2007 IMPBA NOISE CHANGE

[moparbarn]

kelly, what you propose sounds both reasonable and logical. i really like trying to document db levels of the same boat at different sites. if there were some way to document the varialbes between locations, ie, cause and effect, it should be easier to try to eliminate them. or at least compensate for them. i like constructive approachs, much better than just saying 'it can't be done'.

 

[Brian Blazer]

After looking at reasons why my brainstorming idea wouldn't work, I agree. As long as the chamber is consistant, I have no problem with the current rule.

 

[Ray Sametz]

The rule is 92db, the beef is the way we check it, too many variables. If the blast radius on a bomb is 200 feet, do I stand at 201 feet to get the best view of it going off, of course not. Leaving the meter out of the equation. If I set my boat up to test at 91.5db, then race at Elmira 900 feet above sea level or Delmarv at sea level or Greenbrier in a bowl surrounded by thousands of trees pumping out O2 will the noise level be different because I had to adjust my needle to run correctly,I think so. You can't run at the limit, Brad. What we have is a start in the right direction. This hobby is the bastard child of them all. We will lose ponds simply because people don't want us there. Lets try to take the No.1 problem (Not noise,being too loud out of the picture). Lets have fun racing our boats. Ray

 

[Chris Wood]

here is what i don't get and maybe bill zuber can answer this for me..

We have rule of 92 db for a impba sanctioned race correct??

we have people complaining about losing ponds due to noise correct?

then why why why is it club discrestion to choose weither or not they meter it at the race? I realize it is impossible to monitor this across the usa. But when clubs post it in there flyer, why is this allowed. Then we go to places like the nats, ( where from what i have seen ) is the only place that it gets inforced??

Am I off base here?? As I am just trying to get this figured out.. Again if i am wrong please correct me as i am not up on all the rules and regulations.

chris

 

[Brian Blazer]

The rule is 92db, the beef is the way we check it, too many variables. If the blast radius on a bomb is 200 feet, do I stand at 201 feet to get the best view of it going off, of course not.

This may be the quote of the year :lol: :lol:

 

[Joe_Knesek]

If we went to a mechanical rule and set specific dimensions for each motor class we would have no need for a db meter. Use the db meter to figure out what the muffler's dimensions need to be to get to the desired db. Simple & enforcible.

 

[SayMikey]

If we went to a mechanical rule and set specific dimensions for each motor class we would have no need for a db meter. Use the db meter to figure out what the muffler's dimensions need to be to get to the desired db. Simple & enforcible.

I think a mechanical rule would work as long as an inspection was done. An offset stinger muffled pipe or an offset stinger muffler seem to work best. Problem is guys love to drill holes in things!!!!!! A meter is still going to have to be there unless someone can find a way to tamperproof pipes.............Mike I guess a rod could be welded across the inlet and outlet of pipe to keep a drill from getting in just thinking out loud...........

 

[Steve Sutton]

The rule is 92db, the beef is the way we check it, too many variables. If the blast radius on a bomb is 200 feet, do I stand at 201 feet to get the best view of it going off, of course not. Leaving the meter out of the equation. If I set my boat up to test at 91.5db, then race at Elmira 900 feet above sea level or Delmarv at sea level or Greenbrier in a bowl surrounded by thousands of trees pumping out O2 will the noise level be different because I had to adjust my needle to run correctly,I think so. You can't run at the limit, Brad. What we have is a start in the right direction. This hobby is the bastard child of them all. We will lose ponds simply because people don't want us there. Lets try to take the No.1 problem (Not noise,being too loud out of the picture). Lets have fun racing our boats. Ray

Ray,

Right on target guy. At least we are moving down the road to making another attempt to quiet down our boats to prevent losing our ponds. We as model boaters have to be good neighbors and fit into our respective neighborhood playgrounds, it we don't we will get run off the premises.

 

[Don Ferrette]

If we went to a mechanical rule and set specific dimensions for each motor class we would have no need for a db meter. Use the db meter to figure out what the muffler's dimensions need to be to get to the desired db. Simple & enforcible.

I think a mechanical rule would work as long as an inspection was done. An offset stinger muffled pipe or an offset stinger muffler seem to work best. Problem is guys love to drill holes in things!!!!!! A meter is still going to have to be there unless someone can find a way to tamperproof pipes.............Mike I guess a rod could be welded across the inlet and outlet of pipe to keep a drill from getting in just thinking out loud...........

There is no such thing as tamper proof. I personally know 2 different people who are so good at welding aluminum that they could open a quiet pipe or muffler, gut it, weld it up & you wouldn't be able to tell visually. :blink:

Like I said earlier that it is undeniable physics that you decrease sound when you change it's direction, THIS IS FACT!! Why do you think the mufflers with offest stingers work sooo much better than straight thu versions. :blink:

 

[Steve Sutton]

From what i have seen when using mufflers only offset stingers are working with repetitive results.

Correct. It is simple, undeniable physics the the most impact on sound is to make it change direction. This past weekend I got to see a muffler that Steve Speas made himself & tested on his gas boat. The outlet was 90 degrees to the inlet & pointed down at the water towards the prop blast. The muffler was quite effective, amazingly simple in design & he still walked the dog on the other boats. B)

Hey Don,

Who is this guy Steve Speas and where can I get on of his stinger mufflers!!!! I heard his boat was fast and so quiet you could hear the water slapping off the hull when he was running in open water at the last Delmarva D12 race. I want one!!!!

 

[Wesleys Custom Graphics]

I took note of what some of our 85 db friends are doing over seas and started isolating my stuffing tube. Epoxy a 3/4 tube in the hull and insert your stuffing tube inside that with rtv. Does this slow the boat down, NO! Does it cost alot, again, NO! Everyone in Celina commented that My scale sounded like a real turbine it was so quiet. Next week I'm going to glue some sound proof material inside the cowl and make this girl whisper as she flys past everybody.

 

[Josh Stollfuss]

Wes's Scale was quite. I will attest to that! Aren't there other ways to quite a boat down besides the pipe and muffler? That is the obvious. But every little thing that makes noise adds up. Can't the carb at wide open throttle be noisey also? The stuffing tube resonates allot of noise. Bound up rubber mounts will also transfer noise to the hull. Foam pads in the hull to absorb noise rather refelct or resonate noise will help also? I'm going to make an effort to quite all my boats down, even if I loose a little performace. We all know it's not always that fastest boat that wins in heat racing anyway.

Josh-

 

[Brad Christy]

Guys,

First off, I'll appologize if I've upset anyone. This was not my intentions.

We have limits for nearly every aspect of our sport. Engine displacement, or number of cells for you REALLY quiet guys. Hull length. Width of strut. The list goes on for pages. None of these dimensions are going to change from one race site to the next. Now we have a limit on sound level coming from our exhaust. This DOES seem to change from site to site. What can we do about this? Nothing. Can we enforce this limit. Yes. The problem is that it's not a tangible measurement. If you;re going to set a limit, you can expect people to stand with their toes over the edge. The only thing you can do, and keep it fair, is to make it less abstract by removing variables.

As for staying away from the limit "just to be safe"......... My 21 Hydro normally runs somewhere in the 88-89 dB range, well within the limit. Yet, it was brought to my attention that t was hovering around 91-92 with one 94 dB pass at the Celina, OH race. Why? Who knows. Did I deserve penalty? Not in my opinion because, as I see it, by boat is more than compliant. I think most people who got DQ'd at last year's Internats were in the same situation. But who cares, right. They were over, right? This was the position of the board.

I'm not sure I like the idea of picking out the loudest boat and shaving points (or whatever) for two reasons. first, as Don pointed out, it could be used to undermine the top contender's dominance. Second, when we get to a certain point or diminishing returns, what next. We CAN'T stop enforcing the rule or we'll be right back here again in a couple years (or less). Plus, as was pointed out, if everyone is WWWAAAYYY too loud, then nobody is "over". Trust me, it WILL happen.

It has been my experience that most people are finding MORE speed from the quiet pipes, anyway, so the trend will be toward quieter boats, anyway. I also think most race sites are not going to have an issue with neighbors, but I've been to several that I could definitely see the possibility of trouble. For this reason, I am ALL FOR noise control. I just don't think we're ready to start ruining peoples weekends because something out of their control pushed them over the limit. We need to isolate these influences and eliminate them if possible. Then we can start to think about penalties.

Mr. Zuber,

Could you kindly produce Mr. Knesek's rule change proposal for all to read? If not, please tell us why not. If you "can't find it" <_< for what ever reason, could you please inform Mr. Knesek that he needs to re-submit it. I'm sure he kept a copy for himself and would be more than happy to help us out.

Thanks. Brad.

Titan Racing Components

BlackJack Hydros

 

[rcpilotbill]

After reading this thread as it has progressed or more pointedly has not progressed, I am struck by the absurdity of the two sides simply saying the same thing over and over pointing fingers at each other and not moving towards a compromise that will appease all involved.

While some will argue that a governing body that simply imposes rules regardless of it's memberships wishes will kill the hobby/sport.... At the same time, a governing body that does nothing to protect the interest of the majority is usually tagged as a useless and ridiculed by it's members. The reality of the situation is that as suburbia continues to grow closer and closer and the political correctness regime continues to gain momentum..... we will lose our "play zones" if we do not take steps to ensure that we are good AND quiet neighbors. To see this in action, take a look at the number of drag strips, local oval track venues, dirt track venues etcthat are gone and you can see that even the long term establishments have been pushed out of operation by the suburban sprawl and the desire to build next to the tracks and then complain about the noise.... it is happening whether we like it or not and the fact that our governing body has at the very least taken a stab at ensuring the future hobbyist have a place to play should be applauded.

Truth be told, new boaters coming in to the hobby wont be turned away from the hobby because of the rule, they will be turned away if there is not a fair and equal method of enforcing the rule. After that, they will comply with the rules simply because they don't know any difference. (I fall in to that category, by the way)

Since we all agree that the 92db rule is not the problem, and we all also agree that continuity of measurement and enforcement is the main problem with the rule seeing as how 92 db at my sea level on a windy humid day is different than your 92db above sea level on a dry day at a concrete lined pond, which is different than 92 db at a pond completely surrounded by trees or in a valley or on a mountain or...... you get my point.

The idea of measuring and reporting is a good idea, the problem with measuring and reporting is that there is no way to verify that what I ran today, measured today and reported today is the same combination of header, pipe, muffler, engine that I ran on my boat yesterday which opens the opportunity for argument and I could legitimately claim that I was under today and you measure me over tomorrow..... With me leaving out the fact that I have made changes to the setup that you are not aware of.

The solution to the problem seems unbelievably simple in my opinion.... If the boating community is going to accept the fact that there are variables of up to 7db in measurement (only using a number used in a previous post to make a point and not state an accurate variance) the governing body must also realize and accept this possibility of variance and build it in to the rule.....

The solution..... build the rule to say XX db +/- Xdb (building in about 1/2 of the "known" db variance to partially compensate for the known db variances measured at different locations.) If you are over the tolerance, you are penalized. As a boater, you also know that there is a variance in measuring the db levels and you must also be proactive about ensuring that you will be within the rule and within the tolerance level (not sit back and complain that there is a difference in measurement), and this makes up the other half of the compromise.. Should you decide that you wish to push the noise rule to the limit when measured at your local pond, be prepared for the consequence of doing so.

Measuring the db should be as simple as using the meter (and since we instituted a tolerance to allow for variances in equipment and locations no one should have a complaint as all drivers are subjected to the same rule and same variance) at xx feet away from the racing area (one could say xx feet from and perpendicular to the front entrance bouy) and the measurement is taken when the boat is run down the front stretch.... theoretically you should see the db increase as the boat gets closer, peak just as or after it passes and then get lower as it goes away...... if you are over, you are over. The measurement is not taken in some box, next to a wall or at increased or decreased distances from the boats.... xx feet from the entrance bouy means just that.....

By doing as proposed, both sides have compromised. The governing body by recognizing that there is and always will be a measurement variance and building some tolerance in to the rules and the boater by also understanding that they may get penalized if they do not also take some variance in to account and prepare for it.

Just my thoughts

Bill

 

[SayMikey]

After reading this thread as it has progressed or more pointedly has not progressed, I am struck by the absurdity of the two sides simply saying the same thing over and over pointing fingers at each other and not moving towards a compromise that will appease all involved.
While some will argue that a governing body that simply imposes rules regardless of it's memberships wishes will kill the hobby/sport.... At the same time, a governing body that does nothing to protect the interest of the majority is usually tagged as a useless and ridiculed by it's members. The reality of the situation is that as suburbia continues to grow closer and closer and the political correctness regime continues to gain momentum..... we will lose our "play zones" if we do not take steps to ensure that we are good AND quiet neighbors. To see this in action, take a look at the number of drag strips, local oval track venues, dirt track venues etcthat are gone and you can see that even the long term establishments have been pushed out of operation by the suburban sprawl and the desire to build next to the tracks and then complain about the noise.... it is happening whether we like it or not and the fact that our governing body has at the very least taken a stab at ensuring the future hobbyist have a place to play should be applauded.

Truth be told, new boaters coming in to the hobby wont be turned away from the hobby because of the rule, they will be turned away if there is not a fair and equal method of enforcing the rule. After that, they will comply with the rules simply because they don't know any difference. (I fall in to that category, by the way)

Since we all agree that the 92db rule is not the problem, and we all also agree that continuity of measurement and enforcement is the main problem with the rule seeing as how 92 db at my sea level on a windy humid day is different than your 92db above sea level on a dry day at a concrete lined pond, which is different than 92 db at a pond completely surrounded by trees or in a valley or on a mountain or...... you get my point.

The idea of measuring and reporting is a good idea, the problem with measuring and reporting is that there is no way to verify that what I ran today, measured today and reported today is the same combination of header, pipe, muffler, engine that I ran on my boat yesterday which opens the opportunity for argument and I could legitimately claim that I was under today and you measure me over tomorrow..... With me leaving out the fact that I have made changes to the setup that you are not aware of.

The solution to the problem seems unbelievably simple in my opinion.... If the boating community is going to accept the fact that there are variables of up to 7db in measurement (only using a number used in a previous post to make a point and not state an accurate variance) the governing body must also realize and accept this possibility of variance and build it in to the rule.....

The solution..... build the rule to say XX db +/- Xdb (building in about 1/2 of the "known" db variance to partially compensate for the known db variances measured at different locations.) If you are over the tolerance, you are penalized. As a boater, you also know that there is a variance in measuring the db levels and you must also be proactive about ensuring that you will be within the rule and within the tolerance level (not sit back and complain that there is a difference in measurement), and this makes up the other half of the compromise.. Should you decide that you wish to push the noise rule to the limit when measured at your local pond, be prepared for the consequence of doing so.

Measuring the db should be as simple as using the meter (and since we instituted a tolerance to allow for variances in equipment and locations no one should have a complaint as all drivers are subjected to the same rule and same variance) at xx feet away from the racing area (one could say xx feet from and perpendicular to the front entrance bouy) and the measurement is taken when the boat is run down the front stretch.... theoretically you should see the db increase as the boat gets closer, peak just as or after it passes and then get lower as it goes away...... if you are over, you are over. The measurement is not taken in some box, next to a wall or at increased or decreased distances from the boats.... xx feet from the entrance bouy means just that.....

By doing as proposed, both sides have compromised. The governing body by recognizing that there is and always will be a measurement variance and building some tolerance in to the rules and the boater by also understanding that they may get penalized if they do not also take some variance in to account and prepare for it.

Just my thoughts

Bill

I might another noise additive,a club member was running a cmb 80 with timing at 187 with a cooper QHP it was too loud. He ate a lot of glow plugs and broke a few sleeves. He dropped the time near 180 and the noise level droped considerable,also the glow plug and performance concerns went away. At this point all you can do is what Chris Wood is doing,making sure he is legal when he leaves the house.....Mike

 

[Brad Christy]

Guys,

Can sombody PLEASE explain to me why measuring noise AT the source is such an imposible concept to grasp? Everyone keeps finding some different way of explaining how to measure the sound as the boat goes by on the water. It just seems as obvious as whitecaps on a windy day that this is the sole of the sore foot. Now some are suggesting that we build a "tolerance" for the errors that are unavoidable when measuring the sound of a boat on the water. If you're going to set the limit at 92 dB +/- 7 dB, why not just set the limit at 99 dB and try and measure the sound a bit more accurately. Yes, the AMA has tightened up their restrictions on engine noise, but they also measure this noise at a minimum of distance (not sure what it is, but I VERY sure it's less than 50 feet). And, yes, ANSI has standards for measurin sound levels outdoors. I'm not sure what their actual protocol is (I don't have the Google savvy track it down, nor the patience to overcome that lack, nor the time to if I had the patience), but I have seen them measuring sound levels in manufacturing environments (indoor), and it is done at the source. I'd say no more than ten feet.

Why are we so stuck on the idea that the boat has to be underway to measure the noise level, where any and every outside influence is openly permitted into the reading?

Thanks. Brad.

Titan Racing Components

BlackJack Hydros

 

[Joe_Knesek]

If we went to a mechanical rule and set specific dimensions for each motor class we would have no need for a db meter. Use the db meter to figure out what the muffler's dimensions need to be to get to the desired db. Simple & enforcible.

I think a mechanical rule would work as long as an inspection was done. An offset stinger muffled pipe or an offset stinger muffler seem to work best. Problem is guys love to drill holes in things!!!!!! A meter is still going to have to be there unless someone can find a way to tamperproof pipes.............Mike I guess a rod could be welded across the inlet and outlet of pipe to keep a drill from getting in just thinking out loud...........

There is no such thing as tamper proof. I personally know 2 different people who are so good at welding aluminum that they could open a quiet pipe or muffler, gut it, weld it up & you wouldn't be able to tell visually. :blink:

Like I said earlier that it is undeniable physics that you decrease sound when you change it's direction, THIS IS FACT!! Why do you think the mufflers with offest stingers work sooo much better than straight thu versions. :blink:

If the demensions require an off-set and a specified length & ID of tubing you can measure it.

 

[Joe_Knesek]

Guys,
First off, I'll appologize if I've upset anyone. This was not my intentions.

We have limits for nearly every aspect of our sport. Engine displacement, or number of cells for you REALLY quiet guys. Hull length. Width of strut. The list goes on for pages. None of these dimensions are going to change from one race site to the next. Now we have a limit on sound level coming from our exhaust. This DOES seem to change from site to site. What can we do about this? Nothing. Can we enforce this limit. Yes. The problem is that it's not a tangible measurement. If you;re going to set a limit, you can expect people to stand with their toes over the edge. The only thing you can do, and keep it fair, is to make it less abstract by removing variables.

As for staying away from the limit "just to be safe"......... My 21 Hydro normally runs somewhere in the 88-89 dB range, well within the limit. Yet, it was brought to my attention that t was hovering around 91-92 with one 94 dB pass at the Celina, OH race. Why? Who knows. Did I deserve penalty? Not in my opinion because, as I see it, by boat is more than compliant. I think most people who got DQ'd at last year's Internats were in the same situation. But who cares, right. They were over, right? This was the position of the board.

I'm not sure I like the idea of picking out the loudest boat and shaving points (or whatever) for two reasons. first, as Don pointed out, it could be used to undermine the top contender's dominance. Second, when we get to a certain point or diminishing returns, what next. We CAN'T stop enforcing the rule or we'll be right back here again in a couple years (or less). Plus, as was pointed out, if everyone is WWWAAAYYY too loud, then nobody is "over". Trust me, it WILL happen.

It has been my experience that most people are finding MORE speed from the quiet pipes, anyway, so the trend will be toward quieter boats, anyway. I also think most race sites are not going to have an issue with neighbors, but I've been to several that I could definitely see the possibility of trouble. For this reason, I am ALL FOR noise control. I just don't think we're ready to start ruining peoples weekends because something out of their control pushed them over the limit. We need to isolate these influences and eliminate them if possible. Then we can start to think about penalties.

Mr. Zuber,

Could you kindly produce Mr. Knesek's rule change proposal for all to read? If not, please tell us why not. If you "can't find it" <_< for what ever reason, could you please inform Mr. Knesek that he needs to re-submit it. I'm sure he kept a copy for himself and would be more than happy to help us out.

Thanks. Brad.

Titan Racing Components

BlackJack Hydros

This is what I sent to Bill. By the way Bill did request a copy from me earlier today.

1. Race officials will randomly test 1 boat per heat for excessive noise at a distance of 3 feet behind & 1 foot to the right of the boat level with the exhaust outlet.

2. The current db requirements will be converted to account for the reduction of distance.

3. Testing will be isolated within the pit area between heats while boats are being retrieved.

4. If the boat fails the initial inspection, the racer will receive a 100 point deduction for the heat.

5. Anyone who received the initial warning must prove the boat meets the db requirements in order to race any more heats.

6. The CD reserves the right to test boats at their discretion.

7. Measuring devices will be celebrated annually.

8. Measuring devices will be mounted on a tripod without obstructions.

 

[Don Ferrette]

Can sombody PLEASE explain to me why measuring noise AT the source is such an imposible concept to grasp?

If you go back to the earlier threads when this came up I supported the idea of static testing & still do. For some odd reason many others have difficulty grasping this concept. Like I said before, the current revision is certainly not the final answer but better than where we were, I did the best I could with the hand currently dealt ........ :mellow:

 

[Joe_Knesek]

We have at least 3 potential solutions on the table. Now we should spend our effort figuring out how to make them work instead of poking holes in them. One of my favorite quotes: "Success only comes in cans while failure is found in cannots."