40 rigger Electric conversion

[MarkTanski]

Multiple caps in parallel you add the values together so it seems as if its a larger value cap. They act like a single large cap of an equal value.

Testing has determined that an angle of attack of 5 degrees is the magic number for front sponsons.

Sorry the stats part of that program is not my work and I don't have the permission to give it away.

FE calc does the rest of the power calculations for selecting equipment, I saw no reason to recreate something that is already done and has a large user base.

SPeed calc came about because somebody started talking about the number of boats and setups they have been testing trting to develop some kind of method of guessing speed before you build the setup.

I'm just the dumb programmer, proof you don't need to know the logic behind what your program does! Stats confuse the hell out of me!

The castle line of escs going back to the Barracuda has been suspect in boats. I love their motors but don't believe their escs are worth the money. I'd spend the money on an Etti but not a castle at this point. Very disappointing because the new Hyda Ice has data logging capability.

 

[hugh hargett]

Multiple caps in parallel you add the values together so it seems as if its a larger value cap. They act like a single large cap of an equal value.

Testing has determined that an angle of attack of 5 degrees is the magic number for front sponsons.

Sorry the stats part of that program is not my work and I don't have the permission to give it away.

FE calc does the rest of the power calculations for selecting equipment, I saw no reason to recreate something that is already done and has a large user base.

SPeed calc came about because somebody started talking about the number of boats and setups they have been testing trting to develop some kind of method of guessing speed before you build the setup.

I'm just the dumb programmer, proof you don't need to know the logic behind what your program does! Stats confuse the hell out of me!

The castle line of escs going back to the Barracuda has been suspect in boats. I love their motors but don't believe their escs are worth the money. I'd spend the money on an Etti but not a castle at this point. Very disappointing because the new Hyda Ice has data logging capability.

Stats give you points to plot then you look at the shape and find a best line then from the best line you derive a function then from the function you can put in a value and get out a result.

I like etti as well looks like that what will be going into my scale as I want to run 12s and it will take 14s @ 200amps. best price of esc in its class thus far.

I "think" the turnigy aquastar series may have datalogging and the skywings have a power analyzer as well.

 

[MarkTanski]

No data logging on the aquastar, it's the same as swordfish and maybe seaking, they are all from hifei with different distributor labels, I'm not sure but the Turnigy marine may also be hifei. I've had goo luck with the Hifei escs, my buddy runs a 90 in a SV27 with a 2300kv 3650 motor, comes in very cool. The Hifei do have usb connectivity for programming from a laptop at the pond, I always bring my laptop to log battery charging.

I really need to get an eagletree data logger with gps!

The rest of the chinese escs are from suppo.

I just took delivery of a Suppo 3736 1970 kv outrunner, going to try it in my P mono in place of a Leopard 4074, then in a 1/10 hydro, don't really have a use for it but it was pretty cheap and I figured I'd give it a test.

More interested in what it will do in a 30" tunnel thats in the works pending plans. It will be in open air then, not so worried about cooling.

 

[hugh hargett]

News flash fighter cat racing has a 72 volt esc @170 amps wow looks like i found an esc for my screamer finally. I didnt see any safety disclosures for it fatal voltages yikes. The saw guys are gonna have a field day with this controller.

 

[fletch51]

I think if i tried a little harder i could have gotten more smoke out of her.

For the next ESC (ICE 240) A 7000 microfarad cap bank

 

[MarkTanski]

Ben over at Fightercat is a nice guy, been following the development of this esc for close to a year now, the beta testers had good luck with it.

Not entirely sure but I think he has them made by Suppo to his specs. Don't quote me on that though, he may have only been in contact about manufacturing.

He stands behind his stuff and goes the extra mile to help out people with his products.

 

[hugh hargett]

I think if i tried a little harder i could have gotten more smoke out of her.

For the next ESC (ICE 240) A 7000 microfarad cap bank

**** that was a catastrophic failure. Woah! Hey Fletch its fire proof now!

Nice cap bank! Make sure everything is right before you hook up your castle. Are you running the neu or the leo? If you running the leo call castle tell them what you got and see what they say. Just to be on the safe side. Its a big difference between 80$ and 300$. If you are going to stick with fe as it looks you caught the bug, get you some datalog equipment so you know where youre at on amp draw. Did you make any ride adjustments yet?

"Ben over at Fightercat is a nice guy, been following the development of this esc for close to a year now, the beta testers had good luck with it.

Not entirely sure but I think he has them made by Suppo to his specs. Don't quote me on that though, he may have only been in contact about manufacturing.

He stands behind his stuff and goes the extra mile to help out people with his products."

Yeah Mark, I just joined their site . Hes has a nice beginning thats for sure and that esc will put him on the map for sure. Have you checked the screamer footage? Impressive to say the least. The so cal guys are always up to something cool. I know they are aware of the power 16hp get you hand caught up and youre done . Get shocked and your done. Special attention should be observed when dealing with that kind of voltage. The price is rediculous though, hes gonna push other esc's off the market but what the other guys will do is offer and ultra hv esc with more features like you were speaking of datalogging,telemetry,etc...Id like to take some of the credit as I was one of the guys that owned this motor and said long ago when it was being slammed on another forum that it simply needed more voltage to perform. 2 years plus later someone finally listened.

 

[fletch51]

Thanks Hugh, I think I will call castle and see what they recommend about running ICE 240 with the leopard.

The ICE 240, when it arrives, is supposed to have data logging and I already have the Castle Link USB adaptor, I just need to borrow a laptop for the pond.

http://www.castlecreations.com/products/hydra_ice.html

I haven't messed with angles and stuff yet on the boat but I will raise the strut and set to zero. Plus I'll get a smaller prop.

Front sponsons are not adjustable yet. But I bought some used boom collars to seal the boom hole hull exits, but one of them has a 4-40 head broken off. Ive been slowly drilling it out.

Once this boat is setup properly and running fast and reliable, two of my buddies each have this identical unfinished boat, that will copy my equipment setup, and then we can do some sponson rubbing.

 

[hugh hargett]

I cant wait to see castles response. I hope for their sake that the esc holds up after you get that info. If it doesnt I think that will be the final verdict on the castle esc's. Not to sound like I want it to fail I definately do not, but if it does and they wont replace it free of charge after you get setup info from the support folks themselves then castle wont be right In my opinion.

Castle Hydra Ice: http://www.castlecreations.com/products/hydra_ice.html

 

[lohring]

The question is are you building a boat to race under NAMBA/IMPBA rules, or are you trying to replace a 45 nitro motor with an electric power plant? After the success of the P spec classes, we have been working on Q spec as a 45 nitro replacement. See the discussion in the outboard section. So far we have equaled or exceeded the speeds of the nitro motors at lower power plant cost. The secret is controlling the current to avoid the speed controller failures pictured. You can also use a lot less expensive equipment.

By the way, we just tested two P monos with the Castle ICE 200 controllers fitted with water cooling. They recorded current draws of over 200 amps and spikes to 300 amps without failure even though one of us locked up a motor. The Neu motors will stand these currents, but many others won't.

Lohring Miller

 

[hugh hargett]

The question is are you building a boat to race under NAMBA/IMPBA rules, or are you trying to replace a 45 nitro motor with an electric power plant? After the success of the P spec classes, we have been working on Q spec as a 45 nitro replacement. See the discussion in the outboard section. So far we have equaled or exceeded the speeds of the nitro motors at lower power plant cost. The secret is controlling the current to avoid the speed controller failures pictured. You can also use a lot less expensive equipment.

By the way, we just tested two P monos with the Castle ICE 200 controllers fitted with water cooling. They recorded current draws of over 200 amps and spikes to 300 amps without failure even though one of us locked up a motor. The Neu motors will stand these currents, but many others won't.

Lohring Miller

You were lucky to lock up a motor and not damage the esc. Again I think the castle esc's do well with NEU or CASTLE motors. Hydros of this size and class shouldnt be seeing 300 amps though. The t180 can burst 360 amps for 5 to 10 seconds. Thats a fair amount of time to see an amp burst. 360 amps continuous would be rediculous and way outside what would be expected.Im not pulling those kinds of amps in a 40 inch offshore mono.With the slip of a rigger as compared to a mono if it pulled more than 180amps continuous id be worried.Severely over amping a motor creates big heat . Think about a 10 watt solderig iron . At 6 s it would take only 396ma over the usable amperage draw of the motor to produce that same heating effect.@ 10 amps over at 6 s would be equivalent to a 252 watt iron.Most of us run water because we dont look at the motors in terms of rms power instead of peak power which assumes max usable amps,Therfore abusing the motors basically.This is why I found the rules i looked at as far as motor limits was kind of wimpy because you really need a motor that is your max hp after you divided it by the square root of two. EX: if the motor is rated at 3000 watts peak then its rms power is 2,121 watts.For an true 3000 watts of efficient power you need a max of 4,242 watts. If you look at it this way you can see why a NUE or A Castle would stand out. Their peak power is so much that they can typically provide the user what he needs without a struggle.

Just my take on things.

I was conused when looking at the namba spec classes. Whats the current motor size, cell limit, and hull length for p-spec for q-spec boats?

Lohring can we see the datalog snapshots on the castle ice's? What motor did you lock up?

 

[lohring]

Brian Buaas locked up his Leopard motor. Neither of us saved the logged data. So far the Turnigy 180 has been very reliable on 6S. While P limited is an official NAMBA class, there is no Q spec class. We are researching some possibilities.

Lohring Miller

 

[lohring]

Speed is all about power and power is amps times volts. If you limit the volts, more current means more power. The limit on current is how much you want to spend on a motor and speed control since the 10,000 mah batteries NAMBA rules allow now could provide 500 to 900 amps or more, especially under SAW conditions. If you have any good ideas on a rule system that limits current, let me know. The Europeans use battery weight and the spec classes limit motor choice, but neither directly limits current. Limiting boat length is the silliest way to do this anyone has tried so far.

Lohring Miller

 

[hugh hargett]

Ive been eyeing a neu 1527 1d but I dont know if its legal for p hydro. I think voltage limits is the right way coz when you limit it you will have to draw more amps for the same power. All thats dictated by prop and hull adjustments etc,which to me make it racing. The most sucessful fe racers should be the ones with the most knowledge to extract what they want out of a particular setup. If you make too many rules it becomes like an IROC event.Thats cool but we should always leave room for racing where equipment selection and setup know how play a part in it. Im a little confused though coz when I looked at the rulebook I thought it said motors must be no more than 40mm in diameter and around 60mm in length. School me ;what is is spec limits on a p motor?

 

[lohring]

The current NAMBA electric rules are listed here:

http://www.namba.com/content/library/rules/rulebook_update_2011-2.pdf

So far the limited class, P limited, allows only listed motors. Some other classes also allow only specific motors. The open classes allow any motor, and the larger classes also allow any number of motors. Hull length is limited for all the classes so the smaller classes are greatly overpowered by the unlimited motors. Actually, a real T hydro would need a bigger hull than the 60" the safety rules allow since it could have over 45 horsepower with the currently available batteries. You just need a motor and speed control that can handle 1200 amps. The limited motors match the length classifications at the current state of development. However, length is a poor way to limit power. As an example, the same boat holds all the sport hydro two lap speed records from N-2 to Q.

Lohring Miller

 

[fletch51]

I ran it for 2 minutes total without any problems(about 10 smallish laps).

according to the data logger: it never went over 150 amps and the average amp draw at full song seems like 130 amps.

Voltage never went below 20 volts, and the run consumed 3300mAh

Immediately after the run ESC was warm, and the battery warmer to the touch.

water jacket on motor was approaching hot and the armature stem at the endbell was fairly hot.

My biggest concern is the Castle 6.5mm bullet connectors between the battery's 12ga wires and the ESC's 8ga wires were hot. definetley hotter than they should be. I'm certain that is causing unnecessary loss. The 6.5mm bullets between ESC and motor were almost as hot too.

Battery is Flightpower 6S1P 5000mAh (50C, 100C burst)

ESC is Castle ICE 240 (timing set at 10 degrees)

Motor is Leopard 4082 1450kV (4 pole 12 slot stator)

 

[hugh hargett]

I ran it for 2 minutes total without any problems(about 10 smallish laps).

according to the data logger: it never went over 150 amps and the average amp draw at full song seems like 130 amps.

Voltage never went below 20 volts, and the run consumed 3300mAh

Immediately after the run ESC was warm, and the battery warmer to the touch.

water jacket on motor was approaching hot and the armature stem at the endbell was fairly hot.

My biggest concern is the Castle 6.5mm bullet connectors between the battery's 12ga wires and the ESC's 8ga wires were hot. definetley hotter than they should be. I'm certain that is causing unnecessary loss. The 6.5mm bullets between ESC and motor were almost as hot too.

Battery is Flightpower 6S1P 5000mAh (50C, 100C burst)

ESC is Castle ICE 240 (timing set at 10 degrees)

Motor is Leopard 4082 1450kV (4 pole 12 slot stator)

Is that the proper timing setting for the leo?What about your pwm switching frequency?Some video would be nice too.

 

[lohring]

I use 8 mm bullets with full P power setups on both the battery and motor leads. If you are running two packs I run 5.5 mm connectors from the packs into the 8 mm connectors on the speed control. 5.5 mm connectors are fine for lower currents.

Lohring Miller

 

[fletch51]

PWM is not user-adjustable and according to Castle Creations tech is 12,000. He also said the 10 degree is a good setting for this Leo motor.

I ran it today(saturday), and I had a video camera and radar gun, but couldn't find anybody to point them at the boat.

Runs went fine and I tried two other props, both bigger than the x450 that I have been using. I know I need to try smaller but the next props smaller that I have are WAY smaller. I know very little about props, but I have a feeling this boat needs more battery and bigger motor.

some results according to data logger with differnet props.

when I state an average it is an eyeball guestimation of the Data Logger graphs because before and after runs there is a lot of 0 amps, 0 rpms etc, that effect Data Loggers calculation of the average.

40 second run with x450: WOT average amp draw is about 125a, WOT RPM average 26,500 , 1100mAh consumed, ESC temp before and after was 98 and 125, WOT avg watts 2800w, speed looked ok, and acceleration looks very good

40 second run with x452: WOT avg amps 150a, WOT avg RPM 25,000, 1300mah consumed, temp 115 to 150, WOT avg watts 3300w, speed looked good, but boat just didnt seem strong.

15 second run with 1450 (mod 49mm , 3.4 cup): WOT amps went down throughout the run from 120 to 80, same with watts from 2700 to 1700, but RPM avg was 27,500. boat seemed to struggle for power, so I brought it in early.

 

[fletch51]

I know, it's an eyefull, but this is the data of a run with the x450 on a fully charged battery.

RPM's are doubled because I'm using a 4 pole motor and logger is pre-set assuming a 2 pole.

I purposefully let off the throttle significantly three times as to make a marker on the graph to help figure out what areas in time are turns and what areas are straitaways. I let off the throttle at about 3/4 down the straightaway on each of those throttle downs.