IMPBA Internats Format

[bzubee]

Chuck the normal boat count for US-1 classes have been almost 20 boats or more per class

multily that by 14 classes. The most you might save would be 2 days if the weather didn't delay everything. Believe me I'm sure alot of people would love to have a shorter race. If this heat racing goes over I would also expect an increase in attendance. Since this is primarily a "heat racing orgnaization" it would follow more members would want to attend. When the presently used format came about there was also alot of people that didn't like the idea of a new format now some of those same racers are saying how much they actually like this format.

Like Don pointed out and I have also pointed out it is really left up to the host club on what format they would like to use.

The main thing is we first have to have a club , district , group willing to step up and host the event first.

Chuck the only thing is with the alternate National format that Don developed is it won't really save much time the length will still be pretty close to the same as the 2 Internats formats we have. Only way to shorten it is to limit entries per person.

Bill, I'm confused about this. Let's look at the times. Assume there is a 12 boat class, meaning there would be two heats per round for the qualifiers. The rules for the US#1 format say 5 heats need to be run, so that means a total of 10 heats per class. Let's also assume averages of 9 minutes per heat.

Further, let's assume 6 minutes per timing, which includes some for pit, some for timing, plus occasional dead boats. If this is high or low, let me know and I'll revise my numbers. Timing 6 boats in the straight and oval would mean 12 timings.

The new format says 4 heats which means a total of 8 heats for the qualifying round followed by 3 championship heats. This gives a total of 11 heats.

Current format:

10 heats x 9 minutes per heat = 90 minutes

12 timings x 6 minutes per timing = 72 minutes

Total time is 162 minutes, or a bit less than 3 hours

[/b]Heat only format:

11 heats x 9 minutes = 99 minutes

 

Time saved = 63 minutes per class

 

Multiply this by the number of US#1 classes and it's easy to see that it could save a day.

 

I ran these estimates against this year's internats and found that it could save around 9 hours. Further, if you assumed an 8 hour racing day, the numbers say the US#1 classes could be covered in less than 3.5 days. Obviously, time needs to be added in case there are delays due to weather, equipment problems, breaks for lunch, etc, but the bottom line is a heat racing format would definitely save time.

 

[user 115]

Chuck the normal boat count for US-1 classes have been almost 20 boats or more per classmultily that by 14 classes. The most you might save would be 2 days if the weather didn't delay everything. Believe me I'm sure alot of people would love to have a shorter race. If this heat racing goes over I would also expect an increase in attendance. Since this is primarily a "heat racing orgnaization" it would follow more members would want to attend. When the presently used format came about there was also alot of people that didn't like the idea of a new format now some of those same racers are saying how much they actually like this format.

Like Don pointed out and I have also pointed out it is really left up to the host club on what format they would like to use.

The main thing is we first have to have a club , district , group willing to step up and host the event first.

Chuck the only thing is with the alternate National format that Don developed is it won't really save much time the length will still be pretty close to the same as the 2 Internats formats we have. Only way to shorten it is to limit entries per person.

Bill, I'm confused about this. Let's look at the times. Assume there is a 12 boat class, meaning there would be two heats per round for the qualifiers. The rules for the US#1 format say 5 heats need to be run, so that means a total of 10 heats per class. Let's also assume averages of 9 minutes per heat.

Further, let's assume 6 minutes per timing, which includes some for pit, some for timing, plus occasional dead boats. If this is high or low, let me know and I'll revise my numbers. Timing 6 boats in the straight and oval would mean 12 timings.

The new format says 4 heats which means a total of 8 heats for the qualifying round followed by 3 championship heats. This gives a total of 11 heats.

Current format:

10 heats x 9 minutes per heat = 90 minutes

12 timings x 6 minutes per timing = 72 minutes

Total time is 162 minutes, or a bit less than 3 hours

[/b]Heat only format:

11 heats x 9 minutes = 99 minutes

 

Time saved = 63 minutes per class

 

Multiply this by the number of US#1 classes and it's easy to see that it could save a day.

 

I ran these estimates against this year's internats and found that it could save around 9 hours. Further, if you assumed an 8 hour racing day, the numbers say the US#1 classes could be covered in less than 3.5 days. Obviously, time needs to be added in case there are delays due to weather, equipment problems, breaks for lunch, etc, but the bottom line is a heat racing format would definitely save time.

 

 

 

If the excel spreadsheet Don received is correct and the race could be held in 4 days(say 5 for argument sake) then I think you'll have more clubs willing to put forth the effort. With increased attendance from a shorter overall race, additional help will be a natural by-product.

 

Start the racing on Saturday and be done by Wednesday. If specialty classes are held at the end, then most people would be done Monday or Tuesday.

 

Charley

 

[Joe_Knesek]

The time saved for the club does not change with the new format but for the racer it can save days. For instance at this year's Internats 20 Tunnel ran on Sunday & Monday. The time trials were on Thursday & Friday. If I would have made the time trials I would have spent 6 days to run 1 boat. With the alternative format it would have only been 3 days. The club makes more money because more racers are able to attend.

I don't buy the idea that the best all around racer is distinguished by time trials. Records are not broken at the Internats. Many of the better time trial boats do not qualify so those who do make it are only proving they are better than 6 or so other boats in the class and the best time trial boats never get the chance to prove themselves.

 

[Andy Greene]

Chuck the normal boat count for US-1 classes have been almost 20 boats or more per classmultily that by 14 classes. The most you might save would be 2 days if the weather didn't delay everything. Believe me I'm sure alot of people would love to have a shorter race. If this heat racing goes over I would also expect an increase in attendance. Since this is primarily a "heat racing orgnaization" it would follow more members would want to attend. When the presently used format came about there was also alot of people that didn't like the idea of a new format now some of those same racers are saying how much they actually like this format.

Like Don pointed out and I have also pointed out it is really left up to the host club on what format they would like to use.

The main thing is we first have to have a club , district , group willing to step up and host the event first.

Chuck the only thing is with the alternate National format that Don developed is it won't really save much time the length will still be pretty close to the same as the 2 Internats formats we have. Only way to shorten it is to limit entries per person.

Bill, I'm confused about this. Let's look at the times. Assume there is a 12 boat class, meaning there would be two heats per round for the qualifiers. The rules for the US#1 format say 5 heats need to be run, so that means a total of 10 heats per class. Let's also assume averages of 9 minutes per heat.

Further, let's assume 6 minutes per timing, which includes some for pit, some for timing, plus occasional dead boats. If this is high or low, let me know and I'll revise my numbers. Timing 6 boats in the straight and oval would mean 12 timings.

The new format says 4 heats which means a total of 8 heats for the qualifying round followed by 3 championship heats. This gives a total of 11 heats.

Current format:

10 heats x 9 minutes per heat = 90 minutes

12 timings x 6 minutes per timing = 72 minutes

Total time is 162 minutes, or a bit less than 3 hours

[/b]Heat only format:

11 heats x 9 minutes = 99 minutes

 

Time saved = 63 minutes per class

 

Multiply this by the number of US#1 classes and it's easy to see that it could save a day.

 

I ran these estimates against this year's internats and found that it could save around 9 hours. Further, if you assumed an 8 hour racing day, the numbers say the US#1 classes could be covered in less than 3.5 days. Obviously, time needs to be added in case there are delays due to weather, equipment problems, breaks for lunch, etc, but the bottom line is a heat racing format would definitely save time.

 

 

 

If the excel spreadsheet Don received is correct and the race could be held in 4 days(say 5 for argument sake) then I think you'll have more clubs willing to put forth the effort. With increased attendance from a shorter overall race, additional help will be a natural by-product.

 

Start the racing on Saturday and be done by Wednesday. If specialty classes are held at the end, then most people would be done Monday or Tuesday.

 

Charley

Is it still out of possibilty to run particular classes on particular days (ie-NAMBA format) ? That allows the guy running one-two classes to plan ahead knowing what day/days they run. It also allows someone who has the time money and resources to attend the whole frigging event if they choose. It also allows the event to run 4-5-6 days if needed. I guess its all moot if no club hosts the event.

 

[tnrcboatracer]

At the Internats the timing takes a max of 6 minutes per competitor. And there are only 2 timing attempts allowed, so the timing could take a whole lot less than 6 minutes. Once the driver has run his 2 attempts, he is done.

I can't find the alternate internats format in the rulebook on the IMPBA site. Anyone have a link to Don's proposal?

Chuck, When our club hosted the event there were a minimum of 2 heats per class, but more likely 3 and sometimes 4 heats per round. If you use 3 heats as the average times 14 US1 classes = 42 heats/round in qualifying plus and 3 more heats per class for the championship. I don't see any way that a heat race of this size can be pulled off in 4 days. Did the 4~5 days include the specialty classes?

 

[piper_chuck]

At the Internats the timing takes a max of 6 minutes per competitor. And there are only 2 timing attempts allowed, so the timing could take a whole lot less than 6 minutes. Once the driver has run his 2 attempts, he is done.

Thanks. I had to estimate. I knew the time could go up to 7.5 minutes plus retrieve, but knew that in practice it would be shorter. How much shorter depends on lots of factors...

I can't find the alternate internats format in the rulebook on the IMPBA site. Anyone have a link to Don's proposal?

It's in the March 2006 Roostertail.

Chuck, When our club hosted the event there were a minimum of 2 heats per class, but more likely 3 and sometimes 4 heats per round. If you use 3 heats as the average times 14 US1 classes = 42 heats/round in qualifying plus and 3 more heats per class for the championship. I don't see any way that a heat race of this size can be pulled off in 4 days. Did the 4~5 days include the specialty classes?

The numbers I used were from the 2006 Internats. I may have been off a few heats, I don't have the heat sheets, but I think I was pretty close. The less than 4 day estimate is for just the US#1 classes. Any specialty classes would add to the overall length.

By your numbers, 42 heats per round x 4 rounds plus 14 finals heats x 3 rounds equals a total of 210 rounds. If the average round took 8 minutes and there were 8 hours per day of racing, which leaves some time for open water, the time for the 14 classes would be 3.5 days. Increase the minutes/heat to 9 and it's still a bit below 4 days.

 

[piper_chuck]

Is it still out of possibilty to run particular classes on particular days (ie-NAMBA format) ? That allows the guy running one-two classes to plan ahead knowing what day/days they run. It also allows someone who has the time money and resources to attend the whole frigging event if they choose. It also allows the event to run 4-5-6 days if needed. I guess its all moot if no club hosts the event.

I sure hope this could be done. Allowing someone to attend for a shorter length of time could go a long way toward opening this up to more of us.

 

[piper_chuck]

The time saved for the club does not change with the new format but for the racer it can save days. For instance at this year's Internats 20 Tunnel ran on Sunday & Monday. The time trials were on Thursday & Friday. If I would have made the time trials I would have spent 6 days to run 1 boat. With the alternative format it would have only been 3 days. The club makes more money because more racers are able to attend.

With the alternate format, it should be possible to complete racing for one class in one, or perhaps 2 days.

 

[topfuel443]

My Computer still shows the poll results as 32, 30 and 36% respectively. From what im reading, other peoples computers show different results.... whats the polll results at this point?

~James

 

[Steve Sutton]

Marty

First, what was "not correct" about what I said? I said nothing about "poor heat racing". I said the time trials gives a person "a chance to make up for not doing as well during heat racing".

Moving on, are you familiar with the alternate race format for the internats? I'm asking because your second paragraph makes it sound like someone could somehow win without going head to head with the other top finishing drivers. Since the heat racing format puts the top 6 finishers from the qualifying round into the championship round, there's no way what you suggest could happen. This heat racing format figures out who is the best, the top 6 qualifiers after four rounds, and then puts them against each other for 3 more rounds to determine the "best of the best".

Chuck:

I would have absolutely no problem with that format. It is nearly the same as what is used in car racing and except that timing on the oval was used in the Masters Format, it is a GREAT way to have people decide US#1.

No problem whatsoever with that format....

Marty Davis

Huh?? Seven pages back & forth about not wanting to use the optional National Champion heat race format & now you're agreeing with it? Does everyone know how the National Champion format option actually works? Here it is one more time- MINIMUM of 4 qualifying rounds (yes you could do 5 if you want to) & then the top 6 go head to head in 3 rounds of "best of the best" heat racing to determine the Nation Champion. First place overall in qualifying rounds starts with 400 points in Championship rounds, second place overall starts with 300 points, etc, etc. You would have to kick ass for at least 7 rounds to win it all, no cake walk there. And BTW- I got an Excel spread sheet sent to me last night that clearly showed how that all of the nitro classes in this format could easily be run in 4 days, I'll see if he can post it here.

Don,

I would post the Excel spread sheet that I put together just out of intrest to see how much time could be saved doing the new Internats format. I have CD'd many a race in D12 if you don't believe me just ask around to any IMPBA member in D12. I try to run a tight ship and keep the events moving along at a rather brisk pace in order to get as many rounds of racing in as possible in one weekend event. So based on my years of experince CD'ing races and seeing all of the comments being made with regards to the new Internats optional racing format I was curious as to how we could possibly have people come and race their desired class or classes and have those classes run and crowned National Champions for possibly two (2) classes each day. That way the added costs and extended staying could be eliminated for individuals who do not desire to stay for the entire 7-8 day time period. The boat counts were project / estimated and then the heats were developed based on the projected boat counts. The results were rather intresting and I would say there is time to be saved and expenses for extended stays at the Internats would lessen to the individual contestants that don't want to stay the entire week. Tell me how to post the information and I will share my estimated information for everyone to review. Please note that the layout of days and classes are from what I can remeber from the 1997, 1998, and 1999 Internats that I attended and was one of the many individuals who helped run the 1999 Internats while I was the Director in D12.

I must say that when the proposed change from the original US-1 form was introduced all of the same disputes and disscusion I have seen on this new format took place. It was going to ruin the accomplishment of getting the US-1 title, The present US-1 format was tried on a trail bases and showed a very positive effect on the attendance of the internats that followed, and was formally adapted to the IMPBA. How due I know this ? I was on the board when the change was made to the present US-1 format being used. This change helped both in time and it brought more boats and particapation to the IMPBA Internats. This was a change then and it looks like the IMPBA is about to got thru another evloution which again might improve upon the clubs willingness to put on the Internats as well as getting more members to attend one of RC boatings greatest events.

I really enjoyed the Internats I have attended but due to college tuitions and job requirements I also cannot take the extended time off to go to this fantastic event. I would say lets give the new format at least a chance and see how it works out hopefully one of the clubs or Districts will be willing to grab the bull by the horns an give it a try. Also sounds like a majority of the membership is at least intrested in giving it a go.

Again Don tell me how to post the sheet and I will do it or any one who is intrested send me PM and I will email a copy of it to you to look at.

 

[Steve Sutton]

Marty

First, what was "not correct" about what I said? I said nothing about "poor heat racing". I said the time trials gives a person "a chance to make up for not doing as well during heat racing".

Moving on, are you familiar with the alternate race format for the internats? I'm asking because your second paragraph makes it sound like someone could somehow win without going head to head with the other top finishing drivers. Since the heat racing format puts the top 6 finishers from the qualifying round into the championship round, there's no way what you suggest could happen. This heat racing format figures out who is the best, the top 6 qualifiers after four rounds, and then puts them against each other for 3 more rounds to determine the "best of the best".

Chuck:

I would have absolutely no problem with that format. It is nearly the same as what is used in car racing and except that timing on the oval was used in the Masters Format, it is a GREAT way to have people decide US#1.

No problem whatsoever with that format....

Marty Davis

Huh?? Seven pages back & forth about not wanting to use the optional National Champion heat race format & now you're agreeing with it? Does everyone know how the National Champion format option actually works? Here it is one more time- MINIMUM of 4 qualifying rounds (yes you could do 5 if you want to) & then the top 6 go head to head in 3 rounds of "best of the best" heat racing to determine the Nation Champion. First place overall in qualifying rounds starts with 400 points in Championship rounds, second place overall starts with 300 points, etc, etc. You would have to kick ass for at least 7 rounds to win it all, no cake walk there. And BTW- I got an Excel spread sheet sent to me last night that clearly showed how that all of the nitro classes in this format could easily be run in 4 days, I'll see if he can post it here.

Sorry posted twice

 

[bzubee]

Any takers ? Come on go for it . Contact me I will be glad to send you a copy of the Internats guide booklet. It has many great ideas and facts for hosting regular races also.

Bill Zuber

IMPBA President

[email protected]

 

[Don Ferrette]

Here is the link to where I saved the Excel spread sheet that Steve put together, an eye opener for sure-

https://www.intlwaters.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=324

Click on IMPBA National Champion format spead sheet comparision

 

[SayMikey]

Here is the link to where I saved the Excel spread sheet that Steve put together, an eye opener for sure-https://www.intlwaters.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=324

Click on IMPBA National Champion format spead sheet comparision

Sure makes it look like you could get all the nitro and special classes in 4 days. but some classes balloon to over 30 plus boats. I think it could be done. But why mess with the gas guys as they have nats lined up for at least 4 years?

 

[Scott Norris]

My Computer still shows the poll results as 32, 30 and 36% respectively. From what im reading, other peoples computers show different results.... whats the polll results at this point?
~James

James I think what you are refering to is that the first choice is for the Standard US1 Format. The second 2 choices are for Heat Racing Format, just a choice as to whether it is Nitro only or Combined. Therefore there is a 32% for the Standard US1 and a total of about 66% for some form of Heat Racing Only Format. Hope I helped. See you Sunday hopefully!

 

[piper_chuck]

Any takers ? Come on go for it . Contact me I will be glad to send you a copy of the Internats guide booklet. It has many great ideas and facts for hosting regular races also.

Any chance the guide can be posted at the IMPBA site to make it easier for everyone to get?

 

[Don Ferrette]

Here is the link to where I saved the Excel spread sheet that Steve put together, an eye opener for sure-https://www.intlwaters.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=324

Click on IMPBA National Champion format spead sheet comparision

Sure makes it look like you could get all the nitro and special classes in 4 days. but some classes balloon to over 30 plus boats. I think it could be done. But why mess with the gas guys as they have nats lined up for at least 4 years?

Yes but then there are classes that don't even hit 16 so it all balances out. Which BTW any class that can't make at least 6 or 8 boats for the Internats should be scratched anyway. Steve combined the nitro & gas just to show it could be done together and still get it done within a week. B)

 

[Tony Jacuzzi]

Heres a way to really shorten up the time a racer would have to stay. lets say like NAMBA we ran a set number of classes per day, lets just assume 5 classes per day start to finish, and lets say we AVERAGED 18 boats per class or 3 heats of 6 boats, so 5 classes times 3 heats per class times 4 rounds (5x3x4 = 60) Then add the Championship round 5 classes times 1 heat (top 6 competitors) x 3 rounds for a total of 15 more heats. Total heats in 1 day would be 75 but 5 classes are complete and National Champions are crowned in those classes. If I only run 20 mono I may have to plan on being at the Internats for 1 or 2 days. That is pretty easily done, now if I run 5 or 6 boats I am likely to be there the whole time.. Tony J

 

[Brian Schymik]

Atlanta can do 75 heats in one day, but it is tough. We usually get 60- 65 per day at a normal heat race. ( got 65 this weekend)

At our 2006 Internats there were 120 heats total for DAY1/2 and 100 heats total for DAY 3/4 FYI

4 classes per day would get it done in Tony Js calculations, and since we have 14 classes of nitro, that would take 4 days.

Specials could follow.

Brian

 

[SayMikey]

Heres a way to really shorten up the time a racer would have to stay. lets say like NAMBA we ran a set number of classes per day, lets just assume 5 classes per day start to finish, and lets say we AVERAGED 18 boats per class or 3 heats of 6 boats, so 5 classes times 3 heats per class times 4 rounds (5x3x4 = 60) Then add the Championship round 5 classes times 1 heat (top 6 competitors) x 3 rounds for a total of 15 more heats. Total heats in 1 day would be 75 but 5 classes are complete and National Champions are crowned in those classes. If I only run 20 mono I may have to plan on being at the Internats for 1 or 2 days. That is pretty easily done, now if I run 5 or 6 boats I am likely to be there the whole time.. Tony J

Tony are you willing to come race in the middle of the week? I agree lets crown national champs every day and move to the next classes . Also by cutting out a banquet and having a more informal get together every nite a contestant could save a $35.00 registration fee. The INTERNATS name would be dropped for a IMPBA NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIPS. or INTERNATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIPS. Would you start racing and end with special classes friday and saturday?