Jerry Wyss
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TS2 kibbles and bits
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BigRed
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hehhee well that sounds very good Jerry... All the videos are running 30% car fuel with the prather 215... there's only one with the X640 which is the one that kinda blew over.... I'm still working to get the X640 working... I get good straight speed but problems turning... even after sinking the drivedog at the buttom sponson level...
It's bouncing so bad now that I even lost a stumble block.. boat is doing barrell rolls all kinda interesting stuff for my brother to watch... At least he's getting a kick out of it
Thomas... I did do slight sanding on both the old and new hull. I ran the old one unsanded and after sanding it runns were alot smoother... on the new hull I sanded it even before it hit the water...
Javier.
It's bouncing so bad now that I even lost a stumble block.. boat is doing barrell rolls all kinda interesting stuff for my brother to watch... At least he's getting a kick out of it
Thomas... I did do slight sanding on both the old and new hull. I ran the old one unsanded and after sanding it runns were alot smoother... on the new hull I sanded it even before it hit the water...
Javier.
Jerry Wyss
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Well, the bouncing has to stop somehow, there is a way to solve that problem.
There is a chronic failure with some novices to put balance lead on the boat,,
I know, I have heard it many times and I have been guilty of it myself.
There are many that have figured out the set-up with that boat,,
some in Australia have got it down good.
The boat rolling over while turning is telling me the bow is to high in the turn :blink:
obviously, the boat bouncing "all the time" is going to have the bow high at some point
in the turn, but, the bow should come down a little when you start to turn.
That's not a secret but it is how tunnels turn.
I learned this back when they made the last 1/4 scale plastic o/b tunnels, DPI,
I think they were called.
Those things didn't like to turn like we need them to turn racing an oval course,,
they sort of "chopped" their way around the corners and required allot of throttling
to do it.
I solved it by putting what's called "rocker" in the sponson running surface.
Now, It would be a great help to me if you could get on line and try to find
some info on tunnel boat or boat design that describes "rocker",,
you'll find that there is another term used called "hook"(hook ain't good for tunnels,
unless it's an off-shore cat or any cat)
It seems that some of the 30" boats have, or can have long flat sections going
from the rear to the front,, this can be bad as it doesn't allow "progressive" contact
with the water as the bow comes down to make the turn.
You want to make a slight turn, the water contacts the sponson a little forward of
where it is in the straight, the tighter you want the turn the more forward the water
should contact the sponsons.
With a long flat section, you go to turn and Slam! You have most of the length of the
sponson in the water and the engine cocked one way and the boats going hard the other,
it can get perdy ugly,, allota hooking and rolling.
Some other designs used a different arrangement on the running surface, the LeeCraft
is a good example, they, in my observation would scare the hell outa someone that
didn't like putting lead in the boat.
Most that were 7.5 contenders were a balance of lead and thrust angle in the motor to
suite they'er owners driving style and power of the engine.
There is a chronic failure with some novices to put balance lead on the boat,,
I know, I have heard it many times and I have been guilty of it myself.
There are many that have figured out the set-up with that boat,,
some in Australia have got it down good.
The boat rolling over while turning is telling me the bow is to high in the turn :blink:
obviously, the boat bouncing "all the time" is going to have the bow high at some point
in the turn, but, the bow should come down a little when you start to turn.
That's not a secret but it is how tunnels turn.
I learned this back when they made the last 1/4 scale plastic o/b tunnels, DPI,
I think they were called.
Those things didn't like to turn like we need them to turn racing an oval course,,
they sort of "chopped" their way around the corners and required allot of throttling
to do it.
I solved it by putting what's called "rocker" in the sponson running surface.
Now, It would be a great help to me if you could get on line and try to find
some info on tunnel boat or boat design that describes "rocker",,
you'll find that there is another term used called "hook"(hook ain't good for tunnels,
unless it's an off-shore cat or any cat)
It seems that some of the 30" boats have, or can have long flat sections going
from the rear to the front,, this can be bad as it doesn't allow "progressive" contact
with the water as the bow comes down to make the turn.
You want to make a slight turn, the water contacts the sponson a little forward of
where it is in the straight, the tighter you want the turn the more forward the water
should contact the sponsons.
With a long flat section, you go to turn and Slam! You have most of the length of the
sponson in the water and the engine cocked one way and the boats going hard the other,
it can get perdy ugly,, allota hooking and rolling.
Some other designs used a different arrangement on the running surface, the LeeCraft
is a good example, they, in my observation would scare the hell outa someone that
didn't like putting lead in the boat.
Most that were 7.5 contenders were a balance of lead and thrust angle in the motor to
suite they'er owners driving style and power of the engine.
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BigRed
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Yep the bouncing definetly has to stop... the wierd thing is that it was almost perfect and then after sitting for about 10 days it went really bad... the separation at the transom came back and I'm thinking that has something to do with it.. maybe the hull twisted some but when I checked it the sponsons seem aligned and in good shape... What I do notice is that the bottom of the transom has a lump pointing down as if something swell inside causing the separation on the transom... maybe this lump is causing some water to build up and start that aufull bounce. I know that right before sending the first hull it had this lump too but did'nt seem to affect it... anyway..
when I was running the other day I noticed that the bounce would stop whenever the back part of the sponsons would start lifting a spray of water to the sides... The end of the sponsons were not sharp at all so I worked on that today... for the turning part once the boat was going fast in the straight it would be fine... and would stay fine for the first half of a turn then it would either bounce up like it hit a wave or start this minor fishtailing like if the sponson grabbed into the corner and letted go over and over...
Let's see what happens tomorrow... will run it weather permiting...
I gout one question... what do you use to paint the bottom of a hull? any particular preference with less drag? or better results overall?
Javier
when I was running the other day I noticed that the bounce would stop whenever the back part of the sponsons would start lifting a spray of water to the sides... The end of the sponsons were not sharp at all so I worked on that today... for the turning part once the boat was going fast in the straight it would be fine... and would stay fine for the first half of a turn then it would either bounce up like it hit a wave or start this minor fishtailing like if the sponson grabbed into the corner and letted go over and over...
Let's see what happens tomorrow... will run it weather permiting...
I gout one question... what do you use to paint the bottom of a hull? any particular preference with less drag? or better results overall?
Javier
Jerry Wyss
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Don't paint'em at all is what most do,, nuthin' shiney down there,, this is not a car show.
On the running surface, nuthin' shiney.
On the running surface, nuthin' shiney.
Jerry Wyss
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Yeah, run it that way, whats it going to hurt? These boats have a perdy short lifespan
as you have found out.
It's recomended for the Lynx that you BLOCK sand the gel-coat and DON"T paint it,,,
from time to time, when needed, only running surface, specific method.
Over
Also: In your vid "TS2 Rollover", I can tell your a "car guy" hahaha ,,tight turns like that
are just sooo uncivilized don't ya think? :lol:
Try a "right hand" oval course and perfect that.
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BigRed
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Yep... I'm definetly a car guy working on becoming a boat guy also Yeah I remember that was still at the beginning.. I was pushing the boat just to see how much could it handle... just exploring the limits...
Well it's raining down here...
Have been spending some time on the car since I'' be flying back to panama in a couple of weeks and there is a race as soon as I get there...
A little off topic but here's a vid I took of it... I'm running a .12 Novarossi N12LS5 on it...
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=26...412764615&hl=en
Javier Brandao
Yeah I remember that was still at the beginning.. I was pushing the boat just to see how much could it handle... just exploring the limits...Well it's raining down here...
Have been spending some time on the car since I'' be flying back to panama in a couple of weeks and there is a race as soon as I get there...
A little off topic but here's a vid I took of it... I'm running a .12 Novarossi N12LS5 on it...
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=26...412764615&hl=en
Javier Brandao
Jerry Wyss
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:lol: :lol: Gawd, I Laughed my ass off watchin' that Car :lol: ,, I've been away from them things
for a while,, That Thing Hauls! Very Impressive Javier,, and you can drive Too! Wow, That's Cool.
I also watched the "X640 Blow Over" vid, That muffled boat is impressive too,, just think, If
Thunder Tiger wold just improve they're product just a little they could be competitive in
stock class racing. Did you open up the exhaust outlet a little on the TT muffler?
Good Running machines you have, it's fun to watch'em go
JW
for a while,, That Thing Hauls! Very Impressive Javier,, and you can drive Too! Wow, That's Cool.
I also watched the "X640 Blow Over" vid, That muffled boat is impressive too,, just think, If
Thunder Tiger wold just improve they're product just a little they could be competitive in
stock class racing. Did you open up the exhaust outlet a little on the TT muffler?
Good Running machines you have, it's fun to watch'em go
JW
BigRed
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Thanks Jerry... Yes I do have lot's of fun running them... IN panama there's about 5 of us RC drivers that are very even... After finishing a Heat or main I'll have to confess my legs shake a bit from the adrenaline I get...
About the muffler on the TT I did not open the outlet... what I did do but I'm not sure if it had any effect was slightly polishing the inside of the muffler... I did this when I was first polishing the lower and at the time it was not running very fast... IT's not a shiny polish but just enough to make it smooth...
I really don't know how fast the OS or K&B are in stock configuration but if TT would just lower the Head Bottom clearance a bit it would be alot better... Plus this is only running 30% and very reliable.. Hav'nt had the thing shut off at all... well only once that I had the Idle to low but that was my fault
Javier
About the muffler on the TT I did not open the outlet... what I did do but I'm not sure if it had any effect was slightly polishing the inside of the muffler... I did this when I was first polishing the lower and at the time it was not running very fast... IT's not a shiny polish but just enough to make it smooth...
I really don't know how fast the OS or K&B are in stock configuration but if TT would just lower the Head Bottom clearance a bit it would be alot better... Plus this is only running 30% and very reliable.. Hav'nt had the thing shut off at all... well only once that I had the Idle to low but that was my fault
Javier
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BigRed
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Well after doing all the filling, sanding and sharpening of edges I was able to run the TS2 today. It did perform a bit better but still was far from acceptable... counter clockwise oval was so so... clockwise oval was impossible... I'm also experiencing a gentle bounce at full speed straights.. tried deepening the prop and bounce persisted... so I put it back up to get the RPMS again and then I took all the weight off the nose.. again getting better results...
Another thing I have noticed now is that the water has been very calm this last couple of times I have ran the boat... Most of my best runs were with partially choppy water conditions.. Choppy enough that when the boat went by you could hear the bottom just tapping the top of the ripples on the water... Maybe my problem is just a series of things that happened at the same time... lump on the buttom and water is very calm now but at least I'm able to run counter clockwise
I also downgraded to 20% nitro... I ran out of 30% and I got some 20% left from the car... It's doing ok... just sagging a bit on the turns.. I'm going to reinspect the boat now to see if I find anything making it bounce when turning right... What I do know is that since day one on both hulls I always got better results turning left.. maybe due to the prop wash...
I'll try to find a windy day to test that way the water is choppy again and see.... hehehe that's different huh?
Javier.
Another thing I have noticed now is that the water has been very calm this last couple of times I have ran the boat... Most of my best runs were with partially choppy water conditions.. Choppy enough that when the boat went by you could hear the bottom just tapping the top of the ripples on the water... Maybe my problem is just a series of things that happened at the same time... lump on the buttom and water is very calm now but at least I'm able to run counter clockwise
I also downgraded to 20% nitro... I ran out of 30% and I got some 20% left from the car... It's doing ok... just sagging a bit on the turns.. I'm going to reinspect the boat now to see if I find anything making it bounce when turning right... What I do know is that since day one on both hulls I always got better results turning left.. maybe due to the prop wash...
I'll try to find a windy day to test that way the water is choppy again and see.... hehehe that's different huh?
Javier.
Jerry Wyss
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Hi Javier, Is your motor vertical as viewed from the rear? Could be that the "drop" of
the sponsons are unequal,, this is not the end of the world ,, you have to shim-up
the left sponson on the Lynx before you lay-out for the bolt pattern for the vertical
motor alignment.
Some fiberglass boats are really outa whack in this area (the Lynx is not one of them) and
it can be hard to find a good point to measure from,, from side to side or anywhere.
Case in point, a badly built 30" WOF,, where are you to measure from if things aren't
built square (or in alignment) to begin with? It can also get tough if you change
(considerably) the whole profile of the sponsons altogether unless you draw some
accurate reference lines before you start.
That may be something to do, make a horizontal line across the rear and square the
center line and see how it measures out. Also, push down on the front of the boat
(progressively)and keep an eye on how far the horizontal line goes out of level.
Calm water can be a problem with an underpowered boat, especially a longer boat
for the power of the engine. Usually, if a boat tend's to porpoise, it will really do
it on glass water,, on the other side a slight breeze ripple will make'r lay right down,
most of the time. It breaks some of the adhesion the water has on the running
surface, and I think it gets more air under the boat, actually making it higher from
the water,, that's just a theory with me.
The TS2 has those length wise "strakes" (i think they're called) to give you lift I
would think,, maybe they're not far enough toward the inside of the sponson.
I know "Slideblues" has them more toward the middle of the running surface on his
project WOF.
Just a thought
JW
the sponsons are unequal,, this is not the end of the world ,, you have to shim-up
the left sponson on the Lynx before you lay-out for the bolt pattern for the vertical
motor alignment.
Some fiberglass boats are really outa whack in this area (the Lynx is not one of them) and
it can be hard to find a good point to measure from,, from side to side or anywhere.
Case in point, a badly built 30" WOF,, where are you to measure from if things aren't
built square (or in alignment) to begin with? It can also get tough if you change
(considerably) the whole profile of the sponsons altogether unless you draw some
accurate reference lines before you start.
That may be something to do, make a horizontal line across the rear and square the
center line and see how it measures out. Also, push down on the front of the boat
(progressively)and keep an eye on how far the horizontal line goes out of level.
Calm water can be a problem with an underpowered boat, especially a longer boat
for the power of the engine. Usually, if a boat tend's to porpoise, it will really do
it on glass water,, on the other side a slight breeze ripple will make'r lay right down,
most of the time. It breaks some of the adhesion the water has on the running
surface, and I think it gets more air under the boat, actually making it higher from
the water,, that's just a theory with me.
The TS2 has those length wise "strakes" (i think they're called) to give you lift I
would think,, maybe they're not far enough toward the inside of the sponson.
I know "Slideblues" has them more toward the middle of the running surface on his
project WOF.
Just a thought
JW
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BigRed
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I belive the calm water is making the little details show up now....
I sat down and rechecked the boat a little closely and found 1 thing...
The inside edge of the sponsons are not parallel to each other.
It is wider near the transom and will close in 1/10 of a inch every 10 inches so there is 3/10 of a inch difference in the spacing between the front and the back.... Honest truth I don't know if it's normal but my guess would be no what do you guys think? Could that be causing the symptoms I'm having?
Javier
I sat down and rechecked the boat a little closely and found 1 thing...
The inside edge of the sponsons are not parallel to each other.
It is wider near the transom and will close in 1/10 of a inch every 10 inches so there is 3/10 of a inch difference in the spacing between the front and the back.... Honest truth I don't know if it's normal but my guess would be no what do you guys think? Could that be causing the symptoms I'm having?
Javier
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BigRed
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Everything got kind of quiet... well here are 2 videos first one the day the bounce started... 2nd one after I did all the sanding, bondo and sharpening off edges...
Video when the bounce started...
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1...052140563&hl=en
Here's a bit better after work was done and no weight on the nose at all.
At the end of this video the boat spun out... if you watch carefully I started to slowly turn so that the nose would go down and bite a bit of water but it just wanted to keep on going straight... so I just backed off the gass all the way and it hooked... I guess it was better than hitting one of those logs there hehehe.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-9...641216511&hl=en
Javier
Video when the bounce started...
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1...052140563&hl=en
Here's a bit better after work was done and no weight on the nose at all.
At the end of this video the boat spun out... if you watch carefully I started to slowly turn so that the nose would go down and bite a bit of water but it just wanted to keep on going straight... so I just backed off the gass all the way and it hooked... I guess it was better than hitting one of those logs there hehehe.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-9...641216511&hl=en
Javier
Jerry Wyss
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Hahahaha,, I'm kinda embarrassed that I haven't got a muffled TT to go that well :blink:
Certainly is dramatic difference between the first run and the second,, I think it would be
quite impressive if you could hold full throttle all the way around. Thats the way we all try
to set'em up for, I have a couple that do it,, mod TT's on a Lynx and mod LeeCraft XTR.
My front line TT (before I melted it) on the Lynx, you had to watch it entering the corner
after it double staged the pipe,, if it just "yawed" into the corner it was coming off Big
Time :lol: :lol: and there was not much you could do other than Watch, hahaha
These boats can be very frustrating , but also can be very rewarding when you find the fix.
Ya know, If it always ran perfect, it would be boring! Yeah?
Certainly is dramatic difference between the first run and the second,, I think it would be
quite impressive if you could hold full throttle all the way around. Thats the way we all try
to set'em up for, I have a couple that do it,, mod TT's on a Lynx and mod LeeCraft XTR.
My front line TT (before I melted it) on the Lynx, you had to watch it entering the corner
after it double staged the pipe,, if it just "yawed" into the corner it was coming off Big
Time :lol: :lol: and there was not much you could do other than Watch, hahaha
These boats can be very frustrating , but also can be very rewarding when you find the fix.
Ya know, If it always ran perfect, it would be boring! Yeah?
Nitrolizer
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I have the TS2 yellow hull. Are you saying that the yellow finish on the boat is causing a lot of drag?
So the white hull actually have less drag than the red, yellow and orange ones? :blink:Javier...
Ouch! All that boucing... Not a pretty sight. Good thing you got it to run much better after some work was done. Do you have any idea why it just started bouncing like that all of a sudden? It just seems so strange... A boat don't just start bouncing like that by itself, with no adjustments made. Because I mean, it didn't bounce like that at all on your previous vids... :huh:
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Jerry Wyss
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I have the TS2 yellow hull. Are you saying that the yellow finish on the boat is causing a lot of drag?
Nitrolizer,
It doesn't have anything to do with the color, it's called "blueprinting",, similar to what
some full size car engine builders do,, try to bring the product into specs that the designer intended.
Not every copy of fiberglass boats are equal even if they come off the same mould.
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BigRed
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I'm not 100% sure what has caused the bouncing... The 2 variables I've noticed are that now the water is very calm.. before was choppy... 2nd there's a section on the transom that separated creating a lump on the bottom of the boat... I'm afraid that might of taken the back part of the sponsons out of alignment... I had my boat replaced due to this separation once before but on the first boat it did'nt seem to affect handling...
So I'm thinking that there was a problem before but the choppy water helped since the boat would just kinda tap the top of the little waves... It's a very bad feeling to have the boat running that well and then just go so bad... well the only thing I can do is Fix it right? so I just took that boat and sanded the strakes off... flattened the sponsons, covered the fiberglass I went thru...... maybe in another 3 day's I can tell you if it's any better or if it just went completely bad...
I figured I've noticed many people have had problems with bounce at least a little... even if you go to the aquacreft website and watch their TS2 video you can see that they bounce just a bit... very experienced boaters have had them work perfect after working the bugs out... So I'm taking a shot at it to see if I get some beginner's luck :lol:
Javier
So I'm thinking that there was a problem before but the choppy water helped since the boat would just kinda tap the top of the little waves... It's a very bad feeling to have the boat running that well and then just go so bad... well the only thing I can do is Fix it right? so I just took that boat and sanded the strakes off... flattened the sponsons, covered the fiberglass I went thru...... maybe in another 3 day's I can tell you if it's any better or if it just went completely bad...
I figured I've noticed many people have had problems with bounce at least a little... even if you go to the aquacreft website and watch their TS2 video you can see that they bounce just a bit... very experienced boaters have had them work perfect after working the bugs out... So I'm taking a shot at it to see if I get some beginner's luck :lol:
Javier
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Nitrolizer
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Jerry Wyss,
Maybe I should have been more clear in my question.
I was more thinking that maybe the white hull doesn't have any paint, because fiberglass is white anyway, isn't it? And no paint on the entire boat would be the same as a boat that has paint, but the paint has been sanded off underneith the sponsons... right?
Or maybe the white hull also is painted in the same way as the others?
Javier,
I followed your link to the other thread about sanding the hull. I took a look at the pictures posted there describing this procedure. But as of what I could see after taking a look on my TS2, the back on the left and right sponsons are as near perfectly flat as they could get. And the tiny little changes I could see (which were slim to nothing) would differ depending on what kind of surface I tried it on. So it seems my TS2 has aligned sponsons without any further work having to be done. Lucky me.
I am definitely NOT going to sand the sponsons on my TS2 before I have tried running it. And since I have never done this before, I'm afraid it would just do more harm than good if I would attempt it... :unsure:
Yes, I too have noticed on the AquaCraft video that it bounces on lower speeds. I am not gonna try to make my TS2 100% bounceless on all speeds, because that would just drive me crazy. Besides, I don't have either the guts nor the knowledge to try anything like that on my boat.
Beginners luck? I thought you have sanded boats like that before? But I hope you have some luck with this one, it would be pretty cool if you got it just right. If you do, please tell me more of how you did it
Thomas
Maybe I should have been more clear in my question.
I was more thinking that maybe the white hull doesn't have any paint, because fiberglass is white anyway, isn't it? And no paint on the entire boat would be the same as a boat that has paint, but the paint has been sanded off underneith the sponsons... right?
Or maybe the white hull also is painted in the same way as the others?
Javier,
I followed your link to the other thread about sanding the hull. I took a look at the pictures posted there describing this procedure. But as of what I could see after taking a look on my TS2, the back on the left and right sponsons are as near perfectly flat as they could get. And the tiny little changes I could see (which were slim to nothing) would differ depending on what kind of surface I tried it on. So it seems my TS2 has aligned sponsons without any further work having to be done. Lucky me.
I am definitely NOT going to sand the sponsons on my TS2 before I have tried running it. And since I have never done this before, I'm afraid it would just do more harm than good if I would attempt it... :unsure:
Yes, I too have noticed on the AquaCraft video that it bounces on lower speeds. I am not gonna try to make my TS2 100% bounceless on all speeds, because that would just drive me crazy. Besides, I don't have either the guts nor the knowledge to try anything like that on my boat.
Beginners luck? I thought you have sanded boats like that before?
But I hope you have some luck with this one, it would be pretty cool if you got it just right. If you do, please tell me more of how you did it Thomas
BigRed
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Well I went ahead and tested the boat this afternoon and the results were better but still not perfect... I believe I'm on the right track since I hav'nt finished working on the bottom... just wanted to check out how it behaved the way I had it...
Right now the boat has no strake around the last 10 inches.. I'll post some pics later tonight... Bounce is almost gone... still have a little wiggle on the turns and I believe I can cure that tilting the engine... it may not be straight... before since the bounce was so bad I could hardly see a difference...
There was a BIG difference on the ride attitude of the boat without the strakes... the boat is almost flat on the straights but it's still riding just on the last 3/4 of an inch of the sponsons... The thing is so flat that one time while I was going against the wind it looked like it was going to blow over but instead it kinda smoothly took off the water.. the whole hull was a good 3 inches out of the water between 1 - 2 sec and then it leaned to a side went down and kept on going Before this would of been a sure blow over flip Straight speed is ok but seems to drag some on the turns... maybe from too much water contact... maybe the 20% and this is with about 4oz on the nose... weight on the nose before would of been fatal.
Not sure if I want to put the strakes back now... Unfortunatly could not get a video of it... my brother was doing homework Here are the pics of the madness I did on the bottom of the boat...
Javier
Right now the boat has no strake around the last 10 inches.. I'll post some pics later tonight... Bounce is almost gone... still have a little wiggle on the turns and I believe I can cure that tilting the engine... it may not be straight... before since the bounce was so bad I could hardly see a difference...
There was a BIG difference on the ride attitude of the boat without the strakes... the boat is almost flat on the straights but it's still riding just on the last 3/4 of an inch of the sponsons... The thing is so flat that one time while I was going against the wind it looked like it was going to blow over but instead it kinda smoothly took off the water.. the whole hull was a good 3 inches out of the water between 1 - 2 sec and then it leaned to a side went down and kept on going
Before this would of been a sure blow over flip Straight speed is ok but seems to drag some on the turns... maybe from too much water contact... maybe the 20% and this is with about 4oz on the nose... weight on the nose before would of been fatal.Not sure if I want to put the strakes back now... Unfortunatly could not get a video of it... my brother was doing homework
Here are the pics of the madness I did on the bottom of the boat...Javier
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