2007 IMPBA NOISE CHANGE

[moparbarn]

i want to start by saying i not a member of any rc boat club or nat'l. body. just play with my .21 tunnels in a remote farm pond. but, i lived through this same thing in full scale boat racing in miami in the late 60's and early 70's. back then, mercury marine ran what they called 'stackers'. an inline six 2 stroke, 99 cid, with a y pipe for 3 pairs of cylinders, going into 3 bell megaphones abnout 30" long. quite a song at about 7 or 8 grand. you could literally hear just one running for a few miles. even in the city of miami. i know, i lived about 2 1/2 miles from pelican harbor (a race site), when i heard stackers, i could go watch the races. back then, politically correct wasn't in fashion. you went to have the same race you had for years, and the city said no-too noisy. no warning, no options, no race. regardless of what this does to impba, IT WILL AFFECT YOUR RACE SITES! you may not need impba, namba or local clubs to race, but you do need WATER. if you can't understand that, then good luck. i agree that ACCURATE measurement is near impossible, and that a legal boat at one race may not be at another site, due to environmental and site differances. but it will be the same for everybody, good or bad. accepting and working with the noise regs is to your benefit, or history will repeat itself, in a different scale. BTW, have you tried pointing your ex. outlet down? that spraying water is a good sound diffuser/muffler. not in the water, just pointing at it. water injection/wet stacks can help, but stalling can fill a motor with water, and it WILL affect the pipes range. probably have more torque and bottom end and lose top end-basically reducing the pipes volume. this was used on stackers that had been ported or over propped to help bottom end. used a solenoid to turn it off at higher rpm's. i do hope that this gets resolved, i had planned to start racing next season. boycotting events is not the way to resolve this issue. that will only cause more division in the organization, and possibly cause it to cease to be an effective governing body. then you won't have sanctioned events. fun for a little while, but not long lived. to have nationally sanctioned races, you need a santioning body. weakening what is in place only defeats your purpose. or do you want to split off and form your own ? look at indy cars, not the best solution. it's a simple challenge, make your boat fast and quiet. step up to the plate and accept the challenge presented. if you can't or won't, a lot of high dollar race boats won't be worth much before long. i've seen it happen before, don't be dumb enough to think it can't happen again to us. just my.02. if you want to know more about stackers, go to screamand fly.com, and do a forum search for "stackers". or go to the racing history forum and check out what it used to be like. pretty cool stuff, if you like FAST boats-mostly ob's.

 

[Brian Blazer]

I am so tired of hearing people complain about the noise issue. Please don't complain about the noise issue without giving some sort of feedback on how to fix the problem.

The anechoic chamber sounds like a good way to level the playing field the best we can. I do not agree with having two options to measure db levels. My opinion would be to either use the anechoic chamber, or do not inforce a db level. An open air db meter will just cause more grief if someone tests their boat using an anechoic chamber.

At the Gas Nats, we will be using the anechoic chamber to measure DB levels. I can almost guarantee I will not hear any complaints out the method of enforcement. Are there more politics with nitro? Is it because of the nitro legacy?

Here is a drawing I did of IMPBA's anechoic chamber:

Anechoic Chamber from front

Anechoic Chamber from rear

 

[Don Ferrette]

You know it's the same people every time .........

Is the revision perfect? Nobody is saying it is. Now is it better than what we had before the revision?? Yup, sure is-

1- Nobody is getting DQ'd now. Yes you get 9th place scoring BUT YOU KEEP RACING. This part alone is a huge improvement over sitting someone on their ass because they were over the limit.

2- You must be over by at least a full dB to get penalized. Do you realize how much that actually is in the 90+ dB range? More than you think as the dB scale is NOT linear.

3- Your target area is now defined and if you cannot measure in that 100 foot total window and are short on distance you subtract one dB from your reading. Again that is a big deal in the 90dB range & this came from info from sound engineers at Flowmaster who are experts at racetrack sound management, which happens to generally be held in outdoor venues.

BTW- as far as not being able to measure outdoors that's just not the case, ANSI has a standard for outdoor dB measuring, go tell them it can't be done. <_<

The AMA (motorcycles) has just recently tightened up there sound limits big time as well, 90% of their events are done outdoors.

We tried just a muffler rule and thanks to those who chose to use something that they called a muffler but were a joke at best it failed, so blame some of your fellow racers for that not working. I still see add on "mufflers" being used that don't do sxxt for noise reduction. :blink:

Like it or not sound control is in your future, there is no way around it. We just lost another race site in Texas because of noise & there are rumors circulating that they were running unmuffled at that pond. :blink:

Funny how NAVIGA has an 80dB limit in place, they just bring out the meter & if you're over that's tough, you better go fix it. I've raced with NAVIGA hydro racers & they are just as fast as we are, you just don't hear them coming.............

Nobody said this was going to be easy.

 

[Brian Blazer]

Excellent post Don.

 

[bzubee]

I nominate Doc Turner for IMPBA President for 2009! We need a petition with 5 IMPBA signatures and Doc's acceptance for the postion. Let's do it!

I have been running boats for over 25 years and am a life member of Impba and have served on the board in the past. The present noise rule has done more harm to IMPBA than any other issue in it's history.One can debate the science, physics and auditory physiology until we are blue in the face and many will not accept science on this issue. Setting all of this aside, the best races, the most fun races and the best competion has been at ponds where muffled tuned pipes and or mufflers were required and the db meter was left at home.

The bottom line is that people at the races want to race and not deal with a horrible rule. If the present President and board do not show some leadership and recognize that the rule that they are forcing down everybodies throat is destroying IMBPA, IMPBA is done as an organization.

Yes Brad, I believe this years turn out for the Nats is probabaly one of the worst and it is not due to gas prices or distance nor due to the lack of effort of the host club. They should be commended for their work and the President and some of the board members need to be voted out of office, if the organization can last until elections take place. It is hard enough for clubs to put on a race and get everything done and have enough people to do the work. The present modification adds even more burden and controversy at races and people are staying home doing something else with their free time.

Again we need leadership!!!!!!!!! I mentioned this before and TOM got mad at me. I don't regret the fact of saying that we need leadership and we still need LEADERSHIP to recognize that the present policy is destroying IMPBA. Gary

 

[bzubee]

Chris

I have said it before just like brad.. I am not apposed to the rule.. I am aposed to the fact there is no good way to go about it.. Let alone Prove to me that you have a IMBIASED person on the meter. and get constant ways of operation from site to site..

"IMBIASED person " task can be hard to find at any race that has a referee calling any infractions of any rules at any sport.

AS for Doc's statment of destroying IMPBA that is just another incorrect assumption based his wishes not facts we have already had more members join for 2007 than we had for all of last year and the number is still growing. If that is destroying the organization I'm for it tfor the last 3 years we have shown growth in the organization and not just a little but enough to make a financial difference.

I 'm done with this post you all have my contact information and if you want to talk or e-mail I do respon to constructive critisim.

 

[SayMikey]

Chris
I have said it before just like brad.. I am not apposed to the rule.. I am aposed to the fact there is no good way to go about it.. Let alone Prove to me that you have a IMBIASED person on the meter. and get constant ways of operation from site to site..

"IMBIASED person " task can be hard to find at any race that has a referee calling any infractions of any rules at any sport.

AS for Doc's statment of destroying IMPBA that is just another incorrect assumption based his wishes not facts we have already had more members join for 2007 than we had for all of last year and the number is still growing. If that is destroying the organization I'm for it tfor the last 3 years we have shown growth in the organization and not just a little but enough to make a financial difference.

I 'm done with this post you all have my contact information and if you want to talk or e-mail I do respon to constructive critisim.

We had 5 members sign up at our race! From what i have seen when using mufflers only offset stingers are working with repetitive results.

 

[Wesleys Custom Graphics]

I would like to say thanks to the board for working to make improvements to the noise issue. I now it is a dificult issue to deal with but since you get paid......no wait......it's a volunteer thing isn't it :unsure: :huh: I also believe inforcement is important. I have been in too many racing organizations where the rules were not inforced. THAT is when people left. You can inforce the rule at a race and one guy may quit, stay home or get DQd but the other 99 will continue racing,legally OR you can ignore the rules and the one guy will stay while the 99 (silent majority) will leave. This is not my opinion, It is what I've seen hapen before.

 

[Don Ferrette]

From what i have seen when using mufflers only offset stingers are working with repetitive results.

Correct. It is simple, undeniable physics the the most impact on sound is to make it change direction. This past weekend I got to see a muffler that Steve Speas made himself & tested on his gas boat. The outlet was 90 degrees to the inlet & pointed down at the water towards the prop blast. The muffler was quite effective, amazingly simple in design & he still walked the dog on the other boats. B)

 

[Chris Wood]

I understand the rule's.. I also know i have made a HUGE HUGE effort to comply and be below the limit.

I also know i talked to several people on the board about this. Put my 2 cents in on suggestions and got know where.. what else is a guy suppose to do?

I do want to know, is this another trial base rule?? and when does this take effect?? does it start now??

chris

 

[SayMikey]

I understand the rule's.. I also know i have made a HUGE HUGE effort to comply and be below the limit.
I also know i talked to several people on the board about this. Put my 2 cents in on suggestions and got know where.. what else is a guy suppose to do?

I do want to know, is this another trial base rule?? and when does this take effect?? does it start now??

chris

The rule took effect last week,What it does is allow someone to continue to run and make corrections. Of course at the nats without top three points your going to not get anywhere. More at a local level it could help someone struggling with quieting a boat down,i feel we have came a long long way and still have a long way to go. Mike

 

[moparbarn]

From what i have seen when using mufflers only offset stingers are working with repetitive results.

Correct. It is simple, undeniable physics the the most impact on sound is to make it change direction. This past weekend I got to see a muffler that Steve Speas made himself & tested on his gas boat. The outlet was 90 degrees to the inlet & pointed down at the water towards the prop blast. The muffler was quite effective, amazingly simple in design & he still walked the dog on the other boats. B)

told you so B) , a a idea originally used on pleasure yachts to help quiet them. i've seen it on boats close to 100 years old. nothing new to pointing ex. at the water, just effective.. look at full size boats for help in ALL aspects of our sport, very direct causes and effects between the 2.

 

[Jim Caldwell]

Why reinvent the wheel? How does NAVIGA do it?

Most County and City goverments have noise laws on the books that are generally 60 DBA at the property line.

The mufflers exist to meet this limit for nito aircraft, BUT all it takes is ONE A**Hole now 225 club members don't have a place to fly with in 60 miles of home.

Unless the attitude changes you simply won't have a place to run your boat much less race EVEN IF YOU OWN THE POND.

Well, I guess you could run Electric

 

[Ray Sametz]

Jim, 60 miles from home, closest race for me 180 miles in a different District. ENUF,,,,,,talk-quiet it down. Ray

 

[Chris Wood]

I am just curious.. was this something that the members was supposed to be able to vote on?? i didn't see anything about it that is why I ask.

also, I was under the impression that when a rule written it takes effect the following year if it was wrote after the first of the year.. is that wrong?

thanks

chris

p.s oh and ray.

2 1/2 hrs to go test boats closest race is 4 1/2 hrs away.. i hear ya.

chris

 

[Don Ferrette]

I am just curious.. was this something that the members was supposed to be able to vote on?? i didn't see anything about it that is why I ask.

Chris this is not a new rule but rather a technical amendment. While it does not occur often the board has made technical amendments to existing rules before like back when they made wings illegal on monos & it generally becomes effective immediately upon board approval.

 

[gooycheese]

I really don't know much about the noise rule, and I am trying to do what ever it takes to make my boats meet the noise level requirements (aka muffler). But I for one have never seen a db meter at a race maybe it was there and I just missed it, I really would like to know what the noise level is on my boat. I have see a db meter one time and that was during some testing by Gary and David Preusse, it was there meter and there boat according to Gary was far under the limit. So I am all for the noise rules, I am glad they are basically getting enforced as I am coming into racing so I know nothing different. If at any race if you see me there please let me know there is a db meter there so I can find out what noise level my boats are at.

Thanks,

Paul

All I can think of is NASCAR, didn't they make tons of changes to there restrictions and if you don't comply you don't race? Those cars still seam pretty fast too.

 

[Stein Tumert]

You know it's the same people every time .........
Is the revision perfect? Nobody is saying it is. Now is it better than what we had before the revision?? Yup, sure is-

1- Nobody is getting DQ'd now. Yes you get 9th place scoring BUT YOU KEEP RACING. This part alone is a huge improvement over sitting someone on their ass because they were over the limit.

2- You must be over by at least a full dB to get penalized. Do you realize how much that actually is in the 90+ dB range? More than you think as the dB scale is NOT linear.

3- Your target area is now defined and if you cannot measure in that 100 foot total window and are short on distance you subtract one dB from your reading. Again that is a big deal in the 90dB range & this came from info from sound engineers at Flowmaster who are experts at racetrack sound management, which happens to generally be held in outdoor venues.

BTW- as far as not being able to measure outdoors that's just not the case, ANSI has a standard for outdoor dB measuring, go tell them it can't be done. <_<

The AMA (motorcycles) has just recently tightened up there sound limits big time as well, 90% of their events are done outdoors.

We tried just a muffler rule and thanks to those who chose to use something that they called a muffler but were a joke at best it failed, so blame some of your fellow racers for that not working. I still see add on "mufflers" being used that don't do sxxt for noise reduction. :blink:

Like it or not sound control is in your future, there is no way around it. We just lost another race site in Texas because of noise & there are rumors circulating that they were running unmuffled at that pond. :blink:

Funny how NAVIGA has an 80dB limit in place, they just bring out the meter & if you're over that's tough, you better go fix it. I've raced with NAVIGA hydro racers & they are just as fast as we are, you just don't hear them coming.............

Nobody said this was going to be easy.

I am not sure if I should laugh or cry when reading this thread on noise levels. You guys in the US need to wake up soon....do you want boat racing (lakes) or politics....

Read the post from Don again, then again, then another time, and another time and so on, see if you can pick up what he is saying. You guys may have to change how you approach this very important topic soon if you want to keep this great sport/hobby alive at your side of the big pond... even with a 80 dB rule over here in Europe it is hard enough to keep places to race...

BTW, Why don't you go for the 80 dB level right away also in the US?

 

[Brad Christy]

Chuck,

So tell me, do you drive 61 in a 65 MPH zone, just in case the officer's radar gun is off by an MPH or two? Or maybe the direction of the wind might throw off his reading... Or maybe he wasn't holding his mouth just right...... Or maybe......... Who knows?

Guys,

MAN, I hate it whend someone makes a liar out of me. I said I was done with this issue, and now here I am.........

How many times does a guy have to say that he is NOT opposed to a noise rule, or even the SPL limit before people quit accusing him of not wanting to quiet his boats down? Both of my boats are legal, and were before the noise rule was implemented. The problem is with the method of measurement.

Mr. Zuber sent me a PM asking me to propose something instead of complaining. I'm going to re-type something I typed once before and was asked to delete (which I did). Here goes:

Read the meter at five feet from the boat, not fifty, while it's on the stand, not on the course. This will eliminate nearly ALL variables involved. Yes, I know the boats sound different on the water than they do on the stand, and yes, I know you will get a higher reading at five feet than at fifty. We will have to set a new SPL limit to go by, but ONLY after sufficient research has be conducted to logically determine said limit.

Extensive observation has already been done by a number of people, that clearly show an inability to measure the sound of our engines as is prescribed by the rulebook. As I stated above, I was there. I've seen it. As much as a SEVEN dB change from one day to the next on the same boat. Same set-up, engine, pipe, prop, fuel. And what do you know?..... Same meter.... Calibrated within the month prior to the event. This data was presented to the board the last time they put their heads together, and it was promptly ignored. It obviously didn't fit the bill for what the board had already decided was going to happen. And by BTW, the data mentioned above was collected and submitted by a respected boater, who has supported the noise rule from day one and has all legal boats.

And come on, now. NINTH place points? 53 points? That's a DNF! At an event like the Internats, you're done. Don't act like it's not a DQ.

Thanks. Brad.

Titan Racing Components

BlackJack Hydros

 

[Joe_Knesek]

Brad I actually submitted a proposal to the board to measure db from a fixed distance. I'm not sure what was wrong with it but it followed the AMA procedure. If it's good enough for Supercross & outdoor nationals one would think it would work for us.