Fuel mixing question

[Ken Retallick]

http://www.flitelinesolutions.com/castor_vs_synthetic.html

this will help Don

Dark ages? living in a steam powered state we actually enjoy it

 

[Don Ferrette]

Interesting read of a 23 year old article (April 1983), best part is even way back then he still preferred synthetics.

I on the other hand, being just a dumb 'ol model boater & not a "lubrication engineer", did a simple test about 8 years ago of heating the underside of a small iron skillet with a little castor based oil on one side, a little synthetic on the other & watched the results (nothing original here, I stole the idea from the old Mobil 1 TV commercial). Also another simple test you can do is add castor to a high nitro fuel blend & watch what happens. In anything over roughly 40% the castor will begin to seperate, do this with some 60% & you can watch it as it happens, turning into little blobs, castor does not mix well with high nitro. The airplane guys don't run anywhere near the nitro content as us so looking at what they do is kinda like comparing apples & oranges. ALOT has changed in the last 20+ years in the world of synthetic oils and for me I let my own results speak for themselves. My motors run better, my boats run faster, my bearings last longer & that nice bump at TDC seems to be around alot longer. Like I said, to each his own ...........

Steam powered state ........ now that's funny no matter what! :lol:

 

[waltr]

Cool Blue all the way!

Varnish is for wood,not for my motors.

As a matter of fact,they really don't even use Varnish for wood anymore either.

It's been replaced by synthetics too.

Castor is old outdated technology.

I know,Castor does do the job and been doing it for many years,

but a horse can get you to work in the mornin also,

I won't use one of those either.

Hm...... Guess I need to apologize to tnrcboatracer.

Seems we also hi-jacked your thread about LB 625.

 

[lohring]

We considered the castor essential since we siezed three of the RINGED factory stock pistons. (None of the lapped pistons made it past low power breakins despite tons of the recommended castor/synthetic oil in the gas.) Our final solution that has not been dyno tested is to increase the piston clearance in the ring area by about .004 and in the skirt area by .0005 inch. Also one of the sleeves had an out of round area above the exhaust port that decreased the clearance there to nearly zero.

I believe the humps in the power curve are caused by poor metering by the carb. We smoothed them considerably by experimenting with the high and low needle settings, but Mike still sees and hears lean spots as the engine comes up through the power band.

Inertial dyno runs consist of spinning a wheel from around 10,000 rpm to the maximum rpm at wide open throttle. It takes about 5 seconds. The software then computes the torque and power from the change in rpm over time. This is exactly the way we use the engine in a straight line run with the exception that we hold the engine at full power and rpm for a few seconds through the traps. The tests are relatively quick and easy on the engine. Even so, mechanical problems show up. Because there is considerable data scatter in a single run, I've been averaging two or three runs together to get smoother data. That way you can tell if small changes (less than 5% change in power) matter. We seem to have more problem with high power engines. The Quickdraws were especially bad. Vibration and electrical noise might be problems and rubber isolators on the magnetic rpm pickup seem to help. It is easy to make 40 runs in a day of testing.

Lohring Miller

 

[oldlugs]

While I'm neither a chemist nor an environmentalist, isn't the synthetic oil considered more of an environmental threat than castor? While major advances have been made in synthetic lubricants, I wonder if their environmental impact was ever a consideration... Even at a 10% oil mixture, a couple gallons of oil gets dumped into your favorite pond on every race weekend... Food for thought.

 

[Don Ferrette]

While I'm neither a chemist nor an environmentalist, isn't the synthetic oil considered more of an environmental threat than castor? While major advances have been made in synthetic lubricants, I wonder if their environmental impact was ever a consideration... Even at a 10% oil mixture, a couple gallons of oil gets dumped into your favorite pond on every race weekend... Food for thought.

Not even close. You are not running on pure castor but merely a small percentage as an additive. Besides you're not "dumping" it into the water anyways. Conventional petroleum based 2 stroke oils are the real issue these days. Why do you think all the two stroke equipment manufacturers are switching to synthetics? Because it's the only way they can meet the next federal small engine emissions requirements that take effect in I believe 2008. Go into a Lowe's or Home Depot & try to buy some non synthetic 2 two stroke oil for your weedeater & you'll see what I mean....... :blink:

 

[tnrcboatracer]

No problem Walt. It is interesting to watch.

As I recall, is not LB625 not really an oil at all but a synthetic ester. But it is a darn good lubricant. I was wondering about blending it with something to both improve the performace of the lube, and to stretch it out longer. Now it looks like I will try a blend of the Morgan Kart Blue synthetic and LB625 with perhaps an additional friction modifier. Can I buy the Morgan oils direct?

On another note, has anyone tried adding some of the miracle lubes to our fuel; Prolong, Z-max, XR1, etc? I was thinking along the lines of 0.2-0.5%

 

[Don Ferrette]

No problem Walt. It is interesting to watch.

As I recall, is not LB625 not really an oil at all but a synthetic ester. But it is a darn good lubricant. I was wondering about blending it with something to both improve the performace of the lube, and to stretch it out longer. Now it looks like I will try a blend of the Morgan Kart Blue synthetic and LB625 with perhaps an additional friction modifier. Can I buy the Morgan oils direct?

On another note, has anyone tried adding some of the miracle lubes to our fuel; Prolong, Z-max, XR1, etc? I was thinking along the lines of 0.2-0.5%

Hey Jon, ditto on the thread hijack, sorry. You can buy right from Morgan's but you need to call them direct- 334-347-3525

 

[oldlugs]

While I'm neither a chemist nor an environmentalist, isn't the synthetic oil considered more of an environmental threat than castor? While major advances have been made in synthetic lubricants, I wonder if their environmental impact was ever a consideration... Even at a 10% oil mixture, a couple gallons of oil gets dumped into your favorite pond on every race weekend... Food for thought.

Not even close. You are not running on pure castor but merely a small percentage as an additive. Besides you're not "dumping" it into the water anyways. Conventional petroleum based 2 stroke oils are the real issue these days. Why do you think all the two stroke equipment manufacturers are switching to synthetics? Because it's the only way they can meet the next federal small engine emissions requirements that take effect in I believe 2008. Go into a Lowe's or Home Depot & try to buy some non synthetic 2 two stroke oil for your weedeater & you'll see what I mean....... :blink:

Don, I think you're now comparing "conventional" petroleum-based oil to synthetics... I believe that castor is not a conventional petroleum-based oil.

Also, the unburned oil particles are airborn before dropping into your pond and polluting, and not being directly dumped... What's the difference?

At a 10% +or- oil mixture, the oil (unburned) multiplied by 10 gallons of fuel used on a typical race weekend (may be way off here), should = at least a gallon of oil in the water...every race weekend. (I love nitro boats, but still a convincing argument in favor of F/E...)

The castor is not a conventional petroleum-based 2 stroke oil, but instead pressed from the castor bean. (BTW - supposedly the castor oil does not contain the ricin toxin, which is concentrated as a water-soluable protein.)

What's the synthetic oil refined from...? Conventional petroleum oils...?

Just a guess, but I think the switch from conventional to synthetic for weedwacker use may be because the synthetic burns at the higher temp, and because less is burned, fewer hydrocarbons released. Just a guess.

EDIT- Hey guys, sorry for the thread hijack too, but the comparison of synth/castor got me thinking about benefits/drawbacks of each.

Duane

 

[Don Ferrette]

While I'm neither a chemist nor an environmentalist, isn't the synthetic oil considered more of an environmental threat than castor? While major advances have been made in synthetic lubricants, I wonder if their environmental impact was ever a consideration... Even at a 10% oil mixture, a couple gallons of oil gets dumped into your favorite pond on every race weekend... Food for thought.

Not even close. You are not running on pure castor but merely a small percentage as an additive. Besides you're not "dumping" it into the water anyways. Conventional petroleum based 2 stroke oils are the real issue these days. Why do you think all the two stroke equipment manufacturers are switching to synthetics? Because it's the only way they can meet the next federal small engine emissions requirements that take effect in I believe 2008. Go into a Lowe's or Home Depot & try to buy some non synthetic 2 two stroke oil for your weedeater & you'll see what I mean....... :blink:

Don, I think you're now comparing "conventional" petroleum-based oil to synthetics... I believe that castor is not a conventional petroleum-based oil.

Also, the unburned oil particles are airborn before dropping into your pond and polluting, and not being directly dumped... What's the difference?

At a 10% +or- oil mixture, the oil (unburned) multiplied by 10 gallons of fuel used on a typical race weekend (may be way off here), should = at least a gallon of oil in the water...every race weekend. (I love nitro boats, but still a convincing argument in favor of F/E...)

The castor is not a conventional petroleum-based 2 stroke oil, but instead pressed from the castor bean. (BTW - supposedly the castor oil does not contain the ricin toxin, which is concentrated as a water-soluable protein.)

What's the synthetic oil refined from...? Conventional petroleum oils...?

Just a guess, but I think the switch from conventional to synthetic for weedwacker use may be because the synthetic burns at the higher temp, and because less is burned, fewer hydrocarbons released. Just a guess.

Sorry I'm not being clear, castor is a very common additive, not a 100% lubricant, the pecentage of castor vs. synthetic is not the same so comparing the 2 on a "pollutant" level is not even. Regardless the "particles" don't all settle back to the water, actually very few do, they remain airborne. If that were the case we wouldn't have currently 6 states & many localities enacting strong rules or even attempting to outlaw 2 stroke small engines because of the excessive airborne emissions (do a Google search on 2 cycle small gasoline engine pollution). I only brought up the part about conventional 2 stroke oils to show the big push over to synthetics.

 

[Terry Keeley]

We considered the castor essential since we siezed three of the RINGED factory stock pistons. (None of the lapped pistons made it past low power breakins despite tons of the recommended castor/synthetic oil in the gas.) Our final solution that has not been dyno tested is to increase the piston clearance in the ring area by about .004 and in the skirt area by .0005 inch. Also one of the sleeves had an out of round area above the exhaust port that decreased the clearance there to nearly zero.

I believe the humps in the power curve are caused by poor metering by the carb. We smoothed them considerably by experimenting with the high and low needle settings, but Mike still sees and hears lean spots as the engine comes up through the power band.

Inertial dyno runs consist of spinning a wheel from around 10,000 rpm to the maximum rpm at wide open throttle. It takes about 5 seconds. The software then computes the torque and power from the change in rpm over time. This is exactly the way we use the engine in a straight line run with the exception that we hold the engine at full power and rpm for a few seconds through the traps. The tests are relatively quick and easy on the engine. Even so, mechanical problems show up. Because there is considerable data scatter in a single run, I've been averaging two or three runs together to get smoother data. That way you can tell if small changes (less than 5% change in power) matter. We seem to have more problem with high power engines. The Quickdraws were especially bad. Vibration and electrical noise might be problems and rubber isolators on the magnetic rpm pickup seem to help. It is easy to make 40 runs in a day of testing.

Lohring Miller

Very interesting stuff Lohring! Just one more question if you don't mind, what's that "data scatter" all about? :blink:

 

[dave roach]

You guys can run that synthetic morgan's oil and have fun replacing your bearings every weekend.It breaks down under the pressure's that we put on those little engines.That sh't isn't worth the lead and power to blow it up.I have been down this road with that sh;t when I was racing karts and have to rebuild the engines after a weekend at 250.00 -300.00 a pop.Swicth to Klotz and had no more problems.

That's my .002 cents

Dave Roach

 

[Don Ferrette]

You guys can run that synthetic morgan's oil and have fun replacing your bearings every weekend.It breaks down under the pressure's that we put on those little engines.That sh't isn't worth the lead and power to blow it up.I have been down this road with that sh;t when I was racing karts and have to rebuild the engines after a weekend at 250.00 -300.00 a pop.Swicth to Klotz and had no more problems.

That's my .002 cents

Dave Roach

Gee Dave guess you missed the posts from those of us having BETTER bearing life than with previous oils. Obviously some of us must be doing something magically different than others.

 

[El Zorro]

Well, as usual, what starts out as a simple question ends up in a bit of confusion maybe for Jon. Maybe "80's technology" ( really, Don......wait until you need another turn fin! ) is "old school", but it works. Castor oil was pretty much the ONLY oil used in model fuel until the 1960's. All of the fuel made by FOX Manufacturing still contains ONLY castor oil......... as they have for more than 40 some years. FOX Super fuel has 29% castor oil in it! Talk about a messy airplane.......We tried some stuff called "Steen C" in the 60's that smelled awfull and turned everything it touched brown. Anyone remember K&B Speed fuel from the late 60's? It had "bean oil" in it. Something that a couple of guys from North Carolina came up with. Then came the UCON LB625. It is still a good oil. Even tried some oil out of California in the late 1970's called NPG. That worked real well but you couldn't leave your fuel in the sunlight because it turned black. No doubt that there are oils that may be better suited for what we do, but all of the UCONS ( MA 731 and MA 2270 included ) work well.

You guys that like to go for the records need to listen to Mr. Finn from Texas. The old Ukie speed fliers know how to make little engines go fast.........that's "60's and 70's" technology.........and it's right on the money. The controline speed guys today have to go fast out of the same can of 10% nitro fuel. Talk about having your hands tied........World Class FAI Speed uses an 80/20 mix of methanol and CASTOR oil and has done so as far back as I can remember ( even at my age ). Ever seen a .15 size engine run 180+ MPH? 40,000 RPM's sounds awesome!

We always want to know what the latest and the greatest is that the "big dogs" are using to go fast with. That's fine for them, but it might not work the same for you or me. That's what's so great about this hobby...........there are so many different things to try to make your boat do what you want it to. Everyone is willing to tell you what the "hot set-up" is, but the ONLY way you will know FOR SURE is to GO TO THE LAKE AND TRY IT YOURSELF!!!

There will always be more than one way to "skin the cat"..........

Dick Tyndall

 

[Don Ferrette]

And this comparison between airplanes & boats continues. Two different totally different critters, two totally different requirements. I've tried many other "combinations" & have learned to appreciate the technological advancements in lubrication over the last 20+ years. Hmmm, sure is funny how myself & a few others who collectively hold just about all of the IMPBA's top nitro oval & SAW hydro records seem to be on the same page as far as our choice of the oils we use. I know what works & how to apply it, which perhaps might explain the odd differences between those of us who swear by what we use & those who are so quick to blame the same when they trash an engine. Offering opinions & options as to what each person uses is a welcome thing, but to simply post that a particular oil is "junk" just because you happen to lose a motor while quite a number of others have had great success with it is absurd. It might be different if everyone was having the same problems but that is simply not the case, why is that?? Perhaps those few of you who are so quick to blame the oil might want to actually look at why it's working so well for so many others, try thinking outside the little box or is it just too easy to blame something other than yourself or something you might have done. Mistakes happen, we all do it, is it so hard to think you might have actually done something wrong? To each his own as I'm done with this bullsxxt, you guys go right ahead & do what you like. Terry Keeley says it best- "if you always do what you always did, you will always get what you always got."

 

[tnrcboatracer]

No confusion here. I'm not a new boater. My IMPBA# is 6846, been boating on and off for 30yrs. Just thought I would venture into fuel mixing. It's fun to see the opinions. I will probably go with some sort of LB625/synthetic oil blend, leaving out the castor. I forgot to mention that I run ceramic bearings. Any comments on the additives (Prolong, Zmax, ZR1, etc)?

 

[Dan_Cousin]

No confusion here. I'm not a new boater. My IMPBA# is 6846, been boating on and off for 30yrs. Just thought I would venture into fuel mixing. It's fun to see the opinions. I will probably go with some sort of LB625/synthetic oil blend, leaving out the castor. I forgot to mention that I run ceramic bearings. Any comments on the additives (Prolong, Zmax, ZR1, etc)?

I haven't heard of one of the "additives" that wasn't eventially proved to be liquid BS.

 

[Bob Finn]

Tidewater used to sell the "blue oil". I think they bought it by the barrell from Morgan.. There were about 10 of us that were running it and having problems. At one particular race in Louisianna, we were burning down engines one right after another. It was obvious lack of lubrication. Saturday night at the race, we were talking and realized the one common thing we were running was the oil. Several of us borrowed fuel that was mixed with MA731, and Sunday was a different day. We could actually race w/o turning everything inside the motors blue. Thats my experience. If you want to go as fast as possible, and don't care about cost or engine life, then be my guest. Run the blue stuff, polyoxide, X2c, etc. They have been around for years. They run fast on the tach and will go fast til you miss the needle. Its good for the parts business though! At Orlando Winternats, Carlo and I saw the results of Morgan oil in a Zenoah. The motor was absolutely welded. Carlo rebuilt it for the customer, and he burned it down again before they realized why it happened. I've gone through about 4 barrels of 731, and several barrels of KL199 with excellent results over the 40 years or so. I do mix 2-3 oz of Blendzall with the KL199. I guess I'm hard headed and old fashioned, but I don't like to burn motors down.

 

[Tony Jacuzzi]

What other Methanol compatabile synthetics are there on the market other than the Morgans?

Tony J

 

[dave roach]

Tony

The klotz kl200 is synthetic and mixes well with alc. and nitro.

The kl100 is synthetic ,castor mix and works well with alc.and nitro.

I have been using the kl100 for 15 years with no problems.

Dave Roach