Engine & Boat Tuning for Methanol

[John Knight]

Looking at the other thread about the nitro supply, thought a new thread about converting to methanol is needed. I hear the Wood's comments about switching over in 2009, but for many that may be too late. This year will have to do it for some. If the change costs us 10 mph, so what as that is the speed gains we have seen in the past 5 years anyway. We just revert to what speeds we had in the past. Will be safer at the lake too.

I am assuming the methanol is the very same that we use already in the fuel now. Correct?

What changes from the present nitro setup, for discussion purposes use 50% as that is a fairly standard nitro mix, to go to methanol and oil:

1. Needles? Lower nitro means leaner needles. How much from 50% nitro to 0%?

2. Pipe lengths. Do they change and how?

3. Pipe volumes? Will they change, ie. get smaller, larger?

4. Props. Smaller and/or less pitch or?

5. Any other changes needed?

For the guys that have used the straight methanol before, please give some of your experience to those that have not. I have been racing since 1991 and has always been with nitro so I have no experience to draw from.

One possible benefit, besides a much lower cost, is that since both nitro and methanol absorb moisture from the air, water contamination with all methanol I would think it should be less of a concern.

 

[rctinman]

Hi John..

I have no answers to your questions, but there is someone I think that can answer most, if not all of these questions, and that is Jack O'Donnel. He may still, but at one time he raced tether cars. They go at least 200 MPH WITH NO NITRO! I've had the pleasure of seeing one of Jack's cars, and it was a work of art!

Steve Ball

Looking at the other thread about the nitro supply, thought a new thread about converting to methanol is needed. I hear the Wood's comments about switching over in 2009, but for many that may be too late. This year will have to do it for some. If the change costs us 10 mph, so what as that is the speed gains we have seen in the past 5 years anyway. We just revert to what speeds we had in the past. Will be safer at the lake too.
I am assuming the methanol is the very same that we use already in the fuel now. Correct?

What changes from the present nitro setup, for discussion purposes use 50% as that is a fairly standard nitro mix, to go to methanol and oil:

1. Needles? Lower nitro means leaner needles. How much from 50% nitro to 0%?

2. Pipe lengths. Do they change and how?

3. Pipe volumes? Will they change, ie. get smaller, larger?

4. Props. Smaller and/or less pitch or?

5. Any other changes needed?

For the guys that have used the straight methanol before, please give some of your experience to those that have not. I have been racing since 1991 and has always been with nitro so I have no experience to draw from.

One possible benefit, besides a much lower cost, is that since both nitro and methanol absorb moisture from the air, water contamination with all methanol I would think it should be less of a concern.

 

[Jerry Wyss]

My brain tells me the largest difference will be in the headbutton volume,, straight methanol will need a much larger volume.

Somebody is gonna be real busy opening alot of headbuttons.

I assume torque will be down fairly dramatically, so the props will have to compensate.

Pipe length, as far as I know shouldn't change much,, I said, "as far as I know". The actual pipe construction may be different

in order to get a broader powerband for the torque loss.

The "up" side should be, engines much easier to start, broad needle range, plugs and bearings will last much longer.

JW

 

[AndyBrown]

Hi John..
I have no answers to your questions, but there is someone I think that can answer most, if not all of these questions, and that is Jack O'Donnel. He may still, but at one time he raced tether cars. They go at least 200 MPH WITH NO NITRO! I've had the pleasure of seeing one of Jack's cars, and it was a work of art!

Steve Ball

Looking at the other thread about the nitro supply, thought a new thread about converting to methanol is needed. I hear the Wood's comments about switching over in 2009, but for many that may be too late. This year will have to do it for some. If the change costs us 10 mph, so what as that is the speed gains we have seen in the past 5 years anyway. We just revert to what speeds we had in the past. Will be safer at the lake too.
I am assuming the methanol is the very same that we use already in the fuel now. Correct?

What changes from the present nitro setup, for discussion purposes use 50% as that is a fairly standard nitro mix, to go to methanol and oil:

1. Needles? Lower nitro means leaner needles. How much from 50% nitro to 0%?

2. Pipe lengths. Do they change and how?

3. Pipe volumes? Will they change, ie. get smaller, larger?

4. Props. Smaller and/or less pitch or?

5. Any other changes needed?

For the guys that have used the straight methanol before, please give some of your experience to those that have not. I have been racing since 1991 and has always been with nitro so I have no experience to draw from.

One possible benefit, besides a much lower cost, is that since both nitro and methanol absorb moisture from the air, water contamination with all methanol I would think it should be less of a concern.

Actually Methanol is more hygroscopic than nitro, so you won't want to buy in large quantities. You can get premixed fuel

or mix your own. Try to find a local supplier that has a high turnover rate and a good storage system. We get ours from a local go-cart track.

The Teathered boat racers in England run well over 100 mph on Alky. Think the record is about 135 mph.

Heads will be the most important change along with props that have minimal cup. With high nitro we sometimes use extra cup to load the motor and help burn the nitro, not for the extra pitch.

Less Liquid fuel will go through the engine on each stroke, so if you normally run a low amount of Oil (10-12%), you'll need a little extra oil for engines with bushed aluminum rods.

 

[John Knight]

Andy,

Can you explain more about the head buttons? What are you looking at from a 50% nitro button? How about the head clearances, will they change?

Would 14% oil be sufficient for bushed rods regardless of engine size?

Thanks for all of us.

 

[tnrcboatracer]

I was thinking that the head volume would go down, not up. In the past I opened up the chamber volume on my OPS90s to run higher nitro. I agree with the additional oil, as you will be running leaner.

 

[hydro]

A long while back, I experimented with very low nitro fuel. I bought some Sig 5% nitro with 20% castor/Klotz oil at the local hobby shop to run in my Picco 45 EXR Rigger. It actually ran very well and did not notice a great of loss in speed. What I did is remove a head shim, lean it down and took a little cup out of the 1457 prop I was running. I also loosen the boat up slightly by increasing the AOA of the front sponsons. It was great on fuel mileage and the glow plug lasted just about forever. I never tried just methanol, but even if nitro become very expensive and I am sure it's going to be, a little nitro like 5 percent should not cost to much. But I am all for running just methanol, the cost of RC boating is just getting to darn expensive and running no or low nitro saves on fuel cost, engine blowups and glow plugs and those three items are the biggest expense. We all know that the boats setup accounts for more in performance than any amount of nitro ever could.

John

 

[DaveMarles]

We raced boats in the UK for many years on no nitro and sorry to give you bad news but believe me you don't want to be doing it. Motors and pipes run very hot and burn plugs like you wouldnt believe. Getting away from the shore is much more difficult, piston liners have to have a perfect fit and be replaced very often. Only the very best engine experts will have any kind of success with no nitro. Many people will find it impossible.

Dave

 

[Terry Keeley]

We raced boats in the UK for many years on no nitro and sorry to give you bad news but believe me you don't want to be doing it. Motors and pipes run very hot and burn plugs like you wouldnt believe. Getting away from the shore is much more difficult, piston liners have to have a perfect fit and be replaced very often. Only the very best engine experts will have any kind of success with no nitro. Many people will find it impossible.
Dave

There ya go, from someone that knows first hand. I wouldn't get too stressed about the nitro situation, I'll bet DSR racing gets their way soon and everything settles back down...

 

[AndyBrown]

A long while back, I experimented with very low nitro fuel. I bought some Sig 5% nitro with 20% castor/Klotz oil at the local hobby shop to run in my Picco 45 EXR Rigger. It actually ran very well and did not notice a great of loss in speed. What I did is remove a head shim, lean it down and took a little cup out of the 1457 prop I was running. I also loosen the boat up slightly by increasing the AOA of the front sponsons. It was great on fuel mileage and the glow plug lasted just about forever. I never tried just methanol, but even if nitro become very expensive and I am sure it's going to be, a little nitro like 5 percent should not cost to much. But I am all for running just methanol, the cost of RC boating is just getting to darn expensive and running no or low nitro saves on fuel cost, engine blowups and glow plugs and those three items are the biggest expense. We all know that the boats setup accounts for more in performance than any amount of nitro ever could.
John

"There ya go, from someone that knows first hand."

 

[AndyBrown]

"When the Angus plant in La. blew up and nitro was short, I set up my Rossi 65 to run on 5%. It ran very well."

Andy Brown

"There ya go, from someone that knows first hand."

 

[AndyBrown]

We raced boats in the UK for many years on no nitro and sorry to give you bad news but believe me you don't want to be doing it. Motors and pipes run very hot and burn plugs like you wouldnt believe. Getting away from the shore is much more difficult, piston liners have to have a perfect fit and be replaced very often. Only the very best engine experts will have any kind of success with no nitro. Many people will find it impossible.
Dave

That's because you were doing something wrong Dave!

 

[Tofastformellow]

have a think of this....

How big does a hull have to be if the motors running on hot mix 5/1 ?? and not 50% , hey we can use smaller hulls !! shed weight and gain speed

get gas turbines !!

Jason

 

[DaveMarles]

We raced boats in the UK for many years on no nitro and sorry to give you bad news but believe me you don't want to be doing it. Motors and pipes run very hot and burn plugs like you wouldnt believe. Getting away from the shore is much more difficult, piston liners have to have a perfect fit and be replaced very often. Only the very best engine experts will have any kind of success with no nitro. Many people will find it impossible.
Dave

That's because you were doing something wrong Dave!

Andy, My last 2 sentences say it all.

And.... No nitro is a world away from 5% nitro.

Dave

 

[Tim_Duggan]

I wouldn't get too stressed about the nitro situation, I'll bet DSR racing gets their way soon and everything settles back down...

Terry,

that may well be the case, but there is still a very valid argument for attempting to reduce our reliance on high % of nitromethane - Cost containment. Also, it may stem some of the flow away from nitro to gas racing.

Personally I think a low % of nitro would be better than straight methanol / oil mix, but that raises the issue of how do you enforce it? No nitro would be easier to enforce, but it's harder to tune for than even 5% nitro.

Tim.

 

[Jerry Wyss]

I for one will not kneel at the altar of low (or no) nitro, looks like I'm gonna have a ton of stuff for sale if thats the case.

JW

 

[Geraghty]

Personally I think a low % of nitro would be better than straight methanol / oil mix, but that raises the issue of how do you enforce it? Tim.

Have the host club supply the fuel right at the race and raise the entry fee accordingly.

When Angus Chemical burnt several years ago we limited the nitro content in district 8 to 15%.The racing was great and as I recall we suffered no more tuning problems or mechanical failures than usual.

What I do recall was how much leaner we were able to run using 15%.A 6 oz. fuel tank in a 3.5 tunnel would run for 15 minutes.

 

[AndyBrown]

There is no need to make rules. If you want to run 70% then run it. If 0% is what you want then run it.

Will the guy running 70% win more races? Probably not. Will the guy running 0% win races? Yes!

Three years ago I did a good bit of testing with 0% nitro.

0% is just as easy to run as 50% and easier than 70% as long as the engine is set up for low or no nitro.

No differenece between 0% and 5%.

Dave, guess I'll just have to build some Alky engines for everyone. An Expert in every box!

Rod, A tank of 0% has about 20% more BTU's of energy than the same tank of 50% fuel; it's about 20% lighter too!

Dave, That's something to consider for those long FSR-V races.

Also, overheating, blowing plugs and lack of torque are all symptoms of an incorrect engine set-up.

If you put 0% in your 60% engine, that is exactly what you will get.

 

[DaveMarles]

Andy, Normally I agree with what you have to say but on this we have to agree to disagree If you think that running with 0% and 5% there is no difference and that running 0% is so easy then better go and get some people to try it because no engine setup will resolve the problems. A correctly set up engine/pipe for 0% nitro of course is necessary but it won't change the fact that 0% nitro would probably kill off a lot of boat racing.

As I said, the ONLY people who will do well will be the best engine experts. Thats reality and I speak from experience. I could supply engines set up for 0% nitro tomorrow but I'd also get a big stock of plugs in plus lots of engine spares and exhaust couplers.

Rod, 15% nitro limit is no problem other than policing it, in fact many people would find it easier than very high nitro.

Dave

 

[AndyBrown]

Andy, Normally I agree with what you have to say but on this we have to agree to disagree If you think that running with 0% and 5% there is no difference and that running 0% is so easy then better go and get some people to try it because no engine setup will resolve the problems. A correctly set up engine/pipe for 0% nitro of course is necessary but it won't change the fact that 0% nitro would probably kill off a lot of boat racing. As I said, the ONLY people who will do well will be the best engine experts. Thats reality and I speak from experience. I could supply engines set up for 0% nitro tomorrow but I'd also get a big stock of plugs in plus lots of engine spares and exhaust couplers.

Rod, 15% nitro limit is no problem other than policing it, in fact many people would find it easier than very high nitro.

Dave

Dave,

All I can agree on is that you are doing it wrong.

In fact, even the guys that use 80/20 in the speed events are doing it wrong.

The FAI speed plane guys burn those thing to the gound, Blown plugs, detonation, scuffed pistons...

I have run the MAC offroad buggy with 30% then modified it for 0%. It ran nearly the same and the head temp was the same. As you know temp is a big issue in the buggys.

Out of the hole punch was all there, zero to 22 mph in 15 ft. The best we ever got on 30% was 24 mph in 15 ft. and 22 -23mph was the norm.

No plug problems and easy to tune.