Sure seems dead around here.

[Carl Van Houten]

Things must have gotten too "lively" on this thread... You okay down there Bill?

Get some engines on those boats and have them ready for SOWEGA this spring. There will be some fast boats there. Always a great place to see where you stack up.

 

[Wally Marsh]

OK folks dont want to derail the discussion but intend to contribute to it. Ive been playing with, and racing, B sport and mod tunnels for many years now, even gotten to the podium more than once. As most you guys in this conversation know I am not a tunnel designer or builder (did build my Villian S1 from Mikes Kit, still love that boat!) but rather depend on you that do, including Tommy, Grim Racer, Carl, and Kris. And as you all know I do spend the time testing testing testing the whole combination to get a particular hull/motor to its best performance, at least within my capabilities. I think there are many who just wont take the time to know their boat and optimize it, just want to buy their way to the podium, and most fail with that mind set while missing out on a lot of fun.

I am eternally grateful to all you (and many others) who have helped me along the way, and have in a BIG WAY allowed me to ENJOY this crazy hobby not just thrash around in disappointment.

Enough said, time for group hug LOL

The Wallster

 

[Tommy Lee]

Bill B.-not sure why you pulled out of this discussion but I understand you saying "try something different". That's how we all learn. I was just putting the question out there. You seem to think you have found something better but from the pictures you posted I see nothing different from what has been out there for years but if you like what you have that's great. Race it and see where you stack up. Mike-I have never seen the bottom of a VS-1 but if you are running the front ride pads (I hate the term stumble blocks) then I stand by what I said. The Leecraft was the FIRST PRODUCTION BOAT to use this concept. And this concept is what started everything with the so-called modern day Tunnel boat. Most all others-the Van Houten boats, HTB's, Vision's, Proglass and many other copies that may be out there were all taken directly from the Leecraft's. There have been changes made maybe good-maybe not but the original concept is still there. I keep hearing how much faster the boats are now but I think most of the gains have come from today's engines. Put a K&B on some of these hot new boats and let's see how fast they go. We all build around what is available for power and engines are great now. Power wasn't great back in the 80"s but it was all we had. I just wanted to make a point-I really don't care anymore. Getting too old to worry about it. I just hope the O.B' classes survive. They will always be my favorite.

 

[dave roach]

Ran the new Carl Van Houten 3.5 Taboo in Charleston this past weekend end in B-sport tunnel finished 2nd over all.What a great handling boat for stock and mod.The boat is very stable.

Thanks Carl for a great boat.

Dave

 

[Carl Van Houten]

Bill B.-not sure why you pulled out of this discussion but I understand you saying "try something different". That's how we all learn. I was just putting the question out there. You seem to think you have found something better but from the pictures you posted I see nothing different from what has been out there for years but if you like what you have that's great. Race it and see where you stack up. Mike-I have never seen the bottom of a VS-1 but if you are running the front ride pads (I hate the term stumble blocks) then I stand by what I said. The Leecraft was the FIRST PRODUCTION BOAT to use this concept. And this concept is what started everything with the so-called modern day Tunnel boat. Most all others-the Van Houten boats, HTB's, Vision's, Proglass and many other copies that may be out there were all taken directly from the Leecraft's. There have been changes made maybe good-maybe not but the original concept is still there. I keep hearing how much faster the boats are now but I think most of the gains have come from today's engines. Put a K&B on some of these hot new boats and let's see how fast they go. We all build around what is available for power and engines are great now. Power wasn't great back in the 80"s but it was all we had. I just wanted to make a point-I really don't care anymore. Getting too old to worry about it. I just hope the O.B' classes survive. They will always be my favorite.

Very true Tommy. The XT was the first modern day tunnel hull without question. I would argue with anyone who said anything different. Your contribution to Outboard Tunnel Hulls will carry long into the future of what ever comes to be after we are long gone.

Improvements have been made in tunnel hulls though just as they have been made in the rigger hydro classes. They still look like riggers with a tub and two sponsons and a turn fin but they sure do run a lot better than the old ones did so the improvements that these guys are making just like ours are more of a refinement of the basic model rather than a completely new concept. In our case the new refinements have to be made in order to handle the new power that is being made from the engines that we now are getting right out of the box.

I am just one one guy out here trying to make tunnels better, there are some other models that I have seen within the last year in the 7.5cc class that made me get off my lazy butt and get busy working on pushing some of my new ideas up and into the 7.5cc class. It's going to be a battle in SOWEGA next year and you are not going to stand a chance without a boat that can take advantage of the new power.

 

[Kris Flynn]

OK folks dont want to derail the discussion but intend to contribute to it. Ive been playing with, and racing, B sport and mod tunnels for many years now, even gotten to the podium more than once. As most you guys in this conversation know I am not a tunnel designer or builder (did build my Villian S1 from Mikes Kit, still love that boat!) but rather depend on you that do, including Tommy, Grim Racer, Carl, and Kris. And as you all know I do spend the time testing testing testing the whole combination to get a particular hull/motor to its best performance, at least within my capabilities. I think there are many who just wont take the time to know their boat and optimize it, just want to buy their way to the podium, and most fail with that mind set while missing out on a lot of fun.

I am eternally grateful to all you (and many others) who have helped me along the way, and have in a BIG WAY allowed me to ENJOY this crazy hobby not just thrash around in disappointment.

Enough said, time for group hug LOL

The Wallster

BOOM, very important statements in there Wally!

Taking time to KNOW YOUR BOAT and learn what happens when you do stuff to the setup!

Bill, I saw some nasty stuff happen on my SAW boat when it had stumble blocks...but it was more of a balance thing in the end (balance of air in that is). Boat porpoised like crazy over 100kph and would blow off...removed the blocks and BAM back to 120kph with minimal issues. But my oval M11 doing 120KPH did not show any signs of porpoise (with blocks)...so it is about the balance IMO.

Dave Moyle has a great running design over here which does not use Stumble blocks...you are just crazy to not use them (as we discussed previously lol)

 

[Carl Van Houten]

Ran the new Carl Van Houten 3.5 Taboo in Charleston this past weekend end in B-sport tunnel finished 2nd over all.What a great handling boat for stock and mod.The boat is very stable.

Thanks Carl for a great boat.

Dave

THANKS. Glad you like it Dave.

 

[Jerry Dunlap]

After something like 15 years of racing a VS1(either when it was sold by Mike Z. or the AquaCraft version) and winning a lot of races, I ran my own design WOF 20 Stock Tunnel this past season in District 8. I will be completely honest and admit I incorporated design concepts from a very successful 20 tunnel. Sometimes I managed to win heats against that "very successful 20 tunnel" and sometimes I lost heats to previously mention "20 tunnel." However, when all the heats were run I managed to win the District 8 20 Stock Championship with the boat I build.

BTW, the boat has front recovery pads.

JD

 

[Christian Lucas]

Hi Jerry,

very nice tunnel. What are front recovery pads ?

@Kriss,

where is your copyshop ? Can i have the data , i will print one for me.

Cool galerie !!

Happy Amps Christian

 

[Wally Marsh]

After something like 15 years of racing a VS1(either when it was sold by Mike Z. or the AquaCraft version) and winning a lot of races, I ran my own design WOF 20 Stock Tunnel this past season in District 8. I will be completely honest and admit I incorporated design concepts from a very successful 20 tunnel. Sometimes I managed to win heats against that "very successful 20 tunnel" and sometimes I lost heats to previously mention "20 tunnel." However, when all the heats were run I managed to win the District 8 20 Stock Championship with the boat I build.

BTW, the boat has front recovery pads.

JD

 

[Wally Marsh]

Jerry, that is also a really cool looking boat, a winner in both respects!

Wallster

 

[Carl Van Houten]

After something like 15 years of racing a VS1(either when it was sold by Mike Z. or the AquaCraft version) and winning a lot of races, I ran my own design WOF 20 Stock Tunnel this past season in District 8. I will be completely honest and admit I incorporated design concepts from a very successful 20 tunnel. Sometimes I managed to win heats against that "very successful 20 tunnel" and sometimes I lost heats to previously mention "20 tunnel." However, when all the heats were run I managed to win the District 8 20 Stock Championship with the boat I build.

BTW, the boat has front recovery pads.

JD

There must be some IW rule against just typing in the name of this very successful 20 tunnel.

Nice looking boat.

 

[LohringMiller]

I'm obviously a late comer to this discussion. As a former builder of Tommy's designs, I admit loving the boats. I still have an XT-120 that I plan to race as a P limited tunnel at my club. However, the power from first nitro engines and then electrics has steadily increased. The Xt-460 is easy to drive in the low 50 mph area but requires increasing skill as you get to 60 mph. I've watched some excellent drivers set two lap and heat race records with the boat, but Carl's newer designs starting with the Hornet handle the more powerful engines better. The Lynx was a real break through with high angle sponsons that deal with rough water better and still turn well. Darin Jordan's Lynx is one of the fastest heat race tunnels around.

The XT-460 is still a great hull and will win tunnel races in many events. However it doesn't dominate the larger tunnel classes like it once did. As an example the XT-460 won all the stock and modified tunnel classes in both the 7.5 and 11 cc displacements at the 2003 NAMBA Nationals. It was second in most of them as well. Leecraft also dominated the 3.5 cc tunnel classes there. My statement in 2006 is probably still true today:

"Over the years Leecraft has probably won more tunnel classes at the NAMBA Nationals than any other manufacturer."

Lohring Miller

 

[Grimracer]

Bill B.-not sure why you pulled out of this discussion but I understand you saying "try something different". That's how we all learn. I was just putting the question out there. You seem to think you have found something better but from the pictures you posted I see nothing different from what has been out there for years but if you like what you have that's great. Race it and see where you stack up. Mike-I have never seen the bottom of a VS-1 but if you are running the front ride pads (I hate the term stumble blocks) then I stand by what I said. The Leecraft was the FIRST PRODUCTION BOAT to use this concept. And this concept is what started everything with the so-called modern day Tunnel boat. Most all others-the Van Houten boats, HTB's, Vision's, Proglass and many other copies that may be out there were all taken directly from the Leecraft's. There have been changes made maybe good-maybe not but the original concept is still there. I keep hearing how much faster the boats are now but I think most of the gains have come from today's engines. Put a K&B on some of these hot new boats and let's see how fast they go. We all build around what is available for power and engines are great now. Power wasn't great back in the 80"s but it was all we had. I just wanted to make a point-I really don't care anymore. Getting too old to worry about it. I just hope the O.B' classes survive. They will always be my favorite.

My confusion.. when you stated XT460 i read that as black and white.. your stating ANY tunnel boat. (I did not get that.. sorry)

We move on!

Grim

 

[Jerry Dunlap]

Hi Jerry,

very nice tunnel. What are front recovery pads ?

@Kriss,

where is your copyshop ? Can i have the data , i will print one for me.

Cool galerie !!

Happy Amps Christian

The term "stumble blocks" is sometimes used to describe the wedges(front recovery pads) in the front of our model tunnel boats to prevent them from "hooking out" during a turn. They were developed by Rod Geraghty when he was still living out here in Western Washington.

JD

 

[Grimracer]

Bill B.-not sure why you pulled out of this discussion but I understand you saying "try something different". That's how we all learn. I was just putting the question out there. You seem to think you have found something better but from the pictures you posted I see nothing different from what has been out there for years but if you like what you have that's great. Race it and see where you stack up. Mike-I have never seen the bottom of a VS-1 but if you are running the front ride pads (I hate the term stumble blocks) then I stand by what I said. The Leecraft was the FIRST PRODUCTION BOAT to use this concept. And this concept is what started everything with the so-called modern day Tunnel boat. Most all others-the Van Houten boats, HTB's, Vision's, Proglass and many other copies that may be out there were all taken directly from the Leecraft's. There have been changes made maybe good-maybe not but the original concept is still there. I keep hearing how much faster the boats are now but I think most of the gains have come from today's engines. Put a K&B on some of these hot new boats and let's see how fast they go. We all build around what is available for power and engines are great now. Power wasn't great back in the 80"s but it was all we had. I just wanted to make a point-I really don't care anymore. Getting too old to worry about it. I just hope the O.B' classes survive. They will always be my favorite.

Then the question begs.. what IS.. the original concept?

Grim

 

[Bill Britton]

I would like to clarify this before it goes any further. In my opinion (for what its worth) I don't like stumble pads. To me they dirty the air under the tunnel. That's not to say that I don't use them on my boats. Most of them do have them. I have experimented with different sponson shapes and some have exhibited excellent handling and turning without them. It can be done. I like to keep things simple and stumble pads to me are just band-aids to a design flaw. F1 tunnels don't use them (although they have other methods) so why are we stuck on them. It was just my opinion people. Nothing more.

I didn't bring this up because I have some new or secret formula. I have nothing of the sort. The posts I removed where just a "wish list" of things I thought could be changed or modified to make tunnels run better. I was talking off the top of my head and just voicing my opinion. To get slammed for doing that really just turned me off. Tommy, you seem like a really nice guy but your post just seemed sarcastic and negative towards me. Most on here seem to view my opinion or comments as from the junior class anyway. I feel like a lot of people here have fairly swollen heads, and if anyone tries to think outside the box or come up with something that is not mainstream, or they didn't think of it first, you get pounced on.

The original intent of this thread was to comment on the fact that it seemed quiet in the outboard forum and not many people posting lately. Somehow, it took a hard swerve to the left.

-Bill

 

[Carl Van Houten]

I would like to clarify this before it goes any further. In my opinion (for what its worth) I don't like stumble pads. To me they dirty the air under the tunnel. That's not to say that I don't use them on my boats. Most of them do have them. I have experimented with different sponson shapes and some have exhibited excellent handling and turning without them. It can be done. I like to keep things simple and stumble pads to me are just band-aids to a design flaw. F1 tunnels don't use them (although they have other methods) so why are we stuck on them. It was just my opinion people. Nothing more.

I didn't bring this up because I have some new or secret formula. I have nothing of the sort. The posts I removed where just a "wish list" of things I thought could be changed or modified to make tunnels run better. I was talking off the top of my head and just voicing my opinion. To get slammed for doing that really just turned me off. Tommy, you seem like a really nice guy but your post just seemed sarcastic and negative towards me. Most on here seem to view my opinion or comments as from the junior class anyway. I feel like a lot of people here have fairly swollen heads, and if anyone tries to think outside the box or come up with something that is not mainstream, or they didn't think of it first, you get pounced on.

The original intent of this thread was to comment on the fact that it seemed quiet in the outboard forum and not many people posting lately. Somehow, it took a hard swerve to the left.

-Bill

Bill, Keep building your boats and coming up with new stuff to try no matter what. We don't have enough tunnel designers to loose as it is so just hang in there and get your ideas out there. They are sleek looking boats for sure.

 

[Tommy Lee]

Bill B.-sorry you feel that way. I was not trying to be sarcastic or negative. I was just being honest. The pictures you posted looked to me like a lot of boats that are out there. You chose not to show the bottom and that told me a lot. I feel confident that it looks like most other boats and that leads back to my post that stated all successful boats out there today are descendants of the Leecraft Boats but 30+ years later things will change. I get that. You may not like the front ride pads but try to make a turn around a legal IMPBA or NAMBA course without them and see what happens. A few drivers may be good enough to do this but not any I know. If you don't like them-take em off and good luck to you. As to your comments about the F-1 boats, they do not make sweeping radius turns. They make mostly 1-or 2- bouy turns. However, they do have the advantage of power trim and a good driver can make a decent wide turn with the correct set-up. Obviously R/C boats don't have the ability to make radius turns without some mechanical advantage and this is where the FRP's come into play. When designing and testing the XT-460 I realized the boat was very easy to drive with the FRP's and that is one thing that made it so popular. But to get back on topic I just wanted you to explain what you had found that was so wrong with tunnel boat design. That's all- just your opinion. Just remember-there are no secrets in tunnel boat design.

 

[Bill Britton]

The pictures you posted looked to me like a lot of boats that are out there. You chose not to show the bottom and that told me a lot. I feel confident that it looks like most other boats and that leads back to my post that stated all successful boats out there today are descendants of the Leecraft Boats...

See, now I'm pissed.

You couldn't be further from the truth Tommy. Ain't no Leecraft here. I don't copy anyone's boats. I go my own way... If anyone is to thank for where I'm at it's JD.

I told you, I like simplicity.



Got giving away my secrets. Do your own homework...

You may not like the front ride pads but try to make a turn around a legal IMPBA or NAMBA course without them and see what happens. A few drivers may be good enough to do this but not any I know.

Oh, it turns just fine. Here's a video of one of my designs from just last year on a short and narrow course. No stumble pads here either. What's the saying about teaching an old dog new tricks? I've been building tunnel boats without stumble pads for ten years. Where have you been?...

https://youtu.be/CPb-deD2UeQ

This boat is ten years old. I don't even know who owns it anymore. I think I originally sold it to Tim Dean (RIP). None of these had stumble pads either. They turned like a 1/10 scale carpet car. You could carve lane one with precision.



John Otto raced one of my boats with no stumble pads for about two years. He won the World Tunnel Championships one year beating Zaborowski in a run off with it. I think Shane Adderly won the Tunnel Champs one year with one of my boats as well. No stumble pads in that one either. He absolutely loved the way that boat handled and turned. After the race while everyone else was packing up he was still out running it because he loved it so much.

I think I know what I'm doing and what I'm talking about thank you very much, but I appreciate the advice.

PS* Ignore the over spray on the bottom. I have yet to clean it up.

PSS* From now on no one is getting any of my boats that don't need stumble pads. You figure it out for yourself. Go back to school and do your own homework. Like I said, Stumble pads are a band-aid for poorly designed sponsons.