A/A motors gettin some "Qs"

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izitbrokeyet?

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 5, 2003
Messages
1,908
New News on the A/A motors…….

I don't have specific info to share but….I heard from a "little birdy" that they were looking to purchase 4 of the new A/A motors through someone B) when they become available. Being as I have no affiliation with any Italian motor manufacturers, and have no current parts or equipment support <_< ; I have no problem with stating that some may find this interesting that a Major manufacturer would be so interested in a 'limited quantity production motor'.

Anyways …just thought I would share that others are interested...those who know me also know that I don’t care, I just figured some would be interested in here. I was impressed that a large MFG's R&D would be interested in the A/A motors.

... there it is....... I'll be back in a few weeks for sure ;)

KB
 
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While I haven't been following all the threads involving the A/A, I'm wondering where they'll be made...

Could the A/A stand for "All American"...? Sure would be nice if they were made here...

Duane
 
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While I haven't been following all the threads involving the A/A, I'm wondering where they'll be made...

Could the A/A stand for "All American"...? Sure would be nice if they were made here...

Duane
That's what I'm hearing. They will be made in the US 100%.
 
While I haven't been following all the threads involving the A/A, I'm wondering where they'll be made...

Could the A/A stand for "All American"...? Sure would be nice if they were made here...

Duane

As I understand it the A/A stands for Andy/Al.....which is indeed, 'All American'......

I would be happy if the old Macs were readily available before the new A/A engines came out....but, I suppose to draw interest, you create a super-engine first?
 
Maybe made by this old favorite...?

COX.jpg


Or, more likely MECOA...?
 
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Rumours , Rumours, Rumours...... I guess the nature of this web site is "have stick , will stir"..

Who really cares about what any engine manufacture is doing, if it works and can be purchased, then get it to the racers...Im getting the idea that some of you believe this is E-Harmony dot com?

Are we all here to fall in love or race?

I know my choice..and its won two races right out of the box!

This Rumour mill makes my head want to:

 
Rumours , Rumours, Rumours...... I guess the nature of this web site is "have stick , will stir"..

Who really cares about what any engine manufacture is doing, if it works and can be purchased, then get it to the racers...Im getting the idea that some of you believe this is E-Harmony dot com?

Are we all here to fall in love or race?

I know my choice..and its won two races right out of the box!

This Rumour mill makes my head want to:

:lol: :p :lol: Andy Brown and Al Hobbs will shot by sniper to your head :p
 
...Who really cares about what any engine manufacture is doing,...?...
Well Rey... Since I live in this country just as you do (actually, close by), I'd really like to see some healthy US made engines... Wouldn't you?

Duane
 
Duane,

Absolutely, & without a doubt, However....achieving such a feat and maintaining the consistency of tolerances to match the italian manufactures will be close to impossible. Not to mention the obvious price difference in labor costs associated with manufacturing.

Machining is more than drawings and settings on a CNC.

Experience with two stroke engines and the sensitivity for parts and the relationship for fitting those parts together with absolute consistency is something american machinists havent quite perfected.

Although the machining world has progressed tremendously over the last 20 years here in the States, NOT 1 company has put out an engine with any true consistency.

K/B put out engines sure, but there was a littany of problems over the years.. I know, I was on a short list of boaters who had the opportunity to select the best parts at the right time. ( No need to list the defects in parts or engines.)

If any company wants to build an American engine, I say great. Just stop talking about it and get it done.

The Italian machinists have a "soul" for two stroke engines.. this you cant teach to a machinist who knows nothing about the hobby....

Regardless, competition is great for this hobby. The more engines available, the better for the racers, depending or relying on one source for engines is bad for a hobby.

The real issue for us boaters is what is available now, is their a consistent supply of support/parts and does it fit into a racers budget. If the answer is no, then the competition that steps up first will reap the rewards.

This is called BUSINESS.
 
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Shark wrote;

"Absolutely, & without a doubt, However....achieving such a feat and maintaining the consistency of tolerances to match the italian manufactures will be close to impossible. Not to mention the obvious price difference in labor costs associated with manufacturing."

Shark,

This consistency of tolerances you speak of.......do you mean like the 2003 MAC 67's that were delivered with the exhaust port .020" lower, the boost port .027" lower and the side transfers .015" lower than the 2000, 2001 and 2002 MAC 67's when no change was specified????

Oh, and when I inquired to the ITALIAN manufacture as to why the BIG, HUGE difference, I got a basket full of excusses over the course of several fax exchanges. It took me 9 months to receive corrected liners.

I had no MAC 67's to sell for the 2003 season unless I was willing to sit down and modifiy the incorrect liners by hand.

In the mean time this same ITALIAN manufacture introduces the NEW IMPROVED 67 Greenhead with "HIGHER" Port Timing. GEE what a coincidence.

Can't remamber how many parts I replaced at no charge because the rod dragged the bottom of crankcases......

Or exhaust snouts that broke off because the O.D. was machined so far off center that one side was less than paper thin.....

Or O-rings that broke through drum housings into the intake tract, because the mold was made incorrectly.........

Or because the drive pin hole in the drum was not elongated correctly on a full batch of engines causing the drive pin to break off sending hard steel shrapnal through the engine, this even though the first 600 drums where made correctly........

OR..............YEP! Real Consistancy!?!?

NO hard feelings here. It's done, I learned something. I've kicked it in the ditch. And now I'm moving on.

Made in the USA! It is taking longer than I or anyone else would like. BUT, it will happen! And it will be good! And they will be price competitive. ;)

P.S. Shark, You have your new engines to run. Whatcha gettin' yer pannies is such a wad about...over some rumour anyways?!?! :rolleyes:
 
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Andy,

My panties ARENT in a bunch, in fact, rather than sit around and play in the love fest with the others, I chose to move forward and keep racing. These rediculous claims that there is a conspiracy to steal your ideas are just way too overwhelming.

I am glad you pointed out the flaws in the production of the MACS. Yes, indeed there were many issues that caused hardships for boaters that required assistance from CMDI. The exhaust snout on the case were off center, cranks dragged in the housing causing debris to go thru the sleeves and gall them up, the cases themselves were molded "weak" and case craters formed and that debris went thru many an engine.

But these are the things that happen with the start up of any engine, AMERICAN or ITALIAN.

Time corrects these defects as engineering modifications are made and the production motors improved. As to your requests of CMB for change, well, i make no claims to know what was said or wasnt.

In the USA, the maching industry is in a downturn, as outsourcing is all but killing the machining industry. each month in the USA, there are hundreds of auctions of machine shops no longer in business. The remaining shops have to price-point higher than other countries because of labor costs and tooling changes that must be made. This trend in the industry is devastating to not only the machinist but the tooling business as well. The cost of machines (all foreign) has gone up by 45%.

Any business that tries to go with a "start-up" project here in the USA would have to "piece" out all aspects of the engine thru the bid process just to try and keep the costs down, however, once this is done the project is all but doomed. It would be next to impossible for one shop to manufacture all components under one roof. This would be ideal at best but way too costly.

Consistency is all relative Andy. Nothing is perfect. By percentage, a good business model factors in errors and if 90% of production is accurate, then the 10% is negligible.

As for Italian machining, it is world reknown and second to none in the world. The top designers in the world study in Italy. That is not to say that things are not made wrong, it just means the consistency is better.

Kudos to you for trying to get a project made here in the USA. Not enough of that going around in this country today by any means. Once your engines are out, and the "start-up" blues are over, the competition can only improve. If they are priced well over the foreign engines, then a racer will have to decide if his budget will be able afford such. Intially, the MAC was priced more than the PICCO blackhead yet racers made the switch.

The cost of speed is also relative. If you have to ask how much going faster costs, then you couldnt afford it anyways. Boaters need to keep this in mind.

The real way to show support for CMDI is to purchase products and other services offered by CMDI. Talking about how much love we feel for CMDI isnt the same as putting money into the business. Talk is cheap, spending money is something different. I for one spend many a dollar with CMDI and am proud to do so.

While I have made an engine switch, the other services of CMDI are still a valuable aspect to the racing community. This is what keeps a business in business. Diversity. You have a good business model in place and I for one would appreciate it remaining as such.

 
Shark if you think an American can't produce a better motor than an Italian you've never seen one of Dub Jett's motors.
 
:ph34r: What about Russia motors example: K-engine also not sure will build new project there? :rolleyes: OR :huh: If K&B manifactory( made in USA) will may merge to CMDI (AA-pro) also will be success business??? Hope good grow business in USA
 
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Another great engine is the Precision Aero engines built by Nelson for Randy Smith. American made and some of the best piston/cylinder fits you will ever see. I use the 65 in my control line stunters and a buddy has one of his new 75's.

http://www.aeroproduct.net/3engines.jpg
 
Rey,

I am deeply troubled by your impression of the American machine trades. I sincerely hope that you are not in the trade. If you are, it is YOUR outward opinion that is smearing the reputaion of the machining capabilities in the country, and you are apparently part of the problem. I have been in the machine trades for about a decade and personally maintain the "perfect part" approach to my work. This means that if the dimension is not dead-on, I either re-cut it or start the part over. There are still plenty of shops in this country that maintain this very same philosophy, and they are prospering for it because there is no other country that can as well as the US. Sure you can go to the Swiss, Germans or Italians and get comparable work, but it will cost you just the same if not more. If you go to other countries where labor is cheaper, the quality goes to crap in short fashion, and they make no bones about it: "This is what you get". In the trade we have a saying: "Good, fast, cheap............ Pick any two." Yes, the machine trades are struggling in the country right now, and have been for a while, but it for sure isn't due to a lack of capability. It is entirlely due to "buyers" who are willing/eager to sell their children's future to foriegn supplyers for the sake of increased profits.

There is absoluely no problem finding a shop in this country capable of producing the parts needed for these engines, and even within the tolerances required. Finding one that can/will do it for a price that suits our market is the tough part. One would need to find someone with the capabilities and machinery that had a passion for the hobby and a willingness to make the parts for this marketable cost instead of the standard shop rate that most respectable shops charge. I can assure you that if I owned a machine shop that was adequately equipped (it's not for a lack of desire that I don't), I would most likely be producing Andy's engines for him, and he would NEVER need to modify any of the parts for a "stock" engine.

I am not in the market for any engines at the moment, so I really don't have a dog in the fight with this whole "A/A" bullcrap that keeps rearing it's ugly head, but I whole-hartedly, loudly cheer Andy for making an attempt at such a daunting task, and I sincerely hope he is successful at it. Let's just say that I am behind any attemp at keeping a product "domestic".
 
Brad,

Yes, I completely agree with you on all points. My experience with the trades is extensive.

I am an Executive Officer of the International Brotherhood of Teamsters. As i have negotiated many a union contract in the field of machinists along side the machinists unions and AFl-CIO. My experience covers a wide range of industries, beginning with United Parcel Service employees, Loomis Fargo drivers, Print paper drivers and warehousing, machining and teachers and finally, the sanitation industry.

I know first hand the impact on the machining industry here in the USA. While I am excited that a person like ANDY and his fine company would like to try and build production engines here in the States, It will be next to impossible to produce them at a reasonable cost given the parameters of todays business models.

Cheap work can be found, but at what expense? The customer, the company, the hobby? Its not an easy task to undertake. Re-tooling costs have to be made up at price-point. This factor raises the price of parts considerably.

In this period of time in our nations history, 72% of everything that is manufactured by american companies is done overseas. Its an ugly fact, but a fact nonetheless.

That doesn't leave much for the american machinists. Price-point impacts are higher on most "start-up" projects and that usually, as the trends are going, sends the work to the pacific rim, china and mexico.

Until our respective goverment reduces the need for foreign workers at slave wages, this trend can be expected to continue. Everyone looks the other way as long as it doesnt affect them directly.

The real losers in this economic equation are the USA consumers and the business that try an keep things american made. As I said in a previous post, the capabilities of the american machinist are second to none in my book, however, in the business world, they are not even considered. Todays business models are based around logistics and cost controls. There are large companies like UPS that take american companies overseas and wipe out american jobs for the sake of saving a few bucks. There is big money in logistics and logistical support. This new effort called "global marketing" is the death of the American machinist.

Dont be troubled by your impressions of my opinions, I, on a daily basis deal with the realities of commerce, trades and the infringement on the American workers.

I lobby here in sacramento with senators and congressmen to limit the outsourcing of labor related jobs and industries.

I can see the other side of the coin on the issue of american made engines. You may believe that I am synical, but not really, i am a professional, and sometimes you have to accept reality for what it is.

I respect your thoughts as you eloquently put them.

Peace.

Rey Garcia
 
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