21 Hydro Propellers

[Grimracer]

Lets go Indy.. Im 2 hours away.. lets do it.. im in.

Grim

 

[SayMikey]

Lets go Indy.. Im 2 hours away.. lets do it.. im in.
Grim

Count me in and i can help where needed since the Indy club is so small.

 

[gooycheese]

I volunteer to help, lets race I am ready

Paul

Is it time to race yet?

 

[Walt Barney]

I volunteer to help, lets race I am ready


Paul

Is it time to race yet?

Paul,

You cannot race your water is to hard.... now down here in Flordia it was 80 to day B)

Walt Barney

 

[Ron Zaker Jr]

Ron,
I run an S-15 with #2 profile and I've had great results.

You run the 1650 rather high on the strut or as deep as others?

Nova power correct? What pipe are you currently running?

Thanks,

Mark Sholund

Same strut setting,in fact basically non adjustable at the moment. Yes Nova L/S and OPS 3280/ CD Machine silencer.

Nice boat Ron, but I'm kind of surprised that you run OPS pipe not square wave. I'm curious what did OPS pipe give you that square wave did not.

Hi frank I just saw your question. Ran out of time.,I went with the engine /pipe right out of my Ninja. The square wave will be on it soon.

 

[Richard Dahlheimer]

Ron,
I run an S-15 with #2 profile and I've had great results.

You run the 1650 rather high on the strut or as deep as others?

Nova power correct? What pipe are you currently running?

Thanks,

Mark Sholund

Same strut setting,in fact basically non adjustable at the moment. Yes Nova L/S and OPS 3280/ CD Machine silencer.

Nice boat Ron, but I'm kind of surprised that you run OPS pipe not square wave. I'm curious what did OPS pipe give you that square wave did not.

Hi frank I just saw your question. Ran out of time.,I went with the engine /pipe right out of my Ninja. The square wave will be on it soon.

Hello Ron, could you provide info on which square wave pipe you have? carbon or? Thanks, Richard

 

[NOVALTD]

About two years ago someone make a video of someone running a orlic carbon fiber 21 hydro at a canadian race. It ran 80mph CONSISTENT heat after heat and blew away all other riggers regardless of size. Correct me if Iam wrong ,if the fastest 21 riggers at the nats are running upper 60s to lower 70s mph CONSISTANTLY IN HEAT RACING FORM, with off the shelf technology (novarossi engine, abc prop,someones 21 pipe ,and standard hardware) why are there so many of you 21 gurus reinventing the wheel? Say the average 21 rigger at the nats is running a true 70 mph. And for argument sake after all your R&D in your pipes and props and hulls you picked up 10% gain in mph. That would be 7 mph gain for all your work. On a average you still you be 3 mph slower then this canadian guy running a CF 21 rigger at a true 80 mph. WHATS MY POINT YOU ASK? The technology already exits in most circumstances to really fast. Is it not that this canadian guy who said Frank Orlic did everything master the setup of the boat ? Even the CF hull ,which is a special custom hull, runs a lot different then the average 21 rigger. MORE POSITIVE. Maybe this 80 mph rigger mastered the setup then reinventing the wheel in new technology. Setup considerations- 1. less drag on hull. 2. weight distrubution 3. engine setup combination. 4. pipe length. 5. strut position. 6. boat running at peak rpm band.

Here in district 3 10-12 years ago a father /son team would take off the shelf parts and setup a 21 rigger and test for hours and sometimes days till they mastered the setup. And nobody could beat them when they were on there game. The father and son team I am talking about was Stan Simpson and his father for Jacksonville Fla. They showed me that setup is evrything. Is it that they would just work at it until it was right were most modelers won't. Dan Mccormick District 3 namba

 

[BobFerguson]

Ron, Chris,

what are you guys talking about with the new format.As you know im new to the racing side of model boats i dont want to be in the dark when i get there. sounds like it will fun cant wait to go back.........Bob Ferguson JAGUAR HYDROS...................................................................

 

[Chris Wood]

Hey bob.

the old format used to run like this.

you get there friday morning.. you sign a sheet to be put on a list to QUALIFY.. you have i believe 5 mins to make your best passes in a 2 lap time.. then that time determined where you was in the mains.. they used to have A -Z mains in theory.. however many it took for the amount of people.

so you may get bumped off the A main and put into the C main.. you could opt to get back on the list and go again but you would forfit your current time.. and you chance possibly not even getting a time if you went back out and died.

once you qualifyed and the mains started the top 1 or 2 boats transfered to the next main. Until finally the A was set.

it was cool but need a little tweeking to speed things up.

dan. not i doubt the video.. but 80 is REALLY REALLY hard to do let alone RACE that speed.

at the first jackson tn nats my boat was clocked at 73 in a RACE.. it was smoking.. so i just can't amagine 80 in a heat.. but maybe with z man's new boat he will find that.. we will see.

chris

 

[Marty Davis]

About two years ago someone make a video of someone running a orlic carbon fiber 21 hydro at a canadian race. It ran 80mph CONSISTENT heat after heat and blew away all other riggers regardless of size. Correct me if Iam wrong ,if the fastest 21 riggers at the nats are running upper 60s to lower 70s mph CONSISTANTLY IN HEAT RACING FORM, with off the shelf technology (novarossi engine, abc prop,someones 21 pipe ,and standard hardware) why are there so many of you 21 gurus reinventing the wheel? Say the average 21 rigger at the nats is running a true 70 mph. And for argument sake after all your R&D in your pipes and props and hulls you picked up 10% gain in mph. That would be 7 mph gain for all your work. On a average you still you be 3 mph slower then this canadian guy running a CF 21 rigger at a true 80 mph. WHATS MY POINT YOU ASK? The technology already exits in most circumstances to really fast. Is it not that this canadian guy who said Frank Orlic did everything master the setup of the boat ? Even the CF hull ,which is a special custom hull, runs a lot different then the average 21 rigger. MORE POSITIVE. Maybe this 80 mph rigger mastered the setup then reinventing the wheel in new technology. Setup considerations- 1. less drag on hull. 2. weight distrubution 3. engine setup combination. 4. pipe length. 5. strut position. 6. boat running at peak rpm band. Here in district 3 10-12 years ago a father /son team would take off the shelf parts and setup a 21 rigger and test for hours and sometimes days till they mastered the setup. And nobody could beat them when they were on there game. The father and son team I am talking about was Stan Simpson and his father for Jacksonville Fla. They showed me that setup is evrything. Is it that they would just work at it until it was right were most modelers won't. Dan Mccormick District 3 namba

Dan:

I saw one of Franco's Carbon boats run many years ago when Ron VanWagnen spanked most everyone with it.

It was super fast and dominated the race that I saw it at.

It did not turn as well as some I have seen and the extra speed was given up in that way.

IF that boat was optimized in turning ability it would be hard to beat by the best.

It was awesome in speed.

 

[Ron Zaker Jr]

Ron,
I run an S-15 with #2 profile and I've had great results.

You run the 1650 rather high on the strut or as deep as others?

Nova power correct? What pipe are you currently running?

Thanks,

Mark Sholund

Same strut setting,in fact basically non adjustable at the moment. Yes Nova L/S and OPS 3280/ CD Machine silencer.

Nice boat Ron, but I'm kind of surprised that you run OPS pipe not square wave. I'm curious what did OPS pipe give you that square wave did not.

Hi frank I just saw your question. Ran out of time.,I went with the engine /pipe right out of my Ninja. The square wave will be on it soon.

Hello Ron, could you provide info on which square wave pipe you have? carbon or? Thanks, Richard

It's just the carbon one.

 

[NOVALTD]

About two years ago someone make a video of someone running a orlic carbon fiber 21 hydro at a canadian race. It ran 80mph CONSISTENT heat after heat and blew away all other riggers regardless of size. Correct me if Iam wrong ,if the fastest 21 riggers at the nats are running upper 60s to lower 70s mph CONSISTANTLY IN HEAT RACING FORM, with off the shelf technology (novarossi engine, abc prop,someones 21 pipe ,and standard hardware) why are there so many of you 21 gurus reinventing the wheel? Say the average 21 rigger at the nats is running a true 70 mph. And for argument sake after all your R&D in your pipes and props and hulls you picked up 10% gain in mph. That would be 7 mph gain for all your work. On a average you still you be 3 mph slower then this canadian guy running a CF 21 rigger at a true 80 mph. WHATS MY POINT YOU ASK? The technology already exits in most circumstances to really fast. Is it not that this canadian guy who said Frank Orlic did everything master the setup of the boat ? Even the CF hull ,which is a special custom hull, runs a lot different then the average 21 rigger. MORE POSITIVE. Maybe this 80 mph rigger mastered the setup then reinventing the wheel in new technology. Setup considerations- 1. less drag on hull. 2. weight distrubution 3. engine setup combination. 4. pipe length. 5. strut position. 6. boat running at peak rpm band. Here in district 3 10-12 years ago a father /son team would take off the shelf parts and setup a 21 rigger and test for hours and sometimes days till they mastered the setup. And nobody could beat them when they were on there game. The father and son team I am talking about was Stan Simpson and his father for Jacksonville Fla. They showed me that setup is evrything. Is it that they would just work at it until it was right were most modelers won't. Dan Mccormick District 3 namba

Dan:

I saw one of Franco's Carbon boats run many years ago when Ron VanWagnen spanked most everyone with it.

It was super fast and dominated the race that I saw it at.

It did not turn as well as some I have seen and the extra speed was given up in that way.

IF that boat was optimized in turning ability it would be hard to beat by the best.

It was awesome in speed.

MARTY: Your remark regarding Rons CF boat confirms my point. I am still running the same pipe I started with 29 years ago .OPS 3280 pipe And as become the 21 pipe to have in metal or carbon.

Tell me Marty what new hull design ,pipe design, prop design ,engine design that would truely outperform a 10 year old ,novarossi,octura prop,ops pipe 3280 in a crapshooter or intrepid or Ron V boat running at peak performance due to the optimim setup. There is one part of the total race program were I would agree could use some R&D. PROPELLERS. Why props ,because most of the props are 25 -35 years old and only run 80-85% efficient. The gains in technology over the last 25-30 years in engine and hull developement has yielded boat combinations that are running close to the point of deminshing returns. I went to the 1999 nats in Huntsville Alabama and ran a seaducer 21 for the first time. I barrowed the boat and lost the radio in the first test session were it ran upside down across the lake for a full tank of fuel. I won all heats excluding one were i got second. Was I the fastest. 43 mph no. But nobody could beat me in the turns. I never lifted my finger going around the course and pulled 30 feet in every turn,why SETUP.

I raced CF orlic hulls and beat them with heavier RR hulls . Why setup. Don't get me wrong if your running caveman technology Veco 19, K&b 21. Then new hulls and engines will matter. But in the last 10 years ever since the novarossi 10 port came out. What does Andys MAC 21 have over all the other engines that made it in a league of its own. He got the engine setup finally down . I today am running 56 mph on my 21 mono due to a prop I found picked up 6-7 mph and then modified it. I am running alot faster Not by reinventing the wheel but by making the wheel run more effiecient.

 

[Marty Davis]

About two years ago someone make a video of someone running a orlic carbon fiber 21 hydro at a canadian race. It ran 80mph CONSISTENT heat after heat and blew away all other riggers regardless of size. Correct me if Iam wrong ,if the fastest 21 riggers at the nats are running upper 60s to lower 70s mph CONSISTANTLY IN HEAT RACING FORM, with off the shelf technology (novarossi engine, abc prop,someones 21 pipe ,and standard hardware) why are there so many of you 21 gurus reinventing the wheel? Say the average 21 rigger at the nats is running a true 70 mph. And for argument sake after all your R&D in your pipes and props and hulls you picked up 10% gain in mph. That would be 7 mph gain for all your work. On a average you still you be 3 mph slower then this canadian guy running a CF 21 rigger at a true 80 mph. WHATS MY POINT YOU ASK? The technology already exits in most circumstances to really fast. Is it not that this canadian guy who said Frank Orlic did everything master the setup of the boat ? Even the CF hull ,which is a special custom hull, runs a lot different then the average 21 rigger. MORE POSITIVE. Maybe this 80 mph rigger mastered the setup then reinventing the wheel in new technology. Setup considerations- 1. less drag on hull. 2. weight distrubution 3. engine setup combination. 4. pipe length. 5. strut position. 6. boat running at peak rpm band. Here in district 3 10-12 years ago a father /son team would take off the shelf parts and setup a 21 rigger and test for hours and sometimes days till they mastered the setup. And nobody could beat them when they were on there game. The father and son team I am talking about was Stan Simpson and his father for Jacksonville Fla. They showed me that setup is evrything. Is it that they would just work at it until it was right were most modelers won't. Dan Mccormick District 3 namba

Dan:

I saw one of Franco's Carbon boats run many years ago when Ron VanWagnen spanked most everyone with it.

It was super fast and dominated the race that I saw it at.

It did not turn as well as some I have seen and the extra speed was given up in that way.

IF that boat was optimized in turning ability it would be hard to beat by the best.

It was awesome in speed.

MARTY: Your remark regarding Rons CF boat confirms my point. I am still running the same pipe I started with 29 years ago .OPS 3280 pipe And as become the 21 pipe to have in metal or carbon.

Tell me Marty what new hull design ,pipe design, prop design ,engine design that would truely outperform a 10 year old ,novarossi,octura prop,ops pipe 3280 in a crapshooter or intrepid or Ron V boat running at peak performance due to the optimim setup. There is one part of the total race program were I would agree could use some R&D. PROPELLERS. Why props ,because most of the props are 25 -35 years old and only run 80-85% efficient. The gains in technology over the last 25-30 years in engine and hull developement has yielded boat combinations that are running close to the point of deminshing returns. I went to the 1999 nats in Huntsville Alabama and ran a seaducer 21 for the first time. I barrowed the boat and lost the radio in the first test session were it ran upside down across the lake for a full tank of fuel. I won all heats excluding one were i got second. Was I the fastest. 43 mph no. But nobody could beat me in the turns. I never lifted my finger going around the course and pulled 30 feet in every turn,why SETUP.

I raced CF orlic hulls and beat them with heavier RR hulls . Why setup. Don't get me wrong if your running caveman technology Veco 19, K&b 21. Then new hulls and engines will matter. But in the last 10 years ever since the novarossi 10 port came out. What does Andys MAC 21 have over all the other engines that made it in a league of its own. He got the engine setup finally down . I today am running 56 mph on my 21 mono due to a prop I found picked up 6-7 mph and then modified it. I am running alot faster Not by reinventing the wheel but by making the wheel run more effiecient.

Dan:

You will find that VERY FEW people that have .21 boats running very very well. Most of it is boat setup. I spend hours on boat setup and that really pays off. I also spend a ton of time with props. By the way, I have not let it be known until now that Frank Bonanno has made a Prop Duplicator off of my current best prop (1450). In fact he has made 2 duplicators, one for each blade, since my prop has different configuration on both blades. I tried a prop with both blades bent of the A Duplicator and both blades bent on the B Duplicator. Neither prop was nearly as good as a prop bent using both duplicators. Frank told me that he has those duplicators available. I did this since I didn't want to not have a way to duplicate my best 20 prop ever. Now I am protected on that. AND, I decided to allow him to sell them.

As for running 43 mph with your mono and beating everyone in the turns - I can appreciate that since I also concentrate on turn speed.

Time spent refining your 20 hydro pays huge dividends.

As for your question about Andy's MAC 21. It is what I still run, for a couple reasons. It is a rear exhaust as the number 1 reason and I have a few that I can interchange with all running well. I would be equally happy with a Nova Rossi, except for the lack of a rear exhaust engine. I ran NR for many years with great success and reliability. If NR all of a sudden came out with a rear exhaust engine, I would probably switch unless Andy produced a new MAC.

 

[Richard Dahlheimer]

About two years ago someone make a video of someone running a orlic carbon fiber 21 hydro at a canadian race. It ran 80mph CONSISTENT heat after heat and blew away all other riggers regardless of size. Correct me if Iam wrong ,if the fastest 21 riggers at the nats are running upper 60s to lower 70s mph CONSISTANTLY IN HEAT RACING FORM, with off the shelf technology (novarossi engine, abc prop,someones 21 pipe ,and standard hardware) why are there so many of you 21 gurus reinventing the wheel? Say the average 21 rigger at the nats is running a true 70 mph. And for argument sake after all your R&D in your pipes and props and hulls you picked up 10% gain in mph. That would be 7 mph gain for all your work. On a average you still you be 3 mph slower then this canadian guy running a CF 21 rigger at a true 80 mph. WHATS MY POINT YOU ASK? The technology already exits in most circumstances to really fast. Is it not that this canadian guy who said Frank Orlic did everything master the setup of the boat ? Even the CF hull ,which is a special custom hull, runs a lot different then the average 21 rigger. MORE POSITIVE. Maybe this 80 mph rigger mastered the setup then reinventing the wheel in new technology. Setup considerations- 1. less drag on hull. 2. weight distrubution 3. engine setup combination. 4. pipe length. 5. strut position. 6. boat running at peak rpm band. Here in district 3 10-12 years ago a father /son team would take off the shelf parts and setup a 21 rigger and test for hours and sometimes days till they mastered the setup. And nobody could beat them when they were on there game. The father and son team I am talking about was Stan Simpson and his father for Jacksonville Fla. They showed me that setup is evrything. Is it that they would just work at it until it was right were most modelers won't. Dan Mccormick District 3 namba

Dan:

I saw one of Franco's Carbon boats run many years ago when Ron VanWagnen spanked most everyone with it.

It was super fast and dominated the race that I saw it at.

It did not turn as well as some I have seen and the extra speed was given up in that way.

IF that boat was optimized in turning ability it would be hard to beat by the best.

It was awesome in speed.

MARTY: Your remark regarding Rons CF boat confirms my point. I am still running the same pipe I started with 29 years ago .OPS 3280 pipe And as become the 21 pipe to have in metal or carbon.

Tell me Marty what new hull design ,pipe design, prop design ,engine design that would truely outperform a 10 year old ,novarossi,octura prop,ops pipe 3280 in a crapshooter or intrepid or Ron V boat running at peak performance due to the optimim setup. There is one part of the total race program were I would agree could use some R&D. PROPELLERS. Why props ,because most of the props are 25 -35 years old and only run 80-85% efficient. The gains in technology over the last 25-30 years in engine and hull developement has yielded boat combinations that are running close to the point of deminshing returns. I went to the 1999 nats in Huntsville Alabama and ran a seaducer 21 for the first time. I barrowed the boat and lost the radio in the first test session were it ran upside down across the lake for a full tank of fuel. I won all heats excluding one were i got second. Was I the fastest. 43 mph no. But nobody could beat me in the turns. I never lifted my finger going around the course and pulled 30 feet in every turn,why SETUP.

I raced CF orlic hulls and beat them with heavier RR hulls . Why setup. Don't get me wrong if your running caveman technology Veco 19, K&b 21. Then new hulls and engines will matter. But in the last 10 years ever since the novarossi 10 port came out. What does Andys MAC 21 have over all the other engines that made it in a league of its own. He got the engine setup finally down . I today am running 56 mph on my 21 mono due to a prop I found picked up 6-7 mph and then modified it. I am running alot faster Not by reinventing the wheel but by making the wheel run more effiecient.

Dan:

You will find that VERY FEW people that have .21 boats running very very well. Most of it is boat setup. I spend hours on boat setup and that really pays off. I also spend a ton of time with props. By the way, I have not let it be known until now that Frank Bonanno has made a Prop Duplicator off of my current best prop (1450). In fact he has made 2 duplicators, one for each blade, since my prop has different configuration on both blades. I tried a prop with both blades bent of the A Duplicator and both blades bent on the B Duplicator. Neither prop was nearly as good as a prop bent using both duplicators. Frank told me that he has those duplicators available. I did this since I didn't want to not have a way to duplicate my best 20 prop ever. Now I am protected on that. AND, I decided to allow him to sell them.

As for running 43 mph with your mono and beating everyone in the turns - I can appreciate that since I also concentrate on turn speed.

Time spent refining your 20 hydro pays huge dividends.

As for your question about Andy's MAC 21. It is what I still run, for a couple reasons. It is a rear exhaust as the number 1 reason and I have a few that I can interchange with all running well. I would be equally happy with a Nova Rossi, except for the lack of a rear exhaust engine. I ran NR for many years with great success and reliability. If NR all of a sudden came out with a rear exhaust engine, I would probably switch unless Andy produced a new MAC.

Marty, i read in another post that the 08 CMB .21 Red Head RSV was working great for you. What happened to make you switch back to the MAC? Richard D

 

[Ron Jefferson]

About two years ago someone make a video of someone running a orlic carbon fiber 21 hydro at a canadian race. It ran 80mph CONSISTENT heat after heat and blew away all other riggers regardless of size. Correct me if Iam wrong ,if the fastest 21 riggers at the nats are running upper 60s to lower 70s mph CONSISTANTLY IN HEAT RACING FORM, with off the shelf technology (novarossi engine, abc prop,someones 21 pipe ,and standard hardware) why are there so many of you 21 gurus reinventing the wheel? Say the average 21 rigger at the nats is running a true 70 mph. And for argument sake after all your R&D in your pipes and props and hulls you picked up 10% gain in mph. That would be 7 mph gain for all your work. On a average you still you be 3 mph slower then this canadian guy running a CF 21 rigger at a true 80 mph. WHATS MY POINT YOU ASK? The technology already exits in most circumstances to really fast. Is it not that this canadian guy who said Frank Orlic did everything master the setup of the boat ? Even the CF hull ,which is a special custom hull, runs a lot different then the average 21 rigger. MORE POSITIVE. Maybe this 80 mph rigger mastered the setup then reinventing the wheel in new technology. Setup considerations- 1. less drag on hull. 2. weight distrubution 3. engine setup combination. 4. pipe length. 5. strut position. 6. boat running at peak rpm band. Here in district 3 10-12 years ago a father /son team would take off the shelf parts and setup a 21 rigger and test for hours and sometimes days till they mastered the setup. And nobody could beat them when they were on there game. The father and son team I am talking about was Stan Simpson and his father for Jacksonville Fla. They showed me that setup is evrything. Is it that they would just work at it until it was right were most modelers won't. Dan Mccormick District 3 namba

Dan:

I saw one of Franco's Carbon boats run many years ago when Ron VanWagnen spanked most everyone with it.

It was super fast and dominated the race that I saw it at.

It did not turn as well as some I have seen and the extra speed was given up in that way.

IF that boat was optimized in turning ability it would be hard to beat by the best.

It was awesome in speed.

MARTY: Your remark regarding Rons CF boat confirms my point. I am still running the same pipe I started with 29 years ago .OPS 3280 pipe And as become the 21 pipe to have in metal or carbon.

Tell me Marty what new hull design ,pipe design, prop design ,engine design that would truely outperform a 10 year old ,novarossi,octura prop,ops pipe 3280 in a crapshooter or intrepid or Ron V boat running at peak performance due to the optimim setup. There is one part of the total race program were I would agree could use some R&D. PROPELLERS. Why props ,because most of the props are 25 -35 years old and only run 80-85% efficient. The gains in technology over the last 25-30 years in engine and hull developement has yielded boat combinations that are running close to the point of deminshing returns. I went to the 1999 nats in Huntsville Alabama and ran a seaducer 21 for the first time. I barrowed the boat and lost the radio in the first test session were it ran upside down across the lake for a full tank of fuel. I won all heats excluding one were i got second. Was I the fastest. 43 mph no. But nobody could beat me in the turns. I never lifted my finger going around the course and pulled 30 feet in every turn,why SETUP.

I raced CF orlic hulls and beat them with heavier RR hulls . Why setup. Don't get me wrong if your running caveman technology Veco 19, K&b 21. Then new hulls and engines will matter. But in the last 10 years ever since the novarossi 10 port came out. What does Andys MAC 21 have over all the other engines that made it in a league of its own. He got the engine setup finally down . I today am running 56 mph on my 21 mono due to a prop I found picked up 6-7 mph and then modified it. I am running alot faster Not by reinventing the wheel but by making the wheel run more effiecient.

Dan:

You will find that VERY FEW people that have .21 boats running very very well. Most of it is boat setup. I spend hours on boat setup and that really pays off. I also spend a ton of time with props. By the way, I have not let it be known until now that Frank Bonanno has made a Prop Duplicator off of my current best prop (1450). In fact he has made 2 duplicators, one for each blade, since my prop has different configuration on both blades. I tried a prop with both blades bent of the A Duplicator and both blades bent on the B Duplicator. Neither prop was nearly as good as a prop bent using both duplicators. Frank told me that he has those duplicators available. I did this since I didn't want to not have a way to duplicate my best 20 prop ever. Now I am protected on that. AND, I decided to allow him to sell them.

As for running 43 mph with your mono and beating everyone in the turns - I can appreciate that since I also concentrate on turn speed.

Time spent refining your 20 hydro pays huge dividends.

As for your question about Andy's MAC 21. It is what I still run, for a couple reasons. It is a rear exhaust as the number 1 reason and I have a few that I can interchange with all running well. I would be equally happy with a Nova Rossi, except for the lack of a rear exhaust engine. I ran NR for many years with great success and reliability. If NR all of a sudden came out with a rear exhaust engine, I would probably switch unless Andy produced a new MAC.

Marty,

What do you find to be an advantage of the rear exhaust engines? I've run both and prefer the ease of being able to R&R the belt or shaft without removing the pipe. Also, with one twist of the belt it's out of the way and not being burned by the pipe of header. Not to mention the Nova's tend to pull more prop. Oh ya, and the new engine costs $215.00 and your choice is obsolete. Makes it a no brainer for me.

Ron

 

[SayMikey]

About two years ago someone make a video of someone running a orlic carbon fiber 21 hydro at a canadian race. It ran 80mph CONSISTENT heat after heat and blew away all other riggers regardless of size. Correct me if Iam wrong ,if the fastest 21 riggers at the nats are running upper 60s to lower 70s mph CONSISTANTLY IN HEAT RACING FORM, with off the shelf technology (novarossi engine, abc prop,someones 21 pipe ,and standard hardware) why are there so many of you 21 gurus reinventing the wheel? Say the average 21 rigger at the nats is running a true 70 mph. And for argument sake after all your R&D in your pipes and props and hulls you picked up 10% gain in mph. That would be 7 mph gain for all your work. On a average you still you be 3 mph slower then this canadian guy running a CF 21 rigger at a true 80 mph. WHATS MY POINT YOU ASK? The technology already exits in most circumstances to really fast. Is it not that this canadian guy who said Frank Orlic did everything master the setup of the boat ? Even the CF hull ,which is a special custom hull, runs a lot different then the average 21 rigger. MORE POSITIVE. Maybe this 80 mph rigger mastered the setup then reinventing the wheel in new technology. Setup considerations- 1. less drag on hull. 2. weight distrubution 3. engine setup combination. 4. pipe length. 5. strut position. 6. boat running at peak rpm band. Here in district 3 10-12 years ago a father /son team would take off the shelf parts and setup a 21 rigger and test for hours and sometimes days till they mastered the setup. And nobody could beat them when they were on there game. The father and son team I am talking about was Stan Simpson and his father for Jacksonville Fla. They showed me that setup is evrything. Is it that they would just work at it until it was right were most modelers won't. Dan Mccormick District 3 namba

Dan:

I saw one of Franco's Carbon boats run many years ago when Ron VanWagnen spanked most everyone with it.

It was super fast and dominated the race that I saw it at.

It did not turn as well as some I have seen and the extra speed was given up in that way.

IF that boat was optimized in turning ability it would be hard to beat by the best.

It was awesome in speed.

MARTY: Your remark regarding Rons CF boat confirms my point. I am still running the same pipe I started with 29 years ago .OPS 3280 pipe And as become the 21 pipe to have in metal or carbon.

Tell me Marty what new hull design ,pipe design, prop design ,engine design that would truely outperform a 10 year old ,novarossi,octura prop,ops pipe 3280 in a crapshooter or intrepid or Ron V boat running at peak performance due to the optimim setup. There is one part of the total race program were I would agree could use some R&D. PROPELLERS. Why props ,because most of the props are 25 -35 years old and only run 80-85% efficient. The gains in technology over the last 25-30 years in engine and hull developement has yielded boat combinations that are running close to the point of deminshing returns. I went to the 1999 nats in Huntsville Alabama and ran a seaducer 21 for the first time. I barrowed the boat and lost the radio in the first test session were it ran upside down across the lake for a full tank of fuel. I won all heats excluding one were i got second. Was I the fastest. 43 mph no. But nobody could beat me in the turns. I never lifted my finger going around the course and pulled 30 feet in every turn,why SETUP.

I raced CF orlic hulls and beat them with heavier RR hulls . Why setup. Don't get me wrong if your running caveman technology Veco 19, K&b 21. Then new hulls and engines will matter. But in the last 10 years ever since the novarossi 10 port came out. What does Andys MAC 21 have over all the other engines that made it in a league of its own. He got the engine setup finally down . I today am running 56 mph on my 21 mono due to a prop I found picked up 6-7 mph and then modified it. I am running alot faster Not by reinventing the wheel but by making the wheel run more effiecient.

Dan:

You will find that VERY FEW people that have .21 boats running very very well. Most of it is boat setup. I spend hours on boat setup and that really pays off. I also spend a ton of time with props. By the way, I have not let it be known until now that Frank Bonanno has made a Prop Duplicator off of my current best prop (1450). In fact he has made 2 duplicators, one for each blade, since my prop has different configuration on both blades. I tried a prop with both blades bent of the A Duplicator and both blades bent on the B Duplicator. Neither prop was nearly as good as a prop bent using both duplicators. Frank told me that he has those duplicators available. I did this since I didn't want to not have a way to duplicate my best 20 prop ever. Now I am protected on that. AND, I decided to allow him to sell them.

As for running 43 mph with your mono and beating everyone in the turns - I can appreciate that since I also concentrate on turn speed.

Time spent refining your 20 hydro pays huge dividends.

As for your question about Andy's MAC 21. It is what I still run, for a couple reasons. It is a rear exhaust as the number 1 reason and I have a few that I can interchange with all running well. I would be equally happy with a Nova Rossi, except for the lack of a rear exhaust engine. I ran NR for many years with great success and reliability. If NR all of a sudden came out with a rear exhaust engine, I would probably switch unless Andy produced a new MAC.

Marty,

What do you find to be an advantage of the rear exhaust engines? I've run both and prefer the ease of being able to R&R the belt or shaft without removing the pipe. Also, with one twist of the belt it's out of the way and not being burned by the pipe of header. Not to mention the Nova's tend to pull more prop. Oh ya, and the new engine costs $215.00 and your choice is obsolete. Makes it a no brainer for me.

Ron

I missed Ron Zakers presentation of the setup board,can someone explain that or should i start another thread? I love this thread,thanks for starting it Mark,im working on a new SGX21 and will spend as much time testing till its right. On this same subject in the end we are not talking about raw speed its LAP TIMES in heat racing conditions..........

 

[Marty Davis]

About two years ago someone make a video of someone running a orlic carbon fiber 21 hydro at a canadian race. It ran 80mph CONSISTENT heat after heat and blew away all other riggers regardless of size. Correct me if Iam wrong ,if the fastest 21 riggers at the nats are running upper 60s to lower 70s mph CONSISTANTLY IN HEAT RACING FORM, with off the shelf technology (novarossi engine, abc prop,someones 21 pipe ,and standard hardware) why are there so many of you 21 gurus reinventing the wheel? Say the average 21 rigger at the nats is running a true 70 mph. And for argument sake after all your R&D in your pipes and props and hulls you picked up 10% gain in mph. That would be 7 mph gain for all your work. On a average you still you be 3 mph slower then this canadian guy running a CF 21 rigger at a true 80 mph. WHATS MY POINT YOU ASK? The technology already exits in most circumstances to really fast. Is it not that this canadian guy who said Frank Orlic did everything master the setup of the boat ? Even the CF hull ,which is a special custom hull, runs a lot different then the average 21 rigger. MORE POSITIVE. Maybe this 80 mph rigger mastered the setup then reinventing the wheel in new technology. Setup considerations- 1. less drag on hull. 2. weight distrubution 3. engine setup combination. 4. pipe length. 5. strut position. 6. boat running at peak rpm band. Here in district 3 10-12 years ago a father /son team would take off the shelf parts and setup a 21 rigger and test for hours and sometimes days till they mastered the setup. And nobody could beat them when they were on there game. The father and son team I am talking about was Stan Simpson and his father for Jacksonville Fla. They showed me that setup is evrything. Is it that they would just work at it until it was right were most modelers won't. Dan Mccormick District 3 namba

Dan:

I saw one of Franco's Carbon boats run many years ago when Ron VanWagnen spanked most everyone with it.

It was super fast and dominated the race that I saw it at.

It did not turn as well as some I have seen and the extra speed was given up in that way.

IF that boat was optimized in turning ability it would be hard to beat by the best.

It was awesome in speed.

MARTY: Your remark regarding Rons CF boat confirms my point. I am still running the same pipe I started with 29 years ago .OPS 3280 pipe And as become the 21 pipe to have in metal or carbon.

Tell me Marty what new hull design ,pipe design, prop design ,engine design that would truely outperform a 10 year old ,novarossi,octura prop,ops pipe 3280 in a crapshooter or intrepid or Ron V boat running at peak performance due to the optimim setup. There is one part of the total race program were I would agree could use some R&D. PROPELLERS. Why props ,because most of the props are 25 -35 years old and only run 80-85% efficient. The gains in technology over the last 25-30 years in engine and hull developement has yielded boat combinations that are running close to the point of deminshing returns. I went to the 1999 nats in Huntsville Alabama and ran a seaducer 21 for the first time. I barrowed the boat and lost the radio in the first test session were it ran upside down across the lake for a full tank of fuel. I won all heats excluding one were i got second. Was I the fastest. 43 mph no. But nobody could beat me in the turns. I never lifted my finger going around the course and pulled 30 feet in every turn,why SETUP.

I raced CF orlic hulls and beat them with heavier RR hulls . Why setup. Don't get me wrong if your running caveman technology Veco 19, K&b 21. Then new hulls and engines will matter. But in the last 10 years ever since the novarossi 10 port came out. What does Andys MAC 21 have over all the other engines that made it in a league of its own. He got the engine setup finally down . I today am running 56 mph on my 21 mono due to a prop I found picked up 6-7 mph and then modified it. I am running alot faster Not by reinventing the wheel but by making the wheel run more effiecient.

Dan:

You will find that VERY FEW people that have .21 boats running very very well. Most of it is boat setup. I spend hours on boat setup and that really pays off. I also spend a ton of time with props. By the way, I have not let it be known until now that Frank Bonanno has made a Prop Duplicator off of my current best prop (1450). In fact he has made 2 duplicators, one for each blade, since my prop has different configuration on both blades. I tried a prop with both blades bent of the A Duplicator and both blades bent on the B Duplicator. Neither prop was nearly as good as a prop bent using both duplicators. Frank told me that he has those duplicators available. I did this since I didn't want to not have a way to duplicate my best 20 prop ever. Now I am protected on that. AND, I decided to allow him to sell them.

As for running 43 mph with your mono and beating everyone in the turns - I can appreciate that since I also concentrate on turn speed.

Time spent refining your 20 hydro pays huge dividends.

As for your question about Andy's MAC 21. It is what I still run, for a couple reasons. It is a rear exhaust as the number 1 reason and I have a few that I can interchange with all running well. I would be equally happy with a Nova Rossi, except for the lack of a rear exhaust engine. I ran NR for many years with great success and reliability. If NR all of a sudden came out with a rear exhaust engine, I would probably switch unless Andy produced a new MAC.

Marty,

What do you find to be an advantage of the rear exhaust engines? I've run both and prefer the ease of being able to R&R the belt or shaft without removing the pipe. Also, with one twist of the belt it's out of the way and not being burned by the pipe of header. Not to mention the Nova's tend to pull more prop. Oh ya, and the new engine costs $215.00 and your choice is obsolete. Makes it a no brainer for me.

Ron

Ron:

Sure can't argue with $215

I just like the clean shape of the boat without the pipe hanging out the side.

I don't agree at all with you about the NR pulling more prop though.... Guess it is how the engine is set up. I ran NR for many years so I am in a good position to make the statement that the NR does not pull more prop. I am running a much different head configuration that I was running on the NR now on the MAC so it is really not a fair comparison. I would have to build a NR with my current design and then I could say for sure.

 

[Marty Davis]

About two years ago someone make a video of someone running a orlic carbon fiber 21 hydro at a canadian race. It ran 80mph CONSISTENT heat after heat and blew away all other riggers regardless of size. Correct me if Iam wrong ,if the fastest 21 riggers at the nats are running upper 60s to lower 70s mph CONSISTANTLY IN HEAT RACING FORM, with off the shelf technology (novarossi engine, abc prop,someones 21 pipe ,and standard hardware) why are there so many of you 21 gurus reinventing the wheel? Say the average 21 rigger at the nats is running a true 70 mph. And for argument sake after all your R&D in your pipes and props and hulls you picked up 10% gain in mph. That would be 7 mph gain for all your work. On a average you still you be 3 mph slower then this canadian guy running a CF 21 rigger at a true 80 mph. WHATS MY POINT YOU ASK? The technology already exits in most circumstances to really fast. Is it not that this canadian guy who said Frank Orlic did everything master the setup of the boat ? Even the CF hull ,which is a special custom hull, runs a lot different then the average 21 rigger. MORE POSITIVE. Maybe this 80 mph rigger mastered the setup then reinventing the wheel in new technology. Setup considerations- 1. less drag on hull. 2. weight distrubution 3. engine setup combination. 4. pipe length. 5. strut position. 6. boat running at peak rpm band. Here in district 3 10-12 years ago a father /son team would take off the shelf parts and setup a 21 rigger and test for hours and sometimes days till they mastered the setup. And nobody could beat them when they were on there game. The father and son team I am talking about was Stan Simpson and his father for Jacksonville Fla. They showed me that setup is evrything. Is it that they would just work at it until it was right were most modelers won't. Dan Mccormick District 3 namba

Dan:

I saw one of Franco's Carbon boats run many years ago when Ron VanWagnen spanked most everyone with it.

It was super fast and dominated the race that I saw it at.

It did not turn as well as some I have seen and the extra speed was given up in that way.

IF that boat was optimized in turning ability it would be hard to beat by the best.

It was awesome in speed.

MARTY: Your remark regarding Rons CF boat confirms my point. I am still running the same pipe I started with 29 years ago .OPS 3280 pipe And as become the 21 pipe to have in metal or carbon.

Tell me Marty what new hull design ,pipe design, prop design ,engine design that would truely outperform a 10 year old ,novarossi,octura prop,ops pipe 3280 in a crapshooter or intrepid or Ron V boat running at peak performance due to the optimim setup. There is one part of the total race program were I would agree could use some R&D. PROPELLERS. Why props ,because most of the props are 25 -35 years old and only run 80-85% efficient. The gains in technology over the last 25-30 years in engine and hull developement has yielded boat combinations that are running close to the point of deminshing returns. I went to the 1999 nats in Huntsville Alabama and ran a seaducer 21 for the first time. I barrowed the boat and lost the radio in the first test session were it ran upside down across the lake for a full tank of fuel. I won all heats excluding one were i got second. Was I the fastest. 43 mph no. But nobody could beat me in the turns. I never lifted my finger going around the course and pulled 30 feet in every turn,why SETUP.

I raced CF orlic hulls and beat them with heavier RR hulls . Why setup. Don't get me wrong if your running caveman technology Veco 19, K&b 21. Then new hulls and engines will matter. But in the last 10 years ever since the novarossi 10 port came out. What does Andys MAC 21 have over all the other engines that made it in a league of its own. He got the engine setup finally down . I today am running 56 mph on my 21 mono due to a prop I found picked up 6-7 mph and then modified it. I am running alot faster Not by reinventing the wheel but by making the wheel run more effiecient.

Dan:

You will find that VERY FEW people that have .21 boats running very very well. Most of it is boat setup. I spend hours on boat setup and that really pays off. I also spend a ton of time with props. By the way, I have not let it be known until now that Frank Bonanno has made a Prop Duplicator off of my current best prop (1450). In fact he has made 2 duplicators, one for each blade, since my prop has different configuration on both blades. I tried a prop with both blades bent of the A Duplicator and both blades bent on the B Duplicator. Neither prop was nearly as good as a prop bent using both duplicators. Frank told me that he has those duplicators available. I did this since I didn't want to not have a way to duplicate my best 20 prop ever. Now I am protected on that. AND, I decided to allow him to sell them.

As for running 43 mph with your mono and beating everyone in the turns - I can appreciate that since I also concentrate on turn speed.

Time spent refining your 20 hydro pays huge dividends.

As for your question about Andy's MAC 21. It is what I still run, for a couple reasons. It is a rear exhaust as the number 1 reason and I have a few that I can interchange with all running well. I would be equally happy with a Nova Rossi, except for the lack of a rear exhaust engine. I ran NR for many years with great success and reliability. If NR all of a sudden came out with a rear exhaust engine, I would probably switch unless Andy produced a new MAC.

Marty,

What do you find to be an advantage of the rear exhaust engines? I've run both and prefer the ease of being able to R&R the belt or shaft without removing the pipe. Also, with one twist of the belt it's out of the way and not being burned by the pipe of header. Not to mention the Nova's tend to pull more prop. Oh ya, and the new engine costs $215.00 and your choice is obsolete. Makes it a no brainer for me.

Ron

I missed Ron Zakers presentation of the setup board,can someone explain that or should i start another thread? I love this thread,thanks for starting it Mark,im working on a new SGX21 and will spend as much time testing till its right. On this same subject in the end we are not talking about raw speed its LAP TIMES in heat racing conditions..........

Mike:

EXACTLY CORRECT.....

 

[Ron Jefferson]

About two years ago someone make a video of someone running a orlic carbon fiber 21 hydro at a canadian race. It ran 80mph CONSISTENT heat after heat and blew away all other riggers regardless of size. Correct me if Iam wrong ,if the fastest 21 riggers at the nats are running upper 60s to lower 70s mph CONSISTANTLY IN HEAT RACING FORM, with off the shelf technology (novarossi engine, abc prop,someones 21 pipe ,and standard hardware) why are there so many of you 21 gurus reinventing the wheel? Say the average 21 rigger at the nats is running a true 70 mph. And for argument sake after all your R&D in your pipes and props and hulls you picked up 10% gain in mph. That would be 7 mph gain for all your work. On a average you still you be 3 mph slower then this canadian guy running a CF 21 rigger at a true 80 mph. WHATS MY POINT YOU ASK? The technology already exits in most circumstances to really fast. Is it not that this canadian guy who said Frank Orlic did everything master the setup of the boat ? Even the CF hull ,which is a special custom hull, runs a lot different then the average 21 rigger. MORE POSITIVE. Maybe this 80 mph rigger mastered the setup then reinventing the wheel in new technology. Setup considerations- 1. less drag on hull. 2. weight distrubution 3. engine setup combination. 4. pipe length. 5. strut position. 6. boat running at peak rpm band. Here in district 3 10-12 years ago a father /son team would take off the shelf parts and setup a 21 rigger and test for hours and sometimes days till they mastered the setup. And nobody could beat them when they were on there game. The father and son team I am talking about was Stan Simpson and his father for Jacksonville Fla. They showed me that setup is evrything. Is it that they would just work at it until it was right were most modelers won't. Dan Mccormick District 3 namba

Dan:

I saw one of Franco's Carbon boats run many years ago when Ron VanWagnen spanked most everyone with it.

It was super fast and dominated the race that I saw it at.

It did not turn as well as some I have seen and the extra speed was given up in that way.

IF that boat was optimized in turning ability it would be hard to beat by the best.

It was awesome in speed.

MARTY: Your remark regarding Rons CF boat confirms my point. I am still running the same pipe I started with 29 years ago .OPS 3280 pipe And as become the 21 pipe to have in metal or carbon.

Tell me Marty what new hull design ,pipe design, prop design ,engine design that would truely outperform a 10 year old ,novarossi,octura prop,ops pipe 3280 in a crapshooter or intrepid or Ron V boat running at peak performance due to the optimim setup. There is one part of the total race program were I would agree could use some R&D. PROPELLERS. Why props ,because most of the props are 25 -35 years old and only run 80-85% efficient. The gains in technology over the last 25-30 years in engine and hull developement has yielded boat combinations that are running close to the point of deminshing returns. I went to the 1999 nats in Huntsville Alabama and ran a seaducer 21 for the first time. I barrowed the boat and lost the radio in the first test session were it ran upside down across the lake for a full tank of fuel. I won all heats excluding one were i got second. Was I the fastest. 43 mph no. But nobody could beat me in the turns. I never lifted my finger going around the course and pulled 30 feet in every turn,why SETUP.

I raced CF orlic hulls and beat them with heavier RR hulls . Why setup. Don't get me wrong if your running caveman technology Veco 19, K&b 21. Then new hulls and engines will matter. But in the last 10 years ever since the novarossi 10 port came out. What does Andys MAC 21 have over all the other engines that made it in a league of its own. He got the engine setup finally down . I today am running 56 mph on my 21 mono due to a prop I found picked up 6-7 mph and then modified it. I am running alot faster Not by reinventing the wheel but by making the wheel run more effiecient.

Dan:

You will find that VERY FEW people that have .21 boats running very very well. Most of it is boat setup. I spend hours on boat setup and that really pays off. I also spend a ton of time with props. By the way, I have not let it be known until now that Frank Bonanno has made a Prop Duplicator off of my current best prop (1450). In fact he has made 2 duplicators, one for each blade, since my prop has different configuration on both blades. I tried a prop with both blades bent of the A Duplicator and both blades bent on the B Duplicator. Neither prop was nearly as good as a prop bent using both duplicators. Frank told me that he has those duplicators available. I did this since I didn't want to not have a way to duplicate my best 20 prop ever. Now I am protected on that. AND, I decided to allow him to sell them.

As for running 43 mph with your mono and beating everyone in the turns - I can appreciate that since I also concentrate on turn speed.

Time spent refining your 20 hydro pays huge dividends.

As for your question about Andy's MAC 21. It is what I still run, for a couple reasons. It is a rear exhaust as the number 1 reason and I have a few that I can interchange with all running well. I would be equally happy with a Nova Rossi, except for the lack of a rear exhaust engine. I ran NR for many years with great success and reliability. If NR all of a sudden came out with a rear exhaust engine, I would probably switch unless Andy produced a new MAC.

Marty,

What do you find to be an advantage of the rear exhaust engines? I've run both and prefer the ease of being able to R&R the belt or shaft without removing the pipe. Also, with one twist of the belt it's out of the way and not being burned by the pipe of header. Not to mention the Nova's tend to pull more prop. Oh ya, and the new engine costs $215.00 and your choice is obsolete. Makes it a no brainer for me.

Ron

Ron:

Sure can't argue with $215

I just like the clean shape of the boat without the pipe hanging out the side.

I don't agree at all with you about the NR pulling more prop though.... Guess it is how the engine is set up. I ran NR for many years so I am in a good position to make the statement that the NR does not pull more prop. I am running a much different head configuration that I was running on the NR now on the MAC so it is really not a fair comparison. I would have to build a NR with my current design and then I could say for sure.

Marty,

All I know, is around here the Mac .21/ NovaRossi is like comparing the CMB RS .45 to a Picco Blackhead. There's just no comparison. Maybe it's the air

Ron

 

[NOVALTD]

Have any off the 21 gurus run any of Andys new 21 props for hydro and mono. Any ABC props offering better performance over the run of the mill 1450,1650,1445,h7 h10. If all of the new props ABC has done in the last 3 years and ANDYS new milled props have not being able to raise the bar of performance overall then old school technology still rules and proves my point.

A 30+ year old prop (1450) on a duplicator

B. 30+year old pipe (ops 3280) sleeved

C. 11 year old 10 port NR modded correctly

D. 10 year old Speedmaster hardware

E. 10-12 year old interpid,Road Runner ,crapshooter etc.

All of the above can run 75 mph if setup properly. 10 -12 years ago Marty came to Ft.Myers Florida. Sitting on the side of the lake was FRED MCBROOM. He told me that Martys Intrepid was doing 75mph in heat racing form. Fastest thing there. Fast forward 11 years to today. What has all the new hull designs,propdesigns,pipedesigns and hardware improvements along with the fancy dyno testing done overall to raise the bar of performance overall. It told you what works and what doesnot. But true improvements to performance ?????????????. Most of the hulls in the past ten years have been designed well enough to the point were there close to the point of deminishing returns. The same can be said about engines and hardware. Yes there are always exceptions. Did the 2.5 lb RR panout. No

Even if all the work everyboby in doing to 21 rigger design gets them to 80 mph, Can you drive EFFECTIVELY at 80 mph. I hope you bring a change of underware. What happened to all the super pipes of years past that were the scrooge of the nation. Irwin ,Mac,Novarossi,Picco,Cooper,Cmb,how come none of these pipes are used today for top performance like the OPS 3280. Why because once you get the design down there is no need to reinvent the wheel if everything else stays the same. If new exotic metals ,designs and manufacturing improve greatly in the future then it time to go to R&D .

DAN