21 Hydro Propellers

[Marty Davis]

About two years ago someone make a video of someone running a orlic carbon fiber 21 hydro at a canadian race. It ran 80mph CONSISTENT heat after heat and blew away all other riggers regardless of size. Correct me if Iam wrong ,if the fastest 21 riggers at the nats are running upper 60s to lower 70s mph CONSISTANTLY IN HEAT RACING FORM, with off the shelf technology (novarossi engine, abc prop,someones 21 pipe ,and standard hardware) why are there so many of you 21 gurus reinventing the wheel? Say the average 21 rigger at the nats is running a true 70 mph. And for argument sake after all your R&D in your pipes and props and hulls you picked up 10% gain in mph. That would be 7 mph gain for all your work. On a average you still you be 3 mph slower then this canadian guy running a CF 21 rigger at a true 80 mph. WHATS MY POINT YOU ASK? The technology already exits in most circumstances to really fast. Is it not that this canadian guy who said Frank Orlic did everything master the setup of the boat ? Even the CF hull ,which is a special custom hull, runs a lot different then the average 21 rigger. MORE POSITIVE. Maybe this 80 mph rigger mastered the setup then reinventing the wheel in new technology. Setup considerations- 1. less drag on hull. 2. weight distrubution 3. engine setup combination. 4. pipe length. 5. strut position. 6. boat running at peak rpm band. Here in district 3 10-12 years ago a father /son team would take off the shelf parts and setup a 21 rigger and test for hours and sometimes days till they mastered the setup. And nobody could beat them when they were on there game. The father and son team I am talking about was Stan Simpson and his father for Jacksonville Fla. They showed me that setup is evrything. Is it that they would just work at it until it was right were most modelers won't. Dan Mccormick District 3 namba

Dan:

I saw one of Franco's Carbon boats run many years ago when Ron VanWagnen spanked most everyone with it.

It was super fast and dominated the race that I saw it at.

It did not turn as well as some I have seen and the extra speed was given up in that way.

IF that boat was optimized in turning ability it would be hard to beat by the best.

It was awesome in speed.

MARTY: Your remark regarding Rons CF boat confirms my point. I am still running the same pipe I started with 29 years ago .OPS 3280 pipe And as become the 21 pipe to have in metal or carbon.

Tell me Marty what new hull design ,pipe design, prop design ,engine design that would truely outperform a 10 year old ,novarossi,octura prop,ops pipe 3280 in a crapshooter or intrepid or Ron V boat running at peak performance due to the optimim setup. There is one part of the total race program were I would agree could use some R&D. PROPELLERS. Why props ,because most of the props are 25 -35 years old and only run 80-85% efficient. The gains in technology over the last 25-30 years in engine and hull developement has yielded boat combinations that are running close to the point of deminshing returns. I went to the 1999 nats in Huntsville Alabama and ran a seaducer 21 for the first time. I barrowed the boat and lost the radio in the first test session were it ran upside down across the lake for a full tank of fuel. I won all heats excluding one were i got second. Was I the fastest. 43 mph no. But nobody could beat me in the turns. I never lifted my finger going around the course and pulled 30 feet in every turn,why SETUP.

I raced CF orlic hulls and beat them with heavier RR hulls . Why setup. Don't get me wrong if your running caveman technology Veco 19, K&b 21. Then new hulls and engines will matter. But in the last 10 years ever since the novarossi 10 port came out. What does Andys MAC 21 have over all the other engines that made it in a league of its own. He got the engine setup finally down . I today am running 56 mph on my 21 mono due to a prop I found picked up 6-7 mph and then modified it. I am running alot faster Not by reinventing the wheel but by making the wheel run more effiecient.

Dan:

You will find that VERY FEW people that have .21 boats running very very well. Most of it is boat setup. I spend hours on boat setup and that really pays off. I also spend a ton of time with props. By the way, I have not let it be known until now that Frank Bonanno has made a Prop Duplicator off of my current best prop (1450). In fact he has made 2 duplicators, one for each blade, since my prop has different configuration on both blades. I tried a prop with both blades bent of the A Duplicator and both blades bent on the B Duplicator. Neither prop was nearly as good as a prop bent using both duplicators. Frank told me that he has those duplicators available. I did this since I didn't want to not have a way to duplicate my best 20 prop ever. Now I am protected on that. AND, I decided to allow him to sell them.

As for running 43 mph with your mono and beating everyone in the turns - I can appreciate that since I also concentrate on turn speed.

Time spent refining your 20 hydro pays huge dividends.

As for your question about Andy's MAC 21. It is what I still run, for a couple reasons. It is a rear exhaust as the number 1 reason and I have a few that I can interchange with all running well. I would be equally happy with a Nova Rossi, except for the lack of a rear exhaust engine. I ran NR for many years with great success and reliability. If NR all of a sudden came out with a rear exhaust engine, I would probably switch unless Andy produced a new MAC.

Marty,

What do you find to be an advantage of the rear exhaust engines? I've run both and prefer the ease of being able to R&R the belt or shaft without removing the pipe. Also, with one twist of the belt it's out of the way and not being burned by the pipe of header. Not to mention the Nova's tend to pull more prop. Oh ya, and the new engine costs $215.00 and your choice is obsolete. Makes it a no brainer for me.

Ron

Ron:

Sure can't argue with $215

I just like the clean shape of the boat without the pipe hanging out the side.

I don't agree at all with you about the NR pulling more prop though.... Guess it is how the engine is set up. I ran NR for many years so I am in a good position to make the statement that the NR does not pull more prop. I am running a much different head configuration that I was running on the NR now on the MAC so it is really not a fair comparison. I would have to build a NR with my current design and then I could say for sure.

Marty,

All I know, is around here the Mac .21/ NovaRossi is like comparing the CMB RS .45 to a Picco Blackhead. There's just no comparison. Maybe it's the air

Ron

Ron:

If I were going to run 45 class, the CMB RS would be the engine that I would run..... It is an awesome engine with tons of torque, great RPM and durable. What more could you want?

Marty Davis

 

[Marty Davis]

Have any off the 21 gurus run any of Andys new 21 props for hydro and mono. Any ABC props offering better performance over the run of the mill 1450,1650,1445,h7 h10. If all of the new props ABC has done in the last 3 years and ANDYS new milled props have not being able to raise the bar of performance overall then old school technology still rules and proves my point.
A 30+ year old prop (1450) on a duplicator

B. 30+year old pipe (ops 3280) sleeved

C. 11 year old 10 port NR modded correctly

D. 10 year old Speedmaster hardware

E. 10-12 year old interpid,Road Runner ,crapshooter etc.

All of the above can run 75 mph if setup properly. 10 -12 years ago Marty came to Ft.Myers Florida. Sitting on the side of the lake was FRED MCBROOM. He told me that Martys Intrepid was doing 75mph in heat racing form. Fastest thing there. Fast forward 11 years to today. What has all the new hull designs,propdesigns,pipedesigns and hardware improvements along with the fancy dyno testing done overall to raise the bar of performance overall. It told you what works and what doesnot. But true improvements to performance ?????????????. Most of the hulls in the past ten years have been designed well enough to the point were there close to the point of deminishing returns. The same can be said about engines and hardware. Yes there are always exceptions. Did the 2.5 lb RR panout. No

Even if all the work everyboby in doing to 21 rigger design gets them to 80 mph, Can you drive EFFECTIVELY at 80 mph. I hope you bring a change of underware. What happened to all the super pipes of years past that were the scrooge of the nation. Irwin ,Mac,Novarossi,Picco,Cooper,Cmb,how come none of these pipes are used today for top performance like the OPS 3280. Why because once you get the design down there is no need to reinvent the wheel if everything else stays the same. If new exotic metals ,designs and manufacturing improve greatly in the future then it time to go to R&D .

DAN

Dan:

I think that you are more correct than you know....... I have heard that Ron Zaker's New 20 boat is impressive. Will have to see when the water gets softer up there

 

[NOVALTD]

I forgot to mention in my last thread that Mark Grim from Southern Calf. just broke the 21 rigger strightaway record at 110+ with a bone stock mac 21 and a ralative simply rigger. He personnally told the previous to me over the phone. To my understanding all of the equipment excluding the boat was over the shelve technology. If I have miss quoted something please correct me. What is the moral of the story: If the average good standing riggers are doing 70 mph and Mark does 110 thats 40 mph faster then the above average heat racing 21s. Oh I know your mind set ,THATS A SAW SETUP NOT HEAT RACING. The point being there is proof that over the shelf PROVEN technology can make you super fast .

Its just a matter of working out the pain in the ass details to get there. So if someone thinks that reinventing the wheel will be the answer to go fast knock yourself out . But don't be surprised that the end results of all your hopes and dreams yields little to nothing. Most racers just want to buy over the shelf technology ,set it up and go and squeeze the throttle to victory. The philosophy of convience will never prevail over the philosophy of sound principle. Common overlooked ,misunderstood procedures in racing once you have proven equiptment.

1. improper weight ( to heavy ,to light) Tail weight.

2. " c/g

3. " sponson angles/toe-in toe-out

4. axis of rotation

5. Turnfin misshaped,to thick ,not shapen properly, not parallel to CL of boat. improper depth.

6. Struct alignment /angle /depth/ round vs flat bottom/Length

7. Engine set up -compression ratio/porting/carburation

8. Fuel- % nitro ,% alcohol, oil use. no moisture./grade

9. Tunepipe- volume ,angles,stinger dia. Length. A proven design is adaquate .Only in persuing

high speed time trails will R&D make a real difference. A proven design OPS 3280

10.Hardware Design/weight/location/materiel used.

11.Glow plug Heat range/integrity

12. Proper flotation and water drainage

13. Good Radio equiptment /location/dependable/good switches

14.Good Race strategy-starts,lane used /finish all heats

15. Racers check list/ check list for inbetween heats.

16. Consistancy------------Consistancy---------------Consistancy

17. Risk assessment Know when to go for it vs. staying out of harms way.

18. Good field equiptment /starter batteries/glo-driver/starter/fuelcan/stand

19. Propellers,Pitch,Dia,Cup, thickness,rake. Making a propeller run more efficient in the name of the game. If there is any race component that could use R&D ITS PROPELLERS.

If anyboby has mastered all of the above and speed and handeling is the only performance issue holding you back then R&D may work for you. But if experience has tought me anything working out the details of a proven design will usually yeild greater returns in performance then starting with a new concept /design. DAN

 

[FloridaScaleBoater]

Man, is this interesting or what?

Just to think, this all started with a simple question, what are people running for 21 hydro props :huh: :huh:

 

[Terry Flynn]

I think that they are reinventing the wheel all the time it may have the same shape but technology keeps getting better so the wheel can go faster and faster. And if it weren't for the people spending hours upon hours trying to go faster with off the wall ideas we would still be running the same stuff that they had in the 60s wouldn't that be fun. Maybe Ron Zakers new hydro will turn out to be something new and improved may be not but lets not beat up on people that think out side the box.

everything that it is new ends up on the shelf for everybody to enjoy.

And by the way I seen it up close today what a sweet looking rigger.... Nice job Ron and good luck.

Terry

 

[Jack ODonnell]

I forgot to mention in my last thread that Mark Grim from Southern Calf. just broke the 21 rigger strightaway record at 110+ with a bone stock mac 21 and a ralative simply rigger. He personnally told the previous to me over the phone. To my understanding all of the equipment excluding the boat was over the shelve technology. If I have miss quoted something please correct me. What is the moral of the story: If the average good standing riggers are doing 70 mph and Mark does 110 thats 40 mph faster then the above average heat racing 21s. Oh I know your mind set ,THATS A SAW SETUP NOT HEAT RACING. The point being there is proof that over the shelf PROVEN technology can make you super fast .Its just a matter of working out the pain in the ass details to get there. So if someone thinks that reinventing the wheel will be the answer to go fast knock yourself out . But don't be surprised that the end results of all your hopes and dreams yields little to nothing. Most racers just want to buy over the shelf technology ,set it up and go and squeeze the throttle to victory. The philosophy of convience will never prevail over the philosophy of sound principle. Common overlooked ,misunderstood procedures in racing once you have proven equiptment.

1. improper weight ( to heavy ,to light) Tail weight.

2. " c/g

3. " sponson angles/toe-in toe-out

4. axis of rotation

5. Turnfin misshaped,to thick ,not shapen properly, not parallel to CL of boat. improper depth.

6. Struct alignment /angle /depth/ round vs flat bottom/Length

7. Engine set up -compression ratio/porting/carburation

8. Fuel- % nitro ,% alcohol, oil use. no moisture./grade

9. Tunepipe- volume ,angles,stinger dia. Length. A proven design is adaquate .Only in persuing

high speed time trails will R&D make a real difference. A proven design OPS 3280

10.Hardware Design/weight/location/materiel used.

11.Glow plug Heat range/integrity

12. Proper flotation and water drainage

13. Good Radio equiptment /location/dependable/good switches

14.Good Race strategy-starts,lane used /finish all heats

15. Racers check list/ check list for inbetween heats.

16. Consistancy------------Consistancy---------------Consistancy

17. Risk assessment Know when to go for it vs. staying out of harms way.

18. Good field equiptment /starter batteries/glo-driver/starter/fuelcan/stand

19. Propellers,Pitch,Dia,Cup, thickness,rake. Making a propeller run more efficient in the name of the game. If there is any race component that could use R&D ITS PROPELLERS.

If anyboby has mastered all of the above and speed and handeling is the only performance issue holding you back then R&D may work for you. But if experience has tought me anything working out the details of a proven design will usually yeild greater returns in performance then starting with a new concept /design. DAN

Dan; How does one progress with out R&D ? Mark did not go 110 with over the shelve technology. There was a lot of R&D that went into getting that speed. J.ODonnell

 

[DON MAHER]

Dan,

You asked to be corrected if wrong. Your statement that Mark Grim ran a Mac-21 is incorrect. He runs a CMB-21 Valvoa that has been "Blue Printed" to his likeing!!!!!

Don

ps Hi Jack!

 

[Ron Jefferson]

About two years ago someone make a video of someone running a orlic carbon fiber 21 hydro at a canadian race. It ran 80mph CONSISTENT heat after heat and blew away all other riggers regardless of size. Correct me if Iam wrong ,if the fastest 21 riggers at the nats are running upper 60s to lower 70s mph CONSISTANTLY IN HEAT RACING FORM, with off the shelf technology (novarossi engine, abc prop,someones 21 pipe ,and standard hardware) why are there so many of you 21 gurus reinventing the wheel? Say the average 21 rigger at the nats is running a true 70 mph. And for argument sake after all your R&D in your pipes and props and hulls you picked up 10% gain in mph. That would be 7 mph gain for all your work. On a average you still you be 3 mph slower then this canadian guy running a CF 21 rigger at a true 80 mph. WHATS MY POINT YOU ASK? The technology already exits in most circumstances to really fast. Is it not that this canadian guy who said Frank Orlic did everything master the setup of the boat ? Even the CF hull ,which is a special custom hull, runs a lot different then the average 21 rigger. MORE POSITIVE. Maybe this 80 mph rigger mastered the setup then reinventing the wheel in new technology. Setup considerations- 1. less drag on hull. 2. weight distrubution 3. engine setup combination. 4. pipe length. 5. strut position. 6. boat running at peak rpm band. Here in district 3 10-12 years ago a father /son team would take off the shelf parts and setup a 21 rigger and test for hours and sometimes days till they mastered the setup. And nobody could beat them when they were on there game. The father and son team I am talking about was Stan Simpson and his father for Jacksonville Fla. They showed me that setup is evrything. Is it that they would just work at it until it was right were most modelers won't. Dan Mccormick District 3 namba

Dan:

I saw one of Franco's Carbon boats run many years ago when Ron VanWagnen spanked most everyone with it.

It was super fast and dominated the race that I saw it at.

It did not turn as well as some I have seen and the extra speed was given up in that way.

IF that boat was optimized in turning ability it would be hard to beat by the best.

It was awesome in speed.

MARTY: Your remark regarding Rons CF boat confirms my point. I am still running the same pipe I started with 29 years ago .OPS 3280 pipe And as become the 21 pipe to have in metal or carbon.

Tell me Marty what new hull design ,pipe design, prop design ,engine design that would truely outperform a 10 year old ,novarossi,octura prop,ops pipe 3280 in a crapshooter or intrepid or Ron V boat running at peak performance due to the optimim setup. There is one part of the total race program were I would agree could use some R&D. PROPELLERS. Why props ,because most of the props are 25 -35 years old and only run 80-85% efficient. The gains in technology over the last 25-30 years in engine and hull developement has yielded boat combinations that are running close to the point of deminshing returns. I went to the 1999 nats in Huntsville Alabama and ran a seaducer 21 for the first time. I barrowed the boat and lost the radio in the first test session were it ran upside down across the lake for a full tank of fuel. I won all heats excluding one were i got second. Was I the fastest. 43 mph no. But nobody could beat me in the turns. I never lifted my finger going around the course and pulled 30 feet in every turn,why SETUP.

I raced CF orlic hulls and beat them with heavier RR hulls . Why setup. Don't get me wrong if your running caveman technology Veco 19, K&b 21. Then new hulls and engines will matter. But in the last 10 years ever since the novarossi 10 port came out. What does Andys MAC 21 have over all the other engines that made it in a league of its own. He got the engine setup finally down . I today am running 56 mph on my 21 mono due to a prop I found picked up 6-7 mph and then modified it. I am running alot faster Not by reinventing the wheel but by making the wheel run more effiecient.

Dan:

You will find that VERY FEW people that have .21 boats running very very well. Most of it is boat setup. I spend hours on boat setup and that really pays off. I also spend a ton of time with props. By the way, I have not let it be known until now that Frank Bonanno has made a Prop Duplicator off of my current best prop (1450). In fact he has made 2 duplicators, one for each blade, since my prop has different configuration on both blades. I tried a prop with both blades bent of the A Duplicator and both blades bent on the B Duplicator. Neither prop was nearly as good as a prop bent using both duplicators. Frank told me that he has those duplicators available. I did this since I didn't want to not have a way to duplicate my best 20 prop ever. Now I am protected on that. AND, I decided to allow him to sell them.

As for running 43 mph with your mono and beating everyone in the turns - I can appreciate that since I also concentrate on turn speed.

Time spent refining your 20 hydro pays huge dividends.

As for your question about Andy's MAC 21. It is what I still run, for a couple reasons. It is a rear exhaust as the number 1 reason and I have a few that I can interchange with all running well. I would be equally happy with a Nova Rossi, except for the lack of a rear exhaust engine. I ran NR for many years with great success and reliability. If NR all of a sudden came out with a rear exhaust engine, I would probably switch unless Andy produced a new MAC.

Marty,

What do you find to be an advantage of the rear exhaust engines? I've run both and prefer the ease of being able to R&R the belt or shaft without removing the pipe. Also, with one twist of the belt it's out of the way and not being burned by the pipe of header. Not to mention the Nova's tend to pull more prop. Oh ya, and the new engine costs $215.00 and your choice is obsolete. Makes it a no brainer for me.

Ron

Ron:

Sure can't argue with $215

I just like the clean shape of the boat without the pipe hanging out the side.

I don't agree at all with you about the NR pulling more prop though.... Guess it is how the engine is set up. I ran NR for many years so I am in a good position to make the statement that the NR does not pull more prop. I am running a much different head configuration that I was running on the NR now on the MAC so it is really not a fair comparison. I would have to build a NR with my current design and then I could say for sure.

Marty,

All I know, is around here the Mac .21/ NovaRossi is like comparing the CMB RS .45 to a Picco Blackhead. There's just no comparison. Maybe it's the air

Ron

Ron:

If I were going to run 45 class, the CMB RS would be the engine that I would run..... It is an awesome engine with tons of torque, great RPM and durable. What more could you want?

Marty Davis

Marty,

Have you actually run one of the RS .45 engines? Great RPM I agree, but way down on torque and they're a maintenance nightmare. Try getting someone to change the rod for you. I had to send mine to England for service. Oh, and they come with 20thou disk clearance. I understand from expert engine builders that the case volume is too big, thus having to prop down and work at RPM for speed. Again, I don't know about Florida but the fastest .40 hydro's around here are still running Picco's.

Also, I read back to the front page where you claim to only be able to pull a Barr cut 1450. I run a full blade with added cup and Zaker claims to run the 1650 bag if I remember correctly. Must be the Geraghty carb???

Ron

 

[Chris Wood]

ron,

if you ever need the 45rs worked on let me know.. my father can take it all apart no problem so no need to send it to england.

i also run a 1450 full blade.. and i have tried a 1650 with the square wave but seen no difference..

what i have learned from this thread.

everyone has there own way of doing things. and what works for me might not for you.. it isn't how you get there, just get there.. so i will continue to do what i do and try to learn new things along the way.

chris

 

[Marty Davis]

About two years ago someone make a video of someone running a orlic carbon fiber 21 hydro at a canadian race. It ran 80mph CONSISTENT heat after heat and blew away all other riggers regardless of size. Correct me if Iam wrong ,if the fastest 21 riggers at the nats are running upper 60s to lower 70s mph CONSISTANTLY IN HEAT RACING FORM, with off the shelf technology (novarossi engine, abc prop,someones 21 pipe ,and standard hardware) why are there so many of you 21 gurus reinventing the wheel? Say the average 21 rigger at the nats is running a true 70 mph. And for argument sake after all your R&D in your pipes and props and hulls you picked up 10% gain in mph. That would be 7 mph gain for all your work. On a average you still you be 3 mph slower then this canadian guy running a CF 21 rigger at a true 80 mph. WHATS MY POINT YOU ASK? The technology already exits in most circumstances to really fast. Is it not that this canadian guy who said Frank Orlic did everything master the setup of the boat ? Even the CF hull ,which is a special custom hull, runs a lot different then the average 21 rigger. MORE POSITIVE. Maybe this 80 mph rigger mastered the setup then reinventing the wheel in new technology. Setup considerations- 1. less drag on hull. 2. weight distrubution 3. engine setup combination. 4. pipe length. 5. strut position. 6. boat running at peak rpm band. Here in district 3 10-12 years ago a father /son team would take off the shelf parts and setup a 21 rigger and test for hours and sometimes days till they mastered the setup. And nobody could beat them when they were on there game. The father and son team I am talking about was Stan Simpson and his father for Jacksonville Fla. They showed me that setup is evrything. Is it that they would just work at it until it was right were most modelers won't. Dan Mccormick District 3 namba

Dan:

I saw one of Franco's Carbon boats run many years ago when Ron VanWagnen spanked most everyone with it.

It was super fast and dominated the race that I saw it at.

It did not turn as well as some I have seen and the extra speed was given up in that way.

IF that boat was optimized in turning ability it would be hard to beat by the best.

It was awesome in speed.

MARTY: Your remark regarding Rons CF boat confirms my point. I am still running the same pipe I started with 29 years ago .OPS 3280 pipe And as become the 21 pipe to have in metal or carbon.

Tell me Marty what new hull design ,pipe design, prop design ,engine design that would truely outperform a 10 year old ,novarossi,octura prop,ops pipe 3280 in a crapshooter or intrepid or Ron V boat running at peak performance due to the optimim setup. There is one part of the total race program were I would agree could use some R&D. PROPELLERS. Why props ,because most of the props are 25 -35 years old and only run 80-85% efficient. The gains in technology over the last 25-30 years in engine and hull developement has yielded boat combinations that are running close to the point of deminshing returns. I went to the 1999 nats in Huntsville Alabama and ran a seaducer 21 for the first time. I barrowed the boat and lost the radio in the first test session were it ran upside down across the lake for a full tank of fuel. I won all heats excluding one were i got second. Was I the fastest. 43 mph no. But nobody could beat me in the turns. I never lifted my finger going around the course and pulled 30 feet in every turn,why SETUP.

I raced CF orlic hulls and beat them with heavier RR hulls . Why setup. Don't get me wrong if your running caveman technology Veco 19, K&b 21. Then new hulls and engines will matter. But in the last 10 years ever since the novarossi 10 port came out. What does Andys MAC 21 have over all the other engines that made it in a league of its own. He got the engine setup finally down . I today am running 56 mph on my 21 mono due to a prop I found picked up 6-7 mph and then modified it. I am running alot faster Not by reinventing the wheel but by making the wheel run more effiecient.

Dan:

You will find that VERY FEW people that have .21 boats running very very well. Most of it is boat setup. I spend hours on boat setup and that really pays off. I also spend a ton of time with props. By the way, I have not let it be known until now that Frank Bonanno has made a Prop Duplicator off of my current best prop (1450). In fact he has made 2 duplicators, one for each blade, since my prop has different configuration on both blades. I tried a prop with both blades bent of the A Duplicator and both blades bent on the B Duplicator. Neither prop was nearly as good as a prop bent using both duplicators. Frank told me that he has those duplicators available. I did this since I didn't want to not have a way to duplicate my best 20 prop ever. Now I am protected on that. AND, I decided to allow him to sell them.

As for running 43 mph with your mono and beating everyone in the turns - I can appreciate that since I also concentrate on turn speed.

Time spent refining your 20 hydro pays huge dividends.

As for your question about Andy's MAC 21. It is what I still run, for a couple reasons. It is a rear exhaust as the number 1 reason and I have a few that I can interchange with all running well. I would be equally happy with a Nova Rossi, except for the lack of a rear exhaust engine. I ran NR for many years with great success and reliability. If NR all of a sudden came out with a rear exhaust engine, I would probably switch unless Andy produced a new MAC.

Marty,

What do you find to be an advantage of the rear exhaust engines? I've run both and prefer the ease of being able to R&R the belt or shaft without removing the pipe. Also, with one twist of the belt it's out of the way and not being burned by the pipe of header. Not to mention the Nova's tend to pull more prop. Oh ya, and the new engine costs $215.00 and your choice is obsolete. Makes it a no brainer for me.

Ron

Ron:

Sure can't argue with $215

I just like the clean shape of the boat without the pipe hanging out the side.

I don't agree at all with you about the NR pulling more prop though.... Guess it is how the engine is set up. I ran NR for many years so I am in a good position to make the statement that the NR does not pull more prop. I am running a much different head configuration that I was running on the NR now on the MAC so it is really not a fair comparison. I would have to build a NR with my current design and then I could say for sure.

Marty,

All I know, is around here the Mac .21/ NovaRossi is like comparing the CMB RS .45 to a Picco Blackhead. There's just no comparison. Maybe it's the air

Ron

Ron:

If I were going to run 45 class, the CMB RS would be the engine that I would run..... It is an awesome engine with tons of torque, great RPM and durable. What more could you want?

Marty Davis

Marty,

Have you actually run one of the RS .45 engines? Great RPM I agree, but way down on torque and they're a maintenance nightmare. Try getting someone to change the rod for you. I had to send mine to England for service. Oh, and they come with 20thou disk clearance. I understand from expert engine builders that the case volume is too big, thus having to prop down and work at RPM for speed. Again, I don't know about Florida but the fastest .40 hydro's around here are still running Picco's.

Also, I read back to the front page where you claim to only be able to pull a Barr cut 1450. I run a full blade with added cup and Zaker claims to run the 1650 bag if I remember correctly. Must be the Geraghty carb???

Ron

I designed a boat for Rod Hendricks here and we put an RS45 in it. He has 2 of those engines. It will easily pull a pitched up 1657 and runs 80 in hea race trim. Launches perfectly and does not detonate. We timed the engine with 30 degrees of blow down time and the compression ratio higher than most would run. It is an awesome engine and the combination was good enough to win at Atlanta Last year against some of the better 40 hydros around. We also ran a MAC 45 in it before the RS and there was no comparison in performance.

As for the prop that I run on my 20 boat. It is a Barr Back Cut 1450 (old style) and it is the prop that I have been running for many years. That is the reason that I had a duplicator made from it so that I could protect the best prop that I have ever had. I have a couple props that are faster than it but I like the way that it races. It comes out of the turns like a bullet and has about 72-73 SAW speed. The other two props are a few MPH faster. The boat will pull a full bladed S15 but that is not a good race prop. I used that for SAW and it was an 86 mph prop. I am not able to pull a full bladed 1650 in heat race trim but it will launch for SAW. With the strut arrangement that Ron Z is using, it makes it much easier to launch big props. That is an advantage is set up correctly. We will have to see if it is dominant.... Might be something that needs re-visited.

 

[NOVALTD]

Dan,You asked to be corrected if wrong. Your statement that Mark Grim ran a Mac-21 is incorrect. He runs a CMB-21 Valvoa that has been "Blue Printed" to his likeing!!!!!

Don

ps Hi Jack!

HI DON. Thanks for the correction. If Mark worked on the engine its news to me. Did he break the record with a heat racing boat called the California Special?

Hi Jack - Your right regarding R&D . RC boat racing would not be anywhere without R&D. I was just trying to make the the point for most rc boat racers that there is other options for running extremally fast without having to do redesign parts. Like I said if you want to do R&D knock yourself out ,but expect little to nothing for your efforts. I advocate using proven designs and getting them to run more efficient . Could you tell us what R&D Mark did on his record breaking 21.

BTW- What is the latest speeds you are getting in your speed breaking car? I heard you broke 201 mph?

Thanks DAN

 

[Charles Perdue]

Dan,You asked to be corrected if wrong. Your statement that Mark Grim ran a Mac-21 is incorrect. He runs a CMB-21 Valvoa that has been "Blue Printed" to his likeing!!!!!

Don

ps Hi Jack!

HI DON. Thanks for the correction. If Mark worked on the engine its news to me. Did he break the record with a heat racing boat called the California Special?

Hi Jack - Your right regarding R&D . RC boat racing would not be anywhere without R&D. I was just trying to make the the point for most rc boat racers that there is other options for running extremally fast without having to do redesign parts. Like I said if you want to do R&D knock yourself out ,but expect little to nothing for your efforts. I advocate using proven designs and getting them to run more efficient . Could you tell us what R&D Mark did on his record breaking 21.

BTW- What is the latest speeds you are getting in your speed breaking car? I heard you broke 201 mph?

Thanks DAN

Hello Dan, I totally disagree with your way of thinking.

Without innovation we would still be walking on all fours and trying to catch supper with our bare hands.

Just kidding, it is true that everything that we try doesn't work as we planned but even then we learn from our mistakes. Without innovation and R&D where would we be. Part of the challenge in doing something is trying to make it better. For me anyway.

I have known Mark Grim for many years and the word stock isn't even in his vocabulary. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Charles

 

[Marty Davis]

Dan,You asked to be corrected if wrong. Your statement that Mark Grim ran a Mac-21 is incorrect. He runs a CMB-21 Valvoa that has been "Blue Printed" to his likeing!!!!!

Don

ps Hi Jack!

HI DON. Thanks for the correction. If Mark worked on the engine its news to me. Did he break the record with a heat racing boat called the California Special?

Hi Jack - Your right regarding R&D . RC boat racing would not be anywhere without R&D. I was just trying to make the the point for most rc boat racers that there is other options for running extremally fast without having to do redesign parts. Like I said if you want to do R&D knock yourself out ,but expect little to nothing for your efforts. I advocate using proven designs and getting them to run more efficient . Could you tell us what R&D Mark did on his record breaking 21.

BTW- What is the latest speeds you are getting in your speed breaking car? I heard you broke 201 mph?

Thanks DAN

Hello Dan, I totally disagree with your way of thinking.

Without innovation we would still be walking on all fours and trying to catch supper with our bare hands.

Just kidding, it is true that everything that we try doesn't work as we planned but even then we learn from our mistakes. Without innovation and R&D where would we be. Part of the challenge in doing something is trying to make it better. For me anyway.

I have known Mark Grim for many years and the word stock isn't even in his vocabulary. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Charles

Charles:

I also agree with you and disagree with Dan. But that is what makes any hobby fun, each person has his own goals and motivations.

Can you imagine how BORING model boat racing would be without inovation and challenges to make something better? I get almost as much satisfcation in figuring out a better way than actually racing.

 

[Jack ODonnell]

Dan,You asked to be corrected if wrong. Your statement that Mark Grim ran a Mac-21 is incorrect. He runs a CMB-21 Valvoa that has been "Blue Printed" to his likeing!!!!!

Don

ps Hi Jack!

HI DON. Thanks for the correction. If Mark worked on the engine its news to me. Did he break the record with a heat racing boat called the California Special?

Hi Jack - Your right regarding R&D . RC boat racing would not be anywhere without R&D. I was just trying to make the the point for most rc boat racers that there is other options for running extremally fast without having to do redesign parts. Like I said if you want to do R&D knock yourself out ,but expect little to nothing for your efforts. I advocate using proven designs and getting them to run more efficient . Could you tell us what R&D Mark did on his record breaking 21.

BTW- What is the latest speeds you are getting in your speed breaking car? I heard you broke 201 mph?

Thanks DAN Hi Dan; You must ask Mark about the R&D he did on the record breaking 21. I know for a fact he did the design and built the boat.And it will take a lot of R&D to go faster than what Mark has done. It takes a lot of effort to go fast with a straight line boats.I do not understand your comment of (expect little to nothing for the R&D work) I expect to go faster every time i run.If not where would the challenge and fun be. As for the car speed my best is 208 mph Thanks Jack

 

[NOVALTD]

MARTY: Did anything ever materialize from Dee Hughys Dial-a Prop. Was there ever a prop that he or his brother ED did that yeilded a competive propeller? Did the silver solder hold up or break?. Is there a picture of Rons new boat 21 rigger we can see? Thanks DAN

 

[Charles Perdue]

Dan,You asked to be corrected if wrong. Your statement that Mark Grim ran a Mac-21 is incorrect. He runs a CMB-21 Valvoa that has been "Blue Printed" to his likeing!!!!!

Don

ps Hi Jack!

HI DON. Thanks for the correction. If Mark worked on the engine its news to me. Did he break the record with a heat racing boat called the California Special?

Hi Jack - Your right regarding R&D . RC boat racing would not be anywhere without R&D. I was just trying to make the the point for most rc boat racers that there is other options for running extremally fast without having to do redesign parts. Like I said if you want to do R&D knock yourself out ,but expect little to nothing for your efforts. I advocate using proven designs and getting them to run more efficient . Could you tell us what R&D Mark did on his record breaking 21.

BTW- What is the latest speeds you are getting in your speed breaking car? I heard you broke 201 mph?

Thanks DAN

Hello Dan, I totally disagree with your way of thinking.

Without innovation we would still be walking on all fours and trying to catch supper with our bare hands.

Just kidding, it is true that everything that we try doesn't work as we planned but even then we learn from our mistakes. Without innovation and R&D where would we be. Part of the challenge in doing something is trying to make it better. For me anyway.

I have known Mark Grim for many years and the word stock isn't even in his vocabulary. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Charles

Charles:

I also agree with you and disagree with Dan. But that is what makes any hobby fun, each person has his own goals and motivations.

Can you imagine how BORING model boat racing would be without inovation and challenges to make something better? I get almost as much satisfcation in figuring out a better way than actually racing.

ME TOO!!!!!

Charles

 

[Ron Zaker Jr]

MARTY: Did anything ever materialize from Dee Hughys Dial-a Prop. Was there ever a prop that he or his brother ED did that yeilded a competive propeller? Did the silver solder hold up or break?. Is there a picture of Rons new boat 21 rigger we can see? Thanks DAN

post #29 in this thread.

Ron Jr

 

[Marty Davis]

MARTY: Did anything ever materialize from Dee Hughys Dial-a Prop. Was there ever a prop that he or his brother ED did that yeilded a competive propeller? Did the silver solder hold up or break?. Is there a picture of Rons new boat 21 rigger we can see? Thanks DAN

Yes there were many props that were great. I had one that I won a US#1 in 20 hydro class. No problem with the soldering holding up.

Me too, is it STOK?

 

[AndyBrown]

Dan,You asked to be corrected if wrong. Your statement that Mark Grim ran a Mac-21 is incorrect. He runs a CMB-21 Valvoa that has been "Blue Printed" to his likeing!!!!!

Don

ps Hi Jack!

HI DON. Thanks for the correction. If Mark worked on the engine its news to me. Did he break the record with a heat racing boat called the California Special?

Hi Jack - Your right regarding R&D . RC boat racing would not be anywhere without R&D. I was just trying to make the the point for most rc boat racers that there is other options for running extremally fast without having to do redesign parts. Like I said if you want to do R&D knock yourself out ,but expect little to nothing for your efforts. I advocate using proven designs and getting them to run more efficient . Could you tell us what R&D Mark did on his record breaking 21.

BTW- What is the latest speeds you are getting in your speed breaking car? I heard you broke 201 mph?

Thanks DAN

Hello Dan, I totally disagree with your way of thinking.

Without innovation we would still be walking on all fours and trying to catch supper with our bare hands.

Just kidding, it is true that everything that we try doesn't work as we planned but even then we learn from our mistakes. Without innovation and R&D where would we be. Part of the challenge in doing something is trying to make it better. For me anyway.

I have known Mark Grim for many years and the word stock isn't even in his vocabulary. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Charles

Charles:

I also agree with you and disagree with Dan. But that is what makes any hobby fun, each person has his own goals and motivations.

Can you imagine how BORING model boat racing would be without inovation and challenges to make something better? I get almost as much satisfcation in figuring out a better way than actually racing.

"Can you imagine how BORING model boat racing would be without inovation and challenges to make something better?"

Yes, It would be kinda like Socialism.....as in everyone gets a trophy......as in poor performing businesses getting BAILOUTS!!!

OK, That takes care of my political "vent" for the day!

 

[Marty Davis]

Dan,You asked to be corrected if wrong. Your statement that Mark Grim ran a Mac-21 is incorrect. He runs a CMB-21 Valvoa that has been "Blue Printed" to his likeing!!!!!

Don

ps Hi Jack!

HI DON. Thanks for the correction. If Mark worked on the engine its news to me. Did he break the record with a heat racing boat called the California Special?

Hi Jack - Your right regarding R&D . RC boat racing would not be anywhere without R&D. I was just trying to make the the point for most rc boat racers that there is other options for running extremally fast without having to do redesign parts. Like I said if you want to do R&D knock yourself out ,but expect little to nothing for your efforts. I advocate using proven designs and getting them to run more efficient . Could you tell us what R&D Mark did on his record breaking 21.

BTW- What is the latest speeds you are getting in your speed breaking car? I heard you broke 201 mph?

Thanks DAN

Hello Dan, I totally disagree with your way of thinking.

Without innovation we would still be walking on all fours and trying to catch supper with our bare hands.

Just kidding, it is true that everything that we try doesn't work as we planned but even then we learn from our mistakes. Without innovation and R&D where would we be. Part of the challenge in doing something is trying to make it better. For me anyway.

I have known Mark Grim for many years and the word stock isn't even in his vocabulary. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Charles

Charles:

I also agree with you and disagree with Dan. But that is what makes any hobby fun, each person has his own goals and motivations.

Can you imagine how BORING model boat racing would be without inovation and challenges to make something better? I get almost as much satisfcation in figuring out a better way than actually racing.

"Can you imagine how BORING model boat racing would be without inovation and challenges to make something better?"

Yes, It would be kinda like Socialism.....as in everyone gets a trophy......as in poor performing businesses getting BAILOUTS!!!

OK, That takes care of my political "vent" for the day!

Andy:

You haven't seen anything YET....