Tunnel Building Secrets

[Tommy Lee]

Do I have your attention? The biggest secret for people wanting to build tunnels for sale to the public is BE ABLE TO PRODUCE THEM!!. After reading the post on the tune pipe situation I thought about many years ago when I got into the hobby. The tunnels that were on the market were pathetic. I was building full size tunnel boats that were winning races so I knew I could build a better model, so I built a 3.5 and 7.5 hull that was winning all the races and everybody wanted them. I was able to produce enough boats to keep everyone happy until a few years later when Rod Geraghy and I got together and designed the XT-460 which was the beginning of the modern-era tunnel hull. I went into production and suddenly everybody in the world wanted one of these boats and guess what- I COULD NOT KEEP UP WITH THE DEMAND, although I was working sometimes seven days a week and 12 to 14 hours a day. At one point half the people in the boating world was mad at me and felt they were being treated unfairly because I would not send them a boat. A small, one man operation cannot supply boats for the entire population. What happens a lot in this hobby is a new product comes out that everybody wants and the builder cannot produce, so please be aware of this if you are looking to get into the business end of a great hobby. Also for the buyer you should ask some questions-is it available,how long will it be available,how long before I can get it,etc. Nothing turns a boater off more than showing up at a race and seeing the latest trick boat winning the races knowing they don't have one and cannot get one, so builders-BE ABLE TO PRODUCE. TOMMY LEE

 

[VansRacing]

Very true Tommy.

You built a ton of boats that have won a lot of races over the years. If you make it to the Internats this year, drop by our tent and visit.

-Carl,

 

[Jerry Dunlap]

Hey Tommy Lee!!!

That's why Ol' JD has Great Planes/Tower Hobbies building model tunnel boats in China. They will be able to provide boats, they own the factory!!!

Years ago, I decided to make WOF 3.5 Tunnels. I made about 8 or 9 and then realized I didn't like doing production. Gary Preusse still runs his "Red Dunny" after all these years.

JD

 

[Mike Hughes]

That is why I don't advertise. I know if I did I would have too much work for a guy who already has a day job that takes up too much of his time. Oh yeah and the day job pays better.

Mike

 

[Tommy Lee]

People always said how much fun I must be having building toy race boats, but build a coulple hundred of these puppies and then tell me how much fun you are having. Also having to do business every weekend at the races did take away some of my racing fun but I managed to do okay. If I could go back and do it again though I wouldn"t change a thing because I met some of the nicest people on the planet. Well, maybe I would get a bigger building and hire some people to make more boats. Ahh-hindsight-isn"t it great.

 

[Lake S.P.O.R.T.]

You know Tommy, there are a bunch of people out there that really don't realize where all this neat stuff comes from. Five acres, big building, paved parking, showroom and a big lighted sign out front. YEAH RIGHT!! I learned that working for a lifesize boat builder. I have seen a 40 ft. $300,000 boat laminated, assembled, painted and rigged in a 1500 sq. ft. shop. Potential buyers would call and ask if they could come tour the "plant". We would chuckle and say, "sure, come on down!" The guy is still building boats and he is rich. Low overhead is great!!

DUBL-TUNL BOATS...still working towards the 5 acres, building, parking, showroom and the sign out front. :lol:

 

[LawlessMan]

I can add my two cents and say that I know just how you guys feel. Every time I think I'm getting a few drives ahead of the demand, bang, an order comes in that cleans me out, followed by a couple more who have to wait, wait, wait,'til I get some more done. Ideally, I should start a hundred or so at a time, but, not even calculating the material cost, a hundred drives (or boats, or most anything hand made or hand finished) represents a LOT of hours at the machines. Sure, I'd like to be able to whip one off the shelf every time an order comes in, but in plain fact, I've found it very difficult to match the production to the demand. If I start a bunch of 7.5's, half the time they sit around unfinished while I rush out some 3.5's, then someone wants a couple 7.5's that I said I started waaaay back when, and can't understand why they aren't finished. The dealers are more understanding than the general public, 'cause most of them are part-timin' it too, but they hate to lose customers when they can't get the product. And I can't blame them for that. When you rely on a single source to supply an item, as I do for the flexshafts, and that source gets too busy to do your order, you end up waiting forever, like I did this past winter. They're an example of a huge production-oriented company that can't handle a small order. That can hurt everybody down the line. It is hard being a one-man operation and having a life too. It's also a pain in the a** when you can't get to do what you got into the hobby for in the first place. Internats?? Not last year, the year before, the one before that, or this year. Maybe, if I'm real lucky, next year. Namba Nats (only 5 hours away from where I am)? Same story. I'll be milling, and drilling, and sanding and polishing, and assembling and packing and shipping for most of that time. I have a hard time squeezing out a weekend for a local race. And don't ask my wife what I look like, I think she still believes I have brown hair. (LOL)

Fred Howe

 

[Brian_Nelsen]

Edited to add the comments below are not bitching just stating some facts. and maybe we need to change the name of the thread to manufacturing advice not just about tunnels although all the manufacturers that have posted make tunnel related products.

Ok time for me to jump me here. Let’s see, I have over 30 boat molds in the shop. Tried to make production boats, I am way to slow. Tried to have someone else make em they want way too much to do it. So molds sit on shelf.

Next in my infinite wisdom I decide to produce my own R/C engine. Four years and it’s basically ready for production but I don't have the funds to produce a die cast mold to make pistons economically. Let see I have about 75,000 dollars spent just getting to the point I am at. The machines I purchased to make the parts cost 125,000 plus tooling of 24,000. Ok so a little more time and we go for it and produce engine in quantity (Engine will be raced at the internats) for sale to the public.

I am set up to handle the production of 1000's of engines but getting the thing to market is where we are at.

My prop shaft assemblies are on the market (7.5 will be available at the internats) and things there are going great.

My point is, there are two factors that work against us in our endeavors. First is time, this all started with a hobby. Second is money, if we had more we could hire people, buy die's and machines to help out. I think we are all intelligent people that let our passion lead us in the direction we are going.

As manufacturers I believe we are doing the right thing we just have to weigh all the issues and not over commit our time and resources.

By the way this is a great thread, maye we can start adding ideas to help each other. Maybe we could form some type of association to help each other. Just my thoughts.

Edited to add: does anyone have an idea other than die casting to produce large volumes of pistons economically? I have several things working but extra ideas and options are good.

Brian

 

[Grimracer]

Guys,

As a manufacture of products for the model boat industry i accept the challenges of product fulfillment.

For instance.. we have to buy 500 Nemesis kit boxes at a clip…. Think we have sold that many hulls?.. You dont race the box either do you… Added race winning value?.. or a necessity…? O yea.. we offer more then one boat kit too.. The boxes are not the same … Just one TINY aspect of the challenges of being a MFG..

Agian.. we accept the challenges..

Brian..

I do however like the idea of an association.. have MFGs get together and help by setting some costing guide lines.. get some technical help and support each other..

Not a bad idea.. its just i have no idea if its best or if we have the resources to pull this off..

Anyway...

Grim

 

[Tommy Lee]

It's interesting how all small businesses have the same problems no matter what your building. I too had the problem with the boxes, they wanted me to buy 1000 to get a low price. Where would I keep 1000 boxes even if I could pay for them? So I made my own boxes and this meant more time away from building boats. Oh well I guess the love for the hobby is what kept me going and it sounds like it is the same for everyone else out there in the R/C world. It's amazing what we will do to see that little rocket go down the lake on the pipe, on the needle and on the edge--WOW!!

 

[VansRacing]

Tommy,

You and Rod need to get your heads together and design something new. Find someone to manufacture it for you. If you only had 10 or 12 of them made, I am sure you would have no problem finding someone to drive them. I would love that!

-Carl,

 

[Brian_Nelsen]

You know Mike brings up a good point here. The things that go into a product that do not truly add value. The box, instructions, labeling and not to forget getting the things shipped. I wonder if people other than us realize the cost of those things. Also like Tommy said just storing stuff can be an issue.

Mike is right we have all excepted the challenge and put all we have into our products. We also love what we do and thats great.

You know maybe we could start this little association by sharing this like packaging resources and such. I mean if Carl ships a boat he needs a box to ship it in. If he buys 10 boxes they cost him x amount. If he teams up with another boat builder lets say Mark Hopper and they buy enough boxes together to get a better price they both win. I know 10 boxes is probably not a real good number but I have shipped boats and those boxes are expensive and take up tons of room. Also some one like myself and maybe Mike could go together and buy plastic bagges in a larger quantity and safe some bucks. We are not hurting each other by doing this and it really does not effect our businesses except that we reduce some packaging costs. Just some thoughts.

 

[Jack Garcia]

Edited to add: does anyone have an idea other than die casting to produce large volumes of pistons economically? I have several things working but extra ideas and options are good.

Brian

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Brian,

Have you cosidered investment casting your pistons?

Just a thought.

 

[John Knight]

You know Mike brings up a good point here. The things that go into a product that do not truly add value. The box, instructions, labeling and not to forget getting the things shipped. I wonder if people other than us realize the cost of those things. Also like Tommy said just storing stuff can be an issue.
Mike is right we have all excepted the challenge and put all we have into our products. We also love what we do and thats great.

You know maybe we could start this little association by sharing this like packaging resources and such. I mean if Carl ships a boat he needs a box to ship it in. If he buys 10 boxes they cost him x amount. If he teams up with another boat builder lets say Mark Hopper and they buy enough boxes together to get a better price they both win. I know 10 boxes is probably not a real good number but I have shipped boats and those boxes are expensive and take up tons of room. Also some one like myself and maybe Mike could go together and buy plastic bagges in a larger quantity and safe some bucks. We are not hurting each other by doing this and it really does not effect our businesses except that we reduce some packaging costs. Just some thoughts.

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Guys,

Just want to throw this out for consideration and not saying that it is ultimate solution. Just a way one mfg handles it. Seaducer Boats (Jerry Crowther) ships their boats out in a very strong corrugated box. You pay a fee deposit ($40.00) several years ago for me. When you return it, they refund you the money. They construct the box, rig it up for reinforcement to protect the boat, and do not have to keep large quantities on hand. Or go with a large production run of boxes. Jerry told me a couple of years ago he keeps about 6 to 8 of each size on hand at any time. The vast majority come back because of the $40.00 tab. What they have created is a reusable shipping box until it is worn out. That works for production runs with built boats. Kits in boxes are another challenge. Once I have the boat do I need a box on hand to keep? Something to consider.

Just another potential solution.

 

[VansRacing]

I have been involved in manufacturing fiberglass tunnel boats since 1985 and in that time I have streamlined some things in my process.

On the box note, all of my boats will fit into this one box and I modify the inserts to fit. This is cheaper due to having only one isze made box and the inserts are not hard to make.

A box that throws you into an oversize catagory will be a costly mistake if you have 250 -500 already made. An oversize box costs you an additional $12.00 each (on top of the regular shipping cost) because of its size. I use U.S. Priority service. My shipping box measures 83 inches when measured around one end and down one side. The Postal limit is 84". I pay $5.50 each for these boxes.

The biggest manufacturing concern I have at this time is the amount of time I am exposed to the resins and acetone used in the process. I try not to expose myself to the fumes any more than I have to. I am currently working on a system that provides a steady stream of fresh air to me all the times while working my molds.

This may seem like a no brainer, but you can not just set a fan up and blow the fumes away from you as this will cause problems with your layup.

As Tommy said, this is not easy work and you will not get rich building model boats as some may think. If that were the case, I would be asleep in a hammock on some forgotten island right now.

If you are planing to build fiberglass boats, be safe doing it. Too much long term exposure these chemicals is not good.

-Carl,

 

[Brian_Nelsen]

Edited to add: does anyone have an idea other than die casting to produce large volumes of pistons economically? I have several things working but extra ideas and options are good.

Brian

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Brian,

Have you cosidered investment casting your pistons?

Just a thought.

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Yep I have the investment cast now. It works good but it ain't cheap. We custom blend the alloy for them as well.

Thanks For the input

Brian

 

[Grimracer]

Our boxing needs are a little different.. As you may or may not know we spend a lot of money on the box art.. We fully expect out boat kit to sit on a store shelf.. Its our last chance to sell the product..

We also have a shipping carton for our Villain S1.. This box will ship from one to four kits in the same box with just the slit of a knife.

I have spent over 2,000 dollars in boxing in the last 2.5 years.. not fun.. however important.. who wants a banged up box of boat parts..

Also for us we have went the wood kit route.. I have been told by one very prominent racer that i was nuts for doing this.. OK.. im nuts... If you enjoy building your boats from wood kits i have a great experience for you.. if not.. there are some dam good hulls out there to chose from. Its all good..

Grim

 

[Precision Boats]

Guys

We manufacture and machine parts everyday.We never have any problems. Life is always great. No scrap no mistkes LOL Where's my Zaxan bottle at.......

:lol: :lol:

Tim

 

[dave roach]

Hi Brian

I'am a tool maker in a die casting shop maybe the company I work for can help you out on pistons. let me know.

Thanks Dave Roach

 

[LawlessMan]

Every other group of people doing similar things has an association. We should have an association. Associations have meetings (some call them conventions), where those like-minded people get together and share ideas like you guys have been doing here. Heck, even morticians have conventions where they go to hear about all the newest styles in caskets and the latest stretch-limo hearses (wink) We should consider something like that. (no, not the stretch-limo hearses, conventions).

On the packaging issue, I have boiled my packaging needs down to two widths of poly sleeving and 3 sizes of "zip-lock" bags for all my drives and related products. A cheap heat-sealer (Harbor Freight, $20.) for the sleeves. All my labels are made up using a $10.00 computer label program, then printed onto colored paper I buy at Wal-Mart. If I change a price, add a product, whatever, a little nip-and-tuck to the label and I'm good to go. I buy the ziplocks from American Science and Surplus (sciplus.com) for $1.00 a hundred. Not too many choices of sizes, but cheap. If you check their site, you can find all sorts of packaging leftover from other companies' mistakes, overstocks, or outright demise. For instance. you can get "clamshell" display cases made of that impervious clear plastic that a lot of products are being packaged in, for around a dollar apiece. They also have many styles of labels, as well as tape and other packaging paraphenalia. Check them out. Their catalog is "folksy" but they have some great bargains. You can also buy bundles of bags at hobby shops, rock and mineral shows and places that sell supplies for people who sew. More choices, more expensive.

I don't think I need pre-printed boxes for my shipments, because boxes come in all the time from larger companies who can afford to buy them in bulk. I save the clean ones (be sure to strip off the labels as soon as possible) and trash the rest. I also get FREE boxes, shipping labels, and tape rolls from the Post Office for Priority Mail shipping, which is pretty much all I use, except internationally. I get so many of the darned styrofoam peanuts that I have to recycle a lot of them, but I try to use them, as well as bubble wrap and wadded paper whenever I can.

One thing I've noticed about industrial suppliers, like MSC, and McMaster-Carr is that they limit the sizes of boxes they use. It appears that they'd rather use a larger than necessary box and fill it with wadded (nice clean, brown butcher-style) paper than have to stock a smaller size for a few items. (It's probably cheaper to buy 10,000 of one size and some brown paper, than it is to buy 1000 of 10 sizes). They also use pre-printed ziplock bags for a lot of small items in their boxes, but it looks like they only have one size. Simplicity.

There is just one item I buy especially made up for my products, and that's the decals I ship with every drive. Those are important enough I left them to professionals. (AxxentSigns, Randall Thomas and Julian S -I still can't spell his last name-). Some things you just can't do yourself.