TS2 kibbles and bits

[Ronald van Essen]

About this porpoising

I know that the real tunnel boats have similar problems, only the guys worked out a good setup so its minimal.

Often the reason a tunnel experiences a "porpoise" at a particular speed is quite simple. The tunnel hull gains it's performance from a unique balance between aerodynamic lift generated by the aerofoil/tunnel configuration, and the hydrodynamic lift generated by the running pads (on the water). The "hump" or "transition zone" occurs at a different velocity with each tunnel boat and setup. The hump zone is unique to tunnel hulls, and represents the speed at which the amount of lift becomes predominantly aerodynamic (air lift from tunnel and aerofoil) compared to hydrodynamic (water lift from sponsons).

At the speed that the transition occurs, the hull will always experience some longitudinal instability - like porpoising (but not always in that form). The hull experiences a dynamic CofG shift through the "hump" zone. The transition velocity can be accurately determined for any given hull design and setup, and can even be altered by hull design, weight distribution, propeller selection and engine/hull setup. Engine height adjustment can help find the best setup to "smooth out" the transition. Sometimes unplanned 'hook' or 'rocker' in the running pad surfaces can exaggerate the performance effects thru the "hump zone". Weight movement will also change the speed at which the "hump zone" occurs.

Hope this clarifies a little the problem the TS2 has, since its in the design for some part ( I am not saying its a bad design !!! )

Ronald.

 

[Jerry Wyss]

Javier, Well Your Gettin' Into It Now, hahaha,, I've a had a few boats that looked like that on the bottom.

Thats a tough job with just a sanding block,, I have had good luck with a horizontal table top belt sander.

You have to draw some reference lines first with a fine "Sharpie" pen or you can get outa bounds quick with belt power.

Is the rear "primered section" flat the whole way?

Jerry

 

[BigRed]

Hey Ronald... great explanation on the Tunnel design... I'm very inclined that my problem was with the bottom of the boat since it was ok one day and then 1 week later it was as bad as it can get + a lump on the bottom rear center section were the yellow paint is gone...

Jerry... the primed sections are flat... after removing the strake and making the whole thing flat the piece I added followed the same patern... What I do noticed about the bottom of the TS2 is that the angle of the bottom piece is not the same... it goes from less angle on the back and more as it goes forward... When laid on a flat surface the sharp inside edges are flat..

For a belt sander the closest thing I have available is one of those hand belt sanders... I think I can do it just by hand... just will take lot's more time and patience... fortunately I'm good at that + the better results I saw today I'll be ok.

Almost out of Nitro and also out of time here in the US. will be Flying back to Panama on the 28th so then I need to find me a good running place over there... The Canal and it's lakes are just about a 20min drive from where I live... Only bad thing is that most of the places are very wide open spots at the Gatun lake... that's a little risky with no recovery boat.. will see how that goes

 

[Jerry Wyss]

Javier, I don't know if you have run a model boat on a large lake or not, but the wave

action can get big! Sometimes the "far apart" waves aren't easy to see but they are

Real trouble for fast moving small boats,, I'd hate to hear about something bad happening

to that fine running Thunder Tiger,, screw the boat! :lol: :lol: Just Kidding

 

[BigRed]

Yeah I know about those waves... My Dad used to own a Alisson Racing Bass boat with a modded Evinrude 140.. and we used to go there... water is fairly calm for the first mile or two... We could trim it up and go full speed with no problems... waves could be made just by other boats and sometimes those nasty tug boat waves... but after that when it opened up the wind would get things very nasty... There is a section of the canal itself that on summer due to the winds you could easily find a long neverending sequence of 5-7ft waves... But I'm not gonna go there

I'll get some pics and videos from down there... TT will probably get a extra harness to be extra sure it don't dive on me...

 

[Nitrolizer]

Javier...

Yikes, is that a TS2?? :huh: But I guess the most important thing is that it runs good

Sounds like you're getting closer and closer to getting it to run without bouncing, keep up the good work.

Guys... How did you secure your fuel tank? The manual suggests to use the hook and loop material provided. But my new tank has a convex bottom and top surface, while the tank on the picture in the manual has a flat bottom surface (the old GP tank?).

I tried to use the hook & loop material on the oval bottom side of the tank but it wouldn't work very well.

Could anyone who is using the tank provided with the boat (the new one, not the GP tank) take some pictures of the tank mounted on the TS2? It would be a great help. Thanks.

Thomas

 

[piper_chuck]

Guys... How did you secure your fuel tank? The manual suggests to use the hook and loop material provided. But my new tank has a convex bottom and top surface, while the tank on the picture in the manual has a flat bottom surface (the old GP tank?).

I tried to use the hook & loop material on the oval bottom side of the tank but it wouldn't work very well.

Could anyone who is using the tank provided with the boat (the new one, not the GP tank) take some pictures of the tank mounted on the TS2? It would be a great help. Thanks.

I don't have pics, but I mounted mine using the hook and loop material. I put the flat side down and the stopper oriented toward the stern and on the left side. The rear of the tank (not counting the stopper) ended up 83 mm from the surface where the engine mounts.

 

[theringwah2002]

Heres how I mounted mine (custom tank) stuck down with silicon.

Mounted the tnk forward to reduce the amount of weight needed up front.

https://www.intlwaters.com/gallery/displayimage...m=322&pos=4

MJ

 

[BigRed]

Yep That's a TS2 thomas....

I have the same fuel tank that you have... 2 sides flat and 2 sides are curved... I believe you're trying to set the curve part down to avoid the steering rods to rub against the tank... don't worry about that... just set the flat side down and let the rods rub against it..

MJ has a metal tank... you can buy those also.... Here's a pic of my tank...

Javier

 

[Nitrolizer]

MJ...

Great paintjob! Looks real nice. Good work!

Mounting the tank a bit forward to not have to put so much lead in the front seems to be a good idea, I never thought of that. One thing though, the boat should be balanced at 9.5 inches right? Is that with or without any fuel in the tank?

Javier,

you read my mind! Yes, I was trying to set the curved side down so that the steering rods won't be rubbing so hard against the tank.

How come you decided to have the throttle rod over the tank instead of to the left (looking from the angle of the picture) of it, close to one of the steering rods?

You guys are great!

Thomas

 

[BigRed]

About the throttle well... the first time I assembled it it was like that and the cable does'nt hit anything there so I just left it like that... nothing in particular

Yeah I also was trying to see how to put the fuel tank with the curved side down so it would not rub the rods... till I came here and read somewhere that it did'nt matter...

Let us know how everything comes along... One thing I did when breaking in I hooked up a water line to the engine and burned 1 tank of nitro thru it while on the bench... I just wanted to e sure the thing did'nt stop... When breaking in car engines the stall very easily so I was afraid of that... after that I ensured the needle was rich enough and that the engine had a good idle and then I launched it with a little more confidence

I'm sure everyone has it's own way of breaking in a engine... I personally don't like breaking in the engine too cold... I like running in around 170f-190f...

I found out that the water cooling system in this engines is very efficient... in fact it keeps the engine way too cold... a lot of people restrict the water flow so that the temp will rise some.. If ou try to make the temperature go up by closing the carb needle without restricting the water you most likely end up lean... I have a Onboard Temp gauge for my car so I used that on the boat to monitor that temp. My engine is running around the 250f which is good temp for car racing.

I guess I'll write that down since you're already mounting the tank.. that probably means you're close to starting the engine

Javier

 

[Ralphie]

About the throttle well... the first time I assembled it it was like that and the cable does'nt hit anything there so I just left it like that... nothing in particular

Yeah I also was trying to see how to put the fuel tank with the curved side down so it would not rub the rods... till I came here and read somewhere that it did'nt matter...

Let us know how everything comes along... One thing I did when breaking in I hooked up a water line to the engine and burned 1 tank of nitro thru it while on the bench... I just wanted to e sure the thing did'nt stop... When breaking in car engines the stall very easily so I was afraid of that... after that I ensured the needle was rich enough and that the engine had a good idle and then I launched it with a little more confidence

I'm sure everyone has it's own way of breaking in a engine from no water... I personally don't like breaking in the engine too cold... I like running in around 170f-190f...

I found out that the water cooling system in this engines is very efficient... in fact it keeps the engine way too cold... a lot of people restrict the water flow so that the temp will rise some.. If ou try to make the temperature go up by closing the carb needle without restricting the water you most likely end up lean... I have a Onboard Temp gauge for my car so I used that on the boat to monitor that temp. My engine is running around the 250f which is good temp for car racing.

I guess I'll write that down since you're already mounting the tank.. that probably means you're close to starting the engine

Javier

Consider yourself LUCKY don't break-in or even running an engine for long out of the water with out a load on it. Sure way to blow up an engine. Even if you have it water cooled don't push your luck, the engine needs to be under a load (run IN the water). Trust me and everyone else will tell you the same thing.

PS I learned the hard way when I was first starting

 

[Jerry Wyss]

Javier, breaking your engine-in that way is probably why it runs so good now. I know Marty Davis

recommends running it rich and pulling off the water on a 3.5cc o/b engine for break-in.

Alota guy's on here thought he was nut's for saying that but I have done it myself with two

TT's and secured a very good P/S fit on both motors,, thats saying allot with a Thunder Tiger.

Marty said "look for the bright shiney ring in the chrome plating on the sleeve at the top of

the piston travel",, both engines have it.

JW

 

[BigRed]

Definetly a engine's best break in is with a load... and better if it's a steady load... That's why the break in benches have a kind of airplane prop that provides the load and at the same time cools the engine down....

The previous break in experiences I've had is all in .12 car engines and I do them on the car... My car has watever lightweight kind of thing you can think off like flywheel, shafts, cvds... There's not much load on it and the break ins come out good... Just stay away from high rpms... I usually start the engine rich for a while... then start pulling throtle and richen the needle at the same time till I have the thing full throtle till the richness of itkeeps the RPMs at mid-low range that way the thing is just spitting fuel out of the exhaust making sure it helps get rig of any metal particles comming out...... then close the needle a bit and continue gradually closing running the car/boat... Doing this I always got a good result... 0 compression loss Will check for that ring to see if mine has it

I figured it would be ok to do the same on the Thunder tiger since the flywheel felt kinda heavy.

Now unfortunatly about 2 runs ago I did do something very foolish and the compression is not the same but it's still tight... I was running the boat and it seemed to be running a little on the lean side so I brought the boat back and richen the needle about 1/8 of a turn... launched the boat again and the boat was'nt going anywhere... very slow so I held that thing full throtle to see if I got the temp to go up and be able to burn the fuel but after 3 min I gave up and brought the boat back... then taking the boat I always touch the engine to check temp and the thing was somewhere over 300f... when I checked instead of richening 1/8 I leaned 1/8.... Felt very dumb.... but oh well we all make mistakes The tiger is still runnind strong but that probably took some lifetime out of it Later this year I'll order Piston/Sleve/Rod to have there....

So... alway's make sure you turn the needle the right way <_<

So thomas.. is that TS2 ready to hit the water? How about the servos in the radio box? I remember I had a little complication with that... specially with the throtle servo... it was'nt giving me a long enough range to open and close the carb... linkage could not be made larger because it would hit the side off the radio box... but I got it after messing around with it for a while...

Javier

P.D. (man I got to stop getting carried away... I'm going to overload the forums server )

 

[Nitrolizer]

I don't have pics, but I mounted mine using the hook and loop material. I put the flat side down and the stopper oriented toward the stern and on the left side. The rear of the tank (not counting the stopper) ended up 83 mm from the surface where the engine mounts.

Ok cool, that info might prove useful. I havn't actually measured the placement of my tank yet, but I will compare your placement to mine, could be interesting

By the way, when you say "surface where the engine mounts", do you mean the side of the transom where the threaded inserts are and where the engine is mounted, or do you mean the opposite surface of the transom which is closer to the tank?

About the throttle well... the first time I assembled it it was like that and the cable does'nt hit anything there so I just left it like that... nothing in particular

Ok, I see... I was thinking that maybe you had any reason in particular to lead the pushrod over the tank, so I just thought I'd ask.

I know Marty Davis recommends running it rich and pulling off the water on a 3.5cc o/b engine for break-in.

JW

Does this apply to the OS o/b as well?

So thomas.. is that TS2 ready to hit the water? How about the servos in the radio box? I remember I had a little complication with that... specially with the throtle servo... it was'nt giving me a long enough range to open and close the carb... linkage could not be made larger because it would hit the side off the radio box... but I got it after messing around with it for a while...

Javier

P.D. (man I got to stop getting carried away... I'm going to overload the forums server )

It's not ready to hit the water just yet. I have just recently completed the last preperations on the radio box, which was to saw out a rectangular hole for the radio switch. I couldn't do that earlier since I hadn't the right tools for it. You need a very small sawblade, so I bought that yesterday.

I don't know if you can see on the little pic under my name ("Nitrolizer"), but there is no antenna mounted on that pic. Now I have mounted the antenna in the radiobox lid and drilled a hole for it on the top of the canopy. Now I have also mounted the tank with the FLAT side down. :lol:

So yeah, I guess there is not much work left now. The only things that are left are actually installing the radio gear into the box along with the pushrods, and mounting the engine itself on the transom.

The only problem is... I've run into a complication with my radio gear. Not a major problem, but I have to take an extra trip into town and visit my hobbyshop before I can do anything else.

This is what has happened:

When I bought my radio, I also bought a servo with extra torque for the steering. The steering servo I bought was a Blue Bird Technology (says "Heat Sink Blue" on the front of the package) BMS-660MG+HS. It has a torque of 12.6 kg (176 oz) at 4.8 volts and 14.2 kg (190 oz) at 6.0 volts. I figured that would be enough torque Also, the servo wasn't expensive, thinking of how much torque it has. And they said in the store that it would fit any Hitec receiver.

When I recently tried the radio gear out (I thought that it would be a good idea to try it out before installing it in the boat), I discovered a very strange behaviour....

The radio worked just fine with the two servos provided, without any problems at all. But when I removed one of the servos and connected the extra torque servo instead, it would not work properly. When I tried the throttle channel with the standard servo, it worked just fine. But here is the thing: When I tried out the steering channel, the extra torque servo moved just as it was supposed to... But the throttle servo also moved!!! :blink: :blink: :blink: It was twitching every time I moved the steering servo. Lets say I put the steering to the far left. Then I moved it very fast to the far right. In the end of the steering servo movement (not transmitter steering movement), the throttle servo would do a big twitch. It was doing a twitch every time in the end of a movement of the steering servo!! The steering servo, however, would not twitch when I moved the throttle servo (when I moved it on purpose, that is... ).

I guess there is some sort of incompability between the servo and the radio. I have never seen this problem on any radio before in my life. I got to get back to the store and bring the radio and the steering servo to show them the problem. That's why I can't install it in the boat yet. Hopefully I will get another brand of steering servo as a replacement which works better with the radio. Because as it is right now, it's totally unusable. I mean, imagine the RPM changing for halv a second every time you steer your boat... <_<

The radio is just a Hitec Ranger with sticks, so it's nothing fancy at all. But yet there shouldn't be problems like this. I wonder what causes it... :huh:

Maybe this was all a little off-topic since it's more about radios than the TS2 itself, but well Javier you wanted to know how my boat and radio installation is coming along and there you have it. :lol:

How did you solve your problem with the throttle servo?

Thanks to all for all the advice on running in the engine.

Thomas

 

[Nitrolizer]

Oh yeah, by the way... Putting on all the decals.. That was not a very easy thing to do. Especially the long ones going along the whole hull, it was very hard to get them straight just like I wanted. They were often off by just a few mm, so I had to peel them off again and redo it several times. And finally when I got one of them right I usally noticed a lot of airbubbles stuck between the hull and the decal. I thought I was going crazy for a while :angry:

But in the end I think I got it pretty okey anyway. But I had to spend a lot of hours just on the decals. What a lot of work just for such a thing. Jesus!... :huh:

 

[Jerry Wyss]

Oh yeah, by the way... Putting on all the decals.. That was not a very easy thing to do. Especially the long ones going along the whole hull, it was very hard to get them straight just like I wanted. They were often off by just a few mm, so I had to peel them off again and redo it several times. And finally when I got one of them right I usally noticed a lot of airbubbles stuck between the hull and the decal. I thought I was going crazy for a while :angry:

But in the end I think I got it pretty okey anyway. But I had to spend a lot of hours just on the decals. What a lot of work just for such a thing. Jesus!... :huh:

Nitrolizer, Next time you put on lettering and graphics put some liquid dishwashing soap in a bowl

of water (mix with finger tips), wet down the area with the solution with a small wash cloth, perdy

wet.

Peel the graphic backing off and run the piece thru the solution,, and lay it up where it goes.

You should be able to slide the graphic around easy and get it just where you want it.

Use a dry cloth hand towel or wash cloth to wipe the solution off holding down one end of the

graphic an wiping to the other.

Keep holding and patting with the dry cloth and working out the solution,, in a very few minutes

the sticker will hold just as good as the other method.

I can do a 60 size hydro in a half an hour with many graphics and backed lettering sets.

Doing this kind of job "dry" can be frustrating to the MAX! as you found out.

As far as pulling water off a new O.S.XM nickle sleeve for break-in?, I don't know for sure.

I know the "water off" method allows the engine to expand easily to where you not scrubbing

the piston against a cold contracted sleeve all the time.

And when it does finally heat-up some time later the fit may not be as good. I have heard that

aircooled engines break-in better than water cooled to the point where all parts aren't expanded

to they're running temp with too much water.

Most all of the existing 3.5 O/B's run too cool with full water running thru them, otherwise Nobody,would be cutting down the water or going to aircooled heads, yeah?

 

[BigRed]

Oh yeah, by the way... Putting on all the decals.. That was not a very easy thing to do. Especially the long ones going along the whole hull, it was very hard to get them straight just like I wanted. They were often off by just a few mm, so I had to peel them off again and redo it several times. And finally when I got one of them right I usally noticed a lot of airbubbles stuck between the hull and the decal. I thought I was going crazy for a while :angry:

But in the end I think I got it pretty okey anyway. But I had to spend a lot of hours just on the decals. What a lot of work just for such a thing. Jesus!... :huh:

MAN! laying down those decals dry is a awfull task well you know now about the soapy water... It's like laying down window tint on a car .... what I do after laying down the decal wet and slided it to position I get a hair dryer to get it to stick faster while working the liquid and bubbles out of it... just got to be carefull not to melt de decal... I know I tried to do the windshield dry and as soon as I tried sticking the first corner I knew I was going to mess it up so I got the soap right away... Good thing you did not mess up the decals....

Jerry... that's right Breaking in a engine too far away from operating temperature is bad... if the whole break in is done way too cold once you bring the engine up to operating temperature the sleve expands and you loose all the compression... I've seen some engines broken in without knowing that and once you get the thing up in the 250f stop the engine and hand turned the flywheel the thing felt very loose... Sometimes you do the break in very cold and for a long time... some engines will need more fuel ran through before they are ready... some just with a couple of tanks will be all set.....

Javier

Javier

 

[Nitrolizer]

Darn it! I should have asked about the decals before I put them on <_< Oh well, at least now I know. It sounds like a great method you told me about, I've got to try that next time!

Well, actually I DID mess up some of the decals but only for a very little bit, I accidently tore them up in some places. But when on the boat, you can hardly see which ones who got damaged. I figure that there is no point in order extra decals as a spare-part, just to redo the damaged ones. It will probably take a while for a person to find the damaged ones who don't know where they are. The worst one just looks like a little scratch on the decal now when it's on the boat. Since the damage isn't even on the hull and I know I COULD order new decals anytime I want, it's not big deal for me

I would have taken a pic of the most damaged one and showed you if I only had a digital camera... The webcam probably won't provide a quality good enough that will make you see the "scratch".

About breaking in....

So if I understand all of this correctly, then there is a big chance the engine would actually get a better break-in if I find a way of reducing the amount of water going into the cooling head?

I can understand you don't need so much water cooling when breaking in and running it rich, because the oil in the fuel also cools the engine, doesn't it?

Do you really think I could try to remove the water cooling completely while breaking in and instead run it rich like crazy? And then connect the water cooling again when starting to lean it a little?

 

[Ronald van Essen]

Thomas

Maybe its a good idea to restrict the water ccoling by putting in a small bras tube, to make the hole a little smaller. But then again, the water in your country is probably cold, so you can try and take away the water cooling, feel the cooling head after a few laps.

Ronald.