when I knock it off it's mounts, for I will not cut those bouys to avoid you again! (I'm lookin within)

MG

 

[Marty Davis]

A little more input on this.....

When the Charleston Club hosted the IMPBA Internats with the full week schedule, I was asked to head up the challenge.

The FIRST person that I asked to help was Mark Grannis to be the Head Referee. He accepted and we started talking and thinking about how to most effectively do that task. We developed a list of those people who were entered that we knew would be great referees. BEFORE any racing started we had meetings about hoe and what to look for and made sure that all were on the same page in regard to refereeing. I believe that the refereeing was the best that I had seen in MANY YEARS and was greatly pleased with Mark's efforts.

So, listen to him on this, as he really knows what he is talking about. Refereeing is one of the most important, if not the most important aspect of running off a great race. Those people that judge the starts is an example. Some look and if all the boats are together, it is a good start. Many work very hard at getting an advantage during milling and to not be rewarded by this kind of call is not appropriate.

Others opinions would be interesting.....

 

[brad nichols]

Volunteering is the most thankless job you can ever do!!!!!! No mater what you say or do, it will never be right to someone. People need to give their head a shake before going off on a rant about a call or the way something was done. We all interpet things differently in our own eyes or mind. Think about how you would feel if someone did that to your wife or child before you start in on someone who is trying to do their best and help run an event, and if you can do better then by all means volenteer to help out!!!

My two cents and my rant

Brad

 

[Grimracer]

[SIZE=medium]Lets break it down.. calling a start.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]At the masters last year there were teams of people that ran the race. I personally am not a fan of this (lacks major constancy) BUT… as long as we were up there during the same classes each time the drivers had an idea of what that set of judges were going to do.. At least after the first round! We might not have judged there mono heat but had them for instance in sport 40 each round. That’s the inconstant part. I was a part of a team. And I was judged by a team.. we all got it.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]We did run into issues and from the scoring tower and I got to tell ya.. calling a start is not that hard. We hear it at every pre-race meeting.. “ Joe asks…. Hey Timmy….Where is the start line?” Timmy the CD will call the corner of this to the buoy of that or whatever.. Not hard. We all see it.. its part of the game we are used to. When they say that pay very particular attention to what they are saying and make sure you “understand it”.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]I was bitched at and crabbed at heat after heat by the drivers for being over and they were. (again its not hard). From my vantage point it’s a piece of cake. From the racers not so much especially when you’re trying to win a race and you have a fast driver in your heat.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]If.. you are going to push the start line you “WILL” open the door for controversy. From you, your “buddies” and the other racers that feel they have been wronged. I have seen “others” besides the racer crab and ***** about a starts they were not involved in because “he should have been called over” now I have to yada yata in the last round…. .. ya see what I mean..[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Learn when to push a start and when not to. My advice.. don’t give em something to talk about![/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Also.. if you are called over your over.. (at least with me on the stand).. your bitching in open air! I have the best seat in the house remember! You have two choices.. Get over it (or not) and move on OR come up and do it yourself![/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Grim[/SIZE]

 

[Jim Recker Jr.]

"

Person on the right side of mic judges the left turn.

Person on the left side of mic judges the right turn."

Gentlemen, I love this approach. I am not knocking the current or past IMPBA or NAMBA rules, however would like to see this put in place at every race. Yes it takes 2 more experienced set of eyes. (bodies) But the end result is it will be called correctly. Super job Mark.

 

[David Murany]

The Saginaw club here in D2 runs a bright green string from the clock to the stand. With this method it is really difficult to argue a start call.

 

[Terry Keeley]

The Saginaw club here in D2 runs a bright green string from the clock to the stand. With this method it is really difficult to argue a start call.

Using a string for a starting line makes it real easy to make good calls, also a clock that beeps or has some other sound at the start helps...

 

[Mike Larson]

Small potatoes chime in... as the powers that be discuss this... which.. i think is very good... the hobby is moving in directions with the racing being the major factor in influencing decisions of many people.... I'm still a 15 year driving novice... I've been Dq'd, a coupla times, even Dq'd myself twice over the years... ( yeah i made a mistake, and ill admit it),I been washed down, t boned, pinned to bouys, you name it... but here's the deal... completely out of respect for the guy or guys running the race... its one race.... im over... thats it, im over.... i hit a guy, washed him down, went from 10 to 1,( nobody does things on purpose right?we're racing on water, and not slot cars) and i get called... thats the call.... thats the call, and thats it.... period.... I've never, ever, to the best of my knowledge bitched at a CD or whatnot, because what does it solve?..( yeah, I've grit my teeth too) Ruins my fun... ruins whoever else's fun... for what?.. A plaque, maybe a little trophy, bragging rights, what?... Is there something wrong with me, that upon cutting a bouy, and reporting it to possibly a smaller race venue with no turn judges.... no... its the right thing to do..... same deal ( again maybe no turnies)... blow a guy off, wash him down... whatever...my bad... you win. when.. did the hobby get so intense that people even have the gall to question a race officials call anyway?...( this, is my number one letdown, as the racing stops, and the screaming stupidity goes on) We as a racing group, put that man, or men up there to trust in their judgment, and thats gospel period...intensively, if you sign in, imo, you should delegate your trust to that venue, their officials, hands down and thats that... sayin it.. its a toy boat race.... ( i personally dont like this adage as i myself approach my boats as machines to test, run and respectively race accordingly, i enter my best tuned effort, compete the best i can, and hey... i might win one)... and i place my trust unquestionably in the officials to run the **** thing to the best of their ability.... most of them volunteeers scared to death to even do it in the first place...... we're all human... face it... who's holding the wheel?.. You are. Run up that guy?... wash him down?.. cut a bouy?.. You know it, your pit guy knows it, having a set enough to face reality that you made a mistake possibly... sure would make for more fun, less controversy and a good time for all... yeah... ya won the little plastic/wood deal.... i have 30 of 'em, maybe... some are more important memories than others.... I had... good honest fun winning them.... lucky too... Atlanta's fresh over... and theres bitchin about Atlanta....i wasnt there.... ( Mark, you're one of the pinnacle hydro racers in the country, and no disrespect by far).... and it'll continue to the next big event...... the trend.. of not being able to have a good competition anywhere anymore is where its at... why?.. How many guys in your district hanging up this year?... per a bad race experience?... If, i had a bad time somewhere, be it the drivers, the officials, whatever ( i know the guys in my district, how they mill, etc, some have quirks i can actually exploit at times, some are dangerous, yadda, yadda, and if i dont/didnt like a particular venue, i wont go... i have, battle boats i may lose with just for certain races, because a box of sticks, well... sorry 'bout your boat brother.... wont hurt me so bad.... .I do, make it a point to shake the host club guys hands, for the job nobody wants to do,good calls, bad calls, and move on.... work on my boats for the next one..... more intense fun... right?... When it stops...whats the point?... its just not about the win.... rant. See you boys on the circuit... Mike

 

[Mark Grannis]

just to add some clarity on why I wrote this thread. I don't race for the trophy. I race for the shaking, adrenaline, and memories. I remember a heat from the very first Indy Unlimited when I was a kid. I want my fellow racers to value the potential of a memorable heat.

The suggestion of how three judges can view the most racing area of the pond and communicate efficiently was not intended to bash Atlanta's judging. My frustrations are aimed at the driver of that yellow boat. I still am not sure who that was, and it no longer matters. My wish for him is to value the opportunity of a six lap side by side unforgettable experience and not deprive that same potential from another racer.

Respectfully,

Mark

 

[dr gary turner]

just to add some clarity on why I wrote this thread. I don't race for the trophy. I race for the shaking, adrenaline, and memories. I remember a heat from the very first Indy Unlimited when I was a kid. I want my fellow racers to value the potential of a memorable heat.

The suggestion of how three judges can view the most racing area of the pond and communicate efficiently was not intended to bash Atlanta's judging. My frustrations are aimed at the driver of that yellow boat. I still am not sure who that was, and it no longer matters. My wish for him is to value the opportunity of a six lap side by side unforgettable experience and not deprive that same potential from another racer.

Respectfully,

Mark

 

[dr gary turner]

Mark. Do you remember the incredible E-hydro heat you and I had in Charlston 3-4 yrs ago. It was the best ever. Folks were on the bank cheering. I suspect in today's environment either one of us would have been DQ'd for driving in fractions. The last lap I blew over and you won. I hope sometime in the future we can have a heat like that again.

 

[Don Ferrette]

I suspect in today's environment either one of us would have been DQ'd for driving in fractions.

So what is your point Doc, that races are being called tighter now?? Well that is a good thing, if you commit an infraction you should be called on it regardless of the "environment".

 

[Al Hobbs]

The rules are clear. If the judges pay attention, understand the rules, and make the calls promptly,the races move along much smoother and faster.

My experience has been that some drivers believe they do not make any infractions and they are compelled to deny any calls against them. Arguing with a judge only slows things down.

The judge is not there to pick on any driver, he is there to protect the drivers who are obeying the rules. If you are behind the startline when the horn goes off, someone has to protect your rights from a driver who happens to be over the line. The same is true for lane infractions and corners.

Drivers are not being watched to find infractions, they are being watched so their rights to a fair race are defended.

Al Hobbs

 

[El Zorro]

The rules are clear. If the judges pay attention, understand the rules, and make the calls promptly,the races move along much smoother and faster.

My experience has been that some drivers believe they do not make any infractions and they are compelled to deny any calls against them. Arguing with a judge only slows things down.

The judge is not there to pick on any driver, he is there to protect the drivers who are obeying the rules. If you are behind the startline when the horn goes off, someone has to protect your rights from a driver who happens to be over the line. The same is true for lane infractions and corners.

Drivers are not being watched to find infractions, they are being watched so their rights to a fair race are defended.

Al Hobbs

One couldn't have said this better. Thanks, Al.

Dick Tyndall

 

[Kevin Sheren]

The rules are clear. If the judges pay attention, understand the rules, and make the calls promptly,the races move along much smoother and faster.

My experience has been that some drivers believe they do not make any infractions and they are compelled to deny any calls against them. Arguing with a judge only slows things down.

The judge is not there to pick on any driver, he is there to protect the drivers who are obeying the rules. If you are behind the startline when the horn goes off, someone has to protect your rights from a driver who happens to be over the line. The same is true for lane infractions and corners.

Drivers are not being watched to find infractions, they are being watched so their rights to a fair race are defended.

Al Hobbs

One couldn't have said this better. Thanks, Al.

Dick Tyndall

Well said Al.

Kevin Sheren

 

[Andy Greene]

From day one in all three of the local clubs I run at, I have tried my best to become involved and help out, whether that be in the tower turn judging or CD smaller classes- to running recovery. The thing I see is, at one point or another EVERYONE needs to spend even just a little time in the tower, if not turn judging, just observing. It truely benefits and educates a racer that may or may not appreciate the thankless task it takes to CD and Turn Judge a race.

Mark is spot on on the left guy watching right and vise versa- Its a much clearer line of sight, and makes for 3 pair of eyes on the start.

Lane infractions and racing deals , are a very hard line to draw and make the call (unless its blatant) during certain heats - And it takes a collective , spot on call - consistently being the key- as Mark pointed out. A Thankless job doesnt cover it , IMHO

The best thing to do if you feel you where called incorrectly, is to stay on the stand- let the CD do his job and have a CIVIL discussion with those involved and the CD at the end of the heat, deal with the call you got from there and move on.

That said , Mark

- no offense-but the entire point of your post was to take a shot where you feel as if you where wronged, correct me if I am wrong.

That alone is the same as arguing with the CD, IMHO , esp when you make references to retaliation - you made good points , but drawing a line in the sand as to how you will treat it the next time wont change the outcome of what has already happened. Once again, just an observation, take it as you will. Chit happens REAL FAST LIKE in most of the Hydro heats - you know that, I wasnt there and didnt see your particular situation , but if your pissed about a call made or not made- make the post about it- not sidestep into a bash.

Just my humble .02

Andy

Andy

 

[dwilfong]

Imagine the new guy reading this.

Think thy will want to race?

Time to remember it's just a toy boat race not NASCAR.

I wonder why I ever got involved in this in the first place.

I know I can't edit it so time to man up as it was put so bluntly.

 

[Mark Grannis]

From day one in all three of the local clubs I run at, I have tried my best to become involved and help out, whether that be in the tower turn judging or CD smaller classes- to running recovery. The thing I see is, at one point or another EVERYONE needs to spend even just a little time in the tower, if not turn judging, just observing. It truely benefits and educates a racer that may or may not appreciate the thankless task it takes to CD and Turn Judge a race.

Mark is spot on on the left guy watching right and vise versa- Its a much clearer line of sight, and makes for 3 pair of eyes on the start.

Lane infractions and racing deals , are a very hard line to draw and make the call (unless its blatant) during certain heats - And it takes a collective , spot on call - consistently being the key- as Mark pointed out. A Thankless job doesnt cover it , IMHO

The best thing to do if you feel you where called incorrectly, is to stay on the stand- let the CD do his job and have a CIVIL discussion with those involved and the CD at the end of the heat, deal with the call you got from there and move on.

That said , Mark

- no offense-but the entire point of your post was to take a shot where you feel as if you where wronged, correct me if I am wrong.

That alone is the same as arguing with the CD, IMHO , esp when you make references to retaliation - you made good points , but drawing a line in the sand as to how you will treat it the next time wont change the outcome of what has already happened. Once again, just an observation, take it as you will. Chit happens REAL FAST LIKE in most of the Hydro heats - you know that, I wasnt there and didnt see your particular situation , but if your pissed about a call made or not made- make the post about it- not sidestep into a bash.

Just my humble .02

Andy

Andy

Andy,

You missed the points, and it is difficult to seperate the tone of pleading instead of complaining in written form. However, here is my last effort.

1) The judging layout I offered was only to give a more efficient way to judge racing.

2) The call or no call portion I have pointed out is aimed at drivers not the judges or judging. "My Wish" is fellow racers valued the potential of having a memorable heat as much as I do. This mind set would reduce the avoidable fouls by racing clean, and judging would be much easier. Sure there are always going to be mishaps or driver judgement errors, but by starting with a clean racing thought from the driver those mishaps will diminish.

3) I stated, I will not cut the bouys again to avoid the collision which will put his engine in the bottom of the lake. I did not say is was going hunting for that yellow boat in retaliation.

You with me now?

Doc, I do remember that heat in Charleston. It was a shame you blew it off. It was nice reliving that heat again when we saw each other in Atalnta. Get that knee fixed!

MG

 

[Andy Greene]

No Mark , Im not "with you now" - because #2 and #3 totally contradict themselves . Whatever , Im wasnt trying to argue- just pointing out how the typed and spoken word can be misconstrued - obviously the issue here.

Andy