2007 IMPBA NOISE CHANGE

[piper_chuck]

Chuck,
So tell me, do you drive 61 in a 65 MPH zone, just in case the officer's radar gun is off by an MPH or two? Or maybe the direction of the wind might throw off his reading... Or maybe he wasn't holding his mouth just right...... Or maybe......... Who knows?

No, I drive at a speed that gives me a very high probability of NOT being pulled over. In most areas, that's typically no more than 5 MPH over the limit. Sometimes one can get away with more, and there are a few anal cities around here that occasionally write tickets for 1 MPH over, but 5 MPH is usually not a problem. So, if we apply your analogy to the new amendment, you will find it allows exactly the same thing, a buffer below which nobody gets in trouble.

 

[Mark Poole ModVP]

I see a lot of racers running "cheater" mufflers. (something installed on the stinger that is entirely fake). These are the people damaging this sport. These are the people that know about the DB limit and then come to the pond with their pipe disquised. And of course, these are the same people that will get mad when someone pulls out a DB meter. There is simply no excuse for having a loud boat. I have seen some wicked fast quiet boats with muffled tune pipes or REAL mufflers.

I run outboards. I don't have to worry about the DB limit. Even if the limit was 85 DB my boats would pass.

Makes me want to start an OUTBOARD ONLY club. Noise would not be an issue.

 

[just for fun]

In New Zealand we run a noise limit of 85db +/- 2db or you don't race. Insted of complaining about it why don't you do abit of research. Take a look at how others quieten motors i.e motor cycles, weedeaters, jetski's etc... It is possible but, if you think about it, it can be done.

 

[Piston1]

"Just For Fun"

Are you running IAW IMPBA rules at NZ.

 

[Brad Christy]

Guys,

What the HELL is going on?!?!?!? Is this thing on?............ Can anybody hear me?

The thorn here is NOT about how loud our boats are or what can be done to quiet them down or how it's done over THERE........

Get this into your skulls, people: NOBODY is saying that 92 dB is impossible to achieve. Not even difficult. It's obviously very feasible or NAVIGA wouldn't be running at 80 dB.

And while I'm on the NAVIGA thing...... I'm really getting tired of people referencing this issue to them. I mean we're talking about an organization that thinks it's perfectly fine to send a retrieve boat out while the race is still running. If they ever get THAT kink worked out of their books, THEN we can start to compare rules.

What is going on is this: A limit was set. People worked their set-ups to meet that limit. Then, come race day, they were told they were over the limit, and there was no consideration as to where the error was. The host club wanted to relax the rule, due to inconsistancies in the readings, and the board stuck them to the rule, without so much as a fleeting thought as to what might be causing these inconsistancies. These engines don't very so much as 1/2 dB at a given RPM. What caused them to read over the limit was influences out of their control. Out of anybody's control. And nobody is going to just wish them under their command, no matter how bad they want to. The only way around these influences is to get them out from between the meter and the boat. And to that end.........

As Joe has pointed out, a proposal WAS submitted that would most likely solve this problem. It seems to have fallen the same fate as all the others. Cast aside and forgotten, just like the data given to them six months ago, because it doesn''t fit in the fantasy.

I'm not trying to cause any trouble, here. I'm just as tired of this issue as anybody else. But, I'm also tired of the REAL issue getting swept under the rug. Until it gets cleaned up, it is going to raise it's ugly head every couple months or so. Take it to the bank.

Thanks. Brad.

Titan Racing Components

BlackJack Hydros

 

[Chris Wood]

I have had several people that have sent me p.m's regarding this issue.. they feel the same as me.. even a couple that are close with people on the board.. they all agree.. we keep shoving this in the corner and nobody gets it. why is it that people vote on this stuff and then i don't see half of them at the races?? is it me or are they just not there??

I have talked to alot and i stress ALOT of people this year that are tired of this and are considering hanging it up.. It has even crossed my mind.. All the effort put into this and for what, a continuation from the previous year, with more things added to the mix.

I said it before, i will leave for the nats under the limit.. If i go and get tossed knowing i am under when i left and changed nothing.. well you will have to be there to see the aftermath.

I am not , again NOT AGAINST THE RULE, JUST AS BRAD IS, just the way it is handled.

My question stands at this. Did the board ever set up a Committee to handle this topic and nothing but this topic , knowing that it is such a hot button issue?

And has the board talked to any of the PIPE MANUFACTURES to get there input on this very subject? Because if i was going to make a rule regarding noise. I would like the people that makes pipes involved.. after all, we have to be able to buy stuff that is READILY AVALIABLE..

Just curious.

and ya i know my spelling is bad lol

chris

 

[Stein Tumert]

And while I'm on the NAVIGA thing...... I'm really getting tired of people referencing this issue to them. I mean we're talking about an organization that thinks it's perfectly fine to send a retrieve boat out while the race is still running. If they ever get THAT kink worked out of their books, THEN we can start to compare rules.
Thanks. Brad.

Titan Racing Components

BlackJack Hydros

The FSR-V racing you refer to has nothing to do with the US heat racing. I suggest you find out what it is before you talk about it. You should in any case not bring that into the discussion about noise. The two topics are not linked at all....

I can only say, read the post from Don F again and again and again,.... get away from politics and ego and try to think about the future of this great sport!

Stein

 

[Niklas Edlund]

And while I'm on the NAVIGA thing...... I'm really getting tired of people referencing this issue to them. I mean we're talking about an organization that thinks it's perfectly fine to send a retrieve boat out while the race is still running. If they ever get THAT kink worked out of their books, THEN we can start to compare rules.
Thanks. Brad.

Titan Racing Components

BlackJack Hydros

And we (most part of the rest or the world outside US I guess) are kind of tired of people referencing of things they apperently dont know anything about... <_< As Stein mentioned, the retrieve boat during heats is only allowed in NAVIGA FSR-V endurance racing. They run 30 minute finals on an M-shaped course and they can throttle down to almost stand still. The rule is that they can never be closer to the retreive boat then 2 or 3 meters or they will either get a warning or disqualifyed for hitting the boat... Check the facts first.

The NAVIGA FSR-H rules (heatracing outriggers) are very much alike the US type of racing but with a lower set dB level.

Here's one example of how an V boat looks like:

https://www.intlwaters.com/gallery/displayimage...&fullsize=1

 

[TomMoorehouse]

ask yourself if all this complaining is helping the noise situation......

if the answer is no then please stop because all your doing is intimidating new people to the hobby that might be reading this.

 

[Brian Blazer]

Brad, you just upset the pride of a whole organization. Nice!

The internats last year definately sparked all the debate, and in good reason. IMPBA has learned a lot from that race and I believe are doing everything they can to not let that happen again. If a proposal is written, a responce should be made so the person who wrote the proposal doesn't feel it fell on deaf ears.

After reading some of the good posts, manufactures were mentioned. I got to thinking that maybe 92 is too high. If the limit was....say 85, this would force the pipe manufactures to step up their R&D. Most current pipes would be illegal, but we would all start on an even playing field. If a pipe producing 92db outperfoms a pipe at 85db (if this is the case), most people will buy the 92db pipe as performance is still the #1 factor.

I believe the racers are mostly at fault for not doing everything we can to quiet our boats down. I have been to many races where there are always one or two boats noticeably louder than the rest. These are the guys that like would rather have top end performance. If we can get those guys to get to the level of everyone else, then we will be slowly leveling the playing field.

Thinking out loud now...for debate and discussion only as no idea is a bad idea:

How about docking the loud boaters points? If someone is noticeable louder than the rest, dock them points each heat until they are in the same field as the rest. I don't care what db reading they are at. If they are not at the norm, then they are too loud. If we work together, we will eventually get quieter and quieter. Now you are not working to get to a specific db level. You are working on getting to your competitors level.

Brian

 

[Chris Wood]

Brad, you just upset the pride of a whole organization. Nice!
The internats last year definately sparked all the debate, and in good reason. IMPBA has learned a lot from that race and I believe are doing everything they can to not let that happen again. If a proposal is written, a responce should be made so the person who wrote the proposal doesn't feel it fell on deaf ears.

After reading some of the good posts, manufactures were mentioned. I got to thinking that maybe 92 is too high. If the limit was....say 85, this would force the pipe manufactures to step up their R&D. Most current pipes would be illegal, but we would all start on an even playing field. If a pipe producing 92db outperfoms a pipe at 85db (if this is the case), most people will buy the 92db pipe as performance is still the #1 factor.

I believe the racers are mostly at fault for not doing everything we can to quiet our boats down. I have been to many races where there are always one or two boats noticeably louder than the rest. These are the guys that like would rather have top end performance. If we can get those guys to get to the level of everyone else, then we will be slowly leveling the playing field.

Thinking out loud now...for debate and discussion only as no idea is a bad idea:

How about docking the loud boaters points? If someone is noticeable louder than the rest, dock them points each heat until they are in the same field as the rest. I don't care what db reading they are at. If they are not at the norm, then they are too loud. If we work together, we will eventually get quieter and quieter. Now you are not working to get to a specific db level. You are working on getting to your competitors level.

Brian

Brian i mentioned something similar last year.. Take each heat.. Db the field.. who ever was the loudest, give them a warning and work with them.. then go from there..

don't dq half the field.

Brings everyone together. then you don't have people looking at the d.b meter as a tool to help them out..

i seen alot of people last year looking and watching like a hawk the meter, tryin and hopeing a person would go over to bring it to the attention of the person watching it.

All in all i understand why we have to do this. But seriously, how many CLUBS across the country are going to first and for most, get the meters out at the races.. secondly even make this BOX.

and i am just curious. i heard that there was no meters present this year at the spring nats in atlanta?? is that correct or was I told wrong.. If i am right, again, how do you inforce something that is not standard across the board. and atlanta is a huge race.

chris

 

[Brian Blazer]

How about docking the loud boaters points? If someone is noticeable louder than the rest, dock them points each heat until they are in the same field as the rest. I don't care what db reading they are at. If they are not at the norm, then they are too loud. If we work together, we will eventually get quieter and quieter. Now you are not working to get to a specific db level. You are working on getting to your competitors level.
Brian

The more I think about this idea, the more I like it. No more db meters and wind/building variances. This idea takes the complications out of the scenario. It is easy to tell who is louder than the rest. If each race has two or three guys responsible for giving deductions (they all much agree), then this will force the loud boater to get with the program. Nobody gets DQ'd. Nobody gets last place points. Deductions add up which will make the noise level go down to a uniform level.

 

[Piston1]

Chris,

The Spring Nats noise deviation was posted in the flyer. Everybody knew before entering the race that the noise rule was not going to be enforced. The race pond in Atlanta is close to the end of the Hartsville International Airport runways which is the busiest airport in the country. Jets are constantly takingoff day and night flying over the pond at considerably low altitudes. Over the years we have seen and enjoyed many new and old jets on takeoff fly over the pond.

JOSE

 

[Ian Webster]

ask yourself if all this complaining is helping the noise situation......if the answer is no then please stop because all your doing is intimidating new people to the hobby that might be reading this.

Good post, I think most of the rest of the world don't understand the problem, you have a rule to work to, do it... If as much effort went into complying as is going into complaining this would be a non issue.

 

[piper_chuck]

How about docking the loud boaters points? If someone is noticeable louder than the rest, dock them points each heat until they are in the same field as the rest. I don't care what db reading they are at. If they are not at the norm, then they are too loud. If we work together, we will eventually get quieter and quieter. Now you are not working to get to a specific db level. You are working on getting to your competitors level.
Brian

The more I think about this idea, the more I like it. No more db meters and wind/building variances. This idea takes the complications out of the scenario. It is easy to tell who is louder than the rest. If each race has two or three guys responsible for giving deductions (they all much agree), then this will force the loud boater to get with the program. Nobody gets DQ'd. Nobody gets last place points. Deductions add up which will make the noise level go down to a uniform level.

To play devils advocate, what happens when everyone decides, "hmmm, the loudest person gets in trouble, so let's all be loud"?

Another scenario, one club has everyone down to 85 db and another club has everyone down to 88 db. Obviously, both clubs are doing a good job of getting the sound lowered. When someone with a 88 db boat shows up at the 85 db club are they going to have to bring their sound down to the 85 db level? Not knowing what standard another club is currently meeting is likely to discourage many from traveling.

I'm also curious how people will react to a committee of two or three making subjective decisions about who is the loudest. Won't such a plan open the potential for LOTS of hard feelings? While a few people seem to have issues with meters, at least the results they provide are not subjective. With a meter, EVERYONE has to conform to the results of that one meter that's in one spot.

 

[Brian Blazer]

Chuck,

Good points.

When I say if a boat is louder, I mean this is the only engine you can hear on the lake. It is subjective, no doubt about that. Is there a way to make it less subjective? To me, it is obvious when a boat is louder. I have not been to too many races where a DB meter was used. Would this be easier? I don't know, it is open for discussion.

Brian

 

[Don Ferrette]

I'm also curious how people will react to a committee of two or three making subjective decisions about who is the loudest.

This has already happened. A guy from D.C. back in the early 90's was kickin' everyone's azz at a prominent NAMBA event & got told he was too loud yet nobody produced a meter, the powers that be just said "you sound too loud". Another boater even stepped up & said he knew **** well he was clearly the loudest in the class (and he had just run in the same heat) not the first guy because he lost his muffler, but since the second guy wasn't a front runner they ignored him. After knocking the first guy out of contention for a couple rounds as he tried to quiet his boat they then said we were mistaken and he was o.k. At that point he was out of contention to win. <_<

 

[Preston_Hall]

Guys,
What the HELL is going on?!?!?!? Is this thing on?............ Can anybody hear me?

The thorn here is NOT about how loud our boats are or what can be done to quiet them down or how it's done over THERE........

Get this into your skulls, people: NOBODY is saying that 92 dB is impossible to achieve. Not even difficult. It's obviously very feasible or NAVIGA wouldn't be running at 80 dB.

And while I'm on the NAVIGA thing...... I'm really getting tired of people referencing this issue to them. I mean we're talking about an organization that thinks it's perfectly fine to send a retrieve boat out while the race is still running. If they ever get THAT kink worked out of their books, THEN we can start to compare rules

All that and more.

DING DING!!!! WAKE UP BOYS!

The rule does not even apply to ANY local clubs. ONLY to those who wish to enforce it. Read you rule book. The book is ONLY a set of guidelines. I said this LAST time.

I just think that having to qualify as a rocket scientist and having to have a db ready for flight to the moon was a little excessive. OK, so was that analogy. But now, before we have our little get together at record trials, we must get the db meter calibrated. I do not see a calibration certificate with the timing equipment. Maybe a certified db meter should be included with the timing equipment and provided for ALL national events.

Where do you send a db meter, how much does it cost, and what is the turn around time?

I want to propose that all starting clocks/tapes/CDs and any future measuring device show certificate of calibration.

If you want to talk mufflers, or how quiet/loud your boat is, or the geographical location of your pond then start another thread because you are hijacking this one with useless input that we have all seen before. It is sad that you cannot see this being driven to a "locked" thread.

CHEERS

 

[piper_chuck]

Chuck,
Good points.

When I say if a boat is louder, I mean this is the only engine you can hear on the lake. It is subjective, no doubt about that. Is there a way to make it less subjective?

Use a meter? Sorry, couldn't resist.

To me, it is obvious when a boat is louder. I have not been to too many races where a DB meter was used. Would this be easier? I don't know, it is open for discussion.

I agree and know exactly what you're saying. It's not unusual to hear boats that everyone feels are louder than the rest. A meter is definitely one way to take the subjectivity out of determining if that boat is really louder or not.

 

[Kelly Miller]

We are located in a very nice public park......and anything I can do to make sure I don't lose my water I am ready to do. We have not been issued any warnings aboiut noise and in fact we have had quite a bit of help from them improving our site. We are going to measure the noise levels at our race for several reasons.....(1) we don't want to loose our Pond. (2) It is an issue important enough that our sanctioning body has made it a rule. (3) I want to be able to support and be competative in areas that are sensitive to noise.

What I am sensitive to:

How accurate is my measurements? I am not a sound engineer..

At our district race am I going to penalize for over........NO

Will I take notes for study who is and is not over.......Absolutely

Will I tell the owner of the boat that they are over on our meter......Absolutely, for information purposes.

Will I expect to see muffler type devises or pipes used.......Yes I will

We have not measured noise before so it will be very interesting to see the results and I do support noise limits but I am not comfortable docking points to racers until I am 100% positive of our measuring system.

I feel it is very important to let the racers know the results of our testing and the parameters of our equipment. (I don't know that I can place the meter between a minimum of 4' and Max 10'). I very much appreciate the people involved with setting these guidelines, I am sure it took longer than 10 minutes to formulate and exposed themselves to critisizm ( very hard to please everyone) and I am sure the rule was not created to target anyone specifically.

We have a very nice race facility and in fact we have expressed interest within our club to host a nationals and I certainly want to have some experience with measuring sound which will give myself and our club confidence if we had to enforce with absolutes (ie) Nationals. Hopefully also the racer would then gain confidence in our ability to deliver accurate information in reference to sound levels.....which would make the 92 db rule of little controversy.

Everyone agrees that 92 db level is OK........what we lack is confidence in the results.

If at all possible it would be interesting to have data from different race sites compiled on specific boats and compared.

How many people have measured sound at their home pond?

It is my hope that my comments have been taken as positive and my explanation of what will make me comfortable in integrating the rule towards confident enforcement as a step in the right direction.

I began Racing RC boats in 1977 with my Dad and now Race with my son. I enjoy competative, organized racing and want to be as helpful as I can as an individual to the overall efforts of National level competition.

any suggestions thoughts or comments to my plan would be great.

Kelly Miller