Don F, Debate Here.

[sjslhill]

Todd's models is being sured for $350,000 due to a failure of the LiPoly sack that he sold a customer from the info that I was told. I do not know what was damaged due to the fire.

LiPo sacks will NOT work in F/E racing unless your running 2100-3S or less...in other words they will not work for the IMPBA or NAMBA rules.

 

[Dennis Whitt]

Just popping my head in.Why not just regulate the speed control amperage for each class.Regardless of manufacturer they all have max amp capasity.Just thinking out loud.

 

[Dennis Whitt]

Ok,How about a lipo charging area with a volunteer overseaing the chargers watching for any problems.Just like haveing a volunteer at the radio impound.Would this help ?

I refuse to get caught up in the slander and bickering as I have been watching these posts and those remarks are getting us nowere.

I think everyone here as a real perseption and or fear.It is important that we do this right.So why beat up the guys sticking there pepe in the wind ??

Steve has some valid points as does Don,Daron and poor Terry.I am glad you are the man on this one.The patience of Jobe I say.

Keep hashing guys.I have faith in all that this WILL get worked out.But come on can we please keep it on track ??

Thanks for all of your efforts !!

Just a humble boater.

 

[dwb2620]

I am not familiar with Lipos. Do they not have cut offs to avoid overcharging? IF not, why not? Seems to me that would solve a lot of problems with that particular type of battery. I am speaking with ignorance on this issue, so no flaming please. h34r:

 

[AlanN]

I do not believe that our liablity increases much if any more just becouse we are using a Lipo cells compared to our older cells. Yes, charging in the pit is the most potentially dangerous point in time...that is why we (the guys I race with) keep sand or dirt handy and charge away from flamable materials.

Cutoff devices are currently being made but not any for the larger cell classes that I am aware of.

Some speedcontrollers do have a programming feature that allows the owner to do just that. But not all of them do.

Fuses are not a good idea...extra resitance and an electric setup can spike the amperage higher than what the racer has setup the model to run. ex: the hull gets airborne and re-enters the water causing the spike...also on start up the amps might be higher than actual running....or a leaf or blades of grass get caught on the prop rudder or turnfin.

 

[Jim Caldwell]

Yes, dwb, the chargers have voltage cut offs for charging. On some of them you have to set it manually each time you charge a pack and guys could forget or distracted. But now we an additional device called a balancer to prevent that.

Alan is referring to throttle cut off device that shut down the motor if you ran the battery down too low. There will be larger cutoff units available this spring I'm told.

 

[drobie]

A mixed bag of comments....

LiPo sacks will NOT work in F/E racing unless your running 2100-3S or less...in other words they will not work for the IMPBA or NAMBA rules.

1. The manufacturer recommends the currect product up to 6 cells and they're coming out with a "High Voltage" version. I've witnessed them work. After racing one evening at our event they were tested under controlled conditions. The batts had to be repeaked MANY times to get them to go. All that came out of the Sack was smoke. I still use the Sack.

2. I got a toy heli for Xmas from my wife. E-Flite Blade. RTR. Lipos in the box. Horizon Hobby must use Lloyd's of London given that they're putting them in the hands of kids who buy these entry level helis. Oh wait, they include a charger that makes them safe. Who woulda thunk?

3. I don't know anyone that buys matched NiMHs anymore, so cost comparisons are overblown and not accurate. Remember the cost comparisons between brushed and BL? Who cares? How many of us have put all the money we saved on running BL instead of brushed into our retirement accounts?

4.

Legislating equality between the two technologies can not happen. The performance is superior with LiPo. No arguement there from anyone.

If the proposal gets defeated, it's because members will resist the overnight change. If nitro racers had a new technology with which they couldn't legislate equality between old and new, what would they do? Probably run/and or score them separately, at minimum, until the majority adapted the new technology.

Geez what a novel idea.

BTW, I can afford to adapt and will run lipos next season. I'm not thinking of me. It's human nature to not want forced change on an issue like this.

Worried about accidents? The proposal is telling members to "cram for the exam" by running out and buying their first lipos so they can compete. Yes they can still run NiMHs, just like they can run a 700 motor in P Sport.

It should be an interesting season.

 

[sjslhill]

4 random IB3600 cells that have been cycled many times, left totally discharged for weeks and tested again at 35 amps. (yes, I can run them at 70 if someone wants it)

410

1.202

411

1.203

413

1.204

422

1.200

410 is 3986mah at 35 amps.

These are your durable cells of choice for NIMH. $3.95 a cell, NOT $12.00

($23.70 per 6 cell pack vs. $180 for 2 - 3700 2S packs of good LiPoly packs.)

 

[AlanN]

Ok Steve and how many times can you cycle them at 70 -80 amps before they start to fade?

 

[T.S.Davis]

If you would have been as interested in the subject as you are now, you could have read posts about potential fires, fire extiguishers, buckets of sand, etc, over the last 2-3 years. You could have read these posts ad nauseum. It went on and on and on.

I can't help it. I gotta ask. Where were all these debates when IMPBA was voting on their proposal? No amp or capacity restrictions. It had not a single safety parrameter built in. The NAMBA proposal at least has some safety. But for this one we have to have 20 some pages of debate. Why now? Where have you fuel boys been hiding?

IF there truely are two camps on this. And I think there are. Those to camps are:

1. hold them back

2. set me free

You all realize that neither is going to settle? Those that want limits and don't get them are going to throw themselves down and kick their feet. Those that want no noose around the neck will simply take their toys to a new pond. Even if they have to start a brand new organization to do it.

I really wanted the seperate scoring clause in there but the proposal is not mine. Puget has a large pool of accomplished racers to draw ideas from. They didn't feel it was necessary. It really isn't. We could easily force this to happen as the existing book allows us the freedom to do so.

 

[sjslhill]

I am not sure, how many classes run 70-80 amps continuous? Does anyone have that data on Eagle Tree or DRP? Is that for N2?

Do you have data for LiPoly packs as well? Can you lay out what each class does?

thanks for your help on this. Maybe we should focus on what classes are staying NIMH. I want to focus on the future, I know that LiPoly is the future for some classes.

thanks,

Steve

Ok Steve and how many times can you cycle them at 70 -80 amps before they start to fade?

 

[sjslhill]

Excellent points....looks like the IMPBA is in a different direction completly, good or bad. I think this thread is dead. All the points are out there now. We know that some classes as going LiPoly and we know that people are aware of safety issues.

Just be safe and let's move on.

thanks,

Steve

If you would have been as interested in the subject as you are now, you could have read posts about potential fires, fire extiguishers, buckets of sand, etc, over the last 2-3 years. You could have read these posts ad nauseum. It went on and on and on.

I can't help it. I gotta ask. Where were all these debates when IMPBA was voting on their proposal? No amp or capacity restrictions. It had not a single safety parrameter built in. The NAMBA proposal at least has some safety. But for this one we have to have 20 some pages of debate. Why now? Where have you fuel boys been hiding?

IF there truely are two camps on this. And I think there are. Those to camps are:

1. hold them back

2. set me free

You all realize that neither is going to settle? Those that want limits and don't get them are going to throw themselves down and kick their feet. Those that want no noose around the neck will simply take their toys to a new pond. Even if they have to start a brand new organization to do it.

I really wanted the seperate scoring clause in there but the proposal is not mine. Puget has a large pool of accomplished racers to draw ideas from. They didn't feel it was necessary. It really isn't. We could easily force this to happen as the existing book allows us the freedom to do so.

 

[Don Ferrette]

I can't help it. I gotta ask. Where were all these debates when IMPBA was voting on their proposal? No amp or capacity restrictions. It had not a single safety parrameter built in. The NAMBA proposal at least has some safety. But for this one we have to have 20 some pages of debate. Why now? Where have you fuel boys been hiding?
IF there truely are two camps on this. And I think there are. Those to camps are:

1. hold them back

2. set me free

Terry with all due respect it's not that at all, at least not in my case. I've had an interest in doing an FE 1/8 scale for a while & if you do a little digging I have posted as such in here from time to time. This winter I've already started building 2, and possibly a 3rd new scale hull & the interest was once again rekindled. Since building an FE scale that will run the speeds I want requires lots of "juice" naturally I was drawn to the search for "big power". I started doing some looking, admittedly harder than before & didn't like some of what I saw with the "new" lipo technology. The 2 things I became concerned with was the increased risks in working with these packs & the clear advantage power wise over "conventional cell packs". I couldn't help but wonder how the blanket green light the IMPBA gave to lipo's would affect those not running them in terms of a level playing field & honestly I didn't & still don't see it under the current established classes. I think Paul has seen it in his newly posted proposal that has capacity limits and his ideas deserve a very hard look. And as for safety I became concerned and still am that there will be a hard charge to lipo's and with it the odds will greatly increase that there could be a mishap or mishaps. Honestly I fully expect it, not because of anyone or thing but just because the way these things will get pushed to the extreme. I know there have been posts about "toys" and such being sold with lipo's but we all know those will never see the demands placed on them like these boats will give. I'll admit I should have been paying more attention previously when the lipo rule was passed but I didn't, my mistake. And to make matters worse it seemed no one wanted to even consider what I was saying, rather just take shots which only fueled the fire. You FE guys can take this for what it's worth, I'm not against this, just sorry I came in behind things. I want it done right and also done with a little safely in mind so IF we ever have to deal with it we're prepared.

And to Paul, sorry we got off wrong dude, my bad. I like what you're doing with moving forward, keep it up.

 

[drobie]

Regarding safety...

There's hope on the horizon for the more "conservative" racer: http://www.embedded.com/showArticle....leID=196700912

 

[sjslhill]

Maybe to power your receiver or something.... :blink: Those are not high current cells.

Regarding safety...
There's hope on the horizon for the more "conservative" racer: http://www.embedded.com/showArticle....leID=196700912

 

[Darin Jordan]

I am not sure, how many classes run 70-80 amps continuous? Does anyone have that data on Eagle Tree or DRP? Is that for N2?

Steve,

Brian Buaas stated that his N2-Hydro records 70-140amps during a heat, according to the data recorder...

Those 3600 series batteries gave me about 6-competitive heats in O-Sport before they started to fade... Thats a Neu 1515/1D, Prather 215 prop, in a Dark Horse Shovel... and I only finished 3rd (if I recall correctly... Might have been 2nd...) in the club with that setup for the 2-lap time-trial this year... WAY off of the pace... (about 3-seconds a lap off Greg Schweers times! h34r: ) The Elite 3600s were GREAT out of the box, but held up the worst amongst the cells I tried this season... IB4200's were the best, followed by the GP4300s... IB3800s weren't too bad either...

 

[sjslhill]

Thanks for the info, I think we need to look at 700 motor and N1 series for these cells. I started a new thread.

thanks again,

Steve

I am not sure, how many classes run 70-80 amps continuous? Does anyone have that data on Eagle Tree or DRP? Is that for N2?

Steve,

Brian Buaas stated that his N2-Hydro records 70-140amps during a heat, according to the data recorder...

Those 3600 series batteries gave me about 6-competitive heats in O-Sport before they started to fade... Thats a Neu 1515/1D, Prather 215 prop, in a Dark Horse Shovel... and I only finished 3rd (if I recall correctly... Might have been 2nd...) in the club with that setup for the 2-lap time-trial this year... WAY off of the pace... (about 3-seconds a lap off Greg Schweers times! h34r: ) The Elite 3600s were GREAT out of the box, but held up the worst amongst the cells I tried this season... IB4200's were the best, followed by the GP4300s... IB3800s weren't too bad either...

 

[T.S.Davis]

Don,

Those two camps I mentioned are more indicative of the FE community. There are two camps there.

I totally understand the safety concern. I'm a fire protection engineer by day. IN fact, the first time some folks wanted to get these into the books I was the anchor holding them back. Safety was my biggest concern. The new cells are less fragile. That got my attention. Then the latest proposal included some safety measures. I liked that. Another thing that IS going to happen is that FE is going to grow up. Back in the day I think (my opinion BTW) FE as a group thought of itself as somehow inferior to the other power options. Like we were playing with toys. Nobody thought of these toys as potentially dangerous. Safety? What ever! Not so anymore. We're reaching real speeds. Even our NiMh cells are potentially dangerous. We have to treat them as such. We're racing now. Not just hangin with our buds BS'n.

As for running an electric powered 1/8 scale you may want consider a few more things.

Think about a truely "scale" hull. There are real limits to how fast you can push one before the geometry stops working. This is of course based on my ignorance but even in sport classes a hull stops working as designed at some point. Just becomes another buoy then. If you could pump 20 hp out of your fuel powered boat would you? Or would you reach the hulls limitations and stop searching for power? Your still only going to be able run maybe mid to upper 60's? Before the thing gets squirrley I mean. How fast can you go? Again, my ignorance.

Something else to consider is that the only place to run an electric powered Unlimited is in the NAMBA FE Unlimited class. There are no provisions (in either book at the moment) for an 1/8 FE to run with their fuel conterparts. That's not to say you wouldn't be allowed to run with them. Multiple venues have allowed some FE's to play with them. That works. Unless you whipped em bad. haha Nobody has put a 30 series Lehner in an 1/8 scale yet as far as I know. Maybe Paul has seen one. We haven't even begun to see what's possible in a hydro with these new monsters. Brings me back to my earlier statement about there being physical limits on an 1/8 scale.

I'm not trying to discourage you. Just wanted you to be aware. AND! No offense to my FE brothers but I've been hoping someone experienced with Unlimited would build an electric powered scale.