Turbine Scales.

[Don Ferrette]

Don,

Todd would like to be able to run his boat for records.

We have classes on the books now "for records only".

These boats, if I'm not mistaken, would follow the gas scale hull rules. What would have to be addressed is the engine rules, any accompanying safety rules, and of course any insurance issues.

He is just looking for some serious conversation about it at the BOD level. "No" without some discussion doesn't set well with any of us.

Personally, they are too rich for my blood, but I'd love to see these boats eligible to run for records if we could pull it off. If not, at least we can say we tried.

The gas scale rules would be a good place to start to draw up the hull section of rules for a turbine application. With that being said the next thing to look at is the overall impact on the IMPBA membership, what does it bring to the table as a whole for the organization. Are we creating something that only an extremely small percentage of members could even afford let alone build? And lastly the safety aspect comes into play as well, the AMA guidelines regarding turbines might be a good place to look for ideas in that regard. While open discussion doesn't hurt honestly I see this as a tough sell and hard to justify especially since the BOD has been pounded on as of late about the IMPBA already having too many classes........................

 

[Lennard Cuenco]

great running boat todd

guys in germany have been posting video of 2 of these running at the same time...very cool

I have been able to get the boat to 118 mph, but that was with a voltron gps.

 

[Doug Smock]

I don't disagree Don.

 

[julianconde]

Don and Doug as far as the engine spec rules. i used to fly turbine models and have a few turbines sitting at the house. theres only a 2 manufactures that build marine turbines. Jetcat and Wren Turbines are the only 2 that im aware that makes turbines for marine they only make a specific engine meaning type or Class. there are so many different manufactures of turbines, Jetcat, Wren, Jet central,Kingtech, Behotec, AMT, PST, Jetjoe, Ram ect. and also theres so many diffrent types depending on the airframe as well. example jetcat has the P60,70,80,120,200 class turbines with marines theres only one type.

As far as Jets on boats same safety rules will apply as AMA except you dont need a turbine waiver since it does not fly, Fire extinguisher, Manual fuel shut off valves, fail safe is a must and madatory for jets and it should be the same for turbine boats but competence of the boater has to be observed to ensure he knows what hes doing knows the starting procedures, shut down procedures and in case of a fire on start up what are those procedures as well. Also if your considering doing a class just for saw my recommendation would be just dont limit it to scales theres alot of jet Catamarans out there as well other than scale boats.Then you have the issue of some boats out there already have Twin Jet engines on them too like the Mystic Twin Jet Catamarans. as far as a class Jet would be prefered as the overall just like you have steam on the record books. like that people can build a scale, Catamaran, Mono ect.

theres alot of different variables and it comes with alot of hazzards as well.

my only concern is the safety of the membership and spectators a Turbine Powered Boat that goes wild or out of control if it hits anything it will explode just like our turbine jets. Its a HUGE safety risk. not saying it cant happen but the spectators will have to be further away from the Pond in case of a accident the risk can be minimized at least some.

Just my opinion.

Julian

 

[Hydro Junkie]

The safety issue is the big one. After watching a video on Youtube last night of an R/C F14 crashing, with the subsequent fireball and plume of dark blue/black smoke, do we really want to consider this? The Jet-A or kerosene used to fuel an R/C turbine is highly flammable and is a considerable safety risk. At the Seattle Seafair races, any time a boat is refueled, there is a 50ft area around the boat and fuel trucks that is roped off to all but boat crews, security personnel and fully geared up firefighters. This applies to the turbines as well as the piston boats that run on alcohol(the U-3) or high test avgas(the HARM boats). Granted, we're not looking at a truck with a couple of thousand gallons or boats loaded with 60 or so gallons of Jet-A like at Seafair, but it's still a concern when you look at the specs posted earlier, 8.8 ounces per minute at full throttle, 2 ounces per at idle means having to carry no less than 25-30 ounces for a three minute run. To some, that would be a bomb waiting to explode, especially if you get an inexperienced operator, without the knowledge/experience Julian has, at the controls

 

[JimZaremski]

Jet-A/Kerosene is far less flammable than gas or glow fuel.

 

[Hydro Junkie]

It's not the flammability that's the issue, it's the heat generated by the turbine and the quantity of fuel that needs to be carried. As the air goes through the various compressor stages, it's compressed and, as a result, heats up both the air and compressors blades. When you add burning fuel to the mix, in the event of a crash, that heated metal and fuel burning in the hot section with ignite any fuel vapor that gets out of the tanks. These two videos show the dangers very graphically:


What you have to remember is that, on the first video, the flames were due to excess fuel dumped out of the burner cans and into the hot section, the exhaust pipe and engine bay where the vapors were ignited by fuel burning in the burner cans due to the engine starting. On the second video, the fire in the engine bay started from ruptured fuel lines OUTSIDE OF THE TURBINE CASE due to the hot metal case and the 1000 degree exhaust going into the back of the boat.

 

[julianconde]

Jet-A/Kerosene is far less flammable than gas or glow fuel.

Have you every Flown Turbine models ?? i have seen some burn on the ground just in the initial stages of the starting procedures too much fuel in the turbine and the whole thing went up in flames. If you have seen jet crashes they blow up like a bomb a boat would be no different

Both Jet A and Jet A-1 have a flash point higher than 38 °C (100 °F), with an autoignition temperature of 210 °C (410 °F). the engines rear cone get hottor than that

Jetcat Turbines Exhaust gas temperature: 480 ° C 730 ° C

 

[T.S.Davis]

In NAMBA the boat class must be listed in the rule book to qualify for liability insurance.

Might be true.

However.

That's not in the rule book.

That's not on our membership cards.

That's not in any documentation on the NAMBA website.

That's not in any documentation distributed to the NAMBA membership.

 

[lohring]

That's true, but the turbine issue was debated several years ago when a demonstration was going to be run at a race. At that time It was determined that NAMBA liability insurance wouldn't cover turbines. It has been the general policy that if an engine, motor/battery combination, or hull type isn't listed in the rule book it isn't covered.

Lohring Miller

 

[T.S.Davis]

That's true, but the turbine issue was debated several years ago when a demonstration was going to be run at a race. At that time It was determined that NAMBA liability insurance wouldn't cover turbines. It has been the general policy that if an engine, motor/battery combination, or hull type isn't listed in the rule book it isn't covered.

Lohring Miller

Yes, failure to disclose this to the membership is okay with everyone? It ain't right. I wonder what other rules are now "general policy" that are not in writing, not published, and have never been relayed to the members. We should stop printing the rule book. Save the dough. We'll all just call our president to find out what the rules are.

You have to fit a class or not covered. So no P limited crackerbox or jersey skiff. Is twin hydro a class?

Is it just the class rules? or the whole book?

 

[Samuel Hagan JR]

This thread went from good info, to safety, to insurance, and now to rule book not being correct. Way to stay on topic.

 

[wayne middlemiss]

Lipo,s or kero both have same potential for explosions due to miss handling , both have risk & where do you draw the line on it

 

[T.S.Davis]

Sorry, guys are being told they can't run the boats based on a rule that doesn't exist. Seemed topical.

A new killer tech and it's being shot down by organized racing. Hey, just like when the real boats started running turbines. Fear of the unknown. Same as when LiPo was introduced.

 

[lohring]

This is an example of what is NOT covered. Neither the hull type nor the power plant (either turbine or electric ducted fan) is listed in the rule book.



This is an example of a non rule book class that is covered since both the hull type (either gas catamaran or hydro) and engine are listed. The class, gas outboard tunnel, won't be run at the Nationals but can be run at local clubs and would be insured.

Lohring Miller

 

[JimZaremski]

This thread went from good info, to safety, to insurance, and now to rule book not being correct. Way to stay on topic.

it's like an alternate version of Godwin's Law.

 

[Hydro Junkie]

Sounds like a well "rounded" thread to me. It covers pretty much everything about the turbine question

 

[Keith Halverson]

It sounds like the only way it could move forward, is with a separate organization.

 

[julianconde]

I see a bunch of Jet R/C planes. Why isn't there more Turbine R/C boats. Is it the cost?

Sam you aked a question and everything that has been discussed in this thread has everything to do with your original post. from the cost, safety, rules, specs ect its a very good thread

 

[julianconde]

It sounds like the only way it could move forward, is with a separate organization.

organization is not the problem Keith. its everything mentioned on this thread..