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This thread content was accidentally deleted instead of one post that was to be removed. Unfortunately there is no way to "un-delete" it so the actual thread is gone but the fortunately it's author Sean had it saved as a Word doc and he sent it to me. The following content is a read only post for reference to the thread. Quotes within replies, sig lines, etc. have been removed to help save space.........
#1 SeanKewley
Posted 22 December 2010 - 09:42 PM
Should the IMPBA and NAMBA change their policies to make it easier for new model power boaters to get interested in the hobby?... i.e. Not requiring them to purchase a full year membership prior to being able to run their RTR boat at a club pond?
#2 RaceCraftBearings
Posted 22 December 2010 - 09:46 PM
Sean insurance is a must should anything happen.
#3 mike walker
Posted 22 December 2010 - 09:57 PM
Most of the time a new person has ran there boat in private ponds enough to already have a good idea they like it. But when you get around others to play or race you gotta cover your rear. Thats just what I think
#4 Drew2
Posted 22 December 2010 - 10:21 PM
xxxxxxxxxxxx
#5 Hydro Junkie
Posted 22 December 2010 - 10:31 PM
I think you need to be more specific as to what policies you're refering to. I'm not sure if you are referring to requiring membership before running at a sanctioned event or if you mean something else
#6 Don Ferrette
Posted 22 December 2010 - 10:49 PM
The cost of an annual IMPBA membership amounts to about 17 cents a day to protect the member and the organization, pretty cheap I'd say. In these times of litigation and lawsuits good insurance coverage is a must. What happens if this same "newbie" hurts someone? The coverage is a necessary evil but it has to happen, NO exceptions.
#7 julianconde
Posted 22 December 2010 - 10:53 PM
I agree my italian friend
#8 Joe W
Posted 22 December 2010 - 11:03 PM
I agree with Don & Ron about the insurance. It is a MUST HAVE! There should not be a single boat or boater on the water without it. We all share the burden of the membership & the cost insuranace. Be Responsible pay the dues & have some fun!!!! Everyone else already has......
#9 mark jr
Posted 22 December 2010 - 11:13 PM
how about being able to buy 6 months instead of a full year, for us poor snow covered states. and no im not complaning $60 a year is still cheap for the coverage you get.
#10 Blackout
Posted 23 December 2010 - 05:46 AM
The SCCA started doing weekend memberships a couple years ago to promote Solo racing. The insurance cost is around $15 for the weekend and the driver is covered under the SCCA insurance for only that race weekend. In the long run it's cheaper for the person to get the full membership, but it gives someone the chance to try out the sport first. The IMPBA could do something similar.
#11 SayMikey
Posted 23 December 2010 - 06:42 AM
Whats most important is the newbie reading the basic rules.IE dont throw a boat in the water with dogs or people in it. Safety is a must even insurance wont cover someone not following rules. This is another reason joining and buddying up with seasoned boaters makes sense. For the price of 2 gallons of fuel you can be covered.....
#12 Mike Hughes
Posted 23 December 2010 - 08:18 AM
NAMBA has something for the one day racer all ready. For $10 you get the full coverage for the duration of the event. This works great if the IMPBA guys want to go to our nats or a smaller district race oncce in a while. The only problem is it can only be used once a year. If you do want to race again after you have done the $10 event fee. That amound will go towards your $45 fee. So it will only cost $35 the next race you go to. You must pay the full $35 the second time.
#13 Mark Poole ModVP
Posted 23 December 2010 - 09:33 AM
Requiring new members to put up the full membership fee and join for a year adds credibility to the organizations. It makes people who are interested realize that even though this is a hobby, it is also a motor sport. Fact is, if you make something easier or cheaper to get into then here comes the "irresponsibles". I don't want to be racing against a weekend warrior who has not read the rule book.
#14 GeorgiaScaleBoater
Posted 23 December 2010 - 09:55 AM
IMPBA has the same thing also, but I believe can be used multiple times per year.
Onlt thing I would like to see IMPBA adopt, is covering you any time, anywhere, you are running boats.
Not at just registered ponds.
#15 griz2575
Posted 23 December 2010 - 10:03 AM
I think if you could get a weekend membership or a half year membership more people would try out boating.
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#16 Rigged
Posted 23 December 2010 - 10:07 AM
IMPBA has the same thing also, but I believe can be used multiple times per year.
Onlt thing I would like to see IMPBA adopt, is covering you any time, anywhere, you are running boats. Not at just registered ponds.
+1. Being where im located, 100+ miles from any IMPBA sanctioned pond, pretty much all my testing is done at my home lake 15min away. The NAMBA policy is great for that covering you anywhere you run, but god forbid something were to happen.. how are you gonna prove all safety rules were being followed?
#17 Don Ferrette
Posted 23 December 2010 - 10:24 AM
Incorrect, it is also a ONE TIME ONLY deal-
SECTION 3 - Non-Member Coverage
The insurance does not cover any person who is not a paid member of IMPBA regardless of what
other club or organization he may belong. Paid members of other boating organizations may pay a one time $10.00 fee for membership dues during that event only. The application and payment must be mailed by the host club to the Executive Office of IMPBA the first working day after accepted. Therefore no person may operate or assist in the operation of a model power boat, or enter the pit area, or operate a retrieve boat at any IMPBA sanctioned event on an IMPBA insured pond, and be covered by this insurance, unless he is a paid member of IMPBA.
#18 mark jr
Posted 23 December 2010 - 10:41 AM
ok most of that is easy to understand. if your in namba and want to race a impba race then you will have to pay $10 for that race and your only covered for that race with the $10. but can it be used more than once? its not that clear and could go both ways.
#19 Don Ferrette
Posted 23 December 2010 - 10:45 AM
It is crystal clear, one time only.
#20 mark jr
Posted 23 December 2010 - 10:57 AM
well its not really cyrstal clear lol. the way it sates if its only once then you could only use it once in you life???
#21 Rigged
Posted 23 December 2010 - 11:02 AM
as clear as mud
#22 Don Ferrette
Posted 23 December 2010 - 11:05 AM
Whatever. The question has been answered.
#23 RaceCraftBearings
Posted 23 December 2010 - 11:11 AM
The following are policies offered by both NAMBA and IMPBA for One Time Event Fees.
The way it looks to me in NAMBA you are getting Insurance for that Event and can only do a One Time Fee once, the next event you go to in the same calendar year you will have to pay the remainder of the Membership fee to race and also become a Full Member of NAMBA for that year.
The NAMBA One Time Event Policy:
This application and the payment of $10.00 must be sent to the NAMBA office by the host club
or district immediately following the event. Insurance is valid for the dates of the event only and
on the site indicated.
Single event insurance may only be used once in any calendar year by a specific individual.
Should that individual desire to participate in a second event in a calendar year, a full
membership will be required. The single event fee paid at one event will be credited to the
price of a full membership should that membership be consummated within the same
calendar year.
IMPBA is a bit Confusing but the best I can gather is that you DO NOT get insurance by doing a One Time Event Fee. I have been members of both and have never used a One time event fee so I am not sure but I would hope your NAMBA Insurance would cover you at this IMPBA Event?
IMPBA Policy:
IMPBA BY-LAWS
CHAPTER I MEMBERSHIP
H. Paid members of other boating organizations may pay $10.00 for a one-time membership,
allowing running in that event only. The application and payment must be mailed to the
IMPBA office by the host club the first working day after accepted.
INSURANCE
SECTION 3 - Non Member Coverage
The insurance does not cover any person who is not a paid member of IMPBA regardless of what
other club or organization he may belong. Paid members of other boating organizations may pay a
one time $10.00 fee for membership dues during that event only. The application and payment
must be mailed by the host club to the Executive Office of IMPBA the first working day after
accepted.
Therefore no person may operate or assist in the operation of a model power boat, or enter the pit
area, or operate a retrieve boat at any IMPBA sanctioned event on an IMPBA insured pond, and be
covered by this insurance, unless he is a paid member of IMPBA.
This part confuses me the most as above it states that the insurance does not cover anyone who is not a paid member of IMPBA, you may pay a one time fee for membership dues during that event only (Not Insurance). Therefore I am a Paid member for this event only so I can only assume that I may do all those things listed in the part I underlined and why do I not get insurance or do I ?
I have been told that you can do multiple One Time Eevnt Fees in IMPBA until you have paid a Full membership and get your card.
#24 Don Ferrette
Posted 23 December 2010 - 11:22 AM
Well perhaps it's time for a re-write of that section of the IMPBA rule if there really are that many people who seem to not understand it but personally I think it's more of some just trying to skirt paying for a full membership. In all the years I've been an IMPBA member it has always been clear to me as well as others at any of the IMPBA races I have attended in that a paid member of another organization can use it one time in a calendar year.
#25 DON MAHER
Posted 23 December 2010 - 11:22 AM
The "ONE TIME" deal does not apply to this thread because you must be a "PAID MEMBER OF ANOTHER BOATING ORGANIZATION"
#26 RaceCraftBearings
Posted 23 December 2010 - 11:28 AM
If your talking about IMPBA you appear to be correct however with NAMBA there is no stipulation that you have to be a member of another org. NAMBA One Time gives you Insurance coverage for that event. Does IMPBA give you Insurance coverage for a One Time Eevnt if I am a NAMBA or APBA member?
#27 mark jr
Posted 23 December 2010 - 11:29 AM
thank you thats what i wanted to know. im not trying to be funny or a jerk just wanted to get it straight.
#28 SeanKewley
Posted 23 December 2010 - 11:58 AM
I’m not necessarily talking about allowing a potential new boater to run at a sanctioned event. As it stands currently, a potential new boater is not even allowed to run their boat at a club pond on a non-race day without a NAMBA/IMPBA membership. For example, if I invite someone who has expressed an interest in the hobby to our club pond, they can’t even put their boat in the water without first buying a full year membership to NAMBA or IMPBA. The purpose behind the thread is to see if others are concerned about the same thing, and what if any changes could be made to allow for a more gradual introduction to the hobby without first laying down a full year national organization membership before they even get started.
#29 RaceCraftBearings
Posted 23 December 2010 - 12:11 PM
As a Club they have to take that position in order to stay free from liability.
In my area there are many club members who run boats at a non Club lake and we welcome anyone to join us membership or not. We do tell them of the safety concerns and they are welcome to run with us if they abide by those. If they then want to attend a club function then thats when we tell them they need to be a NAMBA Member in order to do that.
#30 Tony Jacuzzi
Posted 23 December 2010 - 04:15 PM
For our club http://southernontar...b.moonfruit.com no one runs on the water without an IMPBA membership. Thats the promise we made to the Township owners and we hold to it 100%, sounds selfish but I would not risk losing our water for any stranger, that doesnt want to pay. Our club welcomes new members but only if they comply with our rules and the IMPBA's, additionally all of our members are on a one year probation for the first year to avoid any high maintenance individuals.
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#31 SayMikey
Posted 23 December 2010 - 05:46 PM
Sean perhaps you should pose this question to the land owner. Or go to a car dealer and ask if you can drive a car around the block without a drivers license or insurance. A little over the top but valid. Its not a question or whos going to hurt someone its who will pay if it happens....Mike
#32 Jeremy Linney
Posted 23 December 2010 - 06:07 PM
Simple solution, don't run on a club pond. There are plenty of lakes, ponds, etc. all over the place. Go and run your boat there. But if something does happen, no one on this site wants to hear about the lawsuit that will probably follow the accident. Not trying to be a jerk but there is always an option. We are in a time where lawyers will take some pretty ridiculous cases and under some of these vague laws we have, they will win. Protect yourself at all costs. I have raced offroad RC cars and trucks for years without insurance but have always felt a little uneasy doing so as I have seen some pretty serious injuries caused by careless drivers, mostly to corner marshalls. It is ultimately your decision in what you do, but changing laws that help protect responsible modelers is not the best avenue.
#33 SeanKewley
Posted 23 December 2010 - 06:36 PM
This is not about me. I am a member of the IMPBA, NAMBA, and the AMA. It is about the new potential model boaters out there. This hobby is a dying one when compared to airplanes, helis, and cars. It just seems to me that we might be able to get more people interested in it if we didn't require them to buy a fullmembership to a national organization when they aren't even sure if it is something they are going to like. How much smaller does the model boat community have to get before people start to discuss feasible options?
In regards to liability. None of the above mentioned organizations cover everything. Take the AMA for example. I know of an airplane pilot who was at a sanctioned AMA event, was an AMA member and still got sued. His home owners insurance had to cover it as the AMA didn't do anything for him. If you are liable, you are liable. Having a membership in these organizations doesn't matter if you can't prove that you were following the rules they set forth. I am not trashing our beloved IMPBA or NAMBA, I am asking reasonable questions about how we MIGHT improve upon existing policies to help foster the hobby by bringing in new boaters. Equating playing with toy boats to driving a car without a drivers license is an over the top comparison. Clearly I am not the only person who is concerned about this.
#34 SeanKewley
Posted 23 December 2010 - 06:54 PM
Perhaps a reduced membership fee for a 3 month period. That would allow the new boater to get their feet wet with the hobby, cost them less, and hopefully lead to them becoming a full fledge member. The AMA is doing something similar. They have a "PARK PILOT" membership for half the cost of the full membership.
#35 SayMikey
Posted 23 December 2010 - 07:29 PM
I agree with this statement but to be insured for IMPBA it has to be on insured water. Supervision is the key,Sean boater numbers will never be what the rest are. Simply stated a remote control boat is a maintenance hog.
#36 Bill Gibson
Posted 23 December 2010 - 07:30 PM
Sean, i respectfully disagree with your statement about model boating dying in numbers when compared to aircraft and cars....ive been involved in model boating for 30+ years, along with R/C planes, helis, and cars, and i far back as i can remember, we boaters have always been the fewest in numbers compared to other forms of R/C...its the nature of the beast simply when it comes to personal interest and availability of products.In fact, due to the progress of Gas and FE boats, there are probably more boaters in numbers than there's ever been...they just might not belong to any organization to be counted officially....i REMEMBER the days when my buddies and i could easily find a pond for boats, or a field to fly planes and helis, or a track to run cars, and NOBODY cared...until some moron figured out a way to make easy money by filing a lawsuit...THOSE DAYS ARE GONE...SADLY! I probably have said(complained) more than anybody about the cost of boats and boat racing, but i cant help but feel that if someone is willing to spend 300 to 1500 dollars for a toy boat to run/race, then surely they can cough up 50 to 60 dollars a year to cover thier asses...comparing R/C boating to other forms of the hobby is kinda like comparing apples to oranges and most likely will always be that way....we're kind of a "special" group of CRAZIES, i guess!
#37 misshydro
Posted 24 December 2010 - 09:57 AM
I'm sort of up in the air about it.. But I think they Both IMPBA AND NAMBA both should have the same rules on boats!! I dont like the idea when a BOAT is legal to race for NAMBA and illegal to run in IMPBA and the other way around too..
#38 SeanKewley
Posted 24 December 2010 - 10:39 AM
If NAMBA and the IMPBA could do something similar to the AMA’s “Park Pilot” membership I think that would be a step in the right direction. My airplane club has gained 6 new members over the last year that got started under the Park Pilot membership program. The AMA’s park pilot membership cost half the price of a full membership, provides them with less insurance coverage, they have no voting privileges, and it limits the type of models that they can fly i.e. “aircraft must not exceed 2 pounds, 60 mph, and may not be powered with an internal combustion engine”. IMPBA and NAMBA could call it an “entry level” membership and provide them with limited insurance coverage on insured water only, restrict them to smaller RTR size boats that have limited speed, and they would not have voting privileges.
#39 john v
Posted 24 December 2010 - 12:40 PM
if you get a new boater who is going to ***** about 45$ for namba or 60$ for impba then tell him he is in the wrong hobby
#40 jetpack
Posted 24 December 2010 - 02:25 PM
It would be nice if all insurance was paid through the AMA or at least one organization where if you are an R/C'er, one yearly payment for being one. Boat, Air, Surface...
Three different branches doesn't make much sense, it is not like they compete on prices.
I fly as well as boat and have to pay two different organizations. Shouldn't I be covered year round under ONE policy? I'm only a seasonal one, too. We have winters.
#41 Roxyflash
Posted 24 December 2010 - 03:04 PM
Good topic cost the newbie in are pond 90 bucks they have to join IMPBA and club dues.Seen many go down the road and never return.They still run but not at are pond.Are club is dying.Not sure what the real answer is.The Gas and FE has made no differance in are area.
#42 SeanKewley
Posted 24 December 2010 - 03:49 PM
That is one way of looking at it. It is also the same argument the govt uses when they want to raise our taxes. For example... When a state wants to raise the DMV registration by $60 they justify it by saying that if you can afford a $30000 vehicle then you can afford to pay an additional $60 per year for plates.
#43 Bill Gibson
Posted 24 December 2010 - 06:18 PM
Sean, im 100% for ANYTHING that would make this hobby more affordable, but as harsh as it may sound, john v makes a very good point...if someone wants to get involved in any hobby that involves any potential risk to others or property,and is willing to invest 400 to 2000 dollars in the equipment it takes to partake in that hobby, than why would anyone not be willing to spend 45 to 60 dollars a YEAR to protect themself and the hobby as well...how small of a percentage are we talking here? It makes absolutly NO sence what so ever NOT TO! I so wish that we lived in a perfect world and didnt need it, but thats simply not the case....for what its worth, i know several people that fly elecric R/C planes and helis and they have no insurance what so ever, and they're STUPID enough to think that because the aircraft they fly is electric, they cant injure anyone with it, so they dont need to belong to the AMA....
#44 Drew2
Posted 24 December 2010 - 06:37 PM
The insurance issue is mute- It WONT and CANT change period/and shouldnt. Pony up and pay or dont play- As harsh as that is - it is - for the safety of all
Not to get off topic- BUT How bout a little real holiday meat and potatoes when it comes to NAMBA and IMPBA - It would sure be nice to see some class unification and a little more willingness to work toward a "common goal" as National Organizations
A willingness to make all the class offered by both sanctions uniform in order to promote the hobby on a national level no matter what sanction you joined or what boat you chose to run or where you chose to run it Lets face it , we all do this for the same reason - hopefully - no matter where or what you run . Merry Christmas and Happy New Years guys and gals-
#45 SeanKewley
Posted 24 December 2010 - 08:34 PM
Where in this statement do you see me advocating that people don't pay for coverage? Let me pose this question... Why do you think the AMA decided to offer a reduced membership initiative like the Park Pilot membership?
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#46 glenng
Posted 24 December 2010 - 08:36 PM
Bill, We just started a new club in Utah this last year and lucky me got appionted safety officer. The club Prez and I butted heads over EVERYONE being NAMBA members and having insurance. He did not want to scare off potential members and I did not want anyone to get hurt or lose the lake. I resigned as saftey officer. All we could afford last year was 300' of the orange safety netting- not enough to cover the coarse and the X monos would punch right thru it. The County owns the lake. If anyone sued the county????????????????? Guess what- NO LAKE! Just my .02 cents.
#47 anthony_marquart
Posted 24 December 2010 - 09:55 PM
I voted on this and I think it should be made easier. Weekend race passes would be great.
When I saw the votes showing that people don't think that we should make it easier to race, I was shocked. This hobby is expensive. I am always scraping together cash just to build boats. Paying a year membership to run in 2 or 3 races doesn't make much sense in my case. If we want to promote our hobby we need to target more than just the "highly compensated" group. and remember,.. this is just my opinion..
#48 Drew2
Posted 24 December 2010 - 10:07 PM
I have sat out races because I couldnt pay my dues- is what it is Anthony , period.
If you cant afford to pay your yearly dues- you need to find your own pond-
IT HAS NOTHING to do with $$ or arrogance - trust me .
I have neither, including tact............
#49 anthony_marquart
Posted 24 December 2010 - 10:11 PM
I have to add,.. to the people that say, "you spent $$$ on your toy,, another $60 should be nothing",.. This is the same premise that gets us the inheritance tax,.. and democrats adding billions of dollars in ear marks to every bell they pass.. Some kids saves for months and buys a RTR at the LHS, spends his lunch money on a quart of fuel,.. then learns he can't even run the boat with the guys he looks up to..
Weekend race passes are a very good idea. This WILL promote the hobby. IMO
#50 Roxyflash
Posted 25 December 2010 - 08:36 AM
For kids that have no backing from there folks it can be tuff.I ran one race and tested twice this year.Still got my dues paided.I did have help from some club members for my club dues.When they had the lifetime membership offered i wished i had the extra cash at that time pay it once and forget about it.Maybe they could do that again.That was a great deal.Now its time to renew again.
#51 D.Smock
Posted 25 December 2010 - 11:09 AM
Perhaps the best (easiest) answer would be for clubs to let interested parties to contribute to a fund that could be used to sponsor, or partially sponsor potential new racers.
I wouldn't have a problem giving to the cause if we had that problem here.
This could work well and wouldn't burden the sactioning bodys. Just my .02
#52 Bill Gibson
Posted 25 December 2010 - 11:45 AM
Weekend race passes are a very good idea. This WILL promote the hobby. IMO
Im no fan of the government, but this issue has nothing to do with that issue...there was a time in this country when we did something very simple..WE LIVED WITHIN OUR MEANS...if you cant afford, it then you CANT do it untill you can! In this day and age, show me the "kid" you are describing, and ill be the FIRST one to try and help that kid out!! And believe me my friend, i am NOT among those who are "highly compensated....this has little to do with that so called "kid" your talking about...and let me say it again, im ALL for making this hobby more affordable, but 45 to 60 bucks a year for insurance aint gonna change a thing! A family of 4 can piss that amount away for one night at the movies....
#53 SeanKewley
Posted 25 December 2010 - 12:12 PM
All ideas are welcome. And that seems like a reasonable one, IF people actually do that in their clubs. However, judging from the vote responses and the commentary, the majority doesn’t see any issue with the status quo. I guess that the growth or lack thereof, is a non issue. Are the membership statistics for IMPBA and NAMBA public to members? If so, could someone point me in their direction? I would be interested to see the growth trends for each organization over the last 10 years. I had not realized that participation in race events was so good elsewhere.
#54 Bill Gibson
Posted 25 December 2010 - 12:29 PM
Sean, the last time i looked at the entries for the Orlando Winter Nats in January, its around 450 boats....i dont remember if there were ever that many boats entered before....i would, as you would love to see growth of the hobby EVERYWHERE! It simply makes a great hobby even better!
#55 bzubee
Posted 25 December 2010 - 10:39 PM
I guess you shoouldn't have to pay for the movies either if you sneak in or the green's fee if you want to play GOLF. Also no need to have liabiliy insurance for the car you drive to get to the lake right? If you play you gotta pay!
#56 mark jr
Posted 26 December 2010 - 12:40 AM
ok then heres an idea you run a two day pass for thoughs that whant to try it ,you could even go as far as say this can only be used once every 4-5 years. charge like $10-$20 after thoughs two days are up make them buy a full year and put the $10-$20 tord it.....no this should not be for a larg event, club level only like a test and tune day...... this can give them a chance to meet some club members and run there boat in a race seting. and if your worried about rules of the club or impba or namba then have somone sit down and tell them what they need to know and after make then take a small test, and if they fail make them come back the next week and take it agin.it comes down to no one will pay good monney to play when they have no idea of what there geting into, they may not like the members,they may not like the race seting,or they may love it and say im in. its kind of like buying a new car you would not buy it if you could not drive it first right???????????????????? or beter yet make them buy a full year right out of the gate and give them two weeks to make up there mind if they dont like it refund what they didnt use its what 16 cents a day.
#57 HTV Boats
Posted 26 December 2010 - 09:36 AM
Making it easy for someone to "try" racing is flat out a mistake that will cost us all. Promote the hobby with quality clubs and events that will draw people and give them their moneys worth. I have seen many guys come and go over the years an the real quality people and racers stick no matter what the obstacles are. A lot of us wish we could do things we can't afford but live within our means. I don't believe here are too many kids not eating lunchs at school so they can buy nitro. When I built my first boat I ran it at small ponds and on the lake I lived on but could not use the local RC clubs pond till I joined both the local and national organization. Just is what it is if your serious you'll do it. When I got involved working in that club I saw many guys come out once and never saw them again or people who wanted an exeption just to try it. They never stuck around. If it's in your blood you'll race. From the insurance side I know first hand how the system works. When you look for companies to take a risk and the word "racing" is in the first sentence your going to have to prove your organiation has a structured proceedure for safety pertaining to your particular hazards. Your past claims record, how much exposure and what your doing to mitigate future accidents decide the rates you pay. Your only negotiatng tool is procedures and enforcement within your organization. If you say "by the way we encourage inexperienced racers and kid by subsidizing them and reducing their fees" watch the underwrters face as he throws your paperwork in the trash. This is the real world and if you want to help new racers and wind up paying yearly dues of two and three hundred dollars a years thats what the outcome will be. If dues went up $30 next year people would scream bloody murder.
Local clubs that can host 3 races a year and fun runs are great but to race 4-10 time a year you find yourself traveling adding big expenses that make race fees small in comparison. Actual insurance cost are dollars well spent compared to trophys and awards that collect dust and get thrown in the trash eventually. May be the biggest cost in fees that no one addresses. Have a great holiday season and see you a the races. Sorry for the reality check.
#58 SeanKewley
Posted 26 December 2010 - 10:09 AM
I respect your opinion, and I believe that many others here agree with that 100%, but that is a pretty elitist statement. If that is the real reason that the majority is against a reduced membership initiative then there are bigger problems than the cost of entry into the hobby/sport.
#59 Mark Poole ModVP
Posted 26 December 2010 - 10:33 AM
I cannot agree with that being an "elitist" statement. There is simply NOTHING elitist about $50 a year for insurance coverage to participate in a hobby/motorsport. I used to race life size boats and sometimes I want to think that it became elitist because of the huge expense that it now takes to race. But, if you look at the history of the sport the cost went up because of the increase in safety equipment and practices that have saved countless lives. If (yeah if)I had the money I would race F1/Champ class now that they have capsules. If fewer American families can afford things like RC boating (on sanctioned water) then that is just a sign of the times and the way it is. As far as making it more affordable, did you miss the threads on the JAE riggers? I can see a dad and his son spending time with a set of these plans and building a boat for very little $$.
#60 Mark Poole ModVP
Posted 26 December 2010 - 10:43 AM
I see a disturbing "trend" underlining this thread. Think about this, the worse our economy gets and the more people that have less money then those of us that hang on to what we like to do makes us look "elite". I am not rich nor elite. The thought of a poorer person seeing me as elite is a dangerous social influence brought to you by Big Brother.
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#61 Don Ferrette
Posted 26 December 2010 - 10:45 AM
What Mic posted is on the mark and you need to pay attention to everything he wrote. Some of you have NO CLUE how difficult it is to obtain any type of insurance when you include the word RACING. Being a long time member of the IMPBA BOD I know first hand what we go through each year to insure our members as well as those who own the properties we use and the spectators who might attend are properly protected. It's this type of approach that has had people coming to us over the last few years to hold races. A couple council members from Hobart went to an out of town race, sought out Stu and Bruce and asked what it would take to get us to come race there, it is now one of if not the best race in the country with direct city involvement. I personally was contacted 2 weeks ago by an individual involved with the city of Richmond offering up a place for us to practice and hold a race as well as wanting to know what they could do to assist us. The location was stellar with easy access, plenty of room and parking with hotels close by but unfortunately the park area they had in might was just too small water wise. If we were a bunch of rag tag people playing with tug boats I'm sure things would far cheaper but we are RACERS and a vast majority of the monies we take in from membership dues PAYS FOR OUR INSURANCE, that is the bottom line. There is nothing "elitist" about what Mic wrote, rather it is simply the cold, hard facts so DEAL WITH IT!! I'm really growing tired of the few people constantly bitching over the fees of membership, if you don't like it then perhaps you should try something cheaper like bowling. Sorry if this pisses a few of you off but if you want to be mad at someone, go be mad at the lawyers as they are the sole reason it is the way it is these days.
#62 Bill Gibson
Posted 26 December 2010 - 10:45 AM
I find it incredible that you find Mic's statement "elitist" in the least....if thats the case then what your trying to do could be considered somewhat "socialist" by any stretch of the imagination, if we're going to play political comparisions here...playing with model boats is an expensive hobby, but ive known people from ALL income levels that induldge in the hobby....those who are in lower levels simply live within thier means and do without in other areas of thier lives, because they want to stay involved in the hobby that much....thats how much they want to be a part of it..both you and Anthony have every right to express your views and thats cool, but when you make statements like the ones your making,you open yourselves up for responses like mine..its nothing personal...but the right to free speech works BOTH ways...
#63 HTV Boats
Posted 26 December 2010 - 11:23 AM
I take no offense to "elitist" as in all forms of racing that exists. Most racing comes down to wallet racing. I used to race full size and will tell you money outweights talent in most cases. Money can also buy talent, when internal resourses are short.
What were dealing with here is the crossover from a hobby to a sport. I think for guys like Don it's more a sport than a hobby or just an obsession. I want to get my grandkids involved but not till they can run a road course well with an electric car and show some dedication to the work involved in getting equipment ready and understand the strategy of a heat race. This has been a family event for me over the years but as eluded to "Race" becomes a serious contest at some point. It isn't just 4 lb RTR's going 30+ mph. A 16lb gasser at 55 mph can do some real damage. Bringing in new blood and ideas is a win win but there are going to be some minimum requirements.
#64 SeanKewley
Posted 26 December 2010 - 11:27 AM
There is no “disturbing trend” in this thread. It is simple discussion and debate. If that threatens some of you I apologize. I feel that this discussion has been very civil and relevant. I’m not angry, why are you? As I have said before, this is not about me, I am a member of IMPBA, NAMBA, and the AMA, and I understand their importance. You are preaching to the choir about their relevance to the hobby. If a reduced membership option like the AMA’s park pilot program is such a horrible idea, why did they institute it? Did they by chance see an opportunity to benefit their hobby by encouraging more people to become engaged at a lower cost of entry, while still having insurance coverage? Many of you keep professing that this is solely about racing. Perhaps not everyone who wants to play toy boats is interested in racing. Many don’t have access to public water and their only alternative is a club pond. A reduced membership initiative like theAMA’s Park Pilot membership could allow them to participate at a different level. I’m not taking any of this personal. I am in this hobby because it is fun. When things stop being fun, the hobby as a whole will suffer.
#65 SeanKewley
Posted 26 December 2010 - 12:11 PM
I would also like to add that it seems that some of you are implying that IMPBA and NAMBA membership is solely concerned around racing and racers? That is simply not the case. Last time I checked the hobby also included sail boaters, sport boaters, scale boaters, combat boaters, etc. Are any of you taking these folks into consideration when shooting down the ideas expressed here?
#66 SeanKewley
Posted 26 December 2010 - 12:32 PM
Well said. That was my intention with this thread. What would an “Entry Level” membership include? What limits would we place on this level of membership? What types of boats could these members run? What limited insurance coverage would they receive?
#67 Joe W
Posted 26 December 2010 - 12:46 PM
Many of us started @ uninsured - non registered lakes But you knew if you ran a boat out of the lake you inquired all of the risk too. Property damage (cars trks) or personal damage. AS many became more experienced & took notice there were organizations that were holding races. Many of us paid the dues & went to the legal organized races & events to compete with the others that shared the same interest. Both organizations already have entry level race classes. Locally a boater has to pay a local Club Membership fees to have access to the pond insured by IMPBA & Must Be a Paid Up Member of the IMPBA. it is the basics. IMPBA & NAMBA are about Legal Organized Racing. Many clubs have already obtained the Property & the Legal paper work for you to Enjoy you boat on..... many of us insure Personal Big Boats & Jet ski`s. Even though they Are Seasonally Used. You Must Pay Anually to have Any Coverage.
#68 Don Ferrette
Posted 26 December 2010 - 02:02 PM
Either you don't get it or you just don't want to hear it. It's not about the "racers" rather it is BECAUSE of the racing that things need to be as they are. The bottom line is this- if they want to participate "newbies" will need to pay normal membership dues like everyone else. This lame argument that the cost of the annual membership is turning away boaters is total hogwash, membership levels have been steadily increasing the last few years. Because we live in the age of liability and litigation things have to be the way we are. The AMA is fortunate enough through their sheer size that they can negotiate with insurance carriers to obtain the "sport" membership (do you know they have their own lobbyist on Capitol Hill?). We on the other hand being the smallest faction of r/c are often facing a "this is all we can offer you" situation. We've tried to look into this "entry level" thing before in the past, it's just not a viable option so let it go. Each year when we review our coverages and solicit insurance carriers we are lucky if we even have more than one or two to talk to let alone offer us any type of coverage. Entry level membership? Sure we have an entry level membership, pay your dues and you're in. Again, sorry if this is not what you want hear but that's life for now.
#69 SeanKewley
Posted 26 December 2010 - 03:54 PM
It is truly upsetting to hear you label this discussion as “lame” Don. I would have expected more from someone in a leadership role. This “lame” argument could help increase the membership numbers in both the IMPBA and NAMBA, thus increasing the size of the organization and its influence. Just because you say it is not possible, doesn’t mean that it can’t be done now or in the future. Do your beliefs reflect those of our elected officials in NAMBA and IMPBA? I hope not. If so, why would anyone other than racers want to join either organization? Especially considering your belief that those who don’t race need to pay up to subsidize those of us that do?
#70 Tom Foley
Posted 26 December 2010 - 04:10 PM
Sean ..this really is not just about racing ..anyone who wants to play boats at a sanctioed , insured lake must pay for membership . We have all had a kid , a friend , your wife or mine perhaps wants to try a boat out ...you simply have to go somewhere else and do it . If we want to run at an insured secured site , unfortunately you have to pay for membership . If I want to go AMA Roadracing even on a beginner level ..gotta pay . if I want to race Stock Outboards again ...have to pay . If I want to play video games online gotta pay 60.00 a month for internet access ..gotta pay . There it is ...gotta pay . Life is complicated and Model Boating will never be a Soccer League ..but ..they have to pay too , more than boat racers .
#71 glenng
Posted 26 December 2010 - 04:27 PM
Sean, Last year our club charged $15 membership fee and What was Namba last year? $45? And what did I do? I complained to the club prez. dues are too low to buy proper safety netting to protect spectators. I can help the newer guys by pitting for them, making parts for their boats, giving advice, loaning tools,pipes, props etc. What I will not do is risk loosing the closest running site to my home(35 miles away). I agree with Don- you whining is lame. What other hobby could you get into for $60?
Glenn
#72 El Zorro
Posted 26 December 2010 - 04:49 PM
Ever since I first became a member of IMPBA ( 1985 ) the subject of "entry level" membership or something along those lines has come up many times. And every time it was discussed by the IMPBA Board the discussion was the same..........read Mr. Ferrette's posts here and you will see why things are as they are. It is NOT EASY TO GET INSURANCE for any organization that involves RACING! When I was racing Stock Outboard hydroplanes in APBA a few years ago I was shocked to find out that for a weekend race sanction ( Saturday and Sunday ) and Friday open water the host club was required to pay APBA around $3,000. Then the host club had to pay for an ambulance to be on location for Saturday and Sunday ( you were on your own Friday ) which I think was about $400 or more EACH day. Most big boat clubs don't make any money on their races, but manage to survive by other means ( club dues, raffles, donations, etc. ). Doesn't sound very fair or reasonable, but these people want to race and that's just the way it is. Racing has risks, and you have to have insurance. IMPBA, NAMBA and APBA is 99.9% about racing. If someone doesn't want to be involved with the racing and just wants to run their model boat in a local pond, in my opinion, it is too much of a risk to take without being insured by one of the boating organizations. It is cheap insurance. If someone thinks that a years membership in IMPBA is too much to pay to run their model boat every year then I think they need to find another hobby.........
Dick Tyndall
#73 brandonclan
Posted 26 December 2010 - 05:04 PM
Maybe the ones who don't race and just want to play should find a pond and come up with thier own insurance policy?? After investigating insurance premiums and such, I bet they will agree, that the IMPBA and NAMBA registration fees that include insurance are a real bargain for the year!! Join a club with a sanctioned pond and join the national org. to have the insurance, you'll never have to worry about a place to run.
It's all about LIABILITY....and the cost of protecting all that is involved.
My .02
#74 Don Ferrette
Posted 26 December 2010 - 05:35 PM
I appreciate the support Mr. Tyndall but it has become painfully apparent that while Sean might read the posts he chooses not to listen to what they actually say because it's not what he wants to hear.
#75 Don Ferrette
Posted 27 December 2010 - 07:07 AM
I think this topic and it's "poll" has run it's course so time to put a fork in it.
#1 SeanKewley
Posted 22 December 2010 - 09:42 PM
Should the IMPBA and NAMBA change their policies to make it easier for new model power boaters to get interested in the hobby?... i.e. Not requiring them to purchase a full year membership prior to being able to run their RTR boat at a club pond?
#2 RaceCraftBearings
Posted 22 December 2010 - 09:46 PM
Sean insurance is a must should anything happen.
#3 mike walker
Posted 22 December 2010 - 09:57 PM
Most of the time a new person has ran there boat in private ponds enough to already have a good idea they like it. But when you get around others to play or race you gotta cover your rear. Thats just what I think
#4 Drew2
Posted 22 December 2010 - 10:21 PM
xxxxxxxxxxxx
#5 Hydro Junkie
Posted 22 December 2010 - 10:31 PM
I think you need to be more specific as to what policies you're refering to. I'm not sure if you are referring to requiring membership before running at a sanctioned event or if you mean something else
#6 Don Ferrette
Posted 22 December 2010 - 10:49 PM
The cost of an annual IMPBA membership amounts to about 17 cents a day to protect the member and the organization, pretty cheap I'd say. In these times of litigation and lawsuits good insurance coverage is a must. What happens if this same "newbie" hurts someone? The coverage is a necessary evil but it has to happen, NO exceptions.
#7 julianconde
Posted 22 December 2010 - 10:53 PM
I agree my italian friend
#8 Joe W
Posted 22 December 2010 - 11:03 PM
I agree with Don & Ron about the insurance. It is a MUST HAVE! There should not be a single boat or boater on the water without it. We all share the burden of the membership & the cost insuranace. Be Responsible pay the dues & have some fun!!!! Everyone else already has......
#9 mark jr
Posted 22 December 2010 - 11:13 PM
how about being able to buy 6 months instead of a full year, for us poor snow covered states. and no im not complaning $60 a year is still cheap for the coverage you get.
#10 Blackout
Posted 23 December 2010 - 05:46 AM
The SCCA started doing weekend memberships a couple years ago to promote Solo racing. The insurance cost is around $15 for the weekend and the driver is covered under the SCCA insurance for only that race weekend. In the long run it's cheaper for the person to get the full membership, but it gives someone the chance to try out the sport first. The IMPBA could do something similar.
#11 SayMikey
Posted 23 December 2010 - 06:42 AM
Whats most important is the newbie reading the basic rules.IE dont throw a boat in the water with dogs or people in it. Safety is a must even insurance wont cover someone not following rules. This is another reason joining and buddying up with seasoned boaters makes sense. For the price of 2 gallons of fuel you can be covered.....
#12 Mike Hughes
Posted 23 December 2010 - 08:18 AM
NAMBA has something for the one day racer all ready. For $10 you get the full coverage for the duration of the event. This works great if the IMPBA guys want to go to our nats or a smaller district race oncce in a while. The only problem is it can only be used once a year. If you do want to race again after you have done the $10 event fee. That amound will go towards your $45 fee. So it will only cost $35 the next race you go to. You must pay the full $35 the second time.
#13 Mark Poole ModVP
Posted 23 December 2010 - 09:33 AM
Requiring new members to put up the full membership fee and join for a year adds credibility to the organizations. It makes people who are interested realize that even though this is a hobby, it is also a motor sport. Fact is, if you make something easier or cheaper to get into then here comes the "irresponsibles". I don't want to be racing against a weekend warrior who has not read the rule book.
#14 GeorgiaScaleBoater
Posted 23 December 2010 - 09:55 AM
IMPBA has the same thing also, but I believe can be used multiple times per year.
Onlt thing I would like to see IMPBA adopt, is covering you any time, anywhere, you are running boats.
Not at just registered ponds.
#15 griz2575
Posted 23 December 2010 - 10:03 AM
I think if you could get a weekend membership or a half year membership more people would try out boating.
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#16 Rigged
Posted 23 December 2010 - 10:07 AM
IMPBA has the same thing also, but I believe can be used multiple times per year.
Onlt thing I would like to see IMPBA adopt, is covering you any time, anywhere, you are running boats. Not at just registered ponds.
+1. Being where im located, 100+ miles from any IMPBA sanctioned pond, pretty much all my testing is done at my home lake 15min away. The NAMBA policy is great for that covering you anywhere you run, but god forbid something were to happen.. how are you gonna prove all safety rules were being followed?
#17 Don Ferrette
Posted 23 December 2010 - 10:24 AM
Incorrect, it is also a ONE TIME ONLY deal-
SECTION 3 - Non-Member Coverage
The insurance does not cover any person who is not a paid member of IMPBA regardless of what
other club or organization he may belong. Paid members of other boating organizations may pay a one time $10.00 fee for membership dues during that event only. The application and payment must be mailed by the host club to the Executive Office of IMPBA the first working day after accepted. Therefore no person may operate or assist in the operation of a model power boat, or enter the pit area, or operate a retrieve boat at any IMPBA sanctioned event on an IMPBA insured pond, and be covered by this insurance, unless he is a paid member of IMPBA.
#18 mark jr
Posted 23 December 2010 - 10:41 AM
ok most of that is easy to understand. if your in namba and want to race a impba race then you will have to pay $10 for that race and your only covered for that race with the $10. but can it be used more than once? its not that clear and could go both ways.
#19 Don Ferrette
Posted 23 December 2010 - 10:45 AM
It is crystal clear, one time only.
#20 mark jr
Posted 23 December 2010 - 10:57 AM
well its not really cyrstal clear lol. the way it sates if its only once then you could only use it once in you life???
#21 Rigged
Posted 23 December 2010 - 11:02 AM
as clear as mud
#22 Don Ferrette
Posted 23 December 2010 - 11:05 AM
Whatever. The question has been answered.
#23 RaceCraftBearings
Posted 23 December 2010 - 11:11 AM
The following are policies offered by both NAMBA and IMPBA for One Time Event Fees.
The way it looks to me in NAMBA you are getting Insurance for that Event and can only do a One Time Fee once, the next event you go to in the same calendar year you will have to pay the remainder of the Membership fee to race and also become a Full Member of NAMBA for that year.
The NAMBA One Time Event Policy:
This application and the payment of $10.00 must be sent to the NAMBA office by the host club
or district immediately following the event. Insurance is valid for the dates of the event only and
on the site indicated.
Single event insurance may only be used once in any calendar year by a specific individual.
Should that individual desire to participate in a second event in a calendar year, a full
membership will be required. The single event fee paid at one event will be credited to the
price of a full membership should that membership be consummated within the same
calendar year.
IMPBA is a bit Confusing but the best I can gather is that you DO NOT get insurance by doing a One Time Event Fee. I have been members of both and have never used a One time event fee so I am not sure but I would hope your NAMBA Insurance would cover you at this IMPBA Event?
IMPBA Policy:
IMPBA BY-LAWS
CHAPTER I MEMBERSHIP
H. Paid members of other boating organizations may pay $10.00 for a one-time membership,
allowing running in that event only. The application and payment must be mailed to the
IMPBA office by the host club the first working day after accepted.
INSURANCE
SECTION 3 - Non Member Coverage
The insurance does not cover any person who is not a paid member of IMPBA regardless of what
other club or organization he may belong. Paid members of other boating organizations may pay a
one time $10.00 fee for membership dues during that event only. The application and payment
must be mailed by the host club to the Executive Office of IMPBA the first working day after
accepted.
Therefore no person may operate or assist in the operation of a model power boat, or enter the pit
area, or operate a retrieve boat at any IMPBA sanctioned event on an IMPBA insured pond, and be
covered by this insurance, unless he is a paid member of IMPBA.
This part confuses me the most as above it states that the insurance does not cover anyone who is not a paid member of IMPBA, you may pay a one time fee for membership dues during that event only (Not Insurance). Therefore I am a Paid member for this event only so I can only assume that I may do all those things listed in the part I underlined and why do I not get insurance or do I ?
I have been told that you can do multiple One Time Eevnt Fees in IMPBA until you have paid a Full membership and get your card.
#24 Don Ferrette
Posted 23 December 2010 - 11:22 AM
Well perhaps it's time for a re-write of that section of the IMPBA rule if there really are that many people who seem to not understand it but personally I think it's more of some just trying to skirt paying for a full membership. In all the years I've been an IMPBA member it has always been clear to me as well as others at any of the IMPBA races I have attended in that a paid member of another organization can use it one time in a calendar year.
#25 DON MAHER
Posted 23 December 2010 - 11:22 AM
The "ONE TIME" deal does not apply to this thread because you must be a "PAID MEMBER OF ANOTHER BOATING ORGANIZATION"
#26 RaceCraftBearings
Posted 23 December 2010 - 11:28 AM
If your talking about IMPBA you appear to be correct however with NAMBA there is no stipulation that you have to be a member of another org. NAMBA One Time gives you Insurance coverage for that event. Does IMPBA give you Insurance coverage for a One Time Eevnt if I am a NAMBA or APBA member?
#27 mark jr
Posted 23 December 2010 - 11:29 AM
thank you thats what i wanted to know. im not trying to be funny or a jerk just wanted to get it straight.
#28 SeanKewley
Posted 23 December 2010 - 11:58 AM
I’m not necessarily talking about allowing a potential new boater to run at a sanctioned event. As it stands currently, a potential new boater is not even allowed to run their boat at a club pond on a non-race day without a NAMBA/IMPBA membership. For example, if I invite someone who has expressed an interest in the hobby to our club pond, they can’t even put their boat in the water without first buying a full year membership to NAMBA or IMPBA. The purpose behind the thread is to see if others are concerned about the same thing, and what if any changes could be made to allow for a more gradual introduction to the hobby without first laying down a full year national organization membership before they even get started.
#29 RaceCraftBearings
Posted 23 December 2010 - 12:11 PM
As a Club they have to take that position in order to stay free from liability.
In my area there are many club members who run boats at a non Club lake and we welcome anyone to join us membership or not. We do tell them of the safety concerns and they are welcome to run with us if they abide by those. If they then want to attend a club function then thats when we tell them they need to be a NAMBA Member in order to do that.
#30 Tony Jacuzzi
Posted 23 December 2010 - 04:15 PM
For our club http://southernontar...b.moonfruit.com no one runs on the water without an IMPBA membership. Thats the promise we made to the Township owners and we hold to it 100%, sounds selfish but I would not risk losing our water for any stranger, that doesnt want to pay. Our club welcomes new members but only if they comply with our rules and the IMPBA's, additionally all of our members are on a one year probation for the first year to avoid any high maintenance individuals.
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#31 SayMikey
Posted 23 December 2010 - 05:46 PM
Sean perhaps you should pose this question to the land owner. Or go to a car dealer and ask if you can drive a car around the block without a drivers license or insurance. A little over the top but valid. Its not a question or whos going to hurt someone its who will pay if it happens....Mike
#32 Jeremy Linney
Posted 23 December 2010 - 06:07 PM
Simple solution, don't run on a club pond. There are plenty of lakes, ponds, etc. all over the place. Go and run your boat there. But if something does happen, no one on this site wants to hear about the lawsuit that will probably follow the accident. Not trying to be a jerk but there is always an option. We are in a time where lawyers will take some pretty ridiculous cases and under some of these vague laws we have, they will win. Protect yourself at all costs. I have raced offroad RC cars and trucks for years without insurance but have always felt a little uneasy doing so as I have seen some pretty serious injuries caused by careless drivers, mostly to corner marshalls. It is ultimately your decision in what you do, but changing laws that help protect responsible modelers is not the best avenue.
#33 SeanKewley
Posted 23 December 2010 - 06:36 PM
This is not about me. I am a member of the IMPBA, NAMBA, and the AMA. It is about the new potential model boaters out there. This hobby is a dying one when compared to airplanes, helis, and cars. It just seems to me that we might be able to get more people interested in it if we didn't require them to buy a fullmembership to a national organization when they aren't even sure if it is something they are going to like. How much smaller does the model boat community have to get before people start to discuss feasible options?
In regards to liability. None of the above mentioned organizations cover everything. Take the AMA for example. I know of an airplane pilot who was at a sanctioned AMA event, was an AMA member and still got sued. His home owners insurance had to cover it as the AMA didn't do anything for him. If you are liable, you are liable. Having a membership in these organizations doesn't matter if you can't prove that you were following the rules they set forth. I am not trashing our beloved IMPBA or NAMBA, I am asking reasonable questions about how we MIGHT improve upon existing policies to help foster the hobby by bringing in new boaters. Equating playing with toy boats to driving a car without a drivers license is an over the top comparison. Clearly I am not the only person who is concerned about this.
#34 SeanKewley
Posted 23 December 2010 - 06:54 PM
Perhaps a reduced membership fee for a 3 month period. That would allow the new boater to get their feet wet with the hobby, cost them less, and hopefully lead to them becoming a full fledge member. The AMA is doing something similar. They have a "PARK PILOT" membership for half the cost of the full membership.
#35 SayMikey
Posted 23 December 2010 - 07:29 PM
I agree with this statement but to be insured for IMPBA it has to be on insured water. Supervision is the key,Sean boater numbers will never be what the rest are. Simply stated a remote control boat is a maintenance hog.
#36 Bill Gibson
Posted 23 December 2010 - 07:30 PM
Sean, i respectfully disagree with your statement about model boating dying in numbers when compared to aircraft and cars....ive been involved in model boating for 30+ years, along with R/C planes, helis, and cars, and i far back as i can remember, we boaters have always been the fewest in numbers compared to other forms of R/C...its the nature of the beast simply when it comes to personal interest and availability of products.In fact, due to the progress of Gas and FE boats, there are probably more boaters in numbers than there's ever been...they just might not belong to any organization to be counted officially....i REMEMBER the days when my buddies and i could easily find a pond for boats, or a field to fly planes and helis, or a track to run cars, and NOBODY cared...until some moron figured out a way to make easy money by filing a lawsuit...THOSE DAYS ARE GONE...SADLY! I probably have said(complained) more than anybody about the cost of boats and boat racing, but i cant help but feel that if someone is willing to spend 300 to 1500 dollars for a toy boat to run/race, then surely they can cough up 50 to 60 dollars a year to cover thier asses...comparing R/C boating to other forms of the hobby is kinda like comparing apples to oranges and most likely will always be that way....we're kind of a "special" group of CRAZIES, i guess!
#37 misshydro
Posted 24 December 2010 - 09:57 AM
I'm sort of up in the air about it.. But I think they Both IMPBA AND NAMBA both should have the same rules on boats!! I dont like the idea when a BOAT is legal to race for NAMBA and illegal to run in IMPBA and the other way around too..
#38 SeanKewley
Posted 24 December 2010 - 10:39 AM
If NAMBA and the IMPBA could do something similar to the AMA’s “Park Pilot” membership I think that would be a step in the right direction. My airplane club has gained 6 new members over the last year that got started under the Park Pilot membership program. The AMA’s park pilot membership cost half the price of a full membership, provides them with less insurance coverage, they have no voting privileges, and it limits the type of models that they can fly i.e. “aircraft must not exceed 2 pounds, 60 mph, and may not be powered with an internal combustion engine”. IMPBA and NAMBA could call it an “entry level” membership and provide them with limited insurance coverage on insured water only, restrict them to smaller RTR size boats that have limited speed, and they would not have voting privileges.
#39 john v
Posted 24 December 2010 - 12:40 PM
if you get a new boater who is going to ***** about 45$ for namba or 60$ for impba then tell him he is in the wrong hobby
#40 jetpack
Posted 24 December 2010 - 02:25 PM
It would be nice if all insurance was paid through the AMA or at least one organization where if you are an R/C'er, one yearly payment for being one. Boat, Air, Surface...
Three different branches doesn't make much sense, it is not like they compete on prices.
I fly as well as boat and have to pay two different organizations. Shouldn't I be covered year round under ONE policy? I'm only a seasonal one, too. We have winters.
#41 Roxyflash
Posted 24 December 2010 - 03:04 PM
Good topic cost the newbie in are pond 90 bucks they have to join IMPBA and club dues.Seen many go down the road and never return.They still run but not at are pond.Are club is dying.Not sure what the real answer is.The Gas and FE has made no differance in are area.
#42 SeanKewley
Posted 24 December 2010 - 03:49 PM
That is one way of looking at it. It is also the same argument the govt uses when they want to raise our taxes. For example... When a state wants to raise the DMV registration by $60 they justify it by saying that if you can afford a $30000 vehicle then you can afford to pay an additional $60 per year for plates.
#43 Bill Gibson
Posted 24 December 2010 - 06:18 PM
Sean, im 100% for ANYTHING that would make this hobby more affordable, but as harsh as it may sound, john v makes a very good point...if someone wants to get involved in any hobby that involves any potential risk to others or property,and is willing to invest 400 to 2000 dollars in the equipment it takes to partake in that hobby, than why would anyone not be willing to spend 45 to 60 dollars a YEAR to protect themself and the hobby as well...how small of a percentage are we talking here? It makes absolutly NO sence what so ever NOT TO! I so wish that we lived in a perfect world and didnt need it, but thats simply not the case....for what its worth, i know several people that fly elecric R/C planes and helis and they have no insurance what so ever, and they're STUPID enough to think that because the aircraft they fly is electric, they cant injure anyone with it, so they dont need to belong to the AMA....
#44 Drew2
Posted 24 December 2010 - 06:37 PM
The insurance issue is mute- It WONT and CANT change period/and shouldnt. Pony up and pay or dont play- As harsh as that is - it is - for the safety of all
Not to get off topic- BUT How bout a little real holiday meat and potatoes when it comes to NAMBA and IMPBA - It would sure be nice to see some class unification and a little more willingness to work toward a "common goal" as National Organizations
A willingness to make all the class offered by both sanctions uniform in order to promote the hobby on a national level no matter what sanction you joined or what boat you chose to run or where you chose to run it Lets face it , we all do this for the same reason - hopefully - no matter where or what you run . Merry Christmas and Happy New Years guys and gals-
#45 SeanKewley
Posted 24 December 2010 - 08:34 PM
Where in this statement do you see me advocating that people don't pay for coverage? Let me pose this question... Why do you think the AMA decided to offer a reduced membership initiative like the Park Pilot membership?
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#46 glenng
Posted 24 December 2010 - 08:36 PM
Bill, We just started a new club in Utah this last year and lucky me got appionted safety officer. The club Prez and I butted heads over EVERYONE being NAMBA members and having insurance. He did not want to scare off potential members and I did not want anyone to get hurt or lose the lake. I resigned as saftey officer. All we could afford last year was 300' of the orange safety netting- not enough to cover the coarse and the X monos would punch right thru it. The County owns the lake. If anyone sued the county????????????????? Guess what- NO LAKE! Just my .02 cents.
#47 anthony_marquart
Posted 24 December 2010 - 09:55 PM
I voted on this and I think it should be made easier. Weekend race passes would be great.
When I saw the votes showing that people don't think that we should make it easier to race, I was shocked. This hobby is expensive. I am always scraping together cash just to build boats. Paying a year membership to run in 2 or 3 races doesn't make much sense in my case. If we want to promote our hobby we need to target more than just the "highly compensated" group. and remember,.. this is just my opinion..
#48 Drew2
Posted 24 December 2010 - 10:07 PM
I have sat out races because I couldnt pay my dues- is what it is Anthony , period.
If you cant afford to pay your yearly dues- you need to find your own pond-
IT HAS NOTHING to do with $$ or arrogance - trust me .
I have neither, including tact............
#49 anthony_marquart
Posted 24 December 2010 - 10:11 PM
I have to add,.. to the people that say, "you spent $$$ on your toy,, another $60 should be nothing",.. This is the same premise that gets us the inheritance tax,.. and democrats adding billions of dollars in ear marks to every bell they pass.. Some kids saves for months and buys a RTR at the LHS, spends his lunch money on a quart of fuel,.. then learns he can't even run the boat with the guys he looks up to..
Weekend race passes are a very good idea. This WILL promote the hobby. IMO
#50 Roxyflash
Posted 25 December 2010 - 08:36 AM
For kids that have no backing from there folks it can be tuff.I ran one race and tested twice this year.Still got my dues paided.I did have help from some club members for my club dues.When they had the lifetime membership offered i wished i had the extra cash at that time pay it once and forget about it.Maybe they could do that again.That was a great deal.Now its time to renew again.
#51 D.Smock
Posted 25 December 2010 - 11:09 AM
Perhaps the best (easiest) answer would be for clubs to let interested parties to contribute to a fund that could be used to sponsor, or partially sponsor potential new racers.
I wouldn't have a problem giving to the cause if we had that problem here.
This could work well and wouldn't burden the sactioning bodys. Just my .02
#52 Bill Gibson
Posted 25 December 2010 - 11:45 AM
Weekend race passes are a very good idea. This WILL promote the hobby. IMO
Im no fan of the government, but this issue has nothing to do with that issue...there was a time in this country when we did something very simple..WE LIVED WITHIN OUR MEANS...if you cant afford, it then you CANT do it untill you can! In this day and age, show me the "kid" you are describing, and ill be the FIRST one to try and help that kid out!! And believe me my friend, i am NOT among those who are "highly compensated....this has little to do with that so called "kid" your talking about...and let me say it again, im ALL for making this hobby more affordable, but 45 to 60 bucks a year for insurance aint gonna change a thing! A family of 4 can piss that amount away for one night at the movies....
#53 SeanKewley
Posted 25 December 2010 - 12:12 PM
All ideas are welcome. And that seems like a reasonable one, IF people actually do that in their clubs. However, judging from the vote responses and the commentary, the majority doesn’t see any issue with the status quo. I guess that the growth or lack thereof, is a non issue. Are the membership statistics for IMPBA and NAMBA public to members? If so, could someone point me in their direction? I would be interested to see the growth trends for each organization over the last 10 years. I had not realized that participation in race events was so good elsewhere.
#54 Bill Gibson
Posted 25 December 2010 - 12:29 PM
Sean, the last time i looked at the entries for the Orlando Winter Nats in January, its around 450 boats....i dont remember if there were ever that many boats entered before....i would, as you would love to see growth of the hobby EVERYWHERE! It simply makes a great hobby even better!
#55 bzubee
Posted 25 December 2010 - 10:39 PM
I guess you shoouldn't have to pay for the movies either if you sneak in or the green's fee if you want to play GOLF. Also no need to have liabiliy insurance for the car you drive to get to the lake right? If you play you gotta pay!
#56 mark jr
Posted 26 December 2010 - 12:40 AM
ok then heres an idea you run a two day pass for thoughs that whant to try it ,you could even go as far as say this can only be used once every 4-5 years. charge like $10-$20 after thoughs two days are up make them buy a full year and put the $10-$20 tord it.....no this should not be for a larg event, club level only like a test and tune day...... this can give them a chance to meet some club members and run there boat in a race seting. and if your worried about rules of the club or impba or namba then have somone sit down and tell them what they need to know and after make then take a small test, and if they fail make them come back the next week and take it agin.it comes down to no one will pay good monney to play when they have no idea of what there geting into, they may not like the members,they may not like the race seting,or they may love it and say im in. its kind of like buying a new car you would not buy it if you could not drive it first right???????????????????? or beter yet make them buy a full year right out of the gate and give them two weeks to make up there mind if they dont like it refund what they didnt use its what 16 cents a day.
#57 HTV Boats
Posted 26 December 2010 - 09:36 AM
Making it easy for someone to "try" racing is flat out a mistake that will cost us all. Promote the hobby with quality clubs and events that will draw people and give them their moneys worth. I have seen many guys come and go over the years an the real quality people and racers stick no matter what the obstacles are. A lot of us wish we could do things we can't afford but live within our means. I don't believe here are too many kids not eating lunchs at school so they can buy nitro. When I built my first boat I ran it at small ponds and on the lake I lived on but could not use the local RC clubs pond till I joined both the local and national organization. Just is what it is if your serious you'll do it. When I got involved working in that club I saw many guys come out once and never saw them again or people who wanted an exeption just to try it. They never stuck around. If it's in your blood you'll race. From the insurance side I know first hand how the system works. When you look for companies to take a risk and the word "racing" is in the first sentence your going to have to prove your organiation has a structured proceedure for safety pertaining to your particular hazards. Your past claims record, how much exposure and what your doing to mitigate future accidents decide the rates you pay. Your only negotiatng tool is procedures and enforcement within your organization. If you say "by the way we encourage inexperienced racers and kid by subsidizing them and reducing their fees" watch the underwrters face as he throws your paperwork in the trash. This is the real world and if you want to help new racers and wind up paying yearly dues of two and three hundred dollars a years thats what the outcome will be. If dues went up $30 next year people would scream bloody murder.
Local clubs that can host 3 races a year and fun runs are great but to race 4-10 time a year you find yourself traveling adding big expenses that make race fees small in comparison. Actual insurance cost are dollars well spent compared to trophys and awards that collect dust and get thrown in the trash eventually. May be the biggest cost in fees that no one addresses. Have a great holiday season and see you a the races. Sorry for the reality check.
#58 SeanKewley
Posted 26 December 2010 - 10:09 AM
I respect your opinion, and I believe that many others here agree with that 100%, but that is a pretty elitist statement. If that is the real reason that the majority is against a reduced membership initiative then there are bigger problems than the cost of entry into the hobby/sport.
#59 Mark Poole ModVP
Posted 26 December 2010 - 10:33 AM
I cannot agree with that being an "elitist" statement. There is simply NOTHING elitist about $50 a year for insurance coverage to participate in a hobby/motorsport. I used to race life size boats and sometimes I want to think that it became elitist because of the huge expense that it now takes to race. But, if you look at the history of the sport the cost went up because of the increase in safety equipment and practices that have saved countless lives. If (yeah if)I had the money I would race F1/Champ class now that they have capsules. If fewer American families can afford things like RC boating (on sanctioned water) then that is just a sign of the times and the way it is. As far as making it more affordable, did you miss the threads on the JAE riggers? I can see a dad and his son spending time with a set of these plans and building a boat for very little $$.
#60 Mark Poole ModVP
Posted 26 December 2010 - 10:43 AM
I see a disturbing "trend" underlining this thread. Think about this, the worse our economy gets and the more people that have less money then those of us that hang on to what we like to do makes us look "elite". I am not rich nor elite. The thought of a poorer person seeing me as elite is a dangerous social influence brought to you by Big Brother.
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#61 Don Ferrette
Posted 26 December 2010 - 10:45 AM
What Mic posted is on the mark and you need to pay attention to everything he wrote. Some of you have NO CLUE how difficult it is to obtain any type of insurance when you include the word RACING. Being a long time member of the IMPBA BOD I know first hand what we go through each year to insure our members as well as those who own the properties we use and the spectators who might attend are properly protected. It's this type of approach that has had people coming to us over the last few years to hold races. A couple council members from Hobart went to an out of town race, sought out Stu and Bruce and asked what it would take to get us to come race there, it is now one of if not the best race in the country with direct city involvement. I personally was contacted 2 weeks ago by an individual involved with the city of Richmond offering up a place for us to practice and hold a race as well as wanting to know what they could do to assist us. The location was stellar with easy access, plenty of room and parking with hotels close by but unfortunately the park area they had in might was just too small water wise. If we were a bunch of rag tag people playing with tug boats I'm sure things would far cheaper but we are RACERS and a vast majority of the monies we take in from membership dues PAYS FOR OUR INSURANCE, that is the bottom line. There is nothing "elitist" about what Mic wrote, rather it is simply the cold, hard facts so DEAL WITH IT!! I'm really growing tired of the few people constantly bitching over the fees of membership, if you don't like it then perhaps you should try something cheaper like bowling. Sorry if this pisses a few of you off but if you want to be mad at someone, go be mad at the lawyers as they are the sole reason it is the way it is these days.
#62 Bill Gibson
Posted 26 December 2010 - 10:45 AM
I find it incredible that you find Mic's statement "elitist" in the least....if thats the case then what your trying to do could be considered somewhat "socialist" by any stretch of the imagination, if we're going to play political comparisions here...playing with model boats is an expensive hobby, but ive known people from ALL income levels that induldge in the hobby....those who are in lower levels simply live within thier means and do without in other areas of thier lives, because they want to stay involved in the hobby that much....thats how much they want to be a part of it..both you and Anthony have every right to express your views and thats cool, but when you make statements like the ones your making,you open yourselves up for responses like mine..its nothing personal...but the right to free speech works BOTH ways...
#63 HTV Boats
Posted 26 December 2010 - 11:23 AM
I take no offense to "elitist" as in all forms of racing that exists. Most racing comes down to wallet racing. I used to race full size and will tell you money outweights talent in most cases. Money can also buy talent, when internal resourses are short.
What were dealing with here is the crossover from a hobby to a sport. I think for guys like Don it's more a sport than a hobby or just an obsession. I want to get my grandkids involved but not till they can run a road course well with an electric car and show some dedication to the work involved in getting equipment ready and understand the strategy of a heat race. This has been a family event for me over the years but as eluded to "Race" becomes a serious contest at some point. It isn't just 4 lb RTR's going 30+ mph. A 16lb gasser at 55 mph can do some real damage. Bringing in new blood and ideas is a win win but there are going to be some minimum requirements.
#64 SeanKewley
Posted 26 December 2010 - 11:27 AM
There is no “disturbing trend” in this thread. It is simple discussion and debate. If that threatens some of you I apologize. I feel that this discussion has been very civil and relevant. I’m not angry, why are you? As I have said before, this is not about me, I am a member of IMPBA, NAMBA, and the AMA, and I understand their importance. You are preaching to the choir about their relevance to the hobby. If a reduced membership option like the AMA’s park pilot program is such a horrible idea, why did they institute it? Did they by chance see an opportunity to benefit their hobby by encouraging more people to become engaged at a lower cost of entry, while still having insurance coverage? Many of you keep professing that this is solely about racing. Perhaps not everyone who wants to play toy boats is interested in racing. Many don’t have access to public water and their only alternative is a club pond. A reduced membership initiative like theAMA’s Park Pilot membership could allow them to participate at a different level. I’m not taking any of this personal. I am in this hobby because it is fun. When things stop being fun, the hobby as a whole will suffer.
#65 SeanKewley
Posted 26 December 2010 - 12:11 PM
I would also like to add that it seems that some of you are implying that IMPBA and NAMBA membership is solely concerned around racing and racers? That is simply not the case. Last time I checked the hobby also included sail boaters, sport boaters, scale boaters, combat boaters, etc. Are any of you taking these folks into consideration when shooting down the ideas expressed here?
#66 SeanKewley
Posted 26 December 2010 - 12:32 PM
Well said. That was my intention with this thread. What would an “Entry Level” membership include? What limits would we place on this level of membership? What types of boats could these members run? What limited insurance coverage would they receive?
#67 Joe W
Posted 26 December 2010 - 12:46 PM
Many of us started @ uninsured - non registered lakes But you knew if you ran a boat out of the lake you inquired all of the risk too. Property damage (cars trks) or personal damage. AS many became more experienced & took notice there were organizations that were holding races. Many of us paid the dues & went to the legal organized races & events to compete with the others that shared the same interest. Both organizations already have entry level race classes. Locally a boater has to pay a local Club Membership fees to have access to the pond insured by IMPBA & Must Be a Paid Up Member of the IMPBA. it is the basics. IMPBA & NAMBA are about Legal Organized Racing. Many clubs have already obtained the Property & the Legal paper work for you to Enjoy you boat on..... many of us insure Personal Big Boats & Jet ski`s. Even though they Are Seasonally Used. You Must Pay Anually to have Any Coverage.
#68 Don Ferrette
Posted 26 December 2010 - 02:02 PM
Either you don't get it or you just don't want to hear it. It's not about the "racers" rather it is BECAUSE of the racing that things need to be as they are. The bottom line is this- if they want to participate "newbies" will need to pay normal membership dues like everyone else. This lame argument that the cost of the annual membership is turning away boaters is total hogwash, membership levels have been steadily increasing the last few years. Because we live in the age of liability and litigation things have to be the way we are. The AMA is fortunate enough through their sheer size that they can negotiate with insurance carriers to obtain the "sport" membership (do you know they have their own lobbyist on Capitol Hill?). We on the other hand being the smallest faction of r/c are often facing a "this is all we can offer you" situation. We've tried to look into this "entry level" thing before in the past, it's just not a viable option so let it go. Each year when we review our coverages and solicit insurance carriers we are lucky if we even have more than one or two to talk to let alone offer us any type of coverage. Entry level membership? Sure we have an entry level membership, pay your dues and you're in. Again, sorry if this is not what you want hear but that's life for now.
#69 SeanKewley
Posted 26 December 2010 - 03:54 PM
It is truly upsetting to hear you label this discussion as “lame” Don. I would have expected more from someone in a leadership role. This “lame” argument could help increase the membership numbers in both the IMPBA and NAMBA, thus increasing the size of the organization and its influence. Just because you say it is not possible, doesn’t mean that it can’t be done now or in the future. Do your beliefs reflect those of our elected officials in NAMBA and IMPBA? I hope not. If so, why would anyone other than racers want to join either organization? Especially considering your belief that those who don’t race need to pay up to subsidize those of us that do?
#70 Tom Foley
Posted 26 December 2010 - 04:10 PM
Sean ..this really is not just about racing ..anyone who wants to play boats at a sanctioed , insured lake must pay for membership . We have all had a kid , a friend , your wife or mine perhaps wants to try a boat out ...you simply have to go somewhere else and do it . If we want to run at an insured secured site , unfortunately you have to pay for membership . If I want to go AMA Roadracing even on a beginner level ..gotta pay . if I want to race Stock Outboards again ...have to pay . If I want to play video games online gotta pay 60.00 a month for internet access ..gotta pay . There it is ...gotta pay . Life is complicated and Model Boating will never be a Soccer League ..but ..they have to pay too , more than boat racers .
#71 glenng
Posted 26 December 2010 - 04:27 PM
Sean, Last year our club charged $15 membership fee and What was Namba last year? $45? And what did I do? I complained to the club prez. dues are too low to buy proper safety netting to protect spectators. I can help the newer guys by pitting for them, making parts for their boats, giving advice, loaning tools,pipes, props etc. What I will not do is risk loosing the closest running site to my home(35 miles away). I agree with Don- you whining is lame. What other hobby could you get into for $60?
Glenn
#72 El Zorro
Posted 26 December 2010 - 04:49 PM
Ever since I first became a member of IMPBA ( 1985 ) the subject of "entry level" membership or something along those lines has come up many times. And every time it was discussed by the IMPBA Board the discussion was the same..........read Mr. Ferrette's posts here and you will see why things are as they are. It is NOT EASY TO GET INSURANCE for any organization that involves RACING! When I was racing Stock Outboard hydroplanes in APBA a few years ago I was shocked to find out that for a weekend race sanction ( Saturday and Sunday ) and Friday open water the host club was required to pay APBA around $3,000. Then the host club had to pay for an ambulance to be on location for Saturday and Sunday ( you were on your own Friday ) which I think was about $400 or more EACH day. Most big boat clubs don't make any money on their races, but manage to survive by other means ( club dues, raffles, donations, etc. ). Doesn't sound very fair or reasonable, but these people want to race and that's just the way it is. Racing has risks, and you have to have insurance. IMPBA, NAMBA and APBA is 99.9% about racing. If someone doesn't want to be involved with the racing and just wants to run their model boat in a local pond, in my opinion, it is too much of a risk to take without being insured by one of the boating organizations. It is cheap insurance. If someone thinks that a years membership in IMPBA is too much to pay to run their model boat every year then I think they need to find another hobby.........
Dick Tyndall
#73 brandonclan
Posted 26 December 2010 - 05:04 PM
Maybe the ones who don't race and just want to play should find a pond and come up with thier own insurance policy?? After investigating insurance premiums and such, I bet they will agree, that the IMPBA and NAMBA registration fees that include insurance are a real bargain for the year!! Join a club with a sanctioned pond and join the national org. to have the insurance, you'll never have to worry about a place to run.
It's all about LIABILITY....and the cost of protecting all that is involved.
My .02
#74 Don Ferrette
Posted 26 December 2010 - 05:35 PM
I appreciate the support Mr. Tyndall but it has become painfully apparent that while Sean might read the posts he chooses not to listen to what they actually say because it's not what he wants to hear.
#75 Don Ferrette
Posted 27 December 2010 - 07:07 AM
I think this topic and it's "poll" has run it's course so time to put a fork in it.
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