The 25th Indy Masters

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If kudos need to go anywhere, my wife, daughter and son need them, as except for last year when the Cinci club stepped up and hosted the race, Stu and I would not be able to host the race to the level we do. There is so much behind the scenes work that goes into putting on a race that those who have not experienced it have no idea. But when it's all over and the majority of attendees are happy it makes it all worth while.
 
Bruce,

I will be there with bells on my shoes and mufflers on my pipes.....

Thanks. Brad.

Titan Racing Components

BlackJack Hydros
 
Bruce,
I will be there with bells on my shoes and mufflers on my pipes.....

Thanks. Brad.

Titan Racing Components

BlackJack Hydros
The Indy folks put a fine race on. I wil attend and i will bring quiet boats. Nice to see it in Indy,Cincy also did a fine job. THA MASTERS LIVES Mike
 
The proposal that I made to the board in November took care of all of the variables. By moving the meter back to 50' and running muffling devices will stop all of these problems. Also in the proposal it had a way of watching over the racers if a problem did come up with a louder boat without the need to sent anyone home or take away points. And this is the kind of rule that is needed to take IMPBA thru this noise thing. The proposal that I wrote will stand the test of time and allow racers to get even lower as time moves on. And this will happen without anyone knowing it is happening. It was assame that the board chose to table it.

But I am with Bruce on this one and will support this race because I know that it will be done the way he says and that all of the boats that will be there will be under the dB number. Also if there happens to be a boat that is a little loud that everyone will work to make it comply without sending anyone home. And this is the way it should be. I have said many times that the present course on this noise problem will bite us on the as- and it has.

Who knows this race may be bigger than the Internats.

Mark
 
The proposal that I made to the board in November took care of all of the variables. By moving the meter back to 50' and running muffling devices will stop all of these problems.
So...your still mandating a "muffling device".

-Buck-
 
The proposal that I made to the board in November took care of all of the variables. By moving the meter back to 50' and running muffling devices will stop all of these problems.
So...your still mandating a "muffling device".

-Buck-
Why of course. You can not measure with a dB meter and to think that you can is just to be fooling yourself. This type of measurment can not be done outside. And the manufactures state that in there paperwork. Why, because there will always be a variable. And it is not the meter that is doing it but the ambient noise, barometric pressure, or wind that changes from day to day. You may read one reading on one day and another reading the next day. The ansi standard is +/- 2 dB for a meter. But I would say that outdoors it would have to be +/- 5 to 10 dB. So this is why I say that all boats must use muffling devices. And this makes it fair for everyone.

Mark
 
The proposal that I made to the board in November took care of all of the variables. By moving the meter back to 50' and running muffling devices will stop all of these problems.
So...your still mandating a "muffling device".

-Buck-
Why of course. You can not measure with a dB meter and to think that you can is just to be fooling yourself. This type of measurment can not be done outside. And the manufactures state that in there paperwork. Why, because there will always be a variable. And it is not the meter that is doing it but the ambient noise, barometric pressure, or wind that changes from day to day. You may read one reading on one day and another reading the next day. The ansi standard is +/- 2 dB for a meter. But I would say that outdoors it would have to be +/- 5 to 10 dB. So this is why I say that all boats must use muffling devices. And this makes it fair for everyone.

Mark
:blink: What? :blink:

You can't measure dB with a dB meter? Well then what the hell do you measure with it? The sound of your gums flapping?

So if a boat running a non-muffing device equipped exhaust that is below the gum flapping sound measuring device of 92 dB you will still DQ, give a warning, take away points, make the driver wear a funny hat, or what ever else can you come up with due to no "muffling device"? Then all I can say is ---- ---! Who are you or anyone else to tell me what I can or cannot run on my boat? So long as it fits the hull specs, engine displacement specs, safety requirements, and a dB limit, who should give a rat’s ass what I'm using for an exhaust? Next thing you'll come up with is a speed limit "just to make it fair for everyone”?

Outlandish!!!

-Buck-
 
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The proposal that I made to the board in November took care of all of the variables. By moving the meter back to 50' and running muffling devices will stop all of these problems.
So...your still mandating a "muffling device".

-Buck-
Why of course. You can not measure with a dB meter and to think that you can is just to be fooling yourself. This type of measurment can not be done outside. And the manufactures state that in there paperwork. Why, because there will always be a variable. And it is not the meter that is doing it but the ambient noise, barometric pressure, or wind that changes from day to day. You may read one reading on one day and another reading the next day. The ansi standard is +/- 2 dB for a meter. But I would say that outdoors it would have to be +/- 5 to 10 dB. So this is why I say that all boats must use muffling devices. And this makes it fair for everyone.

Mark
:blink: What? :blink:

You can't measure dB with a dB meter? Well then what the hell do you measure with it? The sound of your gums flapping?

So if a boat running a non-muffing device equipped exhaust that is below the gum flapping sound measuring device of 92 dB you will still DQ, give a warning, take away points, make the driver wear a funny hat, or what ever else can you come up with due to no "muffling device"? Then all I can say is F*#K You! Who are you or anyone else to tell me what I can or cannot run on my boat? So long as it fits the hull specs, engine displacement specs, safety requirements, and a dB limit, who should give a rat’s ass what I'm using for an exhaust? Next thing you'll come up with is a speed limit "just to make it fair for everyone”?

Outlandish!!!

-Buck-
d/b outdoors??? http://www.quest-technologies.com/Sound/Ad...lx_pdfs/OMS.pdf read on
 
The proposal that I made to the board in November took care of all of the variables. By moving the meter back to 50' and running muffling devices will stop all of these problems.
So...your still mandating a "muffling device".

-Buck-
Why of course. You can not measure with a dB meter and to think that you can is just to be fooling yourself. This type of measurment can not be done outside. And the manufactures state that in there paperwork. Why, because there will always be a variable. And it is not the meter that is doing it but the ambient noise, barometric pressure, or wind that changes from day to day. You may read one reading on one day and another reading the next day. The ansi standard is +/- 2 dB for a meter. But I would say that outdoors it would have to be +/- 5 to 10 dB. So this is why I say that all boats must use muffling devices. And this makes it fair for everyone.

Mark
:blink: What? :blink:

You can't measure dB with a dB meter? Well then what the hell do you measure with it? The sound of your gums flapping?

So if a boat running a non-muffing device equipped exhaust that is below the gum flapping sound measuring device of 92 dB you will still DQ, give a warning, take away points, make the driver wear a funny hat, or what ever else can you come up with due to no "muffling device"? Then all I can say is F*#K You! Who are you or anyone else to tell me what I can or cannot run on my boat? So long as it fits the hull specs, engine displacement specs, safety requirements, and a dB limit, who should give a rat’s ass what I'm using for an exhaust? Next thing you'll come up with is a speed limit "just to make it fair for everyone”?

Outlandish!!!

-Buck-
Looks like it may be time for Tom to step-in and remind you about the language and the fact that some young people may be reading this and this content is offensive to them. I'm sure you can discuss the muffler issue in a more professional tone and still get your point across
 
Not that i am one for controversy LOL!

But, i have seen with my own two eyes as well as people from the past internats tell me to my face that the surroundings play a huge huge affect on d.b.'s and how they read. That is excluding very changes like wind and the direction of it.

So until they can come up with a FAIR way to measure at every lake that is CONSITANT I don't buy into the rule.

I don't make up what stuff i use and tell someone different, and when i left from my home lake my boat was legal, when i got to evansville it wasn't.. or marginal. I changed nothing. So how do you control that?

I feel if you have to use a cinderblock on your pipe to quiet it down then use it.. If you don't need anything then that is even better.

Just my thoughts.

chris
 
I feel if you have to use a cinderblock on your pipe to quiet it down then use it.. If you don't need anything then that is even better.
Do what it takes like Chris says. As for the aforementioned post stating "this type of measurment can not be done outside" is simply not true. If it was then we can assume NASCAR, NHRA, SCCA, IMSA, AMA, OSHA, ANSI and others don't know what they are doing right? Do we have issues with the current IMPBA rule? Yes we certainly do but we are all over it contrary to what some have implied. Over the last few days I have come into some really good information that I am looking into on how to make the inexpensive meters much more directional which I believe is a huge part of our problem. So everyone take a DEEP BREATH and chill out for a spell. Let's vent on something else for now like how badly the big oil companies are screwing us or how much you don't like Hlllary. :lol: :lol: :lol:
 
I take " how much the big oil company's are screwing us " for $500.00 please. LOL!!!

chris
 
The proposal that I made to the board in November took care of all of the variables. By moving the meter back to 50' and running muffling devices will stop all of these problems.
So...your still mandating a "muffling device".

-Buck-
Why of course. You can not measure with a dB meter and to think that you can is just to be fooling yourself. This type of measurment can not be done outside. And the manufactures state that in there paperwork. Why, because there will always be a variable. And it is not the meter that is doing it but the ambient noise, barometric pressure, or wind that changes from day to day. You may read one reading on one day and another reading the next day. The ansi standard is +/- 2 dB for a meter. But I would say that outdoors it would have to be +/- 5 to 10 dB. So this is why I say that all boats must use muffling devices. And this makes it fair for everyone.

Mark
:blink: What? :blink:

You can't measure dB with a dB meter? Well then what the hell do you measure with it? The sound of your gums flapping?

So if a boat running a non-muffing device equipped exhaust that is below the gum flapping sound measuring device of 92 dB you will still DQ, give a warning, take away points, make the driver wear a funny hat, or what ever else can you come up with due to no "muffling device"? Then all I can say is F*#K You! Who are you or anyone else to tell me what I can or cannot run on my boat? So long as it fits the hull specs, engine displacement specs, safety requirements, and a dB limit, who should give a rat’s ass what I'm using for an exhaust? Next thing you'll come up with is a speed limit "just to make it fair for everyone”?

Outlandish!!!

-Buck-
Well I'm sorry that you feel that way. All I am saying is that you cannot get the same measurement every time you go to the pond. If you check the same boats on one day and then come back a different day you will find the the measurement to be different if the same conditions are not met. I have done the research, the math, the testing, and I have all of the documentation.

All I know that if everyone runs muffling devices and with a dB meter set back at 50' from the shore that there will be no problem meeting the 92dB limit and it will be the same for everyone.

Mark
 
I have done the research, the math, the testing, and I have all of the documentation.
I would like to see this Mark, could you send the info to me via e-mail please? Also with that could you send info of what dB meter you used, when it was last calibrated & how many different ponds you tested at. I'd like to add it to all the research info I'm currently reviewing.
 
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Toms on vacation so Im the barn boss.. Easy guys on the lingo.. Buck.. can I get you to edit your post.. I like the post just get rid of the bad words.

ROCK ON

Grimracer
 
I have done the research, the math, the testing, and I have all of the documentation.
I would like to see this Mark, could you send the info to me via e-mail please? Also with that could you send info of what dB meter you used, when it was last calibrated & how many different ponds you tested at. I'd like to add it to all the research info I'm currently reviewing.

Don, I am afraid that the board of IMPBA is like NERO. He played his "fiddle" while Rome burned to the ground. The rule canot be enforced reliably with the present methodology and with the existing instumentation. There an infinite number of variables and unlimited permentations of the variables. That is why the manufacture does not recommend the use of their dB meter in the outdoor setting. IT JUST DOES NOT WORK AS A TOOL OF ENFORCEMENT. Running a muffled tuned pipe and a muffler as a rule does achieve the objective of major noise reduction.

BTW the ear can only detect a sound energy change greater than 3 dB when tested in a $30,000 soundprof boothe and the test done by a masters degree audiologist. SOOOOOOOOOO if the ear cannot tell the difference between 92 dB and 95dB. What is the issue other than to make an issue. Dr. Gary Turner, Otolaryngologist and Head and Neck Surgeon sometimes referred to as Ear Nose and Throat.
 
It's as real as it gets. I have had a DB meter since the time Impba decided to impose the limit. There were measurements made that year at each of the 15 races we were at racing, of which I saw you at none. We were well under at all ponds with the rules in place, 95 DB at 50 feet. Then all the sudden Mr. Zuber feels that 25 feet is where we should be measuring from and the new rule of 92 at 25 is thrown out there. Namba uses 50 at 92, why does Impba have to be different again? We have tested at our pond with these new rules and were ok, but at jackson with different suroundings the levels were different, and the CD choose to use common sense and use the meter properly and no-one was DQed. We continued to test at different ponds with different pipes and mufflers and found a system that worked. A week before the 06 internats we test at the Evansville pond and are below the limit. Then at the same pond 1 week later at the Internats with the same setup, we are over. So Mr. World racer I must answer every post weather I know anything or not, I and we have done the background work to know the rule as it is written has issues and the meter that was selected works, but it has a + or - 2 DB tolerance that is not taken into account, it also says for indoor use and we use it outdoors. So until the board and president look at all the variables that have major affects on the readings, we are all being cheated. We build and race boats for a hobby, and are very concerned about the noise issue and have spent a butt load of money on pipes and mufflers to find something that works. I/we will not stand by and let a president and board of people who have not done the background legwork on this rule ruin my and many others hobby of choice without doing all I and we can to show and prove the rule has bugs that need ironing out before we lose allot of good racing members. So maybe you should stick to building scale boats and let those of us that race at many different sites keep getting the info we need to make this rule work fairly.




Bruce, Well put. I will be at the race. BTW Bruce, the human ear can detect a sound energy change no less than 3dB when tested in a sound proof booth with expertise of a masters degree audiologist doing the testing. SOOOOOOOOOOO there is no issue whether it is 95dB or 92 dB because we can't hear the difference. So where is the issue???????? The board and Mr. Zuber are making it an issue becasue they CAN and the unwillingness to listen to science and logic. Doc[ENT]
 
BTW the ear can only detect a sound energy change greater than 3 dB when tested in a $30,000 soundprof boothe and the test done by a masters degree audiologist. SOOOOOOOOOO if the ear cannot tell the difference between 92 dB and 95dB......
That's interesting as you don't indicate what the dB level is in this 3dB change you speak of. It's well known that it's very different at say 60dB than it is at 90. It is also a known fact that every 6 dB increase is a doubling of sound pressure, this also holds true for reductions in sound. EXAMPLE: 100 dB - 6 dB = 94 dB, which equals a 100% reduction in sound pressure. BTW- OSHA regulations to noise exposure limits drops from 8 hours to 6 hours with a 2dB change from 90 to 92 and by half to 4 hours at 95dB, just an example of the difference 2 or 3 dB makes at the higher dB levels we are talking about and working with. I'm not going to get dragged into this anymore with you guys but rather try to come up with options to what was voted in place by the MEMBERSHIP. I want things to work as much as anyone else but this continuing arguement of how a dB meter won't work is going nowhere, especially since many organizations that function outdoors already rely on dB measurements to guage their sound control so working examples are already in place. Like I said, the rule is not perfect but we can & will make it better. Rome was not built in a day ..............

http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.sh...&p_id=10625
 
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You know if people would read and quit flapping there lips they may learn something. All of this stuff that the new board members are trying to do has already been done or researched. Now we are bring Osha into this again. These standards are based on noise that is indoors unless you have a piece of equipment that is a very high noise level outside. Every industrial plant that I have been into has hearing protection indoors but not outside unless there is a turbine or jet engine setting outdoors running and therefore you will wear hearing protection when you are within so many feet of these units. But this is not osha that is doing this but the companys themselves. Also if you go and read the osha standards you will find the word "Otolaryngologist"

used many times in "Audiometric testing programs" that test the employees for hearing baseline. Now Dr. Gary Turner wrote a piece that was place in the Roostertail a couple of years ago called the "Nature of Sound". He did not make any of this stuff up but had it on file in is office because of his practice. Maybe some of you read it maybe some of you did not and there again maybe you did not know what you read. But I will show it to you again to refresh you memory.

SOUND

 

I have been asked by several individuals to write an article about sound. Recently there has much been said about the issue of sound. I am not an expert on the physics of sound but deal with subject daily in my practice as an OTOLARYNGOLOGIST AND HEAD AND NECK SURGEON, referred to as ENT.

 

Sound is measured in dB, which is a logarithmic value. We speak of the frequency in term of hertz[Hz]. When an audiogram is done it is usually performed in a sound proof booth and frequencies of 250htz to 4000 and sometimes 8000htz are tested. When the test is done the individual resounds to the test stimuli at various dB’s, the intent being to establish the slightest intensity that can be heard. This establishes the PURE TONE THRESHOLD. The PTAs the average of the 500,1000 and 2000 Hz and a PTT greater than 25db is considered abnormal. The problem is that noise induced hearing loss generally is seen in the higher frequencies. There the could be a 60 dB threshold for 4000 and 8000 Hz and a PTA of 15db. It is also well known that presbycusis which the term for nerve hearing loss of aging occurs in the higher frequencies.

 

Sound is a complicated entity. When we measure hearing we use a PURE TONE. Pure tones are not pleasing. A pure tone is a sine wave of compression and rarefaction of air molecules. An example of a pure tone is a 512 tuning fork. This is “middle C” on the piano, but is does sound like a piano. When a trumpet, flute,saxaphone and trombone play “middle C,512htz” that they sound differently. This is due to the “overtones,other small sine waves on top for the 512 sine wave that gives the quality and timbre that identifies the individual instruments.

 

The human ear consists of the outer ear, which consists of the pinna and the external auditory canal. The middle ear which consists of the eardrum and ossicles,malleous-hammer.incus-anvil, and stapes-stirrup. The inner which consist of the cochlea and the 8th cranial nerve. The cochlea is a transducer that converts sound vibratory mechanical energy to electrical energy and the nerve conducts to the hearing center in the brain. It is important to note that CHILDRENS EARS ARE MUCH MORE EFFICIENT IN THE CONDUCTION OF SOLUND TO THE COCHLEA THAN ADULTS. Children’s ossicles are not as stiff as adults and are much more susceptible to noise induced hearing loss.

 

When discussing hearing loss we speak of sensory-neural ,conductive and mixed hearing loss. SN deals primarily with loss of function of the cochlea the nerve or both. Conductive hearing loss is the reduced ability to get sound to the inner hearing mechanism. Wax build up,hole in the eardrum, fluid in the middle ear can produce this type of loss. Mixed represents a combination of both,ie, an elderly person with nerve loss who gets a stopped up ear after an airplane flight.

 

Sound in general is a wonderful thing Helen Keller was asked at one time which of her sense she would like to have back if possible and it was the ability to hear! The question is when is there TOO MUCH sound. In general if one has to shout to make someone hear you in a noisy environment there maybe too much sound. Too much sound is irritating. A screaming baby will raise a parent’s heart rate. The lack of sound is frightening as often occurs just before a tornado is about to hit and there are no birds chirping and no dogs barking, you better seek cover. It was vary strange for me at 13,000 ft and there was no sound just my heart beating in my ears at a plateau of untouched snow and blue sky.

 

The AUDIOLOGIST DESK REFERENCE pg. 670, has the OSHA 1983 guidelines which are used today.”In an 8hr period one can sustain 4hrs of CONTINOUS noise of 95db, 92 dB for 6.2 hrs. On pg. 683, the following typical dB readings were listed: Heavy traffic 80db, elevated train 80db, and a symphony orchestra 100db. A vary IMPORTANT question is whether sound and noise is additive? For example if two boats each produce 100db, then two running at the same time produce 200db? The answer is NO! In the AUDIOLOGIST DESK REFERENCE, page 687,”Sound sources combine their sound POWER[rather than pressure.” There is a MULTIPLIER rule 2x=3db,3.16x=5db,10x=11db. Therefore if a boat produces 90db, two similar boats would produce 93db.

In the same text on page 686”The amount of power[e.g.,sound intensity at a microphone]at various distance from the sound source will vary inversely with the square of the distance.” This occurs if there is no barrier such as trees, cars and etc. Refer to the figure 6-12 and the first paragraph, taken from the text THE NATURE OF SOUND. This basically states that at twice the radius from where the intensity is measured the intensity will be ¼ of the baseline measurement. Thus if a boat is measured at 50ft. and the dB level is 95db, it will be 27.5 dB.

 

MY OPINION

 

The following is my opinion based on the above information on some of the discussions that has recently surface with respect to ANOTHER RULE with respect to sound.

 

1. I think IMPBA should be concerned about the level of sound that the participants are subjected to. This is especially the case with young children. It should be ADVISED that children in the pits should wear hearing protection. Adults are not more likely to “break their hearing bones” than children. Also we do not exceed OSHA levels because the exposure is not continuos 95db for 4hrs. The hearing protection for children should be advised.

2. The proposed measuring technique is flawed since the distance at which the measurement is taken is not constant. Slight change in the distance of the measurement from the boat produces dramatic change in the dB level recorded.

3. The recommendation to advance from 95db to 92 dB is laudable, however the human ear can not reliably detect a three-dB change.

4. I do not believe a dB RULE WILL SAVE PONDS. Again based on the above physics of sound if a reading of the dB level in the yard of a nearby house where complaints have arisen is taken while boats are running even 6 boats at a time, there will be no measurable increase in dB level above the ambient levels. In fact we did such a test at our pond in B’ham and the results where as stated. The issue is that we can detect a SOUND or LACK of sound that is different from the ambient sounds. I can hear a person’s generator a block away but there is no increase in the dB level at my house. We will loose ponds where house have encroached on our running sites whether we have a dB rule or not

5. I think the present rule is quite adequate and has resulted in reduction of the level of sound at the race site and in the pits.

 

I hope this information is useful and informative.

Dr. Gary Turner

 

 

The Nature of Sound Intensity

 

 

Since intensity is the rate of energy flow per unit of area of surface receiving the flow, it follows that, as the distance from the sound source increases, the distribution of energy flow must necessarily decrease. The wave front of a spherical sound wave, as it advances, is a sphere of increasing area, 4 pr², where r is the radius (equal to the distance from the sound source). If the total quantity of energy at the sound source is P, the energy crossing a unit of area of surface would be P/4 pr². From this it is apparent that the intensity of a sound wave varies inversely as the square of the distance from the source, or I=1/d². A sound with an intensity, I, at a certain distance from the source will have one-fourth the intensity at twice the distance and one-sixteenth the intensity at four times the distance. This relationship, known as the inverse square law, is one of the fundamental laws of physics and is illustrated in figure 6-12.

 

A = area r = radius

 

 

Figure 6-12 Schematic illustration of the principle of the inverse square law.

Ideally sound intensity is inversely proportion to the square of the distance from the source.

 

Note: This information was quoted from the book The Nature of Sound pg. 419

So as you can see we have done the math and dotted to "I's" and crossed the "T's". And now they are going to try to reinvent the wheel.

Mark
 
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