Engine & Boat Tuning for Methanol

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So the next logical progression in this conversation is how do we cram even more oxygen into the motor to aid the burn without resorting to oxygen rich fuels, and capitalising on the higher compression available.....

The logical one is supercharging in it's various forms. Is there anything else worth discussing?

Having said all of that - less fuel requirement means a lighter boat and possible redesign of hulls to capitalise on the extra space that's no longer required.
 
For those who want to praise the virtues of nitro here, PLEASE read the title of this thread. :eek:

Im just pointing out some facts, the big difference between nitro and methanol.

Still havent seen your answer Andy, where u claim EVERYONE is doing it all wrong.....

Tim, Yes u are very correct, A tuned pipe is also a supercharger, no moving parts, working on sound and pressure waves.
 
I have only run 5% in the boat, so I maybe wrong there, but I don't think so. I have run both 0% and different amounts of low nitro in the car and with the correct head I can find no difference in reliabily, ease of tuning or general performance, with the exception of generally less power. On the other hand if the head is not made to correctly match the straight methanol all the problems you and others speak of are present and are only improved upon by adding nitro.
Hi Andy,

So would I be right in assuming that the compression ratio and squish % and or angle needs addressing to avoid those issues had, which were "only improved upon by adding nitro".

I have a test day planned for this sunday coming and will be playing solely with a mod 20 tunnel with a L/S engine. If I have time and don't break anything serious I will try some FAI 4:1 at the end of the day.

This boat currently runs on 50%Nitro, Has an air cooled head with 0.17cc bowl and 0 degree squish which is 50% of the bore. Clearance at 0.008". K&B 1L plugs. What suggestions would you make for a different button to suit the FAI 4:1 fuel?

Tim.
Yes Tim! Methanol needs much more compression than nitro. This is a documented fact in all circles of engine design.

Even the Italian engine makers know this. Rossi always offered Nitro heads and low nitro/methanol heads, refered to as "normal" heads.

The Nitro heads always had a larger volume.

The problem it that we nitro boaters in most cases found that even the Italian "normal" heads had too much volume for high nitro and their "nitro" heads were way too big for anything.

You do in fact want to have a trapped CR of 17:1 or more.

The other thing needed for Methanol is a more retarded ignition point.

I little nitro added to methanol will retard the ignition point, however if we want to run Straight Methanol me must find another way to retard the ignition point.

There are several ways to do this.

More later!
The site which suggested 17:1 compression ratio was referring to four strokes. In our application where the oil is 15-20% by volume, surely the properties of the oil would reduce maximum compression limit before detonation below 17:1 TCR? :huh:

Ian
 
I have only run 5% in the boat, so I maybe wrong there, but I don't think so. I have run both 0% and different amounts of low nitro in the car and with the correct head I can find no difference in reliabily, ease of tuning or general performance, with the exception of generally less power. On the other hand if the head is not made to correctly match the straight methanol all the problems you and others speak of are present and are only improved upon by adding nitro.
Hi Andy,

So would I be right in assuming that the compression ratio and squish % and or angle needs addressing to avoid those issues had, which were "only improved upon by adding nitro".

I have a test day planned for this sunday coming and will be playing solely with a mod 20 tunnel with a L/S engine. If I have time and don't break anything serious I will try some FAI 4:1 at the end of the day.

This boat currently runs on 50%Nitro, Has an air cooled head with 0.17cc bowl and 0 degree squish which is 50% of the bore. Clearance at 0.008". K&B 1L plugs. What suggestions would you make for a different button to suit the FAI 4:1 fuel?

Tim.
Yes Tim! Methanol needs much more compression than nitro. This is a documented fact in all circles of engine design.

Even the Italian engine makers know this. Rossi always offered Nitro heads and low nitro/methanol heads, refered to as "normal" heads.

The Nitro heads always had a larger volume.

The problem it that we nitro boaters in most cases found that even the Italian "normal" heads had too much volume for high nitro and their "nitro" heads were way too big for anything.

You do in fact want to have a trapped CR of 17:1 or more.

The other thing needed for Methanol is a more retarded ignition point.

I little nitro added to methanol will retard the ignition point, however if we want to run Straight Methanol me must find another way to retard the ignition point.

There are several ways to do this.

More later!
The site which suggested 17:1 compression ratio was referring to four strokes. In our application where the oil is 15-20% by volume, surely the properties of the oil would reduce maximum compression limit before detonation below 17:1 TCR? :huh:

Ian
Ian,

There is also oil in our nitro engines and yet we run CR of 10:1 and sometimes more.

Also the mixture ratio for straight nitro is about 1.5:1 while Methanol is about 6.5:1.

This means we a pumping a huge amount of non compressable liquid into the engine when using nitro.

Ken, It was not and is not my intention to point out what anyone one is doing wrong, but only to introduce ideas for making Methanol work well.

Dave noted some of the problems he had running Methanol and I know those problems do not need to exist ,therefore I said he was doing it wrong. Dave has not provided any information about his engine so there is no way that I or anyone can point out what he is doing wrong.

I also mentioned to Jack that I believed there is better way to set up his car engine, because I know how those engines are set-up. Same goes for the current Profi and Cyclone FAI Speed engines.

BTW- Some time ago I was making heads for nitro racing engines that were easy on plugs and provided great off the corner torque. These were made for 50-60% nitro and the CR was about 14:1. They were not as fast on the top end so they have not been used in any of my engines for some time.
 
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Correct me if I'm wrong as I'm no chemist, but I believe methanol has a pretty high heat absorption rate. So, if one could take advantage of that cooling effect and put it to use, particularly in the intake tract. For example, instead of using the rather common spraybar we use now in the carburetor, change to something similar to the Carl Brey annular discharge type to break the fuel into smaller droplets which are dispersed more evenly through the intake bore. This could possibly, just theorizing here, cool the entire intake tract more than available with conventional spraybars allowing a more dense charge into the motor. I would think then that the carburetor bore size would have to be altered (larger) to keep a somewhat stoichiometric ratio in range to take full advantage of this. A side benefit here might also be that a larger denser charge contains more oil for lubrication, as that was a concern mentioned in earlier posts due to the leaner needle required when just switching fuel types from nitro bearing to no nitro with minimal other changes. The next step then is how to efficiently burn this larger charge. Perhaps we really wouldn't need very much water going through the jacket, or a longer pipe. Just a couple of thoughts, not necessarily right or wrong.
Good points!

My work with the MAC buggy engines is what got me interested in the idea of Straight Methanol.

In our short 2 minute boating racing we could care less about fuel milege. Just burn more for more power and if we run out....just build a BIGGER tank!

However in car racing power and milege are important.

I'm pulling some numbers off the top of my head, but this will give you the idea.

A 4oz tank of 50% has about 1800 BTU's of energy. A 4 oz. tank of Methanol has 2300 BTU's of energy.

Let say we have an engine set up for 50% and it will use up the 4 oz tank in two minutes.

If we run the Methanol in this same engine set up for 50% nitro it would probably run for six minutes and not go as fast.

But look at the potential if we could build an engine that would burn up the full tank of Methanol in two minutes.

We could have 25% more power for a two minute race.

I just use this to illustrate a point. That is to attempt to burn up a lot of fuel as quickly as possible.

This means maximun compression and maximum mass flow through the engine.

Certainly this is the goal in every racing engine, but it's important to understand that the 4 oz tank of Methanol is going to need about twice as much air to burn it all up compared to the tank of 50%.
Well,your right about 1 thing for sure, its going to take alot more air! So if an engine can be built like that, maybe someone can talk to Cmb about building one!!? J Lutz
 
Unfortunately I had a bad day at the pond and didn't get to test Methanol like I had mentioned earlier.

1 broken flex cable, one dead rudder servo and then damaged linkages all in quick succession meant the boating gods were against me having a good day.
 
i have converted my CMB 90 powered Insane Mono to 0% nitro and ran it last weekend. it RAN GREAT!!!!!!!!!!!

i had to change a few things but it hit the water, i adjusted the needle from the transmitter and off it went. great speed and no signs of doing anything odd or bogging down or anything like that. Running no nitro on the big CMB was very easy. will be experimenting on the smaller motors after racing season is finished.

did i burn up any plugs? NOPE

did it pull away on the launch ok? sure did

is the speed as fast as with nitro? quite possibly (dont have a radar gun to verify unfortunately)

any oddities in the turns and idling down for a simulated start? NOPE

it does work quite well folks,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

try it you will like it

and it is easy on the pocket book also.

one thing tho, the guys at the lake did say i had a GREAT SMELLING fuel.

HAHAHAHA i went to the LHS and Jack (the owner) gave me a little bottle of fuel scent. SO, it now smells like grape. it is labeled GONZO GRAPE :lol:
 
Excellent post Carl!

Thanks for sharing your info. Hopefully it will inspire a few more people to try it also.

Tim.
 
Chris:i hope your dad does well with his new hip after surgery.

carl
Just a few things I can remember from my dyno testing Alky motors in the late 70's on 100 to 125cc cylinders. We were experimenting with different fuels in antipaction of a rule change.

Nitro slows down the flame front in the cly. which requires Ing. timing changes and most importantly Pipe changes!

Nitro gives makes more tq. down in the band and less above say 18,000 rpm

Oil increases the C/R and slows down the flame front.

Heat (EGT) equals HP on alky as long as your port timing is not so wild that your still burning lots of fuel in the pipe, we ran 1000+ degrees on linered cyl.'s and 1100 to 1200 degrees on water cooled nicisil (more prous chrome)on alu. cyl's.

EGT on alu. pipe will read lower # because of the alu. pipe.

Steel pipes make more power, insulated steel pipes make even more power!

A water thermostat greatly increased the tuneability, HP and reliability.

Cyl. heads need very shallow domes and about 8 degrees of taper COMPARED to the piston dome to keep the speed of the flame front up as it expands near the edge the cyl. 50% squish bands worked best for us.

Polish the head and piston top all the way down to Jewelers rouge level.

Be careful with squish band clearance, we could not get below .010 COLD, it changes warmed up, with needle bearings. Bushed will require more clearance unless your willing to change bushings on a regular basis.

Prop down! the motor will turn more rpm on the same timing after adjusting the pipe.

I hopes this helps boaters understand some of the changes required, just take one step at a time and test.

Now you know why I am racing with Electric power now days!!!
 
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Chris;

if for some reason the implant does not work you can always fire up the lathe and milling machines and make a new one for him.

:D

carl

anyways hope he gets well soon as i am more thanlikely going to hav eto have the same thing done inabout 1-2 years and maybe a knee as well. :(
 
I here ya carl.

just don't put it off for to long like dad did or it will just get to the point you can't take it any more.

chris
 
Well here we are 7 years later and I finally got out to the lake last weekend with a boat and a gallon of Alky with 15% castor. Burned up the whole gallon and had a great time testing a few things.

Burn only one plug only because it was too hot, actually just broke it. It still looked new.

Ran the same pitch prop as 60%, but with much less cup and trimmed diameter. The electric boats have proven that our boats do not require the blade area that we MUST use to load our nitro engines.

Easy Launch.

Very wide range with the needle.

Long run times...but that will go down as I optimize the engine/pipe for the 0% fuel.

Engine and pipe ran cool...almost too cool and I was only cooling the top of the button. It was a 75 degree day.

Speed and acceleration was off a little, but I believe it can be improved with engine and pipe mods. Milled slow, jumped back on pipe quickly.

I did run the engine as it was set up for 60% aside from a smaller volume head.

From my experience with the buggy engine I was suggesting more head clearance 7 years ago, but in the boat just as with nitro a tight clearance was much better.

Head showed no detonation at the end of the day. Only darkened in areas from the castor.

The plug that I ran for most of the runs still looked shiny new.

Stay tuned for more test results.
 
Isn't alky fuel called FAI fuel. Seems some countries have banned nitro and they have built engines for FAI fuel.
 
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