IMPBA Internats Format

[bzubee]

Marty for 1998, 1999, 2004, 2005, and 2006 the clubs have all earned about 4k to 5k clear some of those clubs have made even more. It can be a very profitable way to earn lake site improvement funds for a club.

Please note I stated EARNED because the clubs do really work for the funds.

 

[Don Ferrette]

Marty for 1998, 1999, 2004, 2005, and 2006 the clubs have all earned about 4k to 5k clear some of those clubs have made even more. It can be a very profitable way to earn lake site improvement funds for a club.
Please note I stated EARNED because the clubs do really work for the funds.

Actually let's set the record straight, in 1999 the IMPBA collected and kept all of the Internats $$$. None of the people working the event saw any proceeds of any kind for their districts, we basically worked our asses off for over a week for free.

But Bill is correct about the potential for clubs to earn large sums of $$ no matter which format is chosen. Any club and/or persons who had actually stepped up would know this already. Which BTW it is ironic how there are some commenting on "tradition" and "format" who have not hosted the event. It is also interesting how with almost 100 votes cast in the poll 2/3rds favor a heat racing format of some kind. Regardless of that, the alternate National Champion heat race format is not intended to replace the "traditional" format but rather to give a club who might not have a site that can handle the timed part (primarily SAW) a chance to get involved. If it comes down to it, a National Champion heat race event is still better than no event. It's an option, nothing more, nothing less.......

 

[Marty Davis]

Marty for 1998, 1999, 2004, 2005, and 2006 the clubs have all earned about 4k to 5k clear some of those clubs have made even more. It can be a very profitable way to earn lake site improvement funds for a club.
Please note I stated EARNED because the clubs do really work for the funds.

Actually let's set the record straight, in 1999 the IMPBA collected and kept all of the Internats $$$. None of the people working the event saw any proceeds of any kind for their districts, we basically worked our asses off for over a week for free.

But Bill is correct about the potential for clubs to earn large sums of $$ no matter which format is chosen. Any club and/or persons who had actually stepped up would know this already. Which BTW it is ironic how there are some commenting on "tradition" and "format" who have not hosted the event. It is also interesting how with almost 100 votes cast in the poll 2/3rds favor a heat racing format of some kind. Regardless of that, the alternate National Champion heat race format is not intended to replace the "traditional" format but rather to give a club who might not have a site that can handle the timed part (primarily SAW) a chance to get involved. If it comes down to it, a National Champion heat race event is still better than no event. It's an option, nothing more, nothing less.......

Don:

Just my opinion, but I don't agree that "If it comes down to it, a National Champion heat race event is still better than no event..."

Like some have said, skipping a year is not a problem if no club comes to host the Nats. I would much prefer to skip a year and have a great Internats the next year using the format that will crown a deserving US#1.

Marty Davis

 

[piper_chuck]

Marty for 1998, 1999, 2004, 2005, and 2006 the clubs have all earned about 4k to 5k clear some of those clubs have made even more. It can be a very profitable way to earn lake site improvement funds for a club.
Please note I stated EARNED because the clubs do really work for the funds.

Actually let's set the record straight, in 1999 the IMPBA collected and kept all of the Internats $$. None of the people working the event saw any proceeds of any kind for their districts, we basically worked our asses off for over a week for free.

But Bill is correct about the potential for clubs to earn large sums of $ no matter which format is chosen. Any club and/or persons who had actually stepped up would know this already. Which BTW it is ironic how there are some commenting on "tradition" and "format" who have not hosted the event. It is also interesting how with almost 100 votes cast in the poll 2/3rds favor a heat racing format of some kind. Regardless of that, the alternate National Champion heat race format is not intended to replace the "traditional" format but rather to give a club who might not have a site that can handle the timed part (primarily SAW) a chance to get involved. If it comes down to it, a National Champion heat race event is still better than no event. It's an option, nothing more, nothing less.......

Don:

Just my opinion, but I don't agree that "If it comes down to it, a National Champion heat race event is still better than no event..."

Like some have said, skipping a year is not a problem if no club comes to host the Nats. I would much prefer to skip a year and have a great Internats the next year using the format that will crown a deserving US#1.

Marty Davis

I wonder how the people who win at all the other heat racing only championships feel about such sentiments? Are they somehow inferior becuase they didn't have to go through time trials to win their title?

In addition, let's discuss the whole concept of time trials. What exactly do they prove that hasn't already been proven by heat racing? From the perspective of someone who hasn't been at an internats yet, and won't as long as they continue to be so excessively long, the only thing I can see that they do is allow those with the fastest boats a chance to make up for not doing as well during heat racing. I wonder who really is the better driver, someone who comes out on top after an exhaustive heat racing challenge, or someone who is behind at the end of heat racing, but then benefits from having the fastest boat during two very short runs that count for 1/2 of the total points? What other kind of racing skews their results so heavily in favor of the person with the fastest machine instead of the one who beats all competitors head to head? Does this format help or hurt attendance at the internats?

I'm not asking these questions to diminish the accomplishments of all those who have won the US#1 title in the past, I know it's a difficult accomplishment, but rather to understand why people would insist that no race would be better than a heat racing only format. This poll shows a clear desire for change. The difficulty of finding people to run the race in its current length and format shows a clear need to change. The attendance numbers when compared to other "national" events suggest that something is wrong.

 

[SayMikey]

Marty for 1998, 1999, 2004, 2005, and 2006 the clubs have all earned about 4k to 5k clear some of those clubs have made even more. It can be a very profitable way to earn lake site improvement funds for a club.
Please note I stated EARNED because the clubs do really work for the funds.

Actually let's set the record straight, in 1999 the IMPBA collected and kept all of the Internats $$. None of the people working the event saw any proceeds of any kind for their districts, we basically worked our asses off for over a week for free.

But Bill is correct about the potential for clubs to earn large sums of $ no matter which format is chosen. Any club and/or persons who had actually stepped up would know this already. Which BTW it is ironic how there are some commenting on "tradition" and "format" who have not hosted the event. It is also interesting how with almost 100 votes cast in the poll 2/3rds favor a heat racing format of some kind. Regardless of that, the alternate National Champion heat race format is not intended to replace the "traditional" format but rather to give a club who might not have a site that can handle the timed part (primarily SAW) a chance to get involved. If it comes down to it, a National Champion heat race event is still better than no event. It's an option, nothing more, nothing less.......

Don:

Just my opinion, but I don't agree that "If it comes down to it, a National Champion heat race event is still better than no event..."

Like some have said, skipping a year is not a problem if no club comes to host the Nats. I would much prefer to skip a year and have a great Internats the next year using the format that will crown a deserving US#1.

Marty Davis

I wonder how the people who win at all the other heat racing only championships feel about such sentiments? Are they somehow inferior becuase they didn't have to go through time trials to win their title?

In addition, let's discuss the whole concept of time trials. What exactly do they prove that hasn't already been proven by heat racing? From the perspective of someone who hasn't been at an internats yet, and won't as long as they continue to be so excessively long, the only thing I can see that they do is allow those with the fastest boats a chance to make up for not doing as well during heat racing. I wonder who really is the better driver, someone who comes out on top after an exhaustive heat racing challenge, or someone who is behind at the end of heat racing, but then benefits from having the fastest boat during two very short runs that count for 1/2 of the total points? What other kind of racing skews their results so heavily in favor of the person with the fastest machine instead of the one who beats all competitors head to head? Does this format help or hurt attendance at the internats?

I'm not asking these questions to diminish the accomplishments of all those who have won the US#1 title in the past, I know it's a difficult accomplishment, but rather to understand why people would insist that no race would be better than a heat racing only format. This poll shows a clear desire for change. The difficulty of finding people to run the race in its current length and format shows a clear need to change. The attendance numbers when compared to other "national" events suggest that something is wrong.

Looking at the POLL we have no clear format. Leave it be so what if we miss a year the next will be just fine.......

 

[Marty Davis]

Marty for 1998, 1999, 2004, 2005, and 2006 the clubs have all earned about 4k to 5k clear some of those clubs have made even more. It can be a very profitable way to earn lake site improvement funds for a club.
Please note I stated EARNED because the clubs do really work for the funds.

Actually let's set the record straight, in 1999 the IMPBA collected and kept all of the Internats $$. None of the people working the event saw any proceeds of any kind for their districts, we basically worked our asses off for over a week for free.

But Bill is correct about the potential for clubs to earn large sums of $ no matter which format is chosen. Any club and/or persons who had actually stepped up would know this already. Which BTW it is ironic how there are some commenting on "tradition" and "format" who have not hosted the event. It is also interesting how with almost 100 votes cast in the poll 2/3rds favor a heat racing format of some kind. Regardless of that, the alternate National Champion heat race format is not intended to replace the "traditional" format but rather to give a club who might not have a site that can handle the timed part (primarily SAW) a chance to get involved. If it comes down to it, a National Champion heat race event is still better than no event. It's an option, nothing more, nothing less.......

Don:

Just my opinion, but I don't agree that "If it comes down to it, a National Champion heat race event is still better than no event..."

Like some have said, skipping a year is not a problem if no club comes to host the Nats. I would much prefer to skip a year and have a great Internats the next year using the format that will crown a deserving US#1.

Marty Davis

I wonder how the people who win at all the other heat racing only championships feel about such sentiments? Are they somehow inferior becuase they didn't have to go through time trials to win their title?

In addition, let's discuss the whole concept of time trials. What exactly do they prove that hasn't already been proven by heat racing? From the perspective of someone who hasn't been at an internats yet, and won't as long as they continue to be so excessively long, the only thing I can see that they do is allow those with the fastest boats a chance to make up for not doing as well during heat racing. I wonder who really is the better driver, someone who comes out on top after an exhaustive heat racing challenge, or someone who is behind at the end of heat racing, but then benefits from having the fastest boat during two very short runs that count for 1/2 of the total points? What other kind of racing skews their results so heavily in favor of the person with the fastest machine instead of the one who beats all competitors head to head? Does this format help or hurt attendance at the internats?

I'm not asking these questions to diminish the accomplishments of all those who have won the US#1 title in the past, I know it's a difficult accomplishment, but rather to understand why people would insist that no race would be better than a heat racing only format. This poll shows a clear desire for change. The difficulty of finding people to run the race in its current length and format shows a clear need to change. The attendance numbers when compared to other "national" events suggest that something is wrong.

Chuck:

That is not correct. In order to get to the Trophy Trials, the competitor MUST have finished well in heat racing. You can not make up for poor heat racing in Trophy Trials. The top finishing people (many times 5 or 6) in heat racing go to the trophy trials (SAW and Timed Oval) to go "head to head".

In MANY cases you might not have even raced some of the people who finished in the top 5 or 6 in heat racing. Now, in the trophy trials, you will get to compete against all of them.

Marty Davis

 

[piper_chuck]

Marty for 1998, 1999, 2004, 2005, and 2006 the clubs have all earned about 4k to 5k clear some of those clubs have made even more. It can be a very profitable way to earn lake site improvement funds for a club.
Please note I stated EARNED because the clubs do really work for the funds.

Actually let's set the record straight, in 1999 the IMPBA collected and kept all of the Internats $. None of the people working the event saw any proceeds of any kind for their districts, we basically worked our asses off for over a week for free.

But Bill is correct about the potential for clubs to earn large sums of $ no matter which format is chosen. Any club and/or persons who had actually stepped up would know this already. Which BTW it is ironic how there are some commenting on "tradition" and "format" who have not hosted the event. It is also interesting how with almost 100 votes cast in the poll 2/3rds favor a heat racing format of some kind. Regardless of that, the alternate National Champion heat race format is not intended to replace the "traditional" format but rather to give a club who might not have a site that can handle the timed part (primarily SAW) a chance to get involved. If it comes down to it, a National Champion heat race event is still better than no event. It's an option, nothing more, nothing less.......

Don:

Just my opinion, but I don't agree that "If it comes down to it, a National Champion heat race event is still better than no event..."

Like some have said, skipping a year is not a problem if no club comes to host the Nats. I would much prefer to skip a year and have a great Internats the next year using the format that will crown a deserving US#1.

Marty Davis

I wonder how the people who win at all the other heat racing only championships feel about such sentiments? Are they somehow inferior becuase they didn't have to go through time trials to win their title?

In addition, let's discuss the whole concept of time trials. What exactly do they prove that hasn't already been proven by heat racing? From the perspective of someone who hasn't been at an internats yet, and won't as long as they continue to be so excessively long, the only thing I can see that they do is allow those with the fastest boats a chance to make up for not doing as well during heat racing. I wonder who really is the better driver, someone who comes out on top after an exhaustive heat racing challenge, or someone who is behind at the end of heat racing, but then benefits from having the fastest boat during two very short runs that count for 1/2 of the total points? What other kind of racing skews their results so heavily in favor of the person with the fastest machine instead of the one who beats all competitors head to head? Does this format help or hurt attendance at the internats?

I'm not asking these questions to diminish the accomplishments of all those who have won the US#1 title in the past, I know it's a difficult accomplishment, but rather to understand why people would insist that no race would be better than a heat racing only format. This poll shows a clear desire for change. The difficulty of finding people to run the race in its current length and format shows a clear need to change. The attendance numbers when compared to other "national" events suggest that something is wrong.

Looking at the POLL we have no clear format. Leave it be so what if we miss a year the next will be just fine.......

What is unclear about 67% favoring heat racing only? It seems the format preference is clear, there's just a question of what boats should attend.

 

[Don Ferrette]

That's funny, head to head in trophy trials. I don't think so, it's you against the clock, period. Head to head would be the top 6 competing against each other in 3 rounds of BALLS TO THE WALL heat racing. How many times have you seen the top finisher in heat racing screw up in trophy trials? Be honest...................

Bottom line is there is "luck" involved no matter which format you choose.

 

[piper_chuck]

Marty for 1998, 1999, 2004, 2005, and 2006 the clubs have all earned about 4k to 5k clear some of those clubs have made even more. It can be a very profitable way to earn lake site improvement funds for a club.
Please note I stated EARNED because the clubs do really work for the funds.

Actually let's set the record straight, in 1999 the IMPBA collected and kept all of the Internats $. None of the people working the event saw any proceeds of any kind for their districts, we basically worked our asses off for over a week for free.

But Bill is correct about the potential for clubs to earn large sums of $ no matter which format is chosen. Any club and/or persons who had actually stepped up would know this already. Which BTW it is ironic how there are some commenting on "tradition" and "format" who have not hosted the event. It is also interesting how with almost 100 votes cast in the poll 2/3rds favor a heat racing format of some kind. Regardless of that, the alternate National Champion heat race format is not intended to replace the "traditional" format but rather to give a club who might not have a site that can handle the timed part (primarily SAW) a chance to get involved. If it comes down to it, a National Champion heat race event is still better than no event. It's an option, nothing more, nothing less.......

Don:

Just my opinion, but I don't agree that "If it comes down to it, a National Champion heat race event is still better than no event..."

Like some have said, skipping a year is not a problem if no club comes to host the Nats. I would much prefer to skip a year and have a great Internats the next year using the format that will crown a deserving US#1.

Marty Davis

I wonder how the people who win at all the other heat racing only championships feel about such sentiments? Are they somehow inferior becuase they didn't have to go through time trials to win their title?

In addition, let's discuss the whole concept of time trials. What exactly do they prove that hasn't already been proven by heat racing? From the perspective of someone who hasn't been at an internats yet, and won't as long as they continue to be so excessively long, the only thing I can see that they do is allow those with the fastest boats a chance to make up for not doing as well during heat racing. I wonder who really is the better driver, someone who comes out on top after an exhaustive heat racing challenge, or someone who is behind at the end of heat racing, but then benefits from having the fastest boat during two very short runs that count for 1/2 of the total points? What other kind of racing skews their results so heavily in favor of the person with the fastest machine instead of the one who beats all competitors head to head? Does this format help or hurt attendance at the internats?

I'm not asking these questions to diminish the accomplishments of all those who have won the US#1 title in the past, I know it's a difficult accomplishment, but rather to understand why people would insist that no race would be better than a heat racing only format. This poll shows a clear desire for change. The difficulty of finding people to run the race in its current length and format shows a clear need to change. The attendance numbers when compared to other "national" events suggest that something is wrong.

Chuck:

That is not correct. In order to get to the Trophy Trials, the competitor MUST have finished well in heat racing. You can not make up for poor heat racing in Trophy Trials. The top finishing people (many times 5 or 6) in heat racing go to the trophy trials (SAW and Timed Oval) to go "head to head".

In MANY cases you might not have even raced some of the people who finished in the top 5 or 6 in heat racing. Now, in the trophy trials, you will get to compete against all of them.

Marty Davis

Marty

First, what was "not correct" about what I said? I said nothing about "poor heat racing". I said the time trials gives a person "a chance to make up for not doing as well during heat racing".

Moving on, are you familiar with the alternate race format for the internats? I'm asking because your second paragraph makes it sound like someone could somehow win without going head to head with the other top finishing drivers. Since the heat racing format puts the top 6 finishers from the qualifying round into the championship round, there's no way what you suggest could happen. This heat racing format figures out who is the best, the top 6 qualifiers after four rounds, and then puts them against each other for 3 more rounds to determine the "best of the best".

 

[tnrcboatracer]

Would this heat racing format be any quicker? It may shave 1 day off of the overall total. To run as many classes as we have is what takes so much time. I have been part of hosting 2 internats in Huntsville, and our goal was 7 minutes heat to heat, max was 8.5~9 minutes. The quantity of boats is why I can't see putting all the gas and FE folks together. I personally have no interest in Gas or electric boats, so adding them in with the nitro folks would not interest me. If I wanted to do gas boats, I'd go to the gas internats, the same with FE. I can agree with an all heat race national championships separate from US1, but it would have to be a seeding system as proposed. I would also prefer 5 rounds of qualifiers, followed by 3 rounds of the top 8 competitors.

I also think that US1 is something special, and should not be changed from the current format.

 

[Marty Davis]

Marty for 1998, 1999, 2004, 2005, and 2006 the clubs have all earned about 4k to 5k clear some of those clubs have made even more. It can be a very profitable way to earn lake site improvement funds for a club.
Please note I stated EARNED because the clubs do really work for the funds.

Actually let's set the record straight, in 1999 the IMPBA collected and kept all of the Internats $. None of the people working the event saw any proceeds of any kind for their districts, we basically worked our asses off for over a week for free.

But Bill is correct about the potential for clubs to earn large sums of $ no matter which format is chosen. Any club and/or persons who had actually stepped up would know this already. Which BTW it is ironic how there are some commenting on "tradition" and "format" who have not hosted the event. It is also interesting how with almost 100 votes cast in the poll 2/3rds favor a heat racing format of some kind. Regardless of that, the alternate National Champion heat race format is not intended to replace the "traditional" format but rather to give a club who might not have a site that can handle the timed part (primarily SAW) a chance to get involved. If it comes down to it, a National Champion heat race event is still better than no event. It's an option, nothing more, nothing less.......

Don:

Just my opinion, but I don't agree that "If it comes down to it, a National Champion heat race event is still better than no event..."

Like some have said, skipping a year is not a problem if no club comes to host the Nats. I would much prefer to skip a year and have a great Internats the next year using the format that will crown a deserving US#1.

Marty Davis

I wonder how the people who win at all the other heat racing only championships feel about such sentiments? Are they somehow inferior becuase they didn't have to go through time trials to win their title?

In addition, let's discuss the whole concept of time trials. What exactly do they prove that hasn't already been proven by heat racing? From the perspective of someone who hasn't been at an internats yet, and won't as long as they continue to be so excessively long, the only thing I can see that they do is allow those with the fastest boats a chance to make up for not doing as well during heat racing. I wonder who really is the better driver, someone who comes out on top after an exhaustive heat racing challenge, or someone who is behind at the end of heat racing, but then benefits from having the fastest boat during two very short runs that count for 1/2 of the total points? What other kind of racing skews their results so heavily in favor of the person with the fastest machine instead of the one who beats all competitors head to head? Does this format help or hurt attendance at the internats?

I'm not asking these questions to diminish the accomplishments of all those who have won the US#1 title in the past, I know it's a difficult accomplishment, but rather to understand why people would insist that no race would be better than a heat racing only format. This poll shows a clear desire for change. The difficulty of finding people to run the race in its current length and format shows a clear need to change. The attendance numbers when compared to other "national" events suggest that something is wrong.

Chuck:

That is not correct. In order to get to the Trophy Trials, the competitor MUST have finished well in heat racing. You can not make up for poor heat racing in Trophy Trials. The top finishing people (many times 5 or 6) in heat racing go to the trophy trials (SAW and Timed Oval) to go "head to head".

In MANY cases you might not have even raced some of the people who finished in the top 5 or 6 in heat racing. Now, in the trophy trials, you will get to compete against all of them.

Marty Davis

Marty

First, what was "not correct" about what I said? I said nothing about "poor heat racing". I said the time trials gives a person "a chance to make up for not doing as well during heat racing".

Moving on, are you familiar with the alternate race format for the internats? I'm asking because your second paragraph makes it sound like someone could somehow win without going head to head with the other top finishing drivers. Since the heat racing format puts the top 6 finishers from the qualifying round into the championship round, there's no way what you suggest could happen. This heat racing format figures out who is the best, the top 6 qualifiers after four rounds, and then puts them against each other for 3 more rounds to determine the "best of the best".

Chuck:

I would have absolutely no problem with that format. It is nearly the same as what is used in car racing and except that timing on the oval was used in the Masters Format, it is a GREAT way to have people decide US#1.

No problem whatsoever with that format....

My preference is the old format, but this new format would produce a worthy champion.

Marty Davis

 

[Marty Davis]

Marty for 1998, 1999, 2004, 2005, and 2006 the clubs have all earned about 4k to 5k clear some of those clubs have made even more. It can be a very profitable way to earn lake site improvement funds for a club.
Please note I stated EARNED because the clubs do really work for the funds.

Actually let's set the record straight, in 1999 the IMPBA collected and kept all of the Internats $. None of the people working the event saw any proceeds of any kind for their districts, we basically worked our asses off for over a week for free.

But Bill is correct about the potential for clubs to earn large sums of $ no matter which format is chosen. Any club and/or persons who had actually stepped up would know this already. Which BTW it is ironic how there are some commenting on "tradition" and "format" who have not hosted the event. It is also interesting how with almost 100 votes cast in the poll 2/3rds favor a heat racing format of some kind. Regardless of that, the alternate National Champion heat race format is not intended to replace the "traditional" format but rather to give a club who might not have a site that can handle the timed part (primarily SAW) a chance to get involved. If it comes down to it, a National Champion heat race event is still better than no event. It's an option, nothing more, nothing less.......

Don:

Just my opinion, but I don't agree that "If it comes down to it, a National Champion heat race event is still better than no event..."

Like some have said, skipping a year is not a problem if no club comes to host the Nats. I would much prefer to skip a year and have a great Internats the next year using the format that will crown a deserving US#1.

Marty Davis

I wonder how the people who win at all the other heat racing only championships feel about such sentiments? Are they somehow inferior becuase they didn't have to go through time trials to win their title?

In addition, let's discuss the whole concept of time trials. What exactly do they prove that hasn't already been proven by heat racing? From the perspective of someone who hasn't been at an internats yet, and won't as long as they continue to be so excessively long, the only thing I can see that they do is allow those with the fastest boats a chance to make up for not doing as well during heat racing. I wonder who really is the better driver, someone who comes out on top after an exhaustive heat racing challenge, or someone who is behind at the end of heat racing, but then benefits from having the fastest boat during two very short runs that count for 1/2 of the total points? What other kind of racing skews their results so heavily in favor of the person with the fastest machine instead of the one who beats all competitors head to head? Does this format help or hurt attendance at the internats?

I'm not asking these questions to diminish the accomplishments of all those who have won the US#1 title in the past, I know it's a difficult accomplishment, but rather to understand why people would insist that no race would be better than a heat racing only format. This poll shows a clear desire for change. The difficulty of finding people to run the race in its current length and format shows a clear need to change. The attendance numbers when compared to other "national" events suggest that something is wrong.

Chuck:

That is not correct. In order to get to the Trophy Trials, the competitor MUST have finished well in heat racing. You can not make up for poor heat racing in Trophy Trials. The top finishing people (many times 5 or 6) in heat racing go to the trophy trials (SAW and Timed Oval) to go "head to head".

In MANY cases you might not have even raced some of the people who finished in the top 5 or 6 in heat racing. Now, in the trophy trials, you will get to compete against all of them.

Marty Davis

Marty

First, what was "not correct" about what I said? I said nothing about "poor heat racing". I said the time trials gives a person "a chance to make up for not doing as well during heat racing".

Moving on, are you familiar with the alternate race format for the internats? I'm asking because your second paragraph makes it sound like someone could somehow win without going head to head with the other top finishing drivers. Since the heat racing format puts the top 6 finishers from the qualifying round into the championship round, there's no way what you suggest could happen. This heat racing format figures out who is the best, the top 6 qualifiers after four rounds, and then puts them against each other for 3 more rounds to determine the "best of the best".

Chuck:

I would have absolutely no problem with that format. It is nearly the same as what is used in car racing and except that timing on the oval was used in the Masters Format, it is a GREAT way to have people decide US#1.

No problem whatsoever with that format....

My preference is the old format, but this new format would produce a worthy champion.

Marty Davis

 

[piper_chuck]

Marty for 1998, 1999, 2004, 2005, and 2006 the clubs have all earned about 4k to 5k clear some of those clubs have made even more. It can be a very profitable way to earn lake site improvement funds for a club.
Please note I stated EARNED because the clubs do really work for the funds.

Actually let's set the record straight, in 1999 the IMPBA collected and kept all of the Internats $. None of the people working the event saw any proceeds of any kind for their districts, we basically worked our asses off for over a week for free.

But Bill is correct about the potential for clubs to earn large sums of $ no matter which format is chosen. Any club and/or persons who had actually stepped up would know this already. Which BTW it is ironic how there are some commenting on "tradition" and "format" who have not hosted the event. It is also interesting how with almost 100 votes cast in the poll 2/3rds favor a heat racing format of some kind. Regardless of that, the alternate National Champion heat race format is not intended to replace the "traditional" format but rather to give a club who might not have a site that can handle the timed part (primarily SAW) a chance to get involved. If it comes down to it, a National Champion heat race event is still better than no event. It's an option, nothing more, nothing less.......

Don:

Just my opinion, but I don't agree that "If it comes down to it, a National Champion heat race event is still better than no event..."

Like some have said, skipping a year is not a problem if no club comes to host the Nats. I would much prefer to skip a year and have a great Internats the next year using the format that will crown a deserving US#1.

Marty Davis

I wonder how the people who win at all the other heat racing only championships feel about such sentiments? Are they somehow inferior becuase they didn't have to go through time trials to win their title?

In addition, let's discuss the whole concept of time trials. What exactly do they prove that hasn't already been proven by heat racing? From the perspective of someone who hasn't been at an internats yet, and won't as long as they continue to be so excessively long, the only thing I can see that they do is allow those with the fastest boats a chance to make up for not doing as well during heat racing. I wonder who really is the better driver, someone who comes out on top after an exhaustive heat racing challenge, or someone who is behind at the end of heat racing, but then benefits from having the fastest boat during two very short runs that count for 1/2 of the total points? What other kind of racing skews their results so heavily in favor of the person with the fastest machine instead of the one who beats all competitors head to head? Does this format help or hurt attendance at the internats?

I'm not asking these questions to diminish the accomplishments of all those who have won the US#1 title in the past, I know it's a difficult accomplishment, but rather to understand why people would insist that no race would be better than a heat racing only format. This poll shows a clear desire for change. The difficulty of finding people to run the race in its current length and format shows a clear need to change. The attendance numbers when compared to other "national" events suggest that something is wrong.

Chuck:

That is not correct. In order to get to the Trophy Trials, the competitor MUST have finished well in heat racing. You can not make up for poor heat racing in Trophy Trials. The top finishing people (many times 5 or 6) in heat racing go to the trophy trials (SAW and Timed Oval) to go "head to head".

In MANY cases you might not have even raced some of the people who finished in the top 5 or 6 in heat racing. Now, in the trophy trials, you will get to compete against all of them.

Marty Davis

Marty

First, what was "not correct" about what I said? I said nothing about "poor heat racing". I said the time trials gives a person "a chance to make up for not doing as well during heat racing".

Moving on, are you familiar with the alternate race format for the internats? I'm asking because your second paragraph makes it sound like someone could somehow win without going head to head with the other top finishing drivers. Since the heat racing format puts the top 6 finishers from the qualifying round into the championship round, there's no way what you suggest could happen. This heat racing format figures out who is the best, the top 6 qualifiers after four rounds, and then puts them against each other for 3 more rounds to determine the "best of the best".

Chuck:

I would have absolutely no problem with that format. It is nearly the same as what is used in car racing and except that timing on the oval was used in the Masters Format, it is a GREAT way to have people decide US#1.

No problem whatsoever with that format....

Marty Davis

Cool

 

[Don Ferrette]

Marty

First, what was "not correct" about what I said? I said nothing about "poor heat racing". I said the time trials gives a person "a chance to make up for not doing as well during heat racing".

Moving on, are you familiar with the alternate race format for the internats? I'm asking because your second paragraph makes it sound like someone could somehow win without going head to head with the other top finishing drivers. Since the heat racing format puts the top 6 finishers from the qualifying round into the championship round, there's no way what you suggest could happen. This heat racing format figures out who is the best, the top 6 qualifiers after four rounds, and then puts them against each other for 3 more rounds to determine the "best of the best".

Chuck:

I would have absolutely no problem with that format. It is nearly the same as what is used in car racing and except that timing on the oval was used in the Masters Format, it is a GREAT way to have people decide US#1.

No problem whatsoever with that format....

Marty Davis

Huh?? Seven pages back & forth about not wanting to use the optional National Champion heat race format & now you're agreeing with it? Does everyone know how the National Champion format option actually works? Here it is one more time- MINIMUM of 4 qualifying rounds (yes you could do 5 if you want to) & then the top 6 go head to head in 3 rounds of "best of the best" heat racing to determine the Nation Champion. First place overall in qualifying rounds starts with 400 points in Championship rounds, second place overall starts with 300 points, etc, etc. You would have to kick ass for at least 7 rounds to win it all, no cake walk there. And BTW- I got an Excel spread sheet sent to me last night that clearly showed how that all of the nitro classes in this format could easily be run in 4 days, I'll see if he can post it here.

 

[bzubee]

Chuck the only thing is with the alternate National format that Don developed is it won't really save much time the length will still be pretty close to the same as the 2 Internats formats we have. Only way to shorten it is to limit entries per person.

 

[piper_chuck]

Would this heat racing format be any quicker? It may shave 1 day off of the overall total. To run as many classes as we have is what takes so much time. I have been part of hosting 2 internats in Huntsville, and our goal was 7 minutes heat to heat, max was 8.5~9 minutes.

Good question. It does seem like 12 or so timings (6 boats running straight and oval) would take more time than 3 heats of 6 boats. Multiply the savings times the number of US#1 classes and there would be quite a bit of time saved. Not having to deal with timing, surveying the course, etc would also simplify the setup work the club needs to do.

And more food for thought, which is a better use of people's time, the pond and equipment, and more interesting for the spectators, 6-8 boats on the water going head to head, or hundreds of people sitting on their butts watching one driver race against the clock?

The quantity of boats is why I can't see putting all the gas and FE folks together. I personally have no interest in Gas or electric boats, so adding them in with the nitro folks would not interest me. If I wanted to do gas boats, I'd go to the gas internats, the same with FE. I can agree with an all heat race national championships separate from US1, but it would have to be a seeding system as proposed. I would also prefer 5 rounds of qualifiers, followed by 3 rounds of the top 8 competitors.

It probably would be overwhelming to try to cover all classes (nitro, gas, and FE) at one event.
The alternate format that's already on the books is 4 qualifying rounds followed by 3 championship rounds for the to 6 boats. I don't know why 6 was chosen instead of 8, but I suspect it has something to do with pond size, boat size, and boat speed. Also, as you increase the number of boats out there, you significantly increase the odds that one person could be taken out by someone else's mistake.

I also think that US1 is something special, and should not be changed from the current format.

I think I'll pass on this part of the discussion. I'd just like to see a shorter internats, so I could attend.

 

[piper_chuck]

Chuck the only thing is with the alternate National format that Don developed is it won't really save much time the length will still be pretty close to the same as the 2 Internats formats we have. Only way to shorten it is to limit entries per person.

Bill, I'm confused about this. Let's look at the times. Assume there is a 12 boat class, meaning there would be two heats per round for the qualifiers. The rules for the US#1 format say 5 heats need to be run, so that means a total of 10 heats per class. Let's also assume averages of 9 minutes per heat.

Further, let's assume 6 minutes per timing, which includes some for pit, some for timing, plus occasional dead boats. If this is high or low, let me know and I'll revise my numbers. Timing 6 boats in the straight and oval would mean 12 timings.

The new format says 4 heats which means a total of 8 heats for the qualifying round followed by 3 championship heats. This gives a total of 11 heats.

Current format:

10 heats x 9 minutes per heat = 90 minutes

12 timings x 6 minutes per timing = 72 minutes

Total time is 162 minutes, or a bit less than 3 hours

[/b]Heat only format:

11 heats x 9 minutes = 99 minutes

 

Time saved = 63 minutes per class

 

Multiply this by the number of US#1 classes and it's easy to see that it could save a day.

 

I ran these estimates against this year's internats and found that it could save around 9 hours. Further, if you assumed an 8 hour racing day, the numbers say the US#1 classes could be covered in less than 3.5 days. Obviously, time needs to be added in case there are delays due to weather, equipment problems, breaks for lunch, etc, but the bottom line is a heat racing format would definitely save time.

 

[user 115]

Chuck the only thing is with the alternate National format that Don developed is it won't really save much time the length will still be pretty close to the same as the 2 Internats formats we have. Only way to shorten it is to limit entries per person.

I'm not sure the intent of the alternate format is to shorten the overall length of days of the internats, rather shorten the number of days a competitor would need to attend.. That's what I think is so great with NAMBA's format. If I only wanted to race 20 hydro and be crowned champion, I would only need to attend 1-2 days, not the whole week like IMPBA's.

Perhaps the alternate will shorten the overall length but I think to keep attendance up will require shortening the number of days a racer needs to be there.

Charley

 

[Scott Norris]

Chuck the only thing is with the alternate National format that Don developed is it won't really save much time the length will still be pretty close to the same as the 2 Internats formats we have. Only way to shorten it is to limit entries per person.

I'm not sure the intent of the alternate format is to shorten the overall length of days of the internats, rather shorten the number of days a competitor would need to attend.. That's what I think is so great with NAMBA's format. If I only wanted to race 20 hydro and be crowned champion, I would only need to attend 1-2 days, not the whole week like IMPBA's.

Perhaps the alternate will shorten the overall length but I think to keep attendance up will require shortening the number of days a racer needs to be there.

Charley

Ding Ding Ding Ding Ding!!!!! We Have a Winner!!!!!

 

[SayMikey]

Chuck the only thing is with the alternate National format that Don developed is it won't really save much time the length will still be pretty close to the same as the 2 Internats formats we have. Only way to shorten it is to limit entries per person.

I'm not sure the intent of the alternate format is to shorten the overall length of days of the internats, rather shorten the number of days a competitor would need to attend.. That's what I think is so great with NAMBA's format. If I only wanted to race 20 hydro and be crowned champion, I would only need to attend 1-2 days, not the whole week like IMPBA's.

Perhaps the alternate will shorten the overall length but I think to keep attendance up will require shortening the number of days a racer needs to be there.

Charley

Ok say we put on the heat racing format,what days and how many will it take? If you start it saturday it gets done tursday if all goes right,start it on any day and you will have to limit open water or guys will show up a month early! Putting all classes in fe,gas and nitro and you will be there at least 8 days. I think before we try to throw them all together we should try nitro first, and run 4 rounds plus 4 rounds for any special classes and no more rounds for special classes that way time can be saved in case of foul weather. As far as gas goes those guys have the next 5 years covered,maybe if it works we can melt them together in the future...my 2 cents